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Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

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worken2much
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Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #1 by worken2much » Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:27 pm

Here's the scoop.

Frenchtown had originally built the first 300 sandwich head. I'll rely on him to set the facts straight if I don't have the story right. I believe when I bought my cylinder head from him it was only the second one, so very unique. Hopefully he still has some pictures he can post of the two halves. As #1, don't have them at my fingertips, and #2, I absolutely suck at the picture posting process for this site.

Anyone who seriously leans on the 300 learns pretty quickly that the head limits what can be done. Like stroking for increased cubic inch. There is NO POINT stroking without improved cfm through the head. So...

Think of slicing, or cutting, two heads into two pieces each, lengthwise, much like a hot dog bun. One head is cut high, one head is cut low. The two thin pieces are discarded, what remains are two pieces, once joined that are in my case, aprx. 3/4" taller than a stock head. We now have enough port height to develop improved flow numbers.

Frenchtown had head #1 joined together by a process known as furnace brazing. Thus the head is "sandwiched" together with a thin layer of bronze, or brazing in between the two halves. Long story, but as far as I can find, this process no longer exists in the United States in conjunction with cast iron. It did when I first obtained the head, but I shelved the project for a period of about two years. In that time the company I was working with folded up. Try as I might, I can not find anyone connected with them. I believe in one of my efforts I spoke with one of the folks that was involved with head #1. At least some of his comments sure made me think so. He stated they used to do this process on cast iron but no longer will, as there is no recourse if the brazed joint doesn't hold.

I may have an alternative process worked out. Only time will tell.

Anyone out there know of a furnace brazer for cast iron?

That's the story as I know it.

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #2 by 67Straightsix » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:05 am

Wow! You have my full and undivided attention :) Did either of the heads get used? If so, how big where the gains in flow numbers? If someone has experience brazing cast, and access to something like a tempering or pottery furnace, with a little experimenting with temperature you should be successful.

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #3 by pmuller9 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:30 am


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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #4 by CNC-Dude » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:56 pm

We used to send our Chevy 6 cylinder heads to Indy Cylinder Heads to have the deck and chambers welded back in them when they were blown out. They furnace brazed them back in and even did some ports for us when they were ported too thin and cracked and leaked water. Don't know if they will still do this or not, but even back in the early 1980's, they were one of the only few that would/could do it. It's not cheap either. Looking at how cheap the aftermarket aluminum Ford small block heads are, it would be very easy to find some of them and section them and weld them back together. It's much cheaper and easier to find aluminum welders than cast iron welders. Just a thought!
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #5 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:14 pm

Yes, those are my photos of my head #2 above, but Worken2much, you are giving me far too much credit for head #1 and the entire concept.

Here's the story as I remember it. Maybe pop some popcorn, crack a cold one and read on:
It started at a custom crankshaft manufacturer - Moldex Tool in Detroit. Ray Gilliam was the founder. They made custom crankshafts for everything from Indy cars to NASCAR to hemi Funny Cars and Top Fuelers and did a lot of low volume jobs for the Big Three too. For some reason in the late '60s they decided to build a 300 six powered Mustang for LSR racing. I don't know if this was a skunkworks project out of FoMoCo or just a private effort. At any rate, as Worken2much noted, the cylinder head flow is the limiting factor in how much power you can make, so they decided to build a sandwich head for their 300. This was not a new concept as the NHRA Pro Stock team of Maskin and Kanners had done a similar project on a pair of Pro Stock AMC cylinder heads with great results. The head #1 got built as described and reportedly ran over 200 mph at Bonneville. I acquired that head in the early '70s and immediately sold it to my good friends John and Ann Peto in Ohio. John was running a 300 powered altered in IHRA competition and was a great innovator in his own right. Ann had won two IHRA Modified Eliminator World Championships in the altered and John wanted something to get a leg up on the competition. His efforts with the sandwich head were inconclusive as the car lost all the bottom end power it had been making. But John told me "...that sucker really came alive at 9000 RPM but by that time we were already in the traps so it did us no good". John went on to develop a Mopar headed 300 and later he and partner Rick Mudge built a motor by splicing together two Mopar aftermarket 4-cylinder sprint car engines to build an awesome 7-second car (2 1/2 cylinders from one welded up to 3 1/2 cylinders of the other!). Anyhow John passed the head #1 on to some racers "out East". That original head stayed on my mind. I photographed it before it went to John. It used 427 FE V8 valves. It seemed to me what was needed was to fill the exhaust ports to raise them up which would enhance the flow velocity and improve scavenging in the overlap phase while improving the efficiency of the exhaust port. Head #1 did not have filled exhaust ports and In my mind they were too big and made an awkward turn. I didn't think the intake needed much change. It was HUGE and provided all the port volume a 50 cubic inch cylinder could use. In my "spare time" I made two sets of blueprints to do another sandwich head. One design transposed the top half directly vertically over the bottom piece. The other design transposed the top half along the valve guide axes such that the final valve seat would be concentric with the original seat but the walls would be offset. I also decided to weld additional material to the port walls to insure a good weld braze bond between the two halves regardless of which direction I decided to go on alignment. I also decided to fill up the bottom of the exhaust port. I sent the two pieces of head #2 to Indy Cylinder Heads in Indianapolis to do the cast iron welding. For reasons better left untold I was not happy with the results of the welding and shelved the project for ten years or so. By that time I was on to the crossflow design which fulfilled all of my needs anyway.

