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can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

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sdiesel
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can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #1 by sdiesel » Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:58 am

can we talk about running a cooling port to cylinder 6?
or dispense with water pump and plumb all 5 freeze plugs with a manifold that delivers water to reach cylinder
flame me . tell me how this would not be feasible
im looking at davies craig style of pump set up.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #2 by mutt » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:24 pm

Why? What are you looking for?

sdiesel
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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #3 by sdiesel » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:35 pm

the idea is consistant cooling of each cylinder. the removal of the water pump, and the heck of it.

importantly in a heavy rig if i can keep temps more constant up hill and down, the advantage is obvious. and it should be "easy" to do and fun. i imagine a hard pipe manifold the length of the block with ports to each freezeplug a flex hose to the water pump and the standard thermostat and return line.

this is for truck applications or heavier usage applications on a practical note.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #4 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:21 pm

Look closely at a cylinder head gasket. There are water metering holes in it to evenly distribute the cooled water entering the block from the water pump outlet. Several types of tests are run, including thermocoupled water passages, magnesium borate precipitate tests, etc to try to get the cooling as evenly as possible throughout the engine.
It is always wise to pick which battles are worth the fight.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #5 by arse_sidewards » Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:23 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:It is always wise to pick which battles are worth the fight.


This. I find it hard to believe you don't have room for more radiator or a bigger fan.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #6 by sdiesel » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:18 am

got a 460 radiator and taurus fan no problem there. but that cooolant is not in the block where i want to consider these changes

the diagram in the shop manual, and my experience with heat in these little engines on a hard pull heavily loaded, makes me wonder if maybe something better could be developed using modern tech, applying it to old designs etc etc. especially the real possibility of improving heat transfer out of the iron into coolant at pistons 5 and six.

engineers in that time only had a front mounted pump and im sure never planned their cooling for some of the engines on these pages; especially with forced induction .

as for picking battles, these words seem strange coming from you. a fellow who has pushed these engines far far beyond any design parameters originally intended.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

arse_sidewards
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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #7 by arse_sidewards » Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:07 am

sdiesel wrote:got a 460 radiator and taurus fan no problem there. but that cooolant is not in the block where i want to consider these changes

the diagram in the shop manual, and my experience with heat in these little engines on a hard pull heavily loaded, makes me wonder if maybe something better could be developed using modern tech, applying it to old designs etc etc. especially the real possibility of improving heat transfer out of the iron into coolant at pistons 5 and six.

engineers in that time only had a front mounted pump and im sure never planned their cooling for some of the engines on these pages; especially with forced induction .

as for picking battles, these words seem strange coming from you. a fellow who has pushed these engines far far beyond any design parameters originally intended.


Put a real fan on that sonuvabitch. HD clutch and smaller pulley are optional but encouraged if you plan on towing something big out of death valley in July. I rocked a Taurus fan for awhile. It moves laughably little air compared to a stock clutch fan and that's at idle. My current solution is to keep a tiny 10" fan made from a shop air compressor pulley on most of the year and swap on a stock fan and HD clutch in the summer.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #8 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:44 am

sdiesel wrote:
as for picking battles, these words seem strange coming from you. a fellow who has pushed these engines far far beyond any design parameters originally intended.


On the contrary, I am a perfect example of "roads not taken" when it comes to picking which battles not to fight. It has been my quest to drag race on a sportsman level e.t. handicap format using the 300 six. To that end, there have been many decisions made where I had to realize that optimum engine output will have to be reduced in order to have a reliable, consistent combination:

- Removal of crankshaft weight would have improved output at the expense of bearing and crankshaft life.

- Using a production U-flow head would have required extensive welding and other modifications, meaning more between-race maintenance. At the other end of that spectrum a V8 style crossflow head will make gobs of power but they are pricey, unreliable and require many special pieces be fabbed. Thankfully, my one-piece cast iron crossflow head came along that fit neatly between the restrictive thin walled (high maintenance) stock head and the high flowing V8 (high maintenance) crossflow head.

- An all-out Comp style engine making about 150 more HP than mine would mean reinforcing the cylinder walls by filling the water passages. Of course that would mean I can't drive it around the pits, up the return road; would mean a tow vehicle; would mean another crew member.

- Removal of the cooling system and charging system would mean forced cooling between rounds, charging the battery between rounds.

- Methanol instead of race gas would boost my torque but take a toll on engine wear.

