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300 rebuild project

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pmuller9
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #151 by pmuller9 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:22 pm

Nice!
Those round beads around the runner inlets will help with flow.

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #152 by brandoncw » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:32 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Nice!
Those round beads around the runner inlets will help with flow.

Thanks, i got two birds with one stone, sealed the plenum to the runners and got a nice transition between the parts
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #153 by brandoncw » Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:11 pm

I found out i can have things powder coated at work for a very reasonable price, 5 bucks per hook to hang it. Im limited on color choices though. The colors availiable are black, orange, yellow, and grey.

Im thinking to do a black and orange paint job on the engine. Black block and head. And the pan, pushrod cover, and valve cover painted in orange.
Or maybe a black and chrome (or black chrome) paint scheme
Here is a black and orange example (I know, I know, its a chevy)
52743d737ea5f1d89f968792962c7254.jpg


Here is an example of black chrome compared to regular chrome
Black Chrome.jpg
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #154 by brandoncw » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:26 pm

FTF, I rethought the idea of building my own frame from the ground up. I figured it would be a long time before the engine is done, so I would have plenty of time to get a decent dc tig or mig welder, and a manual tubing bender. do you think a solid axle rear would be best or something like a independent rear out of a 99-04 or 2015 mustang for example?
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86f250straight6
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #155 by 86f250straight6 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:11 pm

If you have access to or purchase a cheap buzz box like a lincoln tombstone or such that is dc capable, all you need to buy is an ebay tig torch with manual gas valve and a bottle of argon and you can be making some really nice welds just doing scratch start tig. Its not as nice or adjustable as a miller syncrowave or even a dynasty, but it seems you have a talent for welding so you could probably be producing solid welds within an hour or 2
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #156 by brandoncw » Sun Apr 29, 2018 2:39 pm

86f250straight6 wrote:If you have access to or purchase a cheap buzz box like a lincoln tombstone or such that is dc capable, all you need to buy is an ebay tig torch with manual gas valve and a bottle of argon and you can be making some really nice welds just doing scratch start tig. Its not as nice or adjustable as a miller syncrowave or even a dynasty, but it seems you have a talent for welding so you could probably be producing solid welds within an hour or 2


Ive thought about that, But everlast has an AC/DC TIG/Stick welder for like $700, I'll probalby end up getting that. They are supposed to be really good machines and are much cheaper than a Miller or Lincoln. Then all I'll need is a Argon bottle, some tungsten, filler rods, stick rods and I'll be well on my way to making some side cash and building a frame
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #157 by 86f250straight6 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:09 pm

Ive heard good things about those machines. That should do the job and then some. The thing to watch is the duty cycle, the cheaper machines are a little lighter and more sensitive to alot of heat from continuous welding. As long as you give it some cooldown time in between big welds it will be fine.

Plus with ac you can do aluminum if it has an arc start. Was that manifold you built done with a spoolgun or tig?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #158 by guhfluh » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:27 pm

I'd go grey on the engine and black chrome on the accessories.

The Apha TIG is supposed to be real nice for the money also.
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #159 by brandoncw » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:36 pm

86f250straight6 wrote:Ive heard good things about those machines. That should do the job and then some. The thing to watch is the duty cycle, the cheaper machines are a little lighter and more sensitive to alot of heat from continuous welding. As long as you give it some cooldown time in between big welds it will be fine.

Plus with ac you can do aluminum if it has an arc start. Was that manifold you built done with a spoolgun or tig?

It was done with tig.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #160 by brandoncw » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:37 pm

guhfluh wrote:I'd go grey on the engine and black chrome on the accessories.

The Apha TIG is supposed to be real nice for the money also.


Hm, that actually might look really good on a black frame :hmmm:
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #161 by brandoncw » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:59 am

So, since there is still that aweful thing called a budget, im just gonna do orange and black. Besides, I really like that color combo and could translate that combo easlily to the rest of the build. Ive got one carb coming in the mail, only one because i can finish the intake with just one and my machinist would probably like to get paid soon, hes been holding my finished block for about a week
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #162 by Wesman07 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:16 am

brandoncw wrote:FTF, I rethought the idea of building my own frame from the ground up. I figured it would be a long time before the engine is done, so I would have plenty of time to get a decent dc tig or mig welder, and a manual tubing bender. do you think a solid axle rear would be best or something like a independent rear out of a 99-04 or 2015 mustang for example?


