Click Here -> Please Consider Making a PayPal Contribution to the FordSix Forum!
2019 Contributors:
NJwpod, 1strodeo, mightynorseman, maxtrux, 6d7coupe, broncr, Phase3, 68Flareside240, bmbm40,
mustang6, WorldChampGramp, justintendo, BigBlue94, ags290, motorsickle1130, Rooster, ousooner919, ethanperry
rzcrisis, DoctorC, jamyers, Motorboy, fastpat, Silverback280, chad


<<< New Site Update >>>

Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Moderator: Mod Squad

User avatar
67chrrybucket
Registered User
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:41 am
Location: st.louis,mo

Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #1 by 67chrrybucket » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:00 pm

Im trying to find out all i can about doing a hydraulic roller camshaft in the 300 ive seen bits and pieces in different threads but can we make a how to cost and source for good parts and if anyone has done this maybe can chime in with there thoughts on advantages disadvantages etc maybe we can make a sticky thanks.
67 mercury comet 202 (new project )
03 silverado (hoped up daily driver)

User avatar
81slantnosewp
Registered User
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:49 pm

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #2 by 81slantnosewp » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:28 am

Im doing a solid from comp cams but the hydraulic would be almost the same comp has both solid and hydraulic lifters that will work I found that 302 lifters are needed and 429/460 link bars cams will be custom ground wich cost around $840 plus lifters and other components
occam's razor vs shrodinger's cat

81 f100: Lilly 300 carb 81 f100 build thread
86 f150: Zoey 302 efi
88 ranger: Belle 2.3
91 f250: Alice ?
95 f150: Ruby 300 efi
1st 300 engine build thread

1964f100240
Registered User
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:40 pm

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #3 by 1964f100240 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:39 am

its money on the street theres really no need for roller there is a lot of good tappet cams out there.

User avatar
81slantnosewp
Registered User
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:49 pm

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #4 by 81slantnosewp » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:21 am

Beg your pardon but if you don't have anything positive to contribute then don't reply to a thread purposely posted to provide opposite info its disrespectful
Also roller cams are a good investment for the lack of zddp the longevity of flat tappet cams are severely decreased in performance applications ive seen 3 cams rounded simply because of the lack of zinc
occam's razor vs shrodinger's cat

81 f100: Lilly 300 carb 81 f100 build thread
86 f150: Zoey 302 efi
88 ranger: Belle 2.3
91 f250: Alice ?
95 f150: Ruby 300 efi
1st 300 engine build thread

User avatar
67chrrybucket
Registered User
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:41 am
Location: st.louis,mo

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #5 by 67chrrybucket » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:05 am

So can you buy the 460 link bars separate to put with the 302 lifters or will you have to buy two sets?
67 mercury comet 202 (new project )
03 silverado (hoped up daily driver)

User avatar
81slantnosewp
Registered User
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:49 pm

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #6 by 81slantnosewp » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:18 am

Yes they come separate I actually got the lifter from summit and the links straight from comp ill do I right up of part numbers hopefully tomorrow
occam's razor vs shrodinger's cat

81 f100: Lilly 300 carb 81 f100 build thread
86 f150: Zoey 302 efi
88 ranger: Belle 2.3
91 f250: Alice ?
95 f150: Ruby 300 efi
1st 300 engine build thread

1964f100240
Registered User
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:40 pm

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #7 by 1964f100240 » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:32 pm

so what your saying is you can run cheap oil with a roller. it takes a lot of good oil to ad up to 1200$. i didnt mean to hurt anyones feelings not everyones budget can afford roller cams

User avatar
worken2much
Registered User
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 9:01 pm

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #8 by worken2much » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:52 pm

1964,
It isn't a question of cheap oil or expensive oil. There is an issue with oils today not having the needed additives, (zinc) to keep a high lift cam with associated high spring pressures alive. I've been getting by with flat tappet cams so far but it does take some care in breaking in a new cam. I typically use stock 300 springs and lower ratio rockers to start with. After the break in interval is completed, then swap out parts to desired spring & rocker. I also run an additive during the break in period.