I have listed just four items - the crank, the head, the block, and fuel - where compromises were made and battles not fought. I could name dozens of other component choices where both the engine and chassis similar hard choices had to be made that sacrificed performance for reliability, consistency, and ease of maintenance. Sure, I'll never have a hot rod that runs in the sevens. But successes on the race track aside, my engine has been in my drag car for SIX SEASONS! It is coming out this fall for bearing checks, re-ring, and magnaflux checks. I just ran a leakdown check to see how worn out the internal components were. Here are the results:

Cyl #:
1 - 5%
2 - 8%
3 - 5%
4 - 5%
5 - 6%
6 - 6%

Not bad for a six year old racing engine. And nothing there to indicate one end of the engine received less coolant than the other.

Lots of topics discussed here on the forum are "what if" and "why not" subjects and I applaud those who think outside the box. But when it comes to making practical decisions on where to spend my money and where to devote my most precious commodity - my time - I have learned which battles to fight.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #9 by Cool23 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 4:45 pm

sdiesel wrote:im looking at davies craig style of pump set up.


Just fit the Davies Craig pump as a replacement for the existing pump and be done with.
I've had plenty of experience with that brand and you will not regret it.
V8's are great but Six Inlines Just Fine. Cummins Advert.

The link to my project on this forum http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=41598

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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #10 by Fordman75 » Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:29 pm

arse_sidewards wrote:I rocked a Taurus fan for awhile. It moves laughably little air compared to a stock clutch fan and that's at idle.


If the Taurus fan isn't moving enough air, you are doing something wrong! :lol:
Ted

54 Ford F100/F150 4x4
300, NP435 4spd, NP205 transfercase

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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #11 by arse_sidewards » Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:26 pm

Fordman75 wrote:
arse_sidewards wrote:I rocked a Taurus fan for awhile. It moves laughably little air compared to a stock clutch fan and that's at idle.


If the Taurus fan isn't moving enough air, you are doing something wrong! :lol:


It was perfectly adequate. I just had issues with the mount I built and swapped on a normal fan. The normal fan moves way more air. When ambient temp is 90+ it's not hard to want more than 5,000cfm.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #12 by jamyers » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:25 am

I'd think that a better approach would be to try reverse-flow cooling, push the coolant into the head, then out the front of the block. You'd have a cooler head, and then the hottest part of the block would be the front cylinders, where there's more airflow.
James - '62 Ranchero (200cid), '71 LeSabre (464cid)

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Emergency Rooms and Funeral Homes will be busy for a week or so, then I predict a dramatic drop in vehicle accidents.

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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #13 by tom954x4 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:08 am

Evans Cooling Systems described and patented several reverse flow cooling systems back in the 1980s (IIRC), and they were the subject of several patents (now expired or declared invalid), and at one time this cooling system was put in a production Corvette. Significant performance and efficiency gains were reported but it never entered wide usage to my knowledge. I wonder if it has ever been tried in a 300 six?
1995 F-150 XL, 300-6, 4x4, ex-cab, sb, 3.08 5-speed, 2 1/2 in. exhaust w/flowmaster 50, MSDignition failed with no warning, now out, canopy, 179,000 + miles. Gone but not forgotten 1965 F-100 240 3spd lwb "the green hornet"; 1960 F-250 4x4, 223 six, 4sp with wrap-around rear window, two-tone paint, overhead camper.
Tow vehicle: 2012 F-250 4x4 6.7 diesel XLT s/c lwb

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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #14 by sdiesel » Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:18 am

thx for all this
ive got plenty to research now

.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

sdiesel
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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #15 by sdiesel » Sun Oct 16, 2016 12:24 am

well no doggonit i wonder why oem did'nt reverse flow more often.
maybe them tests frenchtown talk about got something to do with it. gonna look.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

sdiesel
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Posts: 700
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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #16 by sdiesel » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:11 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:
sdiesel wrote:
as for picking battles, these words seem strange coming from you. a fellow who has pushed these engines far far beyond any design parameters originally intended.


On the contrary, I am a perfect example of "roads not taken" when it comes to picking which battles not to fight. It has been my quest to drag race on a sportsman level e.t. handicap format using the 300 six. To that end, there have been many decisions made where I had to realize that optimum engine output will have to be reduced in order to have a reliable, consistent combination:

- Removal of crankshaft weight would have improved output at the expense of bearing and crankshaft life.

