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Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

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Wesman07
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #51 by Wesman07 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:29 pm

Thank you, that one gets me every time. So when the vacuum drops to zero.. how does the computer know that this new engine wants more fuel? Will the manifold pressure be different?

If it was a carburetor, I would have to up the main jet
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #52 by pmuller9 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:42 pm

The vacuum will be different if the engines volumetric efficiency is different.
Also doesn't the fuel pressure change with manifold vacuum on your engine?

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #53 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:45 pm

Manifold pressure is the inverse of manifold vacuum. If vacuum is zero then pressure in the manifold is greater. Removing the restriction(s) in the inlet ports will increase volumetric efficiency, lowering the vacuum in the intake manifold a lower RPM, thus increasing manifold pressure at an earlier RPM. The pulse width that the injector is "on" for will rise earlier, hence the possibility of the injector running out of capacity at a lower RPM than it was designed for.
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #54 by pmuller9 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:29 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:The pulse width that the injector is "on" for will rise earlier, hence the possibility of the injector running out of capacity at a lower RPM than it was designed for.

At low rpm there is more injector "ON" time available than at a higher rpm so for a given "ON" time pulse width the duty cycle is lower at low rpm versus higher rpm.
The system "crashes" when the time period becomes too short (as rpm increases) to allow the necessary pulse width.

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #55 by Wesman07 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:56 pm

Ahh! Ok got it now. Thank you guys.
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #56 by Wesman07 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:06 pm

Does anyone know the stock valve timing events? The link in the facts section is not working.
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #57 by pmuller9 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:40 pm

Stock cam specs are 268* advertised duration, 192* .050" duration, .397" valve lift, 110* LSA retarded 4 degrees with the intake lobe center at 114* ATDC.

268* timing specs.
Intake opens 20* BTDC and closes 68* ABDC
Exhaust opens 60* BBDC and closes 28* ATDC

192* timing specs:
Intake opens 18* ATDC and closes 30* ABDC
Exhaust opens 22* BBDC and closes 10* BTDC

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #58 by Wesman07 » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:00 pm

Thank you. I just downloaded a desktop dyno. I'm hoping this can me make the decision on "is it worth it?".

Stock valve size is 1.78 and 1.6"
Intake flows around 150 cfm?
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #59 by Wesman07 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:51 am

Ok I found a great thread with the port flow numbers, and plugged it into desktop dyno 2000. The numbers are surprisingly accurate!
viewtopic.php?t=47616

Stock 300 EFI

Peak torque 274 @ 2,000 rpm
Peak Hp 156 @ 3,500 rpm

I then plugged in the 9.4:1 compression, ported EFI head flow numbers, high flow muffler with manifold, and the Howards 288 custom cam.. I would like to double check these numbers with you PMuller.

Seat to Seat
LCA 110
Intake center line 106
Intake duration 288
exhaust duration 256
IVO 38
IVC 70
EVO 62
EVC 14

Peak torque 278 @ 2,000-2500 rpm
Peak Hp 166 @ 3,500 rpm

14lb injectors at 90% duty cycle will max out at 170 hp.

The 270 degree cam would break the 300 lb mark and keep the peak hp at 170.

Seat to Seat
LCA 110
Intake center line 106
Intake duration 170
exhaust duration 256
IVO 29
IVC 61
EVO 62
EVC 14

The only thing I found odd was the big jump from hp manifolds to small tube headers.

Merry Christmas All :beer:
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #60 by pmuller9 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:50 pm

The valve timing events you listed are correct.

The .050" duration specs are dominate over the advertised duration specs when calculating torque versus rpm.
Do another run using the .050" duration specs for the stock cam and the aftermarket cams.

Did you also enter in the .444" valve lift for the Howard cam?

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #61 by Wesman07 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:04 pm

This is really interesting to see. These base numbers might be a little high, but making adjustments such as advancing the cam reacts exactly how FTF described "rocking the torque curve on its peak".

Here are some more runs.