There have been many documented cases of cam failure due to not following these or similar steps. Once the cam goes to pieces, the steel is distributed throughout the oiling system. Certainy can, will & has ruined the entire rebuild. That's the interest in roller cams from an oil standpoint. Roller cams also allow more aggresive ramps for high performance applications as well. If they weren't so expensive, that is what I would run in all four of our 300 six powered vintage cars.

81,
I thought the roller lifters from a 429 / 460 worked? Not so?

Thanks,
Worken2much
Rule #1. Six Cylinder Racers Have Longer Cranks.
Rule #2. Unless your given name is Richard...don't be a dick.

motzingg
Registered User
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:16 am

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #9 by motzingg » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:50 pm

worken2much wrote: Roller cams also allow more aggresive ramps for high performance applications as well.


Its buried in a large post so i thought i'd just repeat that. The lifter face can only accommodate so large of a lobe, the OD is fixed by your bearing size and those two constrain the base circle, meaning you can only go do a certain lift and duration with a flat tappet given the geometry of your block.

By switching to a rolling point contact, you can run a more aggressive ramp and more aggressive profile, not to mention higher spring pressure which accommodates larger valves and higher RPM. All with better reliability and longevity.

Someone on here explained this to me a couple months back when the same topic came up, up until that point i thought it was just an RPM/reliability/spring pressure issue.


The ZDDP additives and Zinc containing oil are very easy to come by. 'Diesel oils' have it, and i run Rotella T in the truck and T6 in my motorcycles. Even with rollers, the distributor gear, cast iron rings, lots of parts in an old engine that like to be running on Zinc.

The cam break in issue is also being made worse by the proliferation of cheap chinese lifters and cams in the last 10 years, all the OEM's have stopped buying flat tappets as of about 2006 so the market has shrunk and quality has gone down. I don't really see wiping a lobe as a reason not to run one cam over the other, but a proper cam break-in is definitely something to be aware of.

I read an article in Engine Builder a few months ago talking about how this has become a major problem, where it never really existed in the past, even big name performance engine builders have wiped out cams. Swapping out to a low pressure spring (as annoying as it may be) was one of the things they recommended.

User avatar
67chrrybucket
Registered User
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:41 am
Location: st.louis,mo

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #10 by 67chrrybucket » Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:33 pm

Am i right in thinking you will also need a steel distrubuter gear vs a cast if you go roller? Who would still make a quality lifter for flat tappet?
67 mercury comet 202 (new project )
03 silverado (hoped up daily driver)

User avatar
81slantnosewp
Registered User
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:49 pm

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #11 by 81slantnosewp » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:43 pm

429/460 rollers will fit but the oiling hole is parallel to the rollers axle pin but the 300 oil passages need the perpendicular oil hole

Something I forgot to mention to put the lifters in the bosses for the side cover will need to be machined down so you can slide the links in front of them or you can unscrew the keeper on the lifter but its been mushroomed on the backside so you'll have to use threadlock and a modified allen wrench to screw them back in

You will need a bronze distributor gear which iirc msd makes and summit has available for around 60$

Also consider an all metal timing gear set if not already

Budget is a consideration but the need to raise demand for rollers will drop the price considerably the reason for it being so expensive is that comp doesn't stock roller cores like flat tappets my cam actually started as a 4"x4"x5' block of metal untreated and raw but if the market was to demand more rollers than the price for a single cam could come down as low as 250 a cam

Break in procedures are EXTREMELY IMPORTANT but id rather spend 500$ for that peace of mind

I wasn't truly upset I just had posted on two other forums that day but got some really condescending and empty responses and I was really fed up with it luckily I had a beer before I responded here otherwise I may have responded like I did to the others

Ive spoken with comp and they are willing to move with the market but its up to us to change it
occam's razor vs shrodinger's cat

81 f100: Lilly 300 carb 81 f100 build thread
86 f150: Zoey 302 efi
88 ranger: Belle 2.3
91 f250: Alice ?
95 f150: Ruby 300 efi
1st 300 engine build thread

User avatar
81slantnosewp
Registered User
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:49 pm