So W2M acquired that head from me. I still believe the sandwich head is viable. In this age of computerized machine tool control I even think that a sandwich head made from two pieces of billet aluminum, CNC'd and dowelled together would also work well. The bottom half could contain the bottom half of the ports and cooling jacket. The top half could contain the top of the ports, guides at a reduced angle, and provisions for shaft-mounted rockers. No coolant holes in the deck surface would be needed, which will eliminate much of the head gasket issues one may encounter.

So I hope W2M completes the head and maybe someone out there will consider other sandwich head possibilities. Maybe even a crossflow design. I envision making a single cylinder prototype for a Briggs & Stratton engine some day to explore the concept.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #6 by worken2much » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:00 pm

Frenchtown,

Appreciate for the back story. Good stuff.

I'm no flow expert but have spent enough time studying and discussing the subject off / on over the years to have a pretty fair understanding. I believe I'll end up with a pretty good piece. Port size is a consideration, but also important is port velocity and a straight path, (as much as possible) into and out of the cylinder.

I spent 3-4 hours last weekend talking with the guy who is doing the port work. I roughed in what I could. Now it's up to the mad genius to do the rest...I'm just a hack by comparison.

High hopes...we'll see what the numbers say. Either way, it's been quite a learning experience. Glad to have done it.

Thanks for all your help along the way.

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #7 by worken2much » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:19 pm

CBC dude,

The v8 composite head requires a new cam blank. The intake valves and exhaust valves will not be in same order as the six. I have to do some more asking but I may have just found a source for blanks last week. Not sure yet.

The class I in intend to compete in requires cast iron head, cast iron blocks and wet sump. All intended to help curb costs. Certainly agree that aluminum would be easier. But class rules paint me into a corner.

Maybe you could whomp up a two piece aluminum head? Certain there would be much interest.

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #8 by CNC-Dude » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:26 pm

I've certainly considered a sandwich style head before for some Flathead guys. It was done back in the 50's, so I don't see why it couldn't be done with a 21st century twist on it.
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #9 by worken2much » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:40 pm

Thought I'd give you folks an update on the long running two piece head project. We achieved a best flow number of 259 cfm at .650 lift with a garden variety 1.94 valve. That's as good as, and better than some, Chevy aftermarket heads with 2.02 valves.

Many thanks to all those that helped along the way.

With displacement at 322 ci from stroking, 13:1 injected methanol, at 6350 rpm the projected torque number is 400 ft lb., projected Hp 450 or a fuzz more. That's a bunch out of 322 cubes.

Can hardly wait to get the pieces together. Like a kid a week before Christmas now.

Bet I make a lot of new friends with the Chevy crowd...

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #10 by jjona5 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:26 pm

How much did you put into this head? I'd love to have an aluminum one though.

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #11 by sandboxer » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:46 am

Any updates, Worken2much?

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #12 by worken2much » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:33 am

Sandboxer,

Just retrieved head last week from forth shop I've had it to in the last two years. Last guy got it done. Now have 294 cfm at .7" lift with 1.94 diameter intake valve.