Stock EFI 300 with the .50 cam specs

294 @ 2,000
151hp @ 3,500

Stock EFI with Headers and high flow muffler

330 @ 2,000
170hp @ 3,500

Stock EFI with just high flow mufflers

305 @ 2,000
158hp @ 3,500

Stock EFI with just high flow mufflers and cam advanced 4 degrees

306 @ 2,000
286 @ 2,500

153hp @ 3,500

Custom Howard's cam at 50, 9.4:1, ported efi head, high flow mufflers
307 @ 2,000
295 @ 2,500

168 hp @ 3500

Custom Howard's cam at 50, 9.4:1, ported efi head, high flow mufflers and headers

334 @ 2,000
315 @ 2,500

182hp @ 3,500

Custom Howard's cam at 50, 9.4:1, ported CARB head, high flow mufflers and headers

334 @2,000
212hp @ 4,000
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #62 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:30 pm

sigh
We sure could use a higher flowing cylinder head.
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #63 by Wesman07 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:36 pm

I couldn't agree more. We have so many sharp guys in this community, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. Is it a fiancial or design issue??
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #64 by pmuller9 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:18 pm

Wesman07 wrote:This is really interesting to see. These base numbers might be a little high, but making adjustments such as advancing the cam reacts exactly how FTF described "rocking the torque curve on its peak".

Good work!
Don't forget that the engine ratings advertise for the stock engine are net and the Dyno numbers are gross.

Do you think the changes are worth it?

Wesman07 wrote:I couldn't agree more. We have so many sharp guys in this community, I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. Is it a fiancial or design issue??

It is almost always investment versus sales.

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #65 by Wesman07 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:10 pm

Thank you!

Running these theoretical dynos answered a ton of questions I had and sparked some new ones. It seems that there are some pretty clear lines drawn. If I can assume these number are fairly accurate, and that i need the limit the hp to 170.. headers are my best option. If the header numbers are inflated, the cam and compression increase will increase the torque at 2500 and raise the hp a noticeable amount.

Custom cam/ compression bump
307 @ 2000
295 @ 2500

168 hp @ 3500

Stock motor with headers

331 @ 2000
303 @ 2500

166 hp @ 3500

Option 2 is all of it with a carb head and the stand alone and gain about 50 hp.

option 3 turbo
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #66 by pmuller9 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:48 am

I still like option 3. The torque, well lets just that you may end up with a permanent grin stuck on your face.
If you run a boost controller you can set it for minimum boost when someone else is driving.

For ease of construction, new HD exhaust manifolds are available on Ebay as new casting runs are completed.
Just a short "J" pipe with T4 flange and the turbo is mounted.

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #67 by Wesman07 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:36 pm

Well it would be foolish of me not to weigh out option three. How can we do this keeping the same basic principles. Simple, reliable, cost effective and a truck motor... that is used like a truck. Cruse at 2-2500 rpm
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #68 by pmuller9 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:53 pm

The turbocharged engine is more efficient as it is a closed loop system where some of the exhaust energy that would have been wasted out the tail pipe gets recycled back into the engine.
The wasted energy added back into the engine is seen when pumping losses due to the intake stroke working against the intake manifold vacuum is replaced by boost pressure that helps pump the engine.

The compression ratio is not increased and depending on intercooler size and boost levels there may need to be slight reduction maybe to 8.5:1

Forged piston recommended. Cam profile LSA goes to 114 LSA and the intake advertised duration can be pulled back.
Exhaust duration becomes less than the intake duration.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qufkzkwyxoz8o ... m.jpg?dl=0

Same head considerations. The better the heads flow the more power you can make with less boost.

Using no more than a 49 -52mm turbo (Compressor inducer size) significant boost should be available well before 2000 rpm.

Use your 2000 Dyno and add some boost to your previous configurations.

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #69 by Wesman07 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:11 pm

It's not as simple as adding boost, I would need things like flow numbers, surge flow, pressure ratio, intercooler percent and efficiency.

There is a list of turbos to pick from, but I would not know what to pick
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #70 by pmuller9 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:16 pm

A Garrett GT3071R would be close.
Surge Flow at 15 lb of boost or a pressure ratio of 2 is 12.5 lbs/min
Intercooler 60%

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #71 by Wesman07 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:27 pm

The list of garretts are

T45 48-9
T51 42-3
44-2
48-10
50- 4
54-3
Tmf55 50 65
To4b 60 50
Tp30 30 52
Tv45 48 65
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #72 by pmuller9 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:36 pm

Try the T04B 60-50

Do they have any Borg Warner listed?

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #73 by Wesman07 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:00 pm

Warner - ishi?

Rhb5 311a and 393b
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #74 by Wesman07 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:03 pm

Garrett 60/50 @10 psi
Intercooler at 60%
Compression at 8.7:1
Ported EFI head
Cower cam

373 @ 2500
220hp @ 4000
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #75 by pmuller9 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:16 pm

Ok So the Dyno software is dropping the VE at higher rpm because of the shorter exhaust duration.
Now try the run again using the same exhaust lobe as the intake lobe.