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #12 by 81slantnosewp » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:55 pm

as promised a full parts list write up

lifters
hydralic- 8931-16 (set of 16)
solid- 838-1 or 890c-1 single
linkbars(work with both solid or hydraulic)
836-L
older heads have pill shaped holes for pushrods newer heads do not if you have newer heads then you need rod guides
4839-8 (for 3/8 pushrods) or 4835-8 (for 5/16 pushrods)
timing gears
3224
distributor gear(from comp)
466

when you order your cam you can get/need
roller rockers(1.6 or 1.7 ratio)
rocker studs in (3/8 or 7/16)
beehive springs retainers and locks
pushrods either 3/8 or 5/16 (probably best to wait till assembly to check geometry before ordering)

the bosses for the side cover need to be machined approximately 1/4 inch to accommodate lifter installation the bosses at cylinder 1 and 6 need to be further machined to allow for link bar travel
if installing higher rate springs (recomended to compensate for the accelerated lift) the factory pressed in studs should be replaced with screw in type

i feel like im missing something if i think of something ill edit the post
occam's razor vs shrodinger's cat

81 f100: Lilly 300 carb 81 f100 build thread
86 f150: Zoey 302 efi
88 ranger: Belle 2.3
91 f250: Alice ?
95 f150: Ruby 300 efi
1st 300 engine build thread

motzingg
Registered User
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:16 am

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #13 by motzingg » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:15 am

I can't find the exact article i was reading, I'm at work right now and i'm pretty sure that issue is at home.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2013/02/top-reasons-and-causes-for-camshaft-failure/

This is from Crane. The article I read said that 3 or 4 manufacturers as of 2005 or so were making flat tappet lifters, supporting the oem's and selling to aftermarket vendors, who packaged those lifters with their own name on the box. If you buy a cam from, say, Lunati, with matched lifters, the lifters were made by someone else.

When the OEMs all went to roller, the demand for flat tappets dried up and the market could no longer support multiple suppliers, you gotta figure they are probably deep drawing these things on a very sophisticated piece of machinery, and grinding them with the crown and finish held very tightly- not exactly something you can do in your garage.

The aftermarket suppliers had to scramble to find lifters, industry sources say there was actually a shortage, until prices went up enough for one or two of the domestic MFG's to get back into the game.

I think around the same time (2009) Crane, who was making almost everyone else's blanks and lifters, got sold or had some kind of restructuring that caused an interruption in the industry.


oh here, this is an article from hotrod that has the same information as engine builder, but this one you can actually fact check as opposed to my memory... haha

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/flat-tappet-cam-tech/

User avatar
67chrrybucket
Registered User
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:41 am
Location: st.louis,mo

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #14 by 67chrrybucket » Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:56 pm

81 what year heads have the pill shaped holes for push rods? And on a solid roller lifter is there still the need for periodic lash adjustments? And i was curious about some specs on your particular build just like to see what others are doing
67 mercury comet 202 (new project )
03 silverado (hoped up daily driver)

User avatar
67chrrybucket
Registered User
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:41 am
Location: st.louis,mo

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #15 by 67chrrybucket » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:08 pm

When you order the cam from comp they will know what you need? Does the base circle get modified? How much is the distrubuter gear?
67 mercury comet 202 (new project )
03 silverado (hoped up daily driver)

arse_sidewards
Registered User
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:18 am

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #16 by arse_sidewards » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:29 am

So for someone that's already got the valve-train squared away all you'd need is the cam (what was the price out the door on that?), Windsor lifters and 385 link bars, correct?

Since we've only got 3/4 as many cylinders buying sets of 7 that have one broken or damaged component off eBay would reduce the cost significantly.

1964f100240 wrote:so what your saying is you can run cheap oil with a roller. it takes a lot of good oil to ad up to 1200$. i didnt mean to hurt anyones feelings not everyones budget can afford roller cams


With the typical service life of a 300 built to a low power and speed level (under 250hp, cam runs out of breath around 3k, never sees 4k) and assembled by a competent rebuilder one would almost certainly break even over the life of the engine...
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

CNC-Dude
Registered User
Posts: 1470
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:06 pm
Location: N. Ga.
Contact:

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #17 by CNC-Dude » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:32 pm

67chrrybucket wrote:81 what year heads have the pill shaped holes for push rods? And on a solid roller lifter is there still the need for periodic lash adjustments? And i was curious about some specs on your particular build just like to see what others are doing