Still have many items to run down but am finally making progress again. Basically lost all of 2017. I have come to understand that many machine shops will enthusiastically take such a project on but, nothing gets done. When checking upon their progress, often the part(s) are still in the same spot I dropped them off at months earlier. Seems this project is just too far out of the box for most.

Hope to at least have short block together by end of March. Oliver rods, billet main caps, Berry cam all presently secured. Lightened crank being finished up.

Thanks for your interest.

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #13 by sandboxer » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:38 am

That's exciting! Do you have any photos of the process you could share?

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #14 by worken2much » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:17 am

Sandboxer,

Not a whole lot to see just now. I'll get some photos when more things start coming together.

Thanks,
Worken2much
Last edited by worken2much on Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #15 by pmuller9 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:09 pm

worken2much wrote: Just retrieved head last week from forth shop I've had it to in the last two years. Last guy got it done. Now have 294 cfm at .7" lift with 1.94 diameter intake valve.
Worken2much

The V8 boys are going to whine!

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #16 by arse_sidewards » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:58 am

So what was your process for sealing the upper and lower together?

As I recall you were having issues finding anyone in the US who had the capability to furnace braze something.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #17 by worken2much » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:59 am

Have a couple processes I'm working on. Will report once validated. Am certain will be successful in the end.

Pretty confident that there isn't anyone remaining in the continental US that will perform furnace brazing on a cast iron head. I spent a few hundred hours surfing the web & contacting companies all around the country. If you, or anyone else, knows of a source for this process I'm all ears.

Thanks,
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #18 by CNC-Dude » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:55 am

Indy Cylinder Head used to furnace brazen our 6 cylinder heads when a combustion chamber would blow out of them. Don't know if they still do this or not but the did then.
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #19 by arse_sidewards » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:17 pm

worken2much wrote:Have a couple processes I'm working on. Will report once validated. Am certain will be successful in the end.


I suppose you could have it all welded or brazes by hand if the upper/lower design allowed.

A head that was designed from the ground up to be two pieces CNC'd out of bar stock and to have all the sealing surfaces in the same plane could probably be joined by using a machined groove and wire similiar to the way copper O-rings can be used for heads and a wire with a compatible rate of thermal expansion could be used to seal it. With different machining and a lot of praying a sealant/epoxy might seal as well as an O-ring

I don't know if your head design could accommodate welding or if it's rigid enough to use a mechanical seal without leaking water into places.

If you have stuff on the inside that isn't accessible for welding and the design can't be tweaked to sandwich a sealing material between the halves then I really have no idea how you sealed it.

I would really like to know what you're doing before you get the result though because it would be nice to understand what your thought process is before it gets changed by hindsight.
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #20 by worken2much » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:19 pm

CNC,

Indy cylinder head did weld up the exhaust ports on this project. They don't do furnace brazing though. Two different processes per what had been explained to me.

Arse,

If you have a design in mind, get after it.

Thank you,
Worken2much
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #21 by WorldChampGramp » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:10 am

Just read all the threads above and felt compelled to chime in with regard to Moldex Tool aka Dearborn Crankshaft and Bob Gillelan who I met while on a NASCAR crankshaft assignment in 1968 and developed a long standing personal relationship with. Bob was that consummate thinker and tinkerer but he use to cringe whenever I walked in his shop with another six cylinder 'make it better' request. Bob is the one who carved out my ONE & Only 3.75 stroke crankshaft which he machined from a raw forging I supplied that propelled my I/Gas Pinto into the winners circle at the 1978 US Nationals Labor day weekend. You Tube video supplied for your viewing pleasure

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +nationals

For those of you who are curious about the infamous Bob Gillelan a tribute to Bob after his induction in the Michigan Motorsports Hall of Fame follows:

http://www.mmshof.org/inductees/bob-gillelan/

P.S. My personal flow bench work starts next weekend so I will gladly keep you posted on what I hope to offer some rather Stout numbers achieved with a production "as cast" 1972 240 head. Bruce

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #22 by worken2much » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:43 am

World Champ Gramp,

Good to hear that I'm not the only one who gets "the look" when walking through the door at the machine shop.

Very much looking forward to your flow bench results.

Any chance your crank"whittler" is still at it? May need a little help.

