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1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

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RyanSilas
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1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #1 by RyanSilas » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:35 pm

I bought a fox mustang back in the summer and so far i love it. I decided that if i keep the car when i get a new engine for my galaxie then im going to turn it into a road course car. I have loved the inline 6s ever since my grandfather gave me his 69' F350. I have a good idea of what i want, now i just need specifics. First off, i am building a street legal road course car, im not doing circle track or drag racing. My first question is will the 240 or 300 be better for what im wanting to do. I figured the 240 would be better for road course since it has a shorter stroke which would allow it to turn up faster (Correct me if im wrong). I want to go with feul injection with a turbo setup. I plan on buying an engine after i get tuition paid for next semester so i want to get a good idea of what im gonna be looking at. Thanks for any and all advice. I'm really excited about this project.

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #2 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:10 pm

I can't think of a less suitable engine with which to build a Mustang road racer.



That is why I love the idea so much. Its just crazy enough to work.
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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #3 by bmbm40 » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:45 pm

The 240/300 is one of the best engines on the planet. However if you are considering the 240 why not look at the 250 from the small block six family. It is physically smaller and lighter than the 240 and power is comparable but it does have the attached log which can be fixed with the CI aluminum head. And be advised that I generally recommend the 250 to pretty much everyone.
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #4 by herosandwich » Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:56 pm

as someone who's spend a long time tearing parts out of/installing parts into the engine bay of a late fox mustang, you're nucking futz to try to shoehorn a big six into that. the lima hardly fits lengthwise, you'd have to move the whole shebang back several inches, new motormounts on the kmember, reinforce the K, new trans mount, new trans tunnel, figure out seats, and it would STILL handle like a diabetic cow being that nose heavy.

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #5 by RyanSilas » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:09 pm

I did some measurements earlier and it's gonna be a really tight squeeze, but I can pull it off. I want the big six because of it's availablility. Plus efi systems are plentiful as well (if there are efi systems for the smal sixes then let me know. That will be a big game changer.) Plus it has the small block bolt pattern which openes up the t5 and t56 trannys. I'm sure there are adapters for the transmissions but if the small six efi is out there please let me know, it will be news to me lol.

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #6 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:11 pm

OK. So if I was stuck on a desert island and all I had was a Fox Mustang and a 240 six (and a sumptuously equipped fab shop) and the upcoming Road Racing Championships Of The Universe was taking place in a couple of months here is what I'd do to prepare for it:

Place the engine (and driver) as far back in the chassis as possible to even out the weight distribution.
Lay the engine over at about a 40 degree angle to get the CG as low as possible and the intake runners as straight as possible. This would mean sliding the crank/driveshaft/rear pinion CL to the right about eight inches.
Use a dry sump lube system because you'd never be able to keep that thing from G-loading oil starvation otherwise.
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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #7 by 80broncoman » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:18 am

I've seen straight sixes do well in oval track cars, but only when the racers finds a class where they can put the first spark plug as far back as the center of the front wheels.
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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #8 by bmbm40 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:03 pm

The nice thing about the 250 is that is a sbf bh pattern so the T5 bolts up. There are some who have efi'd the 200 and 250 from home built TB to store bought on here and classicbroncos.com.
66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 2v, power brakes, rear LS, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #9 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:11 pm

Ford built some mid-eighties Mustangs w/ a 250 / manual trans. A co-worker had one. Nice package
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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #10 by RyanSilas » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:29 pm

I didnt realize that the 250 used the small block pattern, thats a big plus. However i did some research and other than getting some aussie parts, there isnt much in the way of EFI for this engine. Any ideas on this? I would rather not turn a log intake into a MPFI intake. Seems pointless without runners.

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #11 by CoupeBoy » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:01 pm

I cannot confirm nor deny the effectiveness of said engine in your car.
But I will give you this little nugget of fun.