Intake and exhaust advertised 268*
Intake and exhaust .050" duration 210*
Valve lift for both .448"
LSA 112*
Advance cam 4 degrees with intake lobe center at 108 ATDC

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #76 by Wesman07 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:43 pm

With the cam change:

382 @ 2500
230 hp @ 4000

The graph is showing peak VE at 3500 rpm and 16.8 psi which is 95%

Manifold pressure is 15.7 psi @2000 rpm and peaking just above 16.8 psi at 5,000 rpm
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #77 by Wesman07 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:39 am

I know I've seen numbers higher than this. Are these numbers where they should be?

I'd like to put together three theoretical fuel injection build of different levels. That way when new members come to the forum, they can get a good idea of realistic power numbers and costs, and what's involved to make the power they need.
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #78 by pmuller9 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:50 pm

Here's what I show with a fully ported big valve carb head, more aggressive cam, with peak VE between 3000 and 3500 at 90%, 10 psi of boost.
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarke ... sin=92044&

Take the VE numbers from the Dyno 2000 under Naturally Aspirated conditions and plug them into MatchBot for boosted results.

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #79 by Wesman07 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:18 pm

With your turbo cam and totally stock EFI motor...

421 @ 3000
366hp @ 4000

Would this motor hold up for 150k-200k?
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #80 by pmuller9 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:50 pm

Add coated or anodized forged pistons and stellite exhaust valves with hard exhaust seat inserts in the head and it will be very reliable.
A good high pressure film oil like Gibbs Driven goes without saying.

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #81 by Wesman07 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:02 am

I'm interested. I will leave it at that.

I would like to conclude the power options with the 87-95 map EFI motors. I put these into three categories based off of power, price and the level of involvement. The intent is to build a strong and reliable truck motor. All figures are based off of desktop dyno 2000 with real head flow numbers and cam specs. Torque curve start at 2,000 rpm on this program, which should be the peak.

For a base line, here are the numbers at the crank ( stock motor/ mufflers/ no accessories):

294 @ 2000
276 @ 2500
260 @ 3000
227 @ 3500 /151hp @ 3500

If you have a running motor and want to stick with bolt on's... this is you best bet.

level 1:
Small tube headers
low restriction muffler
Advance the cam 4* ( to a 110* Intake Lobe Center)
1.7 rockers

332 @ 2000
304 @ 2500
283 @ 3000
255 @ 3500 / 169hp @ 3500

If you are building a motor, want to keep the factory fuel system and don't want to deal with headers... this a a great option.

level 2:
EFI manifolds with low restriction muffler
9.4:1 compression
Howard's custom cam (1hs206278-2 intake lobe/ 1hf205280 exhaust lobe @110 LSA)

308 @ 2000
297 @ 2500
285 @ 3000
255 @ 3500 / 170hp @ 3500

The idea behind level 1 and 2 is building torque early and limit the hp to 170. 170 hp is the limit for the 14lbs injectors at 55psi. Sure you could slap larger injectors in, but you probably wont be happy with your results. An aftermarket stand alone runs between $500- $1,000 which puts this build into the third category. The limit to level three is the cylinder head.

Level 3:
Stinger Pimp computer (stand alone)
Howard's custom cam (1hs206278-2 intake lobe/ 1hf205280 exhaust lobe @110 LSA)
9.4:1 compression
lightly ported EFI head
1.7:1 rockers

337 @ 2000
322 @ 2500
308 @ 3000
288 @ 3500
253 @ 4000 / 193hp @ 4000
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #82 by pmuller9 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:22 pm

Thank You for taking the time to run and post the various combinations for comparison.

Would you do me a favor and run my last engine build.
Please include the torque at 2000 rpm along with peak torque and horsepower.
There is something I may want to point out.

Fully ported carb head with 2.02" intake and 1.60" exhaust valve
Cam 288/288, 232/232, .534"/.534", 112 LSA
Offy C manifold with 650 carb
Full tube headers

Thank You

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #83 by Wesman07 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:22 am

Absolutly. Thanks for saving me a lot of time, money and frustration.

This program runs the cam at seat to seat or .050". So would that be 232 intake/ exhaust duration @ .050? And where would the lobe center line be? 112?
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #84 by pmuller9 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:28 am

Yes The .050" is 232 on both intake and exhaust and the LSA is 112 degrees
Thanks

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #85 by Wesman07 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:29 pm

248 @ 2000
263 @ 2500
273 @ 3000
290 @ 3500
300 @ 4000
302 @ 4500
288 @ 5000 275hp @ 5000

That is with 8.7:1 static compression
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #86 by pmuller9 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:06 pm

I forgot to give you the SCR, sorry about that.
The compression ratio is 10:1

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #87 by Wesman07 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:25 pm

282 @ 2000
296 @ 2500
299 @ 3000
308 @ 3500
313 @ 4000
310 @ 4500
294 @ 5000 / 280hp
267 @ 5500 / 279hp
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #88 by Wesman07 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:25 pm

That is with a 4" bore 3.98" stroke

Long tube headers with mufflers
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #89 by pmuller9 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:27 pm

Thank You
This post has nothing to do with the original intent of this thread of staying within the limits of the stock EFI system.

