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EFI swap

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Shorty
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EFI swap

Post #1 by Shorty » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:20 pm

I have a 90 efi parts truck and I was considering using the efi in my 85/78 150 bronco. I want to do this because the 85's engine is tired and also to try to avoid problems with the carb in bumpy and off camber off road conditions. My question is will I be able to use the efi system without the evap emissions system, catylitic, and smog pump? In Ontario the emission testing is not required on vehicles 1987 and older so this truck will not need a test. Or will eliminating these things confuse the ecm and cause problems?
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

Wesman07
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Re: EFI swap

Post #2 by Wesman07 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:43 pm

Yes, you can. You should not have any issues. I have done the same thing and ended up adding the egr system back on for fuel mileage and detonation resistance.

To make life easy, you need a complete engine, engine harness, ecu, fuel system, and a good wiring schematic (for both the year of your truck and the motor/ harness).

You will need to tie in the ignition, clutch safety switch, two relays, and extra fuel pump. Everything else is fairly straight forward.

I would highly recommend spending the time to sit down and draw up your own wire diagram from the two you are combining and make notes! That way when you have a problem ten years later, you can retrace your steps.
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Shorty
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Re: EFI swap

Post #3 by Shorty » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:46 pm

Thanks for the input. I have a complete truck for parts that ran when parked but the body and frame have major issues. It has a shiny new gas tank and sending unit and there was an old clutch slave cylinder in the box when I bought it two years ago for $400. It ran, sounded good and drove and stopped. It didn't show a check engine light so it should be a good starting point I think. It has a M50d trans with the borg warner case. Do you know if my np205 will fit on the M5od? Or I was thinking of using the Hi/Low part of the borg warner case in between the M5od and the np205..... try to get four ranges. ( With the five speed, two stick 205 and the borg warner case I should have quite a jumble of shift levers.) I would like to keep my 3.5 axle gears and overdrive to keep good fuel economy and the higher gears have more meat, plus I want to work with what I have.
how does the advanced cam work with the efi system?
did you replace the timing gear set or use the offset key?

I hope to drag the parts truck in the shop in the next few days to begin tear down. I think you are right that I should keep a note book near by and make use of it. I will take lots of pictures for future reference as well.
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #4 by Wesman07 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:11 pm

I used a cloyes adjustable set. No issues besides that I need to run 89 oct and 91 oct when I'm really loaded up going through the mountains. To be honest I think it wanted 89 octane before the cam gears (probably due to carbon build up) and I thought it was a exhaust leak.

The 208 should bolt right up if the trans is from a 4wd truck. I don't know about stacking transfercases. I do know that the 208 needs to be at a complete stop to go from hi to low range.
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Shorty
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Re: EFI swap

Post #5 by Shorty » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:22 pm

Sounds like the cloyes set is no longer being produced bassed on other posts in this forum. I might have to try to get one quick before they are all gone. If it is hard to get in the U.S. it should be near impossible to get in Canada.

My t case is a np 205 not a 208. I have run into issues with different mounting/ output shaft length/ adapter housing style for the C6 tranny. I use a late 70's tranny now and the early 80's ones use a shorter out put shaft with an aluminum adapter housing. The spline and the bolt pattern are the same but the two parts wouldn't close all the way together. Prob a spacer and longer bolts would work. There are also clearance issues with the shift rails trying to use the old cast iron case on the newer trannies.

This will all be in the past with the switch to a standard.

Everything can be made to fit with enough grinding and a bigger hammer
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #6 by Wesman07 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:33 pm

To be honest ive never seen a 205 m5od combo... probably because the transfer case is twice as strong as that transmission.
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Shorty
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Re: EFI swap

Post #7 by Shorty » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:44 pm

true, but i'm trying to work with what I have. I have another project I want the c6 for. When this truck is done I want to convert my 69 e200 camper van to 4x4 with the ifs front axle from the 89 f150 and the c6 out of the 85.(i told the wife it was a power steering conversion)
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #8 by Wesman07 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:57 pm

The old power steering trick eh?

I think you will hit some major hurdles with the ifs front end. The ttb mounts to the engine cradle. I would imagine that the engine cradle on the van is not the same as the truck. Getting the geometry right on those front ends is critical.

Have you considered a solid axle?
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Shorty
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Re: EFI swap

Post #9 by Shorty » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:08 pm

that would be nice if I can find one. I do have a plasma cutter and a wide selection of welders. That project is still a ways off.
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #10 by tnab1970 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:59 pm

quote:" how does the advanced cam work with the efi system?
did you replace the timing gear set or use the offset key?"