What do you plan on doing with this vehicle?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #163 by brandoncw » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:18 pm

Wesman07 wrote:What do you plan on doing with this vehicle?


Its gonna be a mixed use vehicle, spend most of the time on the street but some off road too.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #164 by Wesman07 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:24 pm

That is still a vary broad category. There are two types of vehicals that pop to mind. The first one being the car to in “Workintomuch” advatar. I only assume that this is his race car. Very cool to say the least. The second vehical is a “trophy rat”... moma was a trophy truck, papa was a rat rod.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ_s0Nwg_mU
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #165 by brandoncw » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:52 pm

Wesman07 wrote:That is still a vary broad category. There are two types of vehicals that pop to mind. The first one being the car to in “Workintomuch” advatar. I only assume that this is his race car. Very cool to say the least. The second vehical is a “trophy rat”... moma was a trophy truck, papa was a rat rod.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ_s0Nwg_mU

Basically i want a long wheel base buggy ( maybe about 140"?) With a good amount of suspension travel. I also would like air shocks to adjust the ride hight between on and off road conditions.

It will be a daily driver if the weather permits, and a weekend dirt/sand toy.
I would like two sets of wheels for it, paddle or other off road tire, and pro street tires for good street legal traction on the road. Any thing else you might want to know?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #166 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:12 pm

I think I'd be tempted to go with a Jeep body. Ford powered. They are available aftermarket and lightweight.
Another choice - early Bronco. And keep it around 125" w.b.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #167 by brandoncw » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:24 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I think I'd be tempted to go with a Jeep body. Ford powered. They are available aftermarket and lightweight.
Another choice - early Bronco. And keep it around 125" w.b.


:hmmm: so many good choices, id better get the engine done first though, plans might change over the next couple years while in the service.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #168 by Wesman07 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:57 pm

125” wheel base isn’t bad, 140” is pretty long. If you want to drive it on the road go with a dual rate coil over, skip the air shocks.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #169 by brandoncw » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:56 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:And keep it around 125" w.b.
Wesman07 wrote:125” wheel base isn’t bad, 140” is pretty long. If you want to drive it on the road go with a dual rate coil over, skip the air shocks.

I just based that number off my f150 extended cab wheel base a thought it looked good. Would actually have to mock something up to be certain what i like

Also should i use a front, center, or rear sump oil pan, or even a custom high volume pan?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #170 by Wesman07 » Tue May 01, 2018 5:27 am

Long wheel base vehicles ride better than short, but the longer the wheel base the higher your belly has to be to crest the same dune.

Rear sump works great for accelerating and going up hill. Front sump works great for going down hill. High volume center sump might work best, but you will have to push your front axle forward, or engine back.

Here is a good example. This type of racing is very popular in Iceland. They run full tube chassis’s based off Jeep platforms. If you look closely, you will see they push the front axle in front of the motor. This allows them to stay LOW. They also run about 3-4” of suspension up travel, and about 12” total. I believe air shocks and air bumps are in the class rules. Finding out information about formula hill climb racing is not easy because they are all out racing and are not online talking about it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y1ubHrljbEE
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #171 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue May 01, 2018 9:03 am

Well that looked like fun...
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #172 by brandoncw » Tue May 01, 2018 4:56 pm

Looks like alot of broken front ends... :lol:
Would a picture of what im wanting help you picture my idea?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #173 by Wesman07 » Tue May 01, 2018 5:18 pm

Sure, I love pictures
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #174 by brandoncw » Tue May 01, 2018 5:23 pm

Wesman07 wrote:Sure, I love pictures

Swap out the v8 for the big block 6 and you got what i want here.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #175 by Wesman07 » Tue May 01, 2018 5:48 pm

Oh that’s a sand rail!