Wesman07 wrote:282 @ 2000
296 @ 2500
299 @ 3000
308 @ 3500
313 @ 4000
310 @ 4500
294 @ 5000 / 280hp
267 @ 5500 / 279hp


OK So here an important observation.
No matter what the Naturally Aspirated combination the 300 always produces good torque from 2000 rpm.

Here is an engine with a cam that has 40 degrees more .050" duration than the stock cam.
Torque at 2000 rpm is not much less than the stock engine but the torque just runs away from all the other combinations after 3000 rpms
Notice the flat torque curve from 2000 rpm to 5000 rpm with the big cam, reworked head and all the other changes compared to any other N/A combination.
This engine still idled at 650 rpm with some lope but pulled 17 inches of vacuum at 800 rpm.
This combination will almost work for any application on the road.

The point is sometimes we get wrapped up looking at small cams when in most cases a larger duration cam will still have enough low end torque for the job and supply a wider power band making more horsepower.

That's why if you ask FTF about cam size, he probably will say, Put the biggest road cam in that you can find.

I'm interested on your evaluation also as you may see things I'm missing and provide better details.

Thanks again for spending the extra time.

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #90 by Wesman07 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:45 pm

Ok I see your point. I do remember reading posts where FTF said he never noticed a decrease in low end torque with a large cam. No mater what, the torque curve always stays pretty flat. I guess it has a lot more to do with the engine foundation than I had thought.

The difference from 280lbs to 330lbs @ 2,000rpm is much more noticeable in a truck application though. That is the reason I would only consider three truck motor platforms... a square 4" six, a square 4" v8 or a turbo diesel.

You really got me thinking about my next build. For the amount of time and money that I would need to put into the head and computer, I might as well add boost. It would be very "industrial". Manifolds, simple looking, strong and near indestructible.
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #91 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:37 pm

Yes, what this engine really needs is for somebody to offer a good, well designed, stainless steel exhaust manifold / header for turbocharger applications.
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #92 by Wesman07 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:21 pm

It sounds like we need to put our heads together, design some parts and make some small production runs. The aftermarket performance parts are what will keep these engines out of the scrap yard.

We have engineers, mechanics, machinists, heck.. you helped design/test these motors. It may be a fairly small market, but a market non the less. We just need to start small with things like an exhaust manifold and one day maybe we will have a good flowing head?
With the Internet connecting us enthusiasts, its more than possible. We just have to start making moves
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #93 by pmuller9 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:16 am

A 321 Stainless Steel, 6 into 1 merge collector, 1 5/8 primary, double slip is around $650.
Then there is the head flange, primary tubes and T4 flange all in 321 Stainless.
A turbo Stainless Steel long tube header will have some significant cost to it.
Not usually a problem with Racers but might be a bit much for average street person excluding Ramian17. :D

FTF brought this up where the intake and exhaust manifold would mount to a common flange which would have much better support than the straddled washer arrangement.

Hope this isn't too far off topic.

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #94 by Wesman07 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:24 pm

I am not sure I have this right. You are saying the intake and exhaust manifold would bolt to one flange, that would then get bolted to the block?
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #95 by pmuller9 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:36 pm

Yes, the intake manifold runners and the header primary tubes are welded to the same one piece flange that bolts to the head.
The intake runners could be short with an outer flange just like the bottom half of the stock EFI intake.
This would allow interchangeable upper plenums for different applications.

Stainless Steel is not a very good conductor of heat so I don't think there would be a big problem with heat transfer from the exhaust primary tubes to the intake runners through the common flange especially if a metal type gasket was used that would heat sink the flange to the head.

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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #96 by Wesman07 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:09 pm

It would have to be a thick flange that partial slips over the two manifold. It would be welded from the inside.

It would be a pain in the butt to weld from the out side with the runners being so close together.

A bolt on option is possible, but would add another gasket to fail.
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Re: Setting up a stock efi motor to run on 91 octane

Post #97 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:46 pm

pmuller9 wrote:...the intake and exhaust manifold would mount to a common flange which would have much better support than the straddled washer arrangement.


Yes, that would be the hot setup. Otherwise I would worry about the loads put on the clamping bolts at high boost levels.
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