I have now done both on the same vehicle. 1989 F150 4x4 5 speed 3.55 gears. here are my findings.
used the cloyes set for 4 degrees at the crank ( which is only 2 degrees at cam shaft ) little to no noticeable change in driving. after advance. No change at all in fuel economy.
Used cloyes set at straight up / no advance or retard. Installed MR Gasket #988G keyway in the camshaft for a full 4 degrees of advance. Noticeable more lowend pull. More user friendly for trailer hauling etc. Have not checked fuel economy yet. this is not an easy option , We were pulling the head for valve work and other things, decided to do it at that time.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #11 by Shorty » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:08 pm

Finally was warm enough today to work outside so after I cleared the driveway I pushed the EFI parts truck into the shop. This way I should be able to spend some time on this swap
idea.img/picture.php?/2140/category/76

I will very likely have Questions as I go. The first one that pops to mind is that the air pump driven by the accessory belt pumps to the cat, which I plan to elimimate. It also goes to a line that goes into the head in six spots. What does this do and do I need to keep it and the air pump?

Is there any good reading I could do to become familiar with the factory EFI system? I hate to ask too many unnecessary questions and I sure appreciate the feedback.
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #12 by 86f250straight6 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:29 pm

I did an efi swap on my 86 and deleted all the emissions. All that stuff does is pump air into the exhaust and vice versa and is a total waste of space and can be removed with no issues or check engine light. The air tubes that go in the head are 14mm spark plug thread iirc it has been a while since I did that, but I found that 1/4 npt allen head plugs will thread in almost perfect and a little bit of jb weld on the threads will guarantee no leaks. In the past making patches on friends trucks when they rust out I have also cut the lines off flush with the tube nuts and jammed self threading bolts in the holes smeared with jb weld or copper rtv with good results. It's not as neat looking but it's fast and cheap and it works. I'll go out and check and post back but I believe the belt I used after deleting the air pump (with no a/c) was a 91.5"? If you have ac and plan to keep it the belt will be longer and you'll have to measure it with a piece of string.
I'm trying to build a truck that I can't break :bang:

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Re: EFI swap

Post #13 by 86f250straight6 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:36 pm

Also if you plan to delete the egr line from the exhaust manifold to the valve it can be plugged with either a 3/4 or 1" npt pipe plug I forget which size. I then took the egr valve off the intake manifold and pumped it full of rtv so it wouldn't cause a vacuum leak and bolted it up and plugged it back in so the ecm will see that it is closed and not increase timing.
I'm trying to build a truck that I can't break :bang:

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Re: EFI swap

Post #14 by Shorty » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:01 pm

well I got my ECM and engine wiring harness out of the donor truck today. took some notes and pictures. Once I removed the stuff i won't need it seems fairly simple. I still wonder what the point of the air pump and aux. air pump blowing into the head and on the injectors is. It is possible to remove and block off the holes, but if it works is it better to keep it? Will the injectors and that area of the cyl head get too hot without the air flow?

I got rid of the rear abs, the cruise control. Do I still need to connect the speed sensor in the tranny or will things be ok without it. The truck will be running the 5spd.

I also got rid of the inertia switch and will be using only one fuel tank rather than two so the wiring for the fuel pumps is much simpler now.
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #15 by Wesman07 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:35 am

Your truck probably uses a mechanical cable that goes into the tail shaft and not a speed sensor.

I think the air pump you are taking about feed air into the cylinder head at the exhaust port. The fresh air feeds oxygen into the exhaust gas so the cat can burn what excaped the combustion camber. You would probably notice a smell difference and make your eyes water if your cabin is not air tight..... if you don't have a cat, it serves no purpose.

The only other pump I know about blows cool air onto the injectors to minimize vapor lock due the the exhaust manifold right below it. It's affectiveness is still up for debate. I would remove it and add it if you have an issue at a later date.
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #16 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:22 am

Don't remove the air blower on the injectors. Ford had high warranty on the injectors due to them getting cooked by the hot exhaust when the engine was shut down. That was the motivating force that drove them to develop the crossflow cylinder head prototype. Alas, they went with a V6 in the long term, and put that squirrel cage blower assembly in for a short term fix.

(I wish they had gone ahead with the crossflow head, but the rest of the short block needed updating to meet more recent emissions and fuel economy regulations. Pity)
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Re: EFI swap

Post #17 by Wesman07 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:23 am

I stand corrected. Good info!

I do not have a blower on mine.... but I do have an electric fan that runs off a thermostat that receaves constant power. It often kicks on after I shut down... I bet that's saving my butt
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #18 by Shorty » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:55 pm

so if I don't have a cat the belt driven pump can go and the ports in the head blocked off, and the electric air pump that goes on the injectors needs to be powered by a thermostatic switch that is constant powered to run even with the engine off? the power for that fan seemed to come from in the cab in the area were the cruise control wiring went into some sort of module/ control box rather than to the ecm.
I wonder where a good spot would be to locate a switch, should it read coolant temp in the head? What temp would be a good on/off point? Would louvers in the hood help to keep the temps down under the hood?
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #19 by guhfluh » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:18 pm

I would be concerned that the lack of oxygen pumped into the air ports of the head during closed loop would throw off the O2 sensor reading and cause a lean running condition. I would have to look deeper into how and when the air injection is used and how the ECM determines proper air fuel ratio when it's on.