They commonly used Volkswagen style front suspensions.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #176 by brandoncw » Tue May 01, 2018 6:02 pm

Wesman07 wrote:Oh that’s a sand rail!

They commonly used Volkswagen style front suspensions.

Yeah, i posted a pic of a buggy i thought about buying, and modifying for a front engine sandrail
I think i will build one using my 8.8 rear end and maybe do a custom long travel independent front end
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #177 by Wesman07 » Tue May 01, 2018 6:13 pm

You could probably build one of these for pretty cheap if you found VW hubs and spindles. 12” travel is a good number to shoot for. Coil overs will be the most expensive part... about 900 per side for a dual spring setup. I have never seen one with air shocks, probably because they aren’t known for good handling.

https://www.pacificcustoms.com/ac498900.html
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #178 by brandoncw » Tue May 01, 2018 6:18 pm

Wesman07 wrote:You could probably build one of these for pretty cheap if you found VW hubs and spindles. 12” travel is a good number to shoot for. Coil overs will be the most expensive part... about 900 per side for a dual spring setup. I have never seen one with air shocks, probably because they aren’t known for good handling.

https://www.pacificcustoms.com/ac498900.html

Well that got pricey quick lmao
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #179 by Wesman07 » Tue May 01, 2018 7:50 pm

You can make separate coil and shock set up work as well. You just have more limitations such as suspension travel. Long coil springs want to bow. Without a guid, you need to make them wide to be stable. Packaging then becomes a challenge.

A transverse mono leaf is an option. Look at the dodge sprinter front ends
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #180 by brandoncw » Tue May 01, 2018 11:24 pm

Wesman07 wrote:You can make separate coil and shock set up work as well. You just have more limitations such as suspension travel. Long coil springs want to bow. Without a guid, you need to make them wide to be stable. Packaging then becomes a challenge.

A transverse mono leaf is an option. Look at the dodge sprinter front ends

Is that mono leaf any good in the performance department? Decent travel?

Edit: i supposed this answers my question "A rig called Twister out of Arizona ran this [transverse mono leaf] front and rear and boy could it twist."
So this seems like a very plausible idea for front suspension, a ranger or 1/2 ton rear leaf may work well repurposed as a mono leaf. Thoughts?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #181 by Wesman07 » Wed May 02, 2018 5:24 am

It's a good design, It is just hard to get right. There is just little to no adjust ability. You can build it relatively cheap... But it could get costly and difficult to tune. Dont throw out the coil over option yet... you can find good used parts pretty easy and probably for half the cost.

You have a ton of options and Ill help you go any route you want. I think we should start with chassis design. Will this be a single seater? Need room for cago?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #182 by Wesman07 » Wed May 02, 2018 5:27 am

Where is Missouri are you taking this? Saint joe state park is the only place that I know of with any sand. I think they have a width limit?
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #183 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed May 02, 2018 8:33 am

brandoncw wrote:
Wesman07 wrote:... a ranger or 1/2 ton rear leaf may work well repurposed as a mono leaf. Thoughts?

That is not how a monoleaf is designed. A true monoleaf spring has a decreasing section area from the center outward to the spring eyes. That creates a more consistent bending moment along the length of the spring. A single leaf taken from a multiple leaf setup will be highly stressed at the (center) mounting point, will not deflect the spring leaf "equally" along its length, and will likely fail at the mounting point. If you want a mono leaf suspension use a purpose-built monoleaf spring.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #184 by brandoncw » Wed May 02, 2018 8:49 am

Wesman07 wrote:It's a good design, It is just hard to get right. There is just little to no adjust ability. You can build it relatively cheap... But it could get costly and difficult to tune. Dont throw out the coil over option yet... you can find good used parts pretty easy and probably for half the cost.

You have a ton of options and Ill help you go any route you want. I think we should start with chassis design. Will this be a single seater? Need room for cago?

Well we are kinda jumping the gun here, i dont currently ha e a tubing bender or a decent welder. Plus im leaving for the Army very shortly and wont be till the end of the summer before im out of basic training.