When you jump up to a solid roller, you are required to also jump higher for the cost of screw-in studs and guide plates, better quality valves that can withstand the much higher spring pressure trying to pull the valve apart, better hardened pushrods(preferably chrome moly), premium retainers and locks(preferably 10°), and of course, double or triple valve springs depending on your cam specs, its not uncommon to have over 300-350 lbs. of open spring pressure with a solid roller. And yes, valve adjustment is probably going to be more than periodic.
Image

motzingg
Registered User
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:16 am

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #18 by motzingg » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:59 pm

The guide slot pushrod holes went through '84, the casting for the bolt-down/pedestal mount rockers is '85. If you want a carb head with pedestal rockers, your only choice is 85 (which is what i have) but i don't think the pedestal rockers are very good, it was the only thing on my engine showing significant wear (91 engine with 120k miles) and that was of course on stock components. They aren't rollerized, they just have a saddle arrangement with oiling grooves and due to the valve geometry being slightly off to one side, it dramatically wore half the saddle more than the other.

I wouldn't say for sure you have to go to a roller rocker if you go to a roller cam, but if you're going to the trouble of a roller cam, plus the higher loads as CNCdude mentioned, I would think the roller rocker would be pretty much mandatory.

It would be nice to go to a common rail type system like a FE motor, the crossflow head that FTF posted had that type of system.

CNC-Dude
Registered User
Posts: 1470
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:06 pm
Location: N. Ga.
Contact:

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #19 by CNC-Dude » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:51 pm

Yes, I thought roller rocker were a given. You would have to use the non-slotted pushrod hole head, or drill out the slotted head and convert to screw in studs and guide plates for a solid roller cam.
Image

User avatar
67chrrybucket
Registered User
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:41 am
Location: st.louis,mo

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #20 by 67chrrybucket » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:40 pm

On my build i had already planned for screw in studs roller rockers top quality valves and push rods.my head is a 77 so i assume i will still need guide plates? 81 how long did it take to make the cam? Trying to make sure i had it in time.
Since i was looking at a 232/232 duration. 524/.524 lift 112 lc i got these specs from pmuller9 on a flat tappet cam would i want to keep these specs for a roller cam? Or would it be best to have comp spec it
67 mercury comet 202 (new project )
03 silverado (hoped up daily driver)

1964f100240
Registered User
Posts: 82
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:40 pm

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #21 by 1964f100240 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:38 am

there is a lot of stuff to think about when ording a cam
1-drivability
2-what trans
3-what gears
4-power range
5-wheight
6-compression
7-how much hp do you want to make
call the cam grinder there very good most of the time thats what they do for a living.

pmuller9
Registered User
Posts: 3370
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #22 by pmuller9 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:54 am

67chrrybucket wrote:On my build i had already planned for screw in studs roller rockers top quality valves and push rods.my head is a 77 so i assume i will still need guide plates? 81 how long did it take to make the cam? Trying to make sure i had it in time.
Since i was looking at a 232/232 duration. 524/.524 lift 112 lc i got these specs from pmuller9 on a flat tappet cam would i want to keep these specs for a roller cam? Or would it be best to have comp spec it


The purpose of going to a roller cam is not to be stuck with flat tappet lobe restraints so don't look at a flat tappet cam for roller cam profiles.
You can have a more aggressive profile and make more power with less duration and more lift and so on.

Adding to what 1964f100240 posted, when you call to order the cam they will want to know the engine specs along with the head flow numbers so it important to have the head flowed after porting.

The right way to order is to leave the compression ratio open (as in not order the pistons yet) and finalize the compression based on the cam specs or manufactures recommendation.
In this case you need to call Comp Cams when you are ready.

