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Started on headers and efi intake today!

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clintonvillian
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Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #1 by clintonvillian » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:26 pm

Started with a cheap set of dynomax headers. Ripped the 5/16" flanges off, and will weld these to my new flanges that were cut from 3/8". That way they will match the thickness of the intake flanges.

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Next up was starting on the intake. I had to add some material to the runners to make them long enough to reach through the headers. Got the injector bungs fitted, the tip will be just at the edge of the tope plate. They are laid back on roughly a 30* angle.

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I have decided to just set this up for a throttle body for now. I will mount the S/C above the intake at some point, feed out the bottom of it to the I/C, and then back into this intake which I will make a "bonnet" for that bolts to the current throttle body flange.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #2 by deere114 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:09 pm

Looking forward to seeing how the intake turns out. Keep us posted!

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #3 by CoupeBoy » Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:23 pm

I know you got freshly cut flanges in the mail a while back...
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Where's my update? :hmmm:
1968 Mustang Daily Driver Rebuild (on hold for the Season 3/1/2015)
1963.5 Falcon Convertible Build (just getting started 3/15/2015)
Case 1830 Skidsteer FordSix Repower Thread (started 4/4/2015)
1970 170/C4
1967 200/C4
1965 240/bellhousing/flywheel/clutch/3.03 bell pattern
1975 250/flexplate
1975 300/flywheel

clintonvillian
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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #4 by clintonvillian » Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:55 pm

Little work on the headers done. It is always one step forward and two steps back.......... They are in place, but they wont clear the Clifford intake. So I have to do some bending... I would beware of DYNOMAX headers, I have had several clearance issues with this set.

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Still have to weld in the back sides and grind them down. But these things fit really nice compared to the POS dynomax flanges.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #5 by bubba22349 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:59 pm

:beer: Those are beauties! :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #6 by Dr Jay » Sun Jan 04, 2015 12:25 am

WOW! Thick plates and real welding skill. Very Nice.
Blessings,
Dr Jay

1978 F100 Shortie, Lowered front and rear, 300 .030 over, 300 carb head, Clifford, Holley 390
268 Comp Cam, Cloyes, Fuel Inj. exhaust manifolds, MSD 6A, TOD, 9"

clintonvillian
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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #7 by clintonvillian » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:15 pm

A little closer on the EFI intake. Got the injector bungs welded in today after some guidance on placement from PMULLER. The tip will be just at the edge of the intake.

The welds were a little fat for my liking so I dressed them down some. I may dress down the header welds as well, haven't decided.

Do you guys know of an epoxy that could be used to smooth the intake welds out and blend everything in prior to painting. Nothing pops into my mind that will handle the heat from the head, but then again the injectors are plastic so.....

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67Straightsix
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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #8 by 67Straightsix » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:32 pm

Looking good :thumbup: Really like the way the flanges match up. can't wait to see the completed intake.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #9 by pmuller9 » Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:21 am

In this picture it looks like part of the rubber "O" ring is showing?

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #10 by CNC-Dude » Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:44 am

Yeah, I think the bungs need to be a little longer.
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clintonvillian
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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #11 by clintonvillian » Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:12 am

Those are bungs from Ross Machining. I cut them off just at the edge of where the diameter necks down, I will have to measure the change in diameter, but it is very little (just enough to catch the outer edge of the o-ring). You can see the O-Ring, all the way around the injector.

Is that an issue? Keep in mind the tips, nor the o-ring protrude into the runners AND OUTER DIAMETER OF THE RING IS FULLY SEATED, won't be any blow by.

If it is, I will have to order another set of bungs and start over. Regardless of the length you will still the O-Ring.......it would just be further up from the runner.

I was using this as a guide. http://www.sdsefi.com/techrail.htm

I guess if you guys feel the need moved up some, I could cut 1/8" or so spacers to move the injectors up some while still leaving the O-Ring seated in the original bungs.
Last edited by clintonvillian on Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #12 by clintonvillian » Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:49 am

Another question, do you fellas think the 39/42lb bosch injectors are big enough for the boosted setup?

Based on your experience.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #13 by pmuller9 » Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:08 pm

clintonvillian wrote:Those are bungs from Ross Machining. I cut them off just at the edge of where the diameter necks down, I will have to measure the change in diameter, but it is very little (just enough to catch the outer edge of the o-ring). You can see the O-Ring, all the way around the injector.

Is that an issue? Keep in mind the tips, nor the o-ring protrude into the runners AND OUTER DIAMETER OF THE RING IS FULLY SEATED, won't be any blow by.