Thank you,
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #23 by CNC-Dude » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:57 am

We ran a few forged cranks in our H/MP car, but they broke with fewer passes than the cast cranks did so we always ran the cast cranks afterwards. Even Ford guys that ran forged cranks broke them with fewer passes than we did with cast cranks. So we never saw any benefit to getting custom cranks made, and we were over 600 HP with our 6 cylinder by then and they just became a casualty of war that you were constantly having to replace. That was just the cost of racing at that level.
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #24 by pmuller9 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:20 pm

I would think that a crank made from E4340 with 2.200" rod journals would hold up to limits of the block.

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #25 by CNC-Dude » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:44 pm

The journal overlap kills it when the stroke goes beyond 4" like ours was at these power levels N/A. Even billet can't withstand the harmonics in those scenarios in high RPM and very high compression, forced induction they would last longer because the stresses are much less and the RPM's are also. But even, the Pro Stock and Comp guys today have a quite a few spare billet cranks ready to swap out when the one in the engine begins to stress and crack.
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #26 by pmuller9 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:40 pm

CNC-Dude wrote:The journal overlap kills it when the stroke goes beyond 4" like ours was

What engine are you refereing to with more than a 4" stroke?
and what rpm are you talking about?

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #27 by CNC-Dude » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:08 pm

It was our Chevy 292 6 cylinder. They have a 4.120" stroke. We left the line between 10,500-11,200 RPM, but shifted at 7000 RPM. Our cast cranks only lasted (20) 1/4 mile passes, but have seen some of our Ford competitors with forged cranks only last as little as 15 passes with reportedly much less HP than we were making. We averaged 8-10 NHRA national events a year with between 8-10 passes at each event. So we were replacing cranks about every 2 races, or about 5 per year.
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #28 by pmuller9 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:11 am

That's good information.
It looks similar to the amount of Ford 300 six forged steel cranks racing failures back in the 1970s.

In all our years of racing we have never broken a crank made from high end alloys.
Our SBF 4.00" stroke 2400 hp turbo engine shifted at 8600 and 8400 at the traps but more importantly our 4.75" stroke 632 cid nitrous and 5.5" stroke 732 cid 2000+ hp multi stage nitrous engine never had crank failures.

The crank material makes a difference so I submit once again that a 3.98" stroke 300 crank with the larger 2.2" rod journals with the proper selection of alloy will outperform the block.
If you wanted to play it safe you could do a WorldChampGramp move and drop the stroke to 3.75"
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #29 by CNC-Dude » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:02 am

Its no secret that forced induction engines can make more HP with less parts breakage than high HP naturally aspirated engines. FTF and Rich in past years posted in depth articles of Bruce's I/Gas Pinto, and it mentioned that while his engine did have forged cranks in them, they still only lasted an average of 15 passes. The magic number for 6 cylinders seemed to be around 2HP/cubic inch N/A. Once you started zeroing in on that number, the engines became expendable and parts breakers. Bruce's engine having the hybrid 351C head on it in I/Gas easily fell into that 2HP/cubic inch zone, and caused him to have the same issues as we did, even though he had a forged crank and less stroke. It still didn't remove enough of the other components that cause destructive harmonics in engines with long cranks to make them live longer, like ultra high compression or twilight zone RPM. There are numerous guys over on Inliner's that have high boosted 292's in the race cars making almost 1000 HP. By replacing ultra high compression with boost, and operating the engines in a more realistic RPM range makes them live much longer, those engines are still time bombs at that power level, and I wouldn't want to be standing along the fence when they made a pass.

Many of the Ford guys that raced in H/MP as we did, didn't seem to have the same crank issue we did because they couldn't make the same HP we were making with the production cylinder head. Again, falling short of the 2HP/cubic inch mark kept them from having those problems, even though they did have ultra high compression and RPM, they didn't have the HP to cause all three of those things to be a problem for them. They might have been lucky to obtain 1.5HP/cubic inch with their combos back then, it still didn't create a parts breaker.