He is working on a 1980 Mustang (same platform)
Foxbody with Turbo 300
1968 Mustang Daily Driver Rebuild (on hold for the Season 3/1/2015)
1963.5 Falcon Convertible Build (just getting started 3/15/2015)
Case 1830 Skidsteer FordSix Repower Thread (started 4/4/2015)
1970 170/C4
1967 200/C4
1965 240/bellhousing/flywheel/clutch/3.03 bell pattern
1975 250/flexplate
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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #12 by motzingg » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:55 pm

RyanSilas wrote:I didnt realize that the 250 used the small block pattern, thats a big plus. However i did some research and other than getting some aussie parts, there isnt much in the way of EFI for this engine. Any ideas on this? I would rather not turn a log intake into a MPFI intake. Seems pointless without runners.


a few guys on the 'small six' forum have milled off runners and fabricated manifolds, also the 'classic inlines' u-flow and aussie cross flow heads are options that get you to MPFI quicker.

The chevy TBI running megasquirt will get you there, too.

Hard to say which is the shortest path. Either engine will probably get you into the 300 hp range with similar mods, its just that the 300/240 gets you the long runner manifold (you'd have to cut a hole in your hood to use it) at the cost of more fabrication to fit it (crossmember, motor mounts, etc) and higher weight... where as the 250 is lighter and bolts right in, but would take more legwork to overcome the intake obstacle. Also if you plan on turbocharging, some of the negatives of the log manifold go away as you can crank up the boost to overcome the lack of flow, to a certain extent.

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #13 by MechRick » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:34 am

Think of all the different engines installed from the factory in Mustangs since 1979. It got the 2.3L Lima, the 2.3L Lima turbo (the first performance engine in the Fox body, believe it or not), the 2.8L Cologne V6, the 302 V8, the 255 V8, the 5.8L in the Cobra R, the 250 straight six (supposedly because of a 2.8L shortage), the 3.8L, the 4.6L 2V in the '96-newer cars, the 4.6L 32 valve in the Cobras, the 5.4L 32 valve in the 2000 Cobra R, and the 4.0L SOHC in the '05-newer cars. Whew. Only thing missing is a diesel.

Wait. The Fox body-based Continental got a BMW diesel for a few years. I'm wrong.

Big six in a 'Stang? Why not? I had a friend in high school that stuffed a 250 in a Pinto.

I would put one in my Bronco II if I could keep the A/C condenser.
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EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #14 by J.R. » Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:30 am

A 250 would be a bolt-in & save 145-160 lbs (off the FRONT end 8) ) as compared to the 240/300. With a CI alloy head, injection, warmed-up cam & a pair of small turbos, it would likely spool up fairly quickly, yet have massive torque coming out of a corner.

OTOH if a boneyard tour could turn up a rolled-over F150 with Eco-Boost V6... mated to a late Mustang's 6-speed, that would put the engine weight about the same as a 250" six & yet have less weight hanging over the front wheels, for even more balanced road race handling.

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #15 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:14 am

I'm having a hard time seeing how a 250 could be that much lighter than a 240, even with the 250 aluminum head. A general rule is to figure 1 pound of additional chassis weight for every 2 pounds of additional engine weight so that would mean the engine would be at least 100 pounds heavier. With headers and an aluminum intake to keep things fair and even I don't see it. Please explain.
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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #16 by motzingg » Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:28 pm

hmm the weight comment was a hunch based on the overall dimensions being smaller, but upon further research the internet doesn't give a reputable weight for the ford big six

the number '385' shows up on wikipedia for the small six, but that appears to be copied from some other websites that list it as a weight for a small six 'without aussie aluminum head'

"Ford 170-250 L6 385 (except Australian w/aluminum head)"

you could maybe plan on dropping 50 lbs switching to aluminum head, but the bigger intake might put 20 lbs back on there.

this website says 570 or 600 for the big six http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/ford/185-300ci-inline-six-2.html
"250 ft-lb @ 1600 RPM is only 76 hp. The engine is designed to produce around 150 hp at 3800. At typical prop speeds of about 2700 I wouldn't expect a lot beyond 110 hp or so. At 600 lbs, that's a very poor hp-to-weight ratio."

having removed and moved it around, i'd say 500+ pretty conservatively. most folks are 'weighing in' :rolflmao: with guesses around the 500-600 lb mark. I'd buy 600 fully dressed with accessory drive in late model truck.