If it is, I will have to order another set of bungs and start over. Regardless of the length you will still the O-Ring.......it would just be further up from the runner.

I was using this as a guide. http://www.sdsefi.com/techrail.htm

I guess if you guys feel the need moved up some, I could cut 1/8" or so spacers to move the injectors up some while still leaving the O-Ring seated in the original bungs.


You really want the channel in the injector that holds the "O" ring completely covered by the bung so the "O" ring cannot bulge out.
Between manifold vacuum and boost strange things can happen.

A spacer to move the injectors up would be an easy fix.

Rather than moving the injectors up could you install a thin wall sleeve?
The bottom of the sleeve will be cut straight and give you full coverage around the "O" ring.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #14 by CNC-Dude » Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:21 pm

My concern would be a vacuum leak. You might not expect an injector to be the source of one and lead you on a long search somewhere else overlooking that as the cause.
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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #15 by pmuller9 » Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:51 pm

clintonvillian wrote:Another question, do you fellas think the 39/42lb bosch injectors are big enough for the boosted setup?

Based on your experience.


Figuring a BSFC of 0.6 for supercharging and a 80% max duty cycle, a 42 lb injector will support up to 336 HP.

I'm thinking closer to 50lbs for 400 hp.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #16 by clintonvillian » Mon Jan 05, 2015 3:58 pm

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Here is an image of them, you can see the ring in them. So as tight as they are, I don't think there will be an issue with pressure, or blowby. I could be wrong. As long as there is not a heat issue, I will take my chances, and address it later. Spacer should handle it, but again pulling the o-ring up into the bung will decrease the surface area that is in contact with it (because you are moving it away from the lip). It looks to me like it would be better to have it fully seated against that lip (which is what I think you were getting at with the sleeve.

I had figured 440 hp, thats .6bsfc, 50psi fuel pressure 44lbs at the injector, at 100 percent. I think I will stick with these and then replace if I see it leaning out. If I get addicted to the boost and start pushing over the 10psi it could become an issue.

Running the matchbot turbo calc, at 4500rpms with 10psi I am at 395hp......so we will see. I have guys in the 4.6/5.0 claiming 600+ hp on their 39lb injectors with a variable pressure regulator. Anyhow, we will see how it goes.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #17 by bubba22349 » Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:19 pm

X3 I also think that if you had the injector bungs sitting up another 1/8 to 1/4 inch then the O ring seat would be intact and completely seal all around. Good luck on your build :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #18 by clintonvillian » Mon Jan 05, 2015 5:49 pm

Well #$@#%@#$%#$^*^&!!!!!!!!!!! I guess I get to eat some crow. You guys had me worried, so as soon as I got off of work and walked in the garage I checked them.

And......I guess I get to redo them. I spent several hours cutting them and making sure that I had left the ridge/lip in them (It was barely there, but it was there). Somewhere between cutting them and cleaning things up after welding I managed to remove that lip. When I push the injector down snug it bulges through in that spot.

So now what? spacer? I can pull it up maybe .100-.125" max with a spacer. Or I cut it all off and start over (my ocd may win over and I go this route) that's back tracking about 6 hours though.

I spent HOURS hand filing them flat to get them perfect, and then screwed it up in then end. I would have argued with you for hours that the ridge was there.

I had 9 days off through Christmas and spent all of it recovering from the flu (of which I had a vaccine for that didn't work).......I blaming it on a foggy brain.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #19 by CNC-Dude » Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:07 pm

Since you already have them fully welded in place, I think a spacer would be an alternative at this point to salvage this without a lot of grinding and rewelding as the other flip of the coin.

It's also a good idea to just tack weld everything first until you get it all fitted up because its easier to go back and make changes if you need to without a lot of effort.
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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #20 by clintonvillian » Mon Jan 05, 2015 6:47 pm

I tacked everything first. It is only an issue on cylinders 2 and 3. When you push the injectors in, you can feel them "pop" into place and see the bulge.

I know exactly when/what I did. After I had them welded in, when I was cleaning up the welds, and splatter, I hit the inner edges on all of them with the die grinder, and I just got too much of the lips on those.

Regardless, good catch on your part.

If I cut some spacers, will they work on the 50 and 60 lb injectors too? Are the bodies physically the same on them???

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #21 by pmuller9 » Mon Jan 05, 2015 11:28 pm

We never use the lip.
If you want to keep the injector in the same position you could drill out the bung enough to press in a thin sleeve.

Also an injector should not be pushed beyond an 80% duty cycle.
Please use a larger injector something closer to 50.

Within the same brand the injector body sizes are all the same and most aftermarket use the Bosch style.
Should be a 16 mm or .630" bung bore size.
What brand injector do you have now?