But to answer your question, i want a 2 seater and it doesnt really need cargo space but it would be nice.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #185 by brandoncw » Wed May 02, 2018 8:56 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:That is not how a monoleaf is designed. A true monoleaf spring has a decreasing section area from the center outward to the spring eyes. That creates a more consistent bending moment along the length of the spring. A single leaf taken from a multiple leaf setup will be highly stressed at the (center) mounting point, will not deflect the spring leaf "equally" along its length, and will likely fail at the mounting point. If you want a mono leaf suspension use a purpose-built monoleaf spring.

Ok, i see now after comparing pictures. Speedway has a spring for about $130 so they are rather inexpensive anyway
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #186 by Wesman07 » Wed May 02, 2018 9:42 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:
brandoncw wrote:
Wesman07 wrote:... a ranger or 1/2 ton rear leaf may work well repurposed as a mono leaf. Thoughts?

That is not how a monoleaf is designed. A true monoleaf spring has a decreasing section area from the center outward to the spring eyes. That creates a more consistent bending moment along the length of the spring. A single leaf taken from a multiple leaf setup will be highly stressed at the (center) mounting point, will not deflect the spring leaf "equally" along its length, and will likely fail at the mounting point. If you want a mono leaf suspension use a purpose-built monoleaf spring.


Sorry I was not clear with my statement. FTF is absolutely correct.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #187 by brandoncw » Wed May 02, 2018 10:56 am

On a completely random topic, I blasted my valve cover and shortened the oil filler neck which by the way is a royal pain in the a** to weld. So thin and you easily burn through. Its gonna get powder coated orange tonight.

I dont know why it turns my pics sideways. Just tilt your head i guess :lol:

I also found some coil overs with 16 inches of travel for 400ish. Im assuming thats per shock not in pairs. Might be overkill... just a bit
20180502_095104.jpg
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #188 by brandoncw » Thu May 03, 2018 7:08 pm

Just out of curiosity, how much boost can the stock crank handle with the "H" beam rods? I'm asking this because the Hx35 has a 23 psi wastegate
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #189 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu May 03, 2018 8:33 pm

A stock cast crank could probably handle 300 lb-ft of torque essentially indefinitely.

As far as connecting rods go, somebody answer me this: How does boost level dictate the strength of connecting rod needed? Virtually all of the rod failures I've seen (a few) have either been from
1) lubrication issues
2) rod bolt failure
3) big end failure
Item 1) usually happens when the engine revs so high it "outruns" the lube system's capacity to keep up
Item 2) usually happens at high RPMs especially on decells where the piston and rod weight exerts such high inertia loads on the bolts that either the bolt fails in tension or the clamping load is reduced enough to let the shells do bad stuff.
Item 3) usually occurs at high speeds or where the notch strength due to a stress riser on the big end (oil spit hole, bolt spot face, etc.) is not sufficient to prevent fracture.

In any case these all seem to be speed related, not a function of cylinder pressure. I've never heard of a rod failure from buckling - not saying it hasn't happened, just not in my anecdotal experiences. I'm no boosted engine expert. I'm just wondering if asking about boost levels and rod strength is asking the right question.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #190 by pmuller9 » Thu May 03, 2018 9:33 pm

Under compression loads we have bent steel "I" beam rods just below the small end.

It is interesting that on one occasion we had an ignition spark crossover problem causing pre-ignition that bent the wrist pin and concaved the piston top and the intake valve head but in this case the BME aluminum rod which had a beam a wide as the small end did not bend.

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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #191 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri May 04, 2018 12:02 am

What boost pressures did they occur?
I guess I should have also mentioned bent rods coming from hydraulicing a cylinder too.
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #192 by brandoncw » Fri May 04, 2018 1:20 am

Got the valve cover and pushrod cover powder coated. It turned out great other than a little wrinkled spot from the industrial steel shot blaster. That thing is made for some thicker stuff. But im not too worried about that. Im gonna ship the valve cover to my cousin now to have him outline the ford logo and do some tribal tattoo style pinstripes on it in Ford blue. Its gonna look sweet when its done. And probably confuse some people since orange isnt typically used for a ford engine.
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Wesman07
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #193 by Wesman07 » Fri May 04, 2018 5:43 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote: I'm no boosted engine expert. I'm just wondering if asking about boost levels and rod strength is asking the right question.