Sooo 150-200 lb weight advantage for the small six, plus shorter length and height, keeping CG lower and further back...

maybe if you fabbed a custom dry sump oil pan and could get it down real low, otherwise its going to be a front/top heavy beast.

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #17 by SuperMag » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:20 pm

For some reason, 540# w/o flywheel sticks in my mind for the pre-87 Big 6.

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #18 by CoupeBoy » Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:51 pm

Do you guys want me to weigh a couple blocks? I've got shortblocks for both a 300 and a 250 sitting on my shop floor.. shouldn't be too hard to find a scale.
1968 Mustang Daily Driver Rebuild (on hold for the Season 3/1/2015)
1963.5 Falcon Convertible Build (just getting started 3/15/2015)
Case 1830 Skidsteer FordSix Repower Thread (started 4/4/2015)
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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #19 by MechRick » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:23 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I'm having a hard time seeing how a 250 could be that much lighter than a 240


I once helped a friend swap a 5.0 for a 200 in a '66 Coupe. The front bumper gained at least an inch of ride height. Even if the 250 is lighter, the weight is in the wrong place.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
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Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #20 by RyanSilas » Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:35 pm

Im glad ive really got everyone thinking here. I thought about doing an ecoboost mustang, but the aftermarket dosnt seem to be very broad at all other than tuning. I think i am going to stick with the 250 and try to get my hands on an aussie crossflow head. I'm not good with fab work, but i am good at drawing. Plus my best friend is a drafting engineer so mabey i can get some crazy ideas together and let her make sense of it all. I like the way the 300 runners wrap up over the engine, so i may try to combine them with the crossflow head to place the throttle body and the turbos on the same side for less plumbing. Im new to a lot of things on this project so i really appreciate the input. I want this project to be different and im willing to try some crazy ideas to make it work.

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #21 by CNC-Dude » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:26 pm

Since you mentioned it, I have an extra crossflow head I don't have any plans for at the moment.
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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #22 by xctasy » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:39 am

Thin wall US Ford engines are very light. The Big Six in carbed form is one of the lightweights.

That 300 4.9 Big Six is around 490 pounds dressed in 1-bbl form with cast iron crank, as its a side plate engine, and quite trim, despite its 9.8" deck and 4.48" bore spacings.

The weight of Aussie Iron engines from the Geelong plant was always way more than US or Canuk iron ones, the Aussie 351C 2V with air con and power steering was 719 pounds dressed, while the dressed Boss 351 without either was 568 pounds, 17 pounds heavier than the 351W 4V. On a V8, comparing an alloy intake manifold to an iron one helps take off a lot of extra weight. Adding a modern Showa cast alloy intake adds a lot of pounds over a 1, 2 or 4-bbl carb manifold.

The US 250, if its stripped, weighs very little extra on the 200, some say just 20 pounds heavier than the 200, which is 365 to 385 pounds, depending on the accessories.

I've seen the 250 quoted as 450 pounds elseware in an early 70's Popular Mechanics, but that doesn't stack up with some of the Aussie figures I list below.

A stock 7.803" low deck 1963-1965 narrow block 200 with an alloy head sits at about 337 pounds all up. The Aussie wide block modification in 1966 added 20 pounds

A tall 9.38" 250/4.1 1976 onwards Cross flow Aussie engine with an alloy head sits at about 481 pounds dressed, or 531 pounds with iron head, and 538 pounds as an EFI alloy head.

Before that block got widened to accomodate the canted valve X-flow in 1976, all tall deck 1971-1976 200 and 250's were just 410 pounds dressed.

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc5 ... ochure.jpg

That extra 1 1/2" of width, and extra 1-2/3" of engine deck height makes an alloy head Cross flow an extra 144 pounds heavier than the lightest possible 200 engine.

A 1968 Windsor 302 is 470 pounds dressed to run without EFI, or 562 pounds with A/C, power steering, and EFI. The 1969 351 W 4v was 531 pounds, same weight as a 1996 to 2012 ohc 4.0 liter Cologne V6, and the early iron 4.6 Modular Romeo SOHC.
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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #23 by J.R. » Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:56 am

RyanSilas wrote:Im glad ive really got everyone thinking here. I thought about doing an ecoboost mustang, but the aftermarket dosnt seem to be very broad at all other than tuning...