When Modified Production ended for us in 1982, we immediately moved into Comp Eliminator with the same engine and our crankshaft life immediately improved by only having to replace cranks to 1 per year with the same number of National Event races and laps made per race. The difference was removing one of the damaging components in inlines that makes harmonics so devastating, and that was insane RPM. In our Chevy II that weighed 3160 lbs, we needed that crazy ultra high RPM to launch the car, but when we put that engine in a rear engine Comp dragster that only weighed 1500 lbs, we only needed to leave the line at 5500 RPM, and crank breakage fell to almost a non-issue.

Some people may not see this excessive parts breakage as acceptable, but it just happened to be a necessary part of racing at those levels we and others were prepared to make. If we hadn't been so successful and still had the expense of breakage, we probably would have hung it up long before that. We only raced for 13 years, but we won 11 NHRA National Championships in 3 different classes. One of only 4 people in the entire NHRA history to ever do that(win championships in 3 different classes), and broke and set over 40 division and class records. So I guess it was worth it.
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #30 by pmuller9 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:18 am

Would it be good to consider that those using a converter would not have the high rpm shock load at launch compared to those using a clutch and might be a significant factor in crank failure?
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #31 by CNC-Dude » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:44 am

Oh absolutely! The converter seems to act like another dampener to absorb shock and harmonics that can kill a stick car. Great point and observation. :thumbup:
We were on the ragged edge for sure and so were others. If it wasn't the crank, it was kicking a rod and piston out of the side of the block or splitting the block longways down the deck or a combustion chamber collapsing because the head had been brazed and welded so many times it was just used up. We were way past a safe level the blocks and cranks and heads could handle. When you've seen these engines come apart in a bad way like they do, you don't want to be standing by the fence spectating when they make a pass.LOL
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #32 by worken2much » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:05 pm

Gentlemen,

Priceless information, thank you for passing it along. Wonderfully interesting cast vs forged results.

I'd been vacillating on how hard to turn my sprinter motor & consequently how much steam to generate with this two piece head. I made up my mind after reading the most recent exchanges. I'll keep it down to 6,500 rpm max & 450ish Hp levels to start with. That will also allow using hydraulic lifters.

I've wondered a couple times, about adding a second balancer on the output end of the crankshaft. Sprinters just have a small diameter splined coupler there. No flywheel, pressure plate or clutch. Many report various flywheel / crank issues with the 300 when the performance is dramatically increased. Don't want the added rotating mass but was wondering if a second balancer would help improve the longevity of the crankshaft? Just thinking...

Thanks again,
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #33 by CNC-Dude » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:30 pm

Lightening the crank can help also. Just picture these 6 cylinder cranks(Ford, Chevy and Chrysler) as being like a piece of spaghetti(unboiled). The more mass the cranks have ie. counterweights and rods/pistons, the more the crank flexes as it spins the higher it spins, helping to induce the dreaded harmonic shake. The more mass you can eliminate, the less the crank will flex at the same RPM as with a heavy mass. There are formulas to calculate the first, second, third degree harmonic RPMs. If you feel like doing a search online to find out, this can also help you know what RPM to stay away from for your engine. Either turn the engine above it by several hundred RPM or below it by that same amount to stay away from these harmful harmonics. You wont eliminate them, but you can find out where they are and keep the engine out of those ranges.
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worken2much
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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #34 by worken2much » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:17 pm

CNC,

Resonant frequency is something I've dealt with in my work, (rock crushing) so I understand what you are referring too. As a vibrating screen comes up to speed, it will pass through a critical rpm band where they shake wildly, like four directions at once. If left at that critical speed, they would self destruct in a few short minutes. A normal service life for a screen is usually measured in decades.

I'll pick the crank up next week. When I dropped it off to be balanced, 20 lbs had been taken off. More was removed to get it back in balance, no idea at this time how much. Rod journals ground to 2.000 sbc. I got a deal on a set of used Oliver rods. That what their big end was, so here I am.

Build will have include lighter pistons. Approximately 1.2"" compression height. Racetech hollow domes w/ .927 pins.

I'll hunt up the formulas you reference. Certain to be of much interest.

Thank you,
Worken2much
Rule #1. Six Cylinder Racers Have Longer Cranks.
Rule #2. Unless your given name is Richard...don't be a dick.

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #35 by mrgoob » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:03 pm

worken2much wrote:Have a couple processes I'm working on. Will report once validated. Am certain will be successful in the end.