Check out the specs on 81slantnosewp roller cam.

viewtopic.php?p=565145#p565145

User avatar
67chrrybucket
Registered User
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:41 am
Location: st.louis,mo

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #23 by 67chrrybucket » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:15 am

So do the head first port and polish flow test it bigger valves make sure i get all my head measurments then order cam once i have those specs order pistons with a goal of 7.5 dcr if i read that post right. That is great advice thanks for helping me reach my goal of a bad street straight six :beer:
67 mercury comet 202 (new project )
03 silverado (hoped up daily driver)

pmuller9
Registered User
Posts: 3370
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #24 by pmuller9 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:36 am

67chrrybucket wrote:So do the head first port and polish flow test it bigger valves make sure i get all my head measurments then order cam once i have those specs order pistons with a goal of 7.5 dcr if i read that post right. That is great advice thanks for helping me reach my goal of a bad street straight six :beer:


Yep

There are things you can ask for when ordering, kinda like Christmas. Example:

Explain that you don't have hardened seat inserts and are looking for longevity.
They may be able to supply you with an asymmetric lobe profile where the valve opens quickly which helps gets the intake air/fuel mixture moving sooner
but closes later and sets the valves down on the seat very gently.
Same type of profile for the exhaust also.

A lot of stock cams where designed that way.

motzingg
Registered User
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:16 am

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #25 by motzingg » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:46 pm

CNC-Dude wrote:.... guide plates for a solid roller cam.


Hey Mr CNCdude, what about the roller rockers that are self-aligning, with a bar/gusset type arrangement?

The guide plate seems kindof cave-man to me, i would think it would eventually have some sort of wear or issues with friction? Seems like the SBC motors go with that type of setup more than guide plates but the 302's you see having guide plates.

I don't know much about the different options... when they say 'pedestal mount' does that imply that the alignment is being controlled by locking the rotation of the fulcrum about the stud, and when they say 'stud mount' does that imply that there will be a guide plate fitted?

User avatar
johns3524
Registered User
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #26 by johns3524 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:29 pm

In my last build for my 4x4 I wanted to utilize a roller cam. After doing the research, I found that one of the things that I would want to do as well was utilize a "guide-plate". But I found no source for such a plate and even wanted to have some made..but no-could-find,(except for the comp-cam guides with inserts that I had no interest in (pedastals only))
Sine I love these motors and prefer to utilize them till I can no-longer drive...I wanted to do what some here are talking about, utilizing a roller cam, forgetting the break-in worries. and absorb the extra cost of the cam/followers etc. My choice: no arguments as to the cost or why.

The other part of the issue I believe what kind of rocker assembly are you going to use? Since these motors came with 3 different styles of rocker/stud variations..what kind would make the most sense?

For me since i like adjust-ability "hot"...i wanted to find rockers and studs that could be utilized with all of the head variations including the pedestals that did NOT come with a p-rod glide slot.

I can remember the guide plate that Chevy used for Corvairs that allowed for some pretty exciting revs that I personally enjoyed.

If someone can make a guide-plate that would fit these heads and make them commercially available..I'm a buyer.

My next motor WILL be a roller-cam. and I WILL want to utilize a guide plate arrangement. Since this motor will run forever at under 3krpm...I'm sure a guide-plate arrangement will be just fine...
86' Bronco, 300-6, .030 over, Crane cam, Cloyes gears, Clifford Intake, Autolite 2100 C3 manual choke, EFI head & manifolds>walker2n1>shorty Magniflow>, Duraspark II, TFI coil, Napa blue box, NP435, NP208F, 3.50's-9"& Dana44ttb, factory a/c

pmuller9
Registered User
Posts: 3370
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:33 am
Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #27 by pmuller9 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:47 pm

Comp makes an adjustable guide plate.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/393 ... C01506.JPG

But I'm still leaning toward having one piece guide plates made for each intake and exhaust pair.

CNC-Dude
Registered User
Posts: 1470
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:06 pm
Location: N. Ga.
Contact:

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #28 by CNC-Dude » Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:06 pm

motzingg wrote:
CNC-Dude wrote:.... guide plates for a solid roller cam.


Hey Mr CNCdude, what about the roller rockers that are self-aligning, with a bar/gusset type arrangement?

The guide plate seems kindof cave-man to me, i would think it would eventually have some sort of wear or issues with friction? Seems like the SBC motors go with that type of setup more than guide plates but the 302's you see having guide plates.

I don't know much about the different options... when they say 'pedestal mount' does that imply that the alignment is being controlled by locking the rotation of the fulcrum about the stud, and when they say 'stud mount' does that imply that there will be a guide plate fitted?