- Using a production U-flow head would have required extensive welding and other modifications, meaning more between-race maintenance. At the other end of that spectrum a V8 style crossflow head will make gobs of power but they are pricey, unreliable and require many special pieces be fabbed. Thankfully, my one-piece cast iron crossflow head came along that fit neatly between the restrictive thin walled (high maintenance) stock head and the high flowing V8 (high maintenance) crossflow head.

- An all-out Comp style engine making about 150 more HP than mine would mean reinforcing the cylinder walls by filling the water passages. Of course that would mean I can't drive it around the pits, up the return road; would mean a tow vehicle; would mean another crew member.

- Removal of the cooling system and charging system would mean forced cooling between rounds, charging the battery between rounds.

- Methanol instead of race gas would boost my torque but take a toll on engine wear.

I have listed just four items - the crank, the head, the block, and fuel - where compromises were made and battles not fought. I could name dozens of other component choices where both the engine and chassis similar hard choices had to be made that sacrificed performance for reliability, consistency, and ease of maintenance. Sure, I'll never have a hot rod that runs in the sevens. But successes on the race track aside, my engine has been in my drag car for SIX SEASONS! It is coming out this fall for bearing checks, re-ring, and magnaflux checks. I just ran a leakdown check to see how worn out the internal components were. Here are the results:

Cyl #:
1 - 5%
2 - 8%
3 - 5%
4 - 5%
5 - 6%
6 - 6%

Not bad for a six year old racing engine. And nothing there to indicate one end of the engine received less coolant than the other.

Lots of topics discussed here on the forum are "what if" and "why not" subjects and I applaud those who think outside the box. But when it comes to making practical decisions on where to spend my money and where to devote my most precious commodity - my time - I have learned which battles to fight.




whew, i pick to not fight this battle!!!

my needs differ from yours i fight sustained high heat heavy loads, irregular weather lotsa wot for long periods.
a sane man (not me) would use a bigger engine, but i love my six and drive her mercilessly. she will do the job, but am on the hunt to make her job easier.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

arse_sidewards
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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #17 by arse_sidewards » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:09 am

whew, i pick to not fight this battle!!!

my needs differ from yours i fight sustained high heat heavy loads, irregular weather lotsa wot for long periods.
a sane man (not me) would use a bigger engine, but i love my six and drive her mercilessly. she will do the job, but am on the hunt to make her job easier.[/quote]

Two words:

BIGGER
FAN
(and if you have an auto add a bigger cooler)
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

sdiesel
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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #18 by sdiesel » Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:19 am

actually im going to put a 6.9 radiator in this when the 460 radiator craps out. i have the notion that i can use the cooling capacity for a heat exchanger on the turbo, using a ford 6.7 heat exchanger or custom laminova.

its not that i cant keep the coolant in the range. im curious about keeping temps consistant at all cylinders; 1-6 exactly the same.
the davies craig or similar, with a temp sensor near the back is likely the best route; cheapest and simple.
i want to learn cooling anyway so i push this subject.

there was a topic ages ago here and it concerned the "pinging" of cylinder walls from coolant turning to steam and creating small sonic explosions against the water jacket or something like that. it has a clever term to describe it danged if i can find it now.

if i can create a consistant 195 at each combustion chamber.

when the turbo goes on...one fewer issue to deal with.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

arse_sidewards
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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #19 by arse_sidewards » Wed Oct 19, 2016 12:08 pm

sdiesel wrote:actually im going to put a 6.9 radiator in this when the 460 radiator craps out. i have the notion that i can use the cooling capacity for a heat exchanger on the turbo, using a ford 6.7 heat exchanger or custom laminova.

its not that i cant keep the coolant in the range. im curious about keeping temps consistant at all cylinders; 1-6 exactly the same.
the davies craig or similar, with a temp sensor near the back is likely the best route; cheapest and simple.
i want to learn cooling anyway so i push this subject.

there was a topic ages ago here and it concerned the "pinging" of cylinder walls from coolant turning to steam and creating small sonic explosions against the water jacket or something like that. it has a clever term to describe it danged if i can find it now.

if i can create a consistant 195 at each combustion chamber.

when the turbo goes on...one fewer issue to deal with.


cavitation
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #20 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:03 pm

sdiesel wrote:

whew, i pick to not fight this battle!!!

Don't think I'm fighting with you sdiesel - I just enjoy a spirited conversation. I understand your desire to run the six too.

Love ya buddy.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

sdiesel
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Re: can i present a well chewed topic to chew again- cooling

Post #21 by sdiesel » Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:35 pm

a gentle man indeed!
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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