Pretty confident that there isn't anyone remaining in the continental US that will perform furnace brazing on a cast iron head. I spent a few hundred hours surfing the web & contacting companies all around the country. If you, or anyone else, knows of a source for this process I'm all ears.

Thanks,
Worken2much



Have you tried Locknstitch? http://www.locknstitch.com/furnace-braz ... pair.html#
From their site:We are ISO 9001:2008 certified and work on all castings including automotive engines (high-performance and antique).

Hope that helps.

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #36 by worken2much » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:17 pm

mrgoob,

Just off the phone with those folks. Gent I talked to understood what I was looking for. They do not do such work. Suggested Quanti-Serve, a company in VanCouver, BC. I have spoken to Quanti-Serve before, wasn't a viable option due to cost involved. They were not setup for one off pieces either.

What your guy does is furnace welding with an Oxy-Ac torch. That is what Indy Cylinder Head in Indianapolis & Shell Welding in Iowa do. The Furnace brazing is a different process & is a lost art here in the USA as far as I can tell.

Thank you for your efforts none the less.

Worken2much
Rule #1. Six Cylinder Racers Have Longer Cranks.
Rule #2. Unless your given name is Richard...don't be a dick.

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #37 by mrgoob » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:15 pm

You may have seen these already. Just trying to help.

http://southeastcylinderhead.com/cylind ... -services/
We don’t have our furnace anymore but we do have an outstanding individual who does it for us.

http://www.brazingserviceinc.com/services.html

few on this page: https://www.thomasnet.com/northern-ohio ... 882-1.html

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #38 by worken2much » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:38 pm

mrgoob,

Appreciate it but the Thomas register is one of the places I went when I was looking for furnace brazing companies. I recall several of the names listed. Not saying there isn't someone I missed but, I looked pretty damn hard. Called & e-mailed all over the US over a period of 2 - 3 months. As many people as I talked to in the business, someone would have known about company xyz that performed such a process. That referral never happened.

Long story but I had been lined up with a father / son company in Madison, Wisconsin that did furnace brazing when I shelved the project for about two years. In that length of time, they went out of business & fell off the face of the earth. The other solid lead I had was a company in Michigan, they sold out to the company in Vancouver, BC mentioned previously. I think these little cottage industry shops were just hanging on. When the auto makers nearly tanked back when, that was the end. At least, that's how I have it figured. Who really knows?

The process I have worked out is to use full length, press fit dowels in three, overdrilled head bolt holes. These dowels will align the two sections while still permitting the head bolts to pass through. Before pressing the two halves together, Loctite 218 anerobic sealant was applied to the mating surfaces. This process tested leak free to 8 psi. I'll also add Mend-Tite to the cooling system. Mend-Tite is a sealant that was originally developed by Cummins. It does not have any solid particles like Bars-Leak or Silver Solder to plug coolant passages in heater cores, or to lay as lumps in the bottom radiator tank. I have personal experience with this stuff, it flat works.

In my application, I will also drill the radiator cap & vent the coolant to a catch can . There won't be any positive pressure in the cooling system to pump water into a cylinder should a leak occur. I don't anticipate over heating issues as I'll be running Methanol which burns cooler than gasoline.

Anyway, that's the plan to start with. We'll see how it goes.

Thanks again,
Worken2much
Rule #1. Six Cylinder Racers Have Longer Cranks.
Rule #2. Unless your given name is Richard...don't be a dick.

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #39 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:03 am

I so do want your project to work out to completion. Based on the flow numbers you supplied you are going to be very pleased with the results.

I also run a perforated cap (1/8") and a zero pressure coolant system into an overflow tank with good results. Do not be alarmed when coolant accumulates in the tank during operation. I used to think it was the head gasket seal starting to let go, but what I think is happening is localized boiling over the combustion chambers forces some coolant out. I'm sure the electric bilge pump I use to circulate water through the engine does not flow as much as the original pump, which washes away and re-condenses these steam bubbles. Certainly running on alky will help.