That would be perfectly acceptable for a hydraulic roller setup, but for a solid roller, the hardened guide plate is better. When you start pushing the spring pressure that high like you do with a solid roller, the rocker tries twist and turn a lot harder on the valve tip, making that design of rocker a liability. When you use heat treated pushrods and guide plates, they are perfectly compatable together. Its just when you use the soft factory style pushrods and guide plates that you have extreme wear problems.
Image

User avatar
johns3524
Registered User
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #29 by johns3524 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:30 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Comp makes an adjustable guide plate.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/393 ... C01506.JPG

But I'm still leaning toward having one piece guide plates made for each intake and exhaust pair.


Yes I've seen those..but I'm still waiting for someone to water-jet some perhaps...I don't see why it couldn't be done. I'd buy a set to just stick on the shelf. I like the later EFI pedestal heads...just prefer to old-school adjust...

I AM interested in the roller cam parts list as well.
86' Bronco, 300-6, .030 over, Crane cam, Cloyes gears, Clifford Intake, Autolite 2100 C3 manual choke, EFI head & manifolds>walker2n1>shorty Magniflow>, Duraspark II, TFI coil, Napa blue box, NP435, NP208F, 3.50's-9"& Dana44ttb, factory a/c

User avatar
81slantnosewp
Registered User
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:49 pm

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #30 by 81slantnosewp » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:56 pm

ok srry ive been away for awhile just when questions were asked but it seems someone else stepped up
my engine build is in my sig only addendum is not using the 240 head but a carbed head my cam specs are stated there as well
it took a while as in 3 - 4 months being custom
distributor gear is $59 from comp
there is much debate about periodic adjustments but im in the camp of "if using correct components" not any more than a standard build meaning... solid requires lash... which requires hardened valves to prevent mushrooming... since headwork is to be done means new guides and seats limiting periodic adjustments to minimum after proper break in procedures

from what i hear the right man for the job is cncdude to come up with made for 300/240 items
i even had a thought on that subject since im machining the bosses for the side cover down would making a one piece guide plate that mounted across them in the lifter galley be feasible instead of stud mounted guide plates just a thought for consideration
occam's razor vs shrodinger's cat

81 f100: Lilly 300 carb 81 f100 build thread
86 f150: Zoey 302 efi
88 ranger: Belle 2.3
91 f250: Alice ?
95 f150: Ruby 300 efi
1st 300 engine build thread

motzingg
Registered User
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:16 am

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #31 by motzingg » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:37 am

Yeah i looked into the guide plate thing and decided it was too risky, i don't know enough about the metallurgy. It looks like the commercially available ones are stampings which could imply some level of cold work around the wearing edge.

Waterjet of course would just be an abrasive cut, and laser or plasma cutting them opens up to other issues with the heat affected zone around the cut.

Then i looked at making them with an aluminum bronze insert and quotes on the inserts were 20 bucks each at small quantity, because they would have to be ovaloid and CNC milled with the profile. If i could turn them they would be easy, so i looked at having a round bushing on the pushrod and have it travel back and forth in the slot, I couldn't find anyone doing that in industry so i don't know if its a good idea or not.

My thought for the guide plates would be 1020 CD plate, which is cheap and easily available, with a thin case hard put on it, 45-50C. It could be waterjet with a separate milling op for the close tolerance slot if necessary. Either way the sale price (wholesale coming from me) would probably be 200 bucks and any retailer is going to put 20-40% markup on top of that.


Long story, well, long, the comp adjustable ones are much easier to interface.

My other thought would be to indicate and drill the head precisely and press in bushings into the pushrod holes with the oval slot. Once again aluminum bronze for the bushings, but I'm not sure what the alignment tolerance on the valves, studs, etc, is relative to the lifter bores. I've heard that there can be quite a bit (010-020) of variation on the true position of the lifter bores relative to the head geometry.