To my knowledge boost is not a good reference for strength. Other factors still have a strong influence such as compression, cam, head etc.

This seems to be is a very common misconception... especially on ther Internet forums. Just one of the reasons I like to learn here, rather than what a google search will tell me.

It has been explained to me that boost is simply increased air density.
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

Wesman07
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #194 by Wesman07 » Fri May 04, 2018 5:47 am

Parts look good. Do you think you will get the motor back together before your leave?
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

brandoncw
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #195 by brandoncw » Fri May 04, 2018 8:18 am

Wesman07 wrote:Parts look good. Do you think you will get the motor back together before your leave?

No, ill have to build it on my little bit of spare time after i get stationed
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #196 by Wesman07 » Fri May 04, 2018 8:50 am

That’s a challenge all in itself.
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

pmuller9
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #197 by pmuller9 » Fri May 04, 2018 9:39 am

Wesman07 wrote:
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote: I'm no boosted engine expert. I'm just wondering if asking about boost levels and rod strength is asking the right question.

To my knowledge boost is not a good reference for strength. Other factors still have a strong influence such as compression, cam, head etc.
This seems to be is a very common misconception... especially on ther Internet forums. Just one of the reasons I like to learn here, rather than what a google search will tell me.
It has been explained to me that boost is simply increased air density.

That is exactly correct.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Fri May 04, 2018 10:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

brandoncw
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #198 by brandoncw » Fri May 04, 2018 9:52 am

pmuller9 wrote:
Wesman07 wrote:
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote: I'm no boosted engine expert. I'm just wondering if asking about boost levels and rod strength is asking the right question.

To my knowledge boost is not a good reference for strength. Other factors still have a strong influence such as compression, cam, head etc.
This seems to be is a very common misconception... especially on ther Internet forums. Just one of the reasons I like to learn here, rather than what a google search will tell me.
It has been explained to me that boost is simply increased air density.

That is exactly correct.

But that being said, the more dense the air (boost) the harder it is to compress creating more stress on parts correct?
Last edited by brandoncw on Fri May 04, 2018 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pmuller9
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #199 by pmuller9 » Fri May 04, 2018 10:04 am

Yes but the force of compression is not significant compared to the forces after ignition.
Also consider that as boost is increased the ignition point is retarded so the crank has more leverage on the cylinder pressure.
Turbocharging is unique in that the crank only sees the net torque.
Under supercharging the crank sees the total torque and the torque required to drive supercharger is taken off the crank.

The forged steel crank failures have been contributed to high rpm torsional harmonics and high shock loads during high rpm launches using a clutch under racing applications.
Because the cast iron crank is used in much "softer" and lower rpm applications there has been no reports (AFAIK) of crank failures even under heavy turbocharged boost conditions.

You should be able to modify the HX35 wastegate or use an external gate to control the boost to lower levels.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Fri May 04, 2018 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

brandoncw
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Re: 300 rebuild project

Post #200 by brandoncw » Fri May 04, 2018 10:25 am

pmuller9 wrote:Yes but the force of compression is not significant compared to the forces after ignition.
Turbocharging is unique in that the crank only sees the net torque.
Under supercharging the crank sees the total torque and the torque required to drive supercharger is taken off the crank.

The forged steel crank failures have been contributed to high rpm torsional harmonics and high shock loads during high rpm launches using a clutch under racing applications.
Because the cast iron crank is used in much "softer" and lower rpm applications there has been no reports (AFAIK) of crank failures even under heavy turbocharged boost conditions.

You should be able to modify the HX35 wastegate or use an external gate to control the boost to lower levels.

ok, yeah that makes sense. Ill get either and adjustable waste gate to replace the one i have now or get and external one, along with a blow off valve. ~10 psi is the max pressure i should use right?
Skilled labor isn't cheap, Cheap labor isn't skilled.

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