In order to keep the sandwich joint intact I would be tempted to torque the head down very slowly, in small increments, using extreme pressure grease lubricant on the bolt / stud threads and also the nuts and washers. Good luck.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #40 by arse_sidewards » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:42 am

worken2much wrote:
The process I have worked out is to use full length, press fit dowels in three, overdrilled head bolt holes. These dowels will align the two sections while still permitting the head bolts to pass through. Before pressing the two halves together, Loctite 218 anerobic sealant was applied to the mating surfaces. This process tested leak free to 8 psi. I'll also add Mend-Tite to the cooling system. Mend-Tite is a sealant that was originally developed by Cummins. It does not have any solid particles like Bars-Leak or Silver Solder to plug coolant passages in heater cores, or to lay as lumps in the bottom radiator tank. I have personal experience with this stuff, it flat works.

In my application, I will also drill the radiator cap & vent the coolant to a catch can . There won't be any positive pressure in the cooling system to pump water into a cylinder should a leak occur. I don't anticipate over heating issues as I'll be running Methanol which burns cooler than gasoline.

Anyway, that's the plan to start with. We'll see how it goes.

Thanks again,
Worken2much


Here's my disorganized set of thoughts:

How did you arrive at that choice of sealant?

I looked at the specs for 218. It reports an increase in strength with 200+ hr exposure to automotive coolant @22C which is nice.

It also reports a pretty sharp increase then consistent decline in strength beyond ~200hr of exposure to temperatures somewhere greater than 120C and before 150C. It makes no mention of whether this is a cumulative effect or if constant exposure. Obviously that won't matter if you live life 1/4mi at a time but if continuous exposure is not requires that could become an issue in circle track. The exhaust ports would be my concern.

There is no mention of whether these changes in strength have any trade-off with how brittle it is. Since all their tests refer to bolt torque that likely that's how they're comparing strength.

All their tests are for M10 bolt torqued to 40nm. Did you run the numbers for the pressure between the threaded surfaces in that case? How does that compare to the pressure from being clamped by head bolts?

I've got no experience in this field but with just three dowels and the clamping force of the head to locate the parts (and the forced induction guys have pretty much proven the amount of clamping force on the head to be insufficient). Without some mechanical joint constraining movement I'd be worried that the slight flex of the lower half of the head under combustion loads would cause movement on the surfaces of the water jacket seam nearby and you won't be able to get many passes in without leaks.

I'm no mechanical engineer but my gut tells me an adhesive would be a better choice than a thread locker for sealing the kind of face between two heads. The way their data sheet talks about the curing process makes me wonder if this works as a thread locker simply by filling available space then curing solid and then relying on the roughness of the threaded parts to provide mechanical resistance to movement (imagine sticking a grease covered auger in wet concrete, even if the concrete doesn't stick to the auger you can't un-thread it once the concrete cures). That kind of cured product could certainly provide a good seal but I don't know if it's durable enough for a cylinder head that could be vibrating/flexing god knows what ways as you move through resonant speeds. That said, the point of thread lockers is to withstand that sort of vibration and flexing, for example, drive shaft flanges, the flywheel every externally balanced engine, etc. I'd be happier knowing that the sealant actually sticks to the mating surfaces though

I think it's possible that what you described will be more than adequate. I really have no idea which is why I'd prefer to throw every trick in the book at it in terms of sealing surface design, alignment and sealant choice. Since your head can be taken apart fairly easily this presents an amazing opportunity to test and refine various methods of sealing.

Here's the pdf for Loctite 218 for anyone wondering (you'll get an expired cert warning because they're lazy/sloppy and it expired in October 2017):

https://tds.us.henkel.com/NA/UT/HNAUTTD ... 218-EN.pdf
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: Sandwich head. Or two piece head.

Post #41 by worken2much » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:08 am

Frenchtown,

The two piece head will be successful, one way or the other, I have zero doubt. Tremendously appreciative of your involvement.

I would also like to thank Pmuller9 & Cnc dude. Am very grateful to have benefited from the collective, real world experiences offered. Wonderful stuff, all of it, absolutely priceless.

Now understanding that the cylinder head is only the first road block. Followed next by the crankshaft and the block. None of which is a problem provided enough / unlimited resources. Not so in my case. I'll aim for 450 HP @ 6,500 RPM. That will tax my check book enough and challenge my driving abilities plenty. It'll also worry the crap out of the sbc crowd.

See you at the races.
Worken2much
Rule #1. Six Cylinder Racers Have Longer Cranks.
Rule #2. Unless your given name is Richard...don't be a dick.

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