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #22 by clintonvillian » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:54 am

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These are the bosch 39lb injectors I have, they are 14mm, bore is .535 on the bungs.

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Here are the bosch 60lb 14mm injectors used on most fords. If you look at the red arrows I have marked, they appear to be shorter from the bottom of the oring to the shoulder which would help pull the oring up in the hole. I will go to 60lbs when needed, I just have the 39's available in my hands to mock up with, and until the forced induction takes place they will be fine.

Now........you bring up an interesting fact with the 16mm. Rather than a sleeve I could weld the edges up and then rebore them. Do you have any links to the 16mm injectors you recommend, because all of the ford stuff I am used to is 14mm at .535.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #23 by pmuller9 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:49 am

Comment Later
Last edited by pmuller9 on Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #24 by motzingg » Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:17 am

it would require a trip to a machine shop and therefore an extra step/$$ but if it were me, i'd weld in some mild steel solid rounds and have them machined true to a single plane/axis in place after welding up the entire manifold.

shouldn't be a terribly hard operation, face all 6 with an end mill and drill the centers, then ream the bores, probably throw a chamfer in there so the o-rings don't snag. if you dont care about cleaning up the OD (you could do it with a boring head flipped around) it would be about 2 hours in a bridgeport including setup.

your welds are beautiful but i'd be scared of warping the thin bungs out-of-round, textbook tolerance on those o-ring fits is +/- .001" which seems like it could easily warp that much. I've welded in dozens of hydraulic tank bungs and they are super tricky about warping.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #25 by MechRick » Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:33 am

clintonvillian wrote: I have guys in the 4.6/5.0 claiming 600+ hp on their 39lb injectors with a variable pressure regulator. Anyhow, we will see how it goes.


I ran 1 atmosphere of boost on a recent build, running 63 PPH Siemens injectors on E85. I needed every bit of the flow.

Variable pressure or rising rate pressure regulators are a crutch fix for O/E electronics and should not be used.

We have a great selection of high impedance injectors these days. I paid $50 each for mine, and they are available with extreme flow rates. Remember that the pencil-type flow pattern is preferred, aimed at the back of the intake.

The limiting factor on high flow injectors used to be the opening time variance between sets. The manufacturers sized them on the low flow side to minimize the affect of this variance. Ultra low pulse widths on high flow injectors combined with the opening time variance would cause idle fuel differences. Thankfully, the quality has come way up. I noticed no idle issues even though my idle pulse width was below 1.4 ms.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
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http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #26 by pmuller9 » Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:57 am

clintonvillian wrote:Image

Here is an image of them, you can see the ring in them. So as tight as they are, I don't think there will be an issue with pressure, or blowby. I could be wrong. As long as there is not a heat issue, I will take my chances, and address it later. Spacer should handle it, but again pulling the o-ring up into the bung will decrease the surface area that is in contact with it (because you are moving it away from the lip). It looks to me like it would be better to have it fully seated against that lip (which is what I think you were getting at with the sleeve..


Now that I'm looking at the bung I believe you welded them in upside down
The stepped ID is meant for the injector body.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #27 by CNC-Dude » Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:59 pm

motzingg wrote:
your welds are beautiful but i'd be scared of warping the thin bungs out-of-round, textbook tolerance on those o-ring fits is +/- .001" which seems like it could easily warp that much. I've welded in dozens of hydraulic tank bungs and they are super tricky about warping.


They are going to be well over a +/- .001" out of round with that large of a bead of weld around them, they really need to be tig welded so you can use less heat and control it better. I've made threaded bungs for guys before to help eliminate that problem in both steel and aluminum. After what pmuller has pointed out about them possibly being installed upside down and the out of round factor I think its time to consider starting over.
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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #28 by clintonvillian » Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:19 pm

They are not upside down, the larger opening is up. The injector body will not slide into the bung unless I turn the injector down, nor will the oring slide into the narrower diameter. Looking at the top of the intake, it looks in place just as the bung below looks. I will fix the oring location and move on.

Out of round is not an issue. You guys are completely over engineering this. I am building an engine for a daily driver, not a 20K race engine. I am also going to call out the 0-ring .001 tolerance, this is ridiculous. You cannot bore a hole to that type of tolerance on a typical mill, with an injector boring tool (http://rossmachineracing.com/injectortool.html). I also want to point out that these bungs already have the chamfer cut into them.

The tolerance on the o-ring itself isnt even .001........see the pic below....there is I would have to pull up a book and spec sheet on oring crush, but I am will to guess an oring that size requires a crush of around .01" +/-.005" to seal depending upon pressure (ranging from +30psi to 30hg (-15psi) of vaccum) the crush tolerance is probably pretty loose.