Maybe a reason the aftermarket hasn't yet offered much for Ford's 3.5L Ecoboost is the bone stock specs in a F150: 365 HP @ 5,000rpm, 420 Lb/Ft @ 2,500rpm, 417 Lbs weight (and about 21" long). What would it actually take to get a taller & longer 240" BB6 engine (weighing in @ 525-550 Lbs) up to the same performance levels, especially given the wide RPM-range of the Ecoboost's serious torque production?

But then, challenges frequently start with: "Bet you can't... "! Be safe. Have fun.

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #24 by First Fox » Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:01 am

RyanSilas wrote:...I think i am going to stick with the 250 and try to get my hands on an aussie crossflow head. I'm not good with fab work...


If you are admittedly not good at fab work, you are probably biting off more than you can chew. The Xflow head physically bolts to a US 200/250 but that's about it. There is a lot to be done to make it work and to my knowledge there MAY BE one or two guys here that have actually been successful at the conversion. Not to discourage you at all, but that is a pretty major undertaking. I would personally live to try it but custom parts and the cost of the head itself turned me off.

Even a US 250 is not a direct bolt in for a foxbody, but it would definitely be easier to fit. If you have a 4 cyl or V8 car, the k member will need to be changed to a I6 unit. Not that big of a deal, and technically still a bolt on.

The problem with the 250/foxbody is the oil pan. There was never a 250 offered in any foxbody and a custom pan is required. Again not a deal breaker and still a ton easier than trying to fit the 240.

Now a 200 on the other hand... An aluminum headed 200 would not give up much power compared to the 250 and while a T5 will bolt directly to 250/300, it will also fit the 200 with the proper adapter/bellhousing which are easily available. A 200 will do away with any oil pan fabrication and will truly be a bolt in. I have a turbo 200 foxbody and it was a piece of cake to turbocharge it and after seeing pics of a 250 in a fox, I would say the high mount 200 is actually easier to plumb the turbocharger due to starter location. Just food for thought. :beer:
Last edited by First Fox on Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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1965 Thunderbird. 390/Auto.
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1981 F-100. 300/4 speed OD. I use this primarily to haul my cars home after I modify them and they break.
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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #25 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:04 am

Rather than design your own long runner intake why not just obtain the factory parts, like these I sold recently.

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #26 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:12 am

First Fox wrote:... There was never a 250 offered in any foxbody and a custom pan is required. Again not a deal breaker and still a ton easier than trying to fit the 240...


I stand corrected. My friend's 250 Mustang was an earlier vintage.
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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #27 by MechRick » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:00 pm

First Fox wrote:There was never a 250 offered in any foxbody and a custom pan is required.


THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I stand corrected. My friend's 250 Mustang was an earlier vintage.


So was it the 200 instead of the 250 in the early Fox? I remember straight six Mustangs. Assumed they were 250's.

And the oil pan rail changed on the 250? Really?
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #28 by bubba22349 » Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:14 pm

Yes 200 sixes were only offered a few years in the early fox chassis the 250 was not. The 250's share almost nothing with the 200's except for the heads. You can use the 250 oil pan rails cut and weld on the 200 Fox type sump and pickup tube to do the 250 swap. The weight of a 250 is almost the same as a 5.0 V8. Good luck on the build. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: 1988 Mustang Big 6 Swap

Post #29 by motzingg » Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:15 pm

J.R. wrote:
RyanSilas wrote:Im glad ive really got everyone thinking here. I thought about doing an ecoboost mustang, but the aftermarket dosnt seem to be very broad at all other than tuning...


Maybe a reason the aftermarket hasn't yet offered much for Ford's 3.5L Ecoboost is the bone stock specs in a F150: 365 HP @ 5,000rpm, 420 Lb/Ft @ 2,500rpm, 417 Lbs weight (and about 21" long).


HA! yeah this is exactly what i was thinking, a friend of mine claims 380 hp and 450 ft-lbs out of his dyno tuned F150 with only a downpipe, exhaust, and larger intercooler/plumbing.

You could probably buy a late model wrecked 150 and swap the engine in for a small fraction of what it would cost to get a big six to those numbers.

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