User avatar
81slantnosewp
Registered User
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:49 pm

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #32 by 81slantnosewp » Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:59 pm

occam's razor vs shrodinger's cat

81 f100: Lilly 300 carb 81 f100 build thread
86 f150: Zoey 302 efi
88 ranger: Belle 2.3
91 f250: Alice ?
95 f150: Ruby 300 efi
1st 300 engine build thread

CNC-Dude
Registered User
Posts: 1470
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:06 pm
Location: N. Ga.
Contact:

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #33 by CNC-Dude » Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:23 pm

There's too many options out there that you can buy off the shelf without having to resort to making something from scratch and cheaper.
Image

motzingg
Registered User
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:16 am

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #34 by motzingg » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:05 pm

81slantnosewp wrote:what about making it capable of using the poly inserts from cranes guide plates



Yeah i looked at that, those do travel in the slots, now that i think of it i cant remember why i decided that was a bad idea... hmmm. Maybe something i read say the poly ones wore out? I went through all this before building my current motor almost a year ago.

I think the adjustable ones are just real hard to beat for the price.

There are a lot of places online that will waterjet you anything you send them, they'd probably even draw it from a napkin sketch, but i think you'd have to be pretty sharp to get it right on the first try. I don't trust myself, i'd want to build a prototype out of plexi or something and try it first.

Like i said, i just feel like i don't know enough about valvetrain stuff to take on the project. I could easily draw it up and get it made (as could anyone else) but the clearances, tolerances, material selection.... i think there is more than meets the eye.

User avatar
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
VIP Member
Posts: 6093
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 9:25 pm
Location: FRENCHTOWN

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #35 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:06 pm

Something else to consider:

The pushrods are not all parallel to each other - they are canted slightly from the lifter to the rocker arm. Measure the lifter bore spacing vis-a-vis the stud spacing and you'll see what I'm talking about.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

User avatar
81slantnosewp
Registered User
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:49 pm

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #36 by 81slantnosewp » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:13 pm

all in all i love this engine but finding parts that are labeled for its use is hard if you go beyond the realm of stock and mild the ability to search for "made for 300 4.9l parts" would be great especially for someone like me who has a lack of experience compared to yous guyz ive obviously done extensive research to get to where im at in my build and there is somethings i may have changed if i were to do it again that being said that was half the fun but for future builders it would be nice to have that knowledge readily available for them "knowledge un-shared, is knowledge waisted"
thank you ftf pmuller motzingg worken2much and bubba along with this forum and years of research on it prior to starting, without yalls insight id have never made it this far
and cnc dude youve come in with some info i needed several times recently
occam's razor vs shrodinger's cat

81 f100: Lilly 300 carb 81 f100 build thread
86 f150: Zoey 302 efi
88 ranger: Belle 2.3
91 f250: Alice ?
95 f150: Ruby 300 efi
1st 300 engine build thread

CNC-Dude
Registered User
Posts: 1470
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:06 pm
Location: N. Ga.
Contact:

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #37 by CNC-Dude » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:08 pm

Your welcome, glad to help out. I am starting to tire from some of the other sites that have been distracting me lately. I need to show the Fordsix site more attention and get back on some of the Ford projects i've started.
Image

motzingg
Registered User
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:16 am

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #38 by motzingg » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:07 pm

I've learned everything I know from the guys on this forum.

I can't even imagine what it was like before the internet, going to swap meets, races, hanging out in the pits trying to figure out who was making what. So much stuff has been made in garages for a limited time and never made again, long long before forums, the internet or digital pictures. I appreciate the 'link to the past' of guys like Cncdude, FTF, Worken2Much, MechRick, etc... who have actually raced these engines and hung out in the pits. I don't care who you are, you just can't get that information any other way than first or second hand.

I mentioned it before but there is a guy who is trying to assemble a website with photos of every single performance part ever made for the Stovebolt Chevy. Pretty awesome, the diversity, i never would have expected it.

Its good to see you doing some good research too, slant nose, as well as putting your money where your mouth is and plunking down a couple grand to buy this stuff and physically see what fits and what doesnt. The 460 lifter not working... several threads on here and elsewhere have reported that they do work in stock configuration.



As far as the pushrod alignment, I also noticed that in regards to the comp 'adjustable' bracket- you are stuck with the pushrod inline with the stud. In my engine the center-on-center spacing was about .100 wider for the pushrod at the rocker than it was for the studs... pulling it in would put the rocker off the center face of the valve, not sure what you would do about that. My thought was offsetting the stud holes when re-drilling them for 3/8, but then this '85 head fell in my lap and I went that direction.