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I apologize if this came off as being a smarta$$. I am here to learn, but this went from a bulging oring to out of control, guys weld thin aluminum bungs in on a daily basis, tig or not, there will be more than .001" distortion and they run them everyday.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #29 by motzingg » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:42 pm

ah yeah so i pulled out the parker book, for low pressure stuff its not as tight. i'm usually working with 20KSI applications where piston to bore is like .002 and its +/-.001 on the diametral clearances... my bad.

looks like for that you've got max piston to bore of .006-.008 depending on who you ask... depending on the actual mic'd diameters you're probably well within tolerance.

still... by the time you pull these out in the junkyard the orings are pretty well toasted... what seems nice and fat and making a good seal now might be crusty and marginal after a few hundred miles of high temp and boost conditions.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #30 by clintonvillian » Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:13 pm

Well...............I decided to back up and punt. I started trying to weld the bottoms up, and boring them back out. There just wasn't a good way to hold it. I tried to do it by hand, in a vise and it just wollered the things out. So I cut off the tips of the runners, made some new ones and added these longer ones on. A full Saturday gone but PROBLEM SOLVED.

Again thanks, for catching the mistake. Rookie error on my part.

Now I have to get my hands on some 60lb injectors. I also am going to open the bungs up from .535 to .545 with a hand reamer to get a nice smooth surface on the bungs for a good seal. that should also sit them right in the middle of the tolerance for the O-Ring as shown in the diagram below.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #31 by pmuller9 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:49 pm

clintonvillian wrote:Well...............I decided to back up and punt. I started trying to weld the bottoms up, and boring them back out. There just wasn't a good way to hold it. I tried to do it by hand, in a vise and it just wollered the things out. So I cut off the tips of the runners, made some new ones and added these longer ones on. A full Saturday gone but PROBLEM SOLVED.



Nice Work!
We have plenty of stuff laying around the shop from what we call "practice runs".

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #32 by clintonvillian » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:39 am

Wonder what kind of length I need to maintain here (in yellow), between the mounting face of the throttle body and the splitting point of the runners? I know the longer it is the more torque I should theoretically gain, the shorter it is the easier it will be to get in the engine bay.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #33 by pmuller9 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:28 pm

clintonvillian wrote:Wonder what kind of length I need to maintain here (in yellow), between the mounting face of the throttle body and the splitting point of the runners? I know the longer it is the more torque I should theoretically gain, the shorter it is the easier it will be to get in the engine bay.


Which way will the throttle body be facing. downdraft or sidedraft?

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #34 by clintonvillian » Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:05 pm

Side draft...........

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #35 by pmuller9 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:40 pm

clintonvillian wrote:Side draft...........

At WOT the throttle body is part of the manifold.

I would make it so the front of the throttle body is at the present edge of the sheet metal.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #36 by clintonvillian » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:17 pm

Headers are FINISHED. Everything is clearanced, had some issues with the pipes clearing the Clifford intake. Got all the interiors cleaned up at the ports. Now both intakes will fit with no issues. They fit easy, and well. Definitely an upgrade over the stock BS stuff.

Cleaned up the childish welds on the collectors as well. Must have been a Chinese kid welding up the dynomax headers......


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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #37 by clintonvillian » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:06 pm

YOU GUYS ARE GONNA LIKE THIS, I SURE DO!

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #38 by 1986F150six » Tue Feb 03, 2015 9:05 am

Very good work!

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #39 by clintonvillian » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:05 pm

Ok so I am pretty much finished welding these. I can grind them down, but I also don't think the welds look bad. They will look even better after blasting removes the final boogers..........

What do you think? Grind and finish? or leave them?

Keep in mind that no filler can be applied do the temps, and powder coating process.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #40 by clintonvillian » Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:11 pm

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Pretty much finished. Still need to install the sensors but that's about it.

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Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #41 by Soldmy66 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:52 pm

Wow - that looks great.

I have a friend who does black chrome plating on wheels for a living (he sells wheels, and has a company do the plating). I can ask him if he knows the temperature range they will live with, since your intake manifold would look great with that finish.

J.R.
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Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2002 10:11 pm
Location: SoCal

Re: Started on headers and efi intake today!

Post #42 by J.R. » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:13 pm

Lookin' good! An alternative would be to have the intake sandblasted & aluminum-sprayed. The small "boogers" kinda blend in with that finish, and the aluminum-spray coating pulls heat out of the metal of the steel intake.

J.R.
SoCal

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