User avatar
bubba22349
Global Moderator
Posts: 9131
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:46 pm
Location: Flagstaff, Az. 86005 near the old Route 66

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #39 by bubba22349 » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:18 pm

CNC-Dude wrote:Your welcome, glad to help out. I am starting to tire from some of the other sites that have been distracting me lately. I need to show the Fordsix site more attention and get back on some of the Ford projects i've started.


Hi CNC-Dude, been wondering how are you doing with that 300 head design? Take care :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

motzingg
Registered User
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:16 am

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #40 by motzingg » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:44 pm

yeah i was just thinking about it the other day... get anywhere with that?

CNC-Dude
Registered User
Posts: 1470
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:06 pm
Location: N. Ga.
Contact:

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #41 by CNC-Dude » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:00 pm

I actually came across my factory Ford cylinder head blueprint and it got me to wanting to put it back on the front burner instead of the back one.
Image

User avatar
CoupeBoy
VIP Member
Posts: 3425
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 12:17 am
Location: Fargo, ND
Contact:

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #42 by CoupeBoy » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:15 pm

CNC-Dude wrote:I actually came across my factory Ford cylinder head blueprint and it got me to wanting to put it back on the front burner instead of the back one.
If only there was a 'like' button on here... :beer:

arse_sidewards
Registered User
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:18 am

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #43 by arse_sidewards » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:21 pm

CNC-Dude wrote:I actually came across my factory Ford cylinder head blueprint and it got me to wanting to put it back on the front burner instead of the back one.


Is there any chance of that making it onto the internet?

It would be incredibly beneficial to those of us engaged in valve-train projects
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

motzingg
Registered User
Posts: 815
Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:16 am

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #44 by motzingg » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:23 pm

Yeah wow, likewise if you need a cad jockey to turn it into solidworks, i could help with that. I was thinking about silicone casting the port and bowl of my EFI head to digitize for CNC porting, but a print would be marvellous!

CNC-Dude
Registered User
Posts: 1470
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:06 pm
Location: N. Ga.
Contact:

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #45 by CNC-Dude » Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:24 pm

I already have machined some chamber designs I created in Solidworks and can do all the CAD/CAM designing and drawing myself. Thanks though. I was given the cylinder head blueprints in confidence not to disclose them publicly, so I would have to check with my source to see if this is still their wishes.
Image

arse_sidewards
Registered User
Posts: 849
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:18 am

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #46 by arse_sidewards » Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:23 pm

CNC-Dude wrote:I already have machined some chamber designs I created in Solidworks and can do all the CAD/CAM designing and drawing myself. Thanks though. I was given the cylinder head blueprints in confidence not to disclose them publicly, so I would have to check with my source to see if this is still their wishes.


It wouldn't exactly be public if it was on the hardcore tech board.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

CNC-Dude
Registered User
Posts: 1470
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:06 pm
Location: N. Ga.
Contact:

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #47 by CNC-Dude » Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:34 pm

I'll still have to check and see if they care if this is done.
Image

User avatar
67chrrybucket
Registered User
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:41 am
Location: st.louis,mo

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #48 by 67chrrybucket » Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:06 am

Does this mean there's still a possibility for an aluminum head for the 300? Or am i reading too much into this?
67 mercury comet 202 (new project )
03 silverado (hoped up daily driver)

CNC-Dude
Registered User
Posts: 1470
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:06 pm
Location: N. Ga.
Contact:

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #49 by CNC-Dude » Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:40 pm

Yes, it is very much on the table now. I was kinda' holding back because Mike was supposed to be in the process of making one. Since he has passed, i'd say that this is off the table now for Classic Inlines any time soon regrettably.
Image

User avatar
67chrrybucket
Registered User
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:41 am
Location: st.louis,mo

Re: Roller cams for 300 big six thread

Post #50 by 67chrrybucket » Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:58 pm

Wow im sure many people and myself would be very interested in that besides the gain in horsepower and torque think if the weight savings
67 mercury comet 202 (new project )
03 silverado (hoped up daily driver)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: chad and 43 guests