For the injectors, there have been a lot of advancements in injector quality in the recent years and resistance to higher Temps is one I've heard about. It may be good to look into a newer replacement of the same flow rate, etc.

I'd leave the EGR. It does more good than bad in my opinion, unless it's just a race vehicle.
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Re: EFI swap

Post #20 by Shorty » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:24 pm

The air pump is controlled by vacum as far as I can see so the ecm wouldn't know if it is on or not. I never thought of the effect it would have on the o2 sensor reading but that makes sense. I would need to keep the control valve and the check valves in place but since i don't have a cat then that line will just blow into space I guess.

The truck is far from a race vehicle, it is my daily driver in the spring summer and fall. I take it off the road in the winter because the tired old 300 that is in it now doesn't like starting in the cold too much. I have a 83 f150 2wd 6 cyl with 4 spd od that I drive in the winter months, it starts better. Once I get the efi swap done on the 4x4 i want to try the three carter carb idea on the 2 wd. I saw some pictures of an intake made from three by FTF and I would love to try that idea.
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #21 by Shorty » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:22 pm

it seems almost a year has gone by, here's an update on my project. I have been squirreling away parts so far I have the engine and harness and wiring sketches from nearly a year ago. I have managed to get one of those adjustable timing gear sets and also a zf5spd tranny instead of the m5od. one thing I have been having a hard time in finding is spare time to work on it. Anyone know where to get some of that?
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #22 by sdiesel » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:20 am

a note on transfer cases.

the 205 is a good case, with notable draw backs.

in ur situation u will likely find that the front output shaft is going to be working at a severe compound angle.
the 205 is much narrower than the chain drive it will replace.
second is weight.
even with the 1356 series chain drive ford had problems with the t case cracking the rear section of the zf transmission due to the offset weight and torque application.
you will compound this many fold with a gear drive that weighs heavier by a lot. a support on the t case is mandatory and of course corresponding support of the engine so you don't twist thw works up by holding the t case rigid while the engine is free to flop about.

I'm unsure about if u are putting goodies into a 78 or 85.
if it has IFS
the monobeam axle will be uncomfortably close to the cross member, but a 78 moonbeam has the proper spacing of the pumpkin to avoid a compound driveline angle with the 205. though it will fit only with a lot of mods.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Shorty
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Re: EFI swap

Post #23 by Shorty » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:49 pm

the stuff is going into what is registered as an 85, but the frame is from the 78. it has the 205 case with a mount between the case and the frame rail already, and it has the solid front axle. I am hoping to swap in a 5 speed. I have both a M5od and a zf. I like the zf because it is shorter and it has pto provisions. I will be taking out a c6. I have all the pedals and brackets to rig and plumb for the hydraulic clutch. The shaft that goes to the front will need to be shortened but the angle is fine. it has the double cardan u joint at the t case end.

What could be done to support the engine so that it is not fighting the t case mount? Or is it enough to make sure the engine and tranny mounts are good? Or maybe I need to use a two wheel drive zf and divorce mount the t case? that will cause issue with rear drive shaft angles.

I just finished putting a five speed in my 83 two wheel drive and switched the license plates on to it so I will be driving that and will be able to tear into the 4x4 in the coming weeks to swap the carb for EFI and the auto for standard. Also want to add hydro steering assist. And I need to do a little body work/paint.
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #24 by sdiesel » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:52 pm

the ZF is the only real option.
78 frame: good. all things line up.
rear case half is weak on zf trans and THERE ARE NO REPLACEMENT CASE HALVES.
they crack at the webbing on top behind the 4x4 flange.
they are not fixable
2wd versions will break mounting ears, these are fixable
a torque strap is the best cure for engine wobble. driver side block to frame.
ur 205 frame mount is ideal.
205 front output uses a 1310 u joint, likely a headache to try use a D cardan. I feel ur pain I like fords drive shafts too and have a tidy pile of them that I'll never use but can't part with
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: EFI swap

Post #25 by Shorty » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:26 pm

sdiesel wrote:rear case half is weak on zf trans and THERE ARE NO REPLACEMENT CASE HALVES.
they crack at the webbing on top behind the 4x4 flange.
they are not fixable
2wd versions will break mounting ears, these are fixable
a torque strap is the best cure for engine wobble. driver side block to frame.


is this maybe more of a problem in heavy trucks with built up diesels in them or does this cracking happen on half tons with the inline six too? also, the torque strap idea is good, but in an off road truck that loads up in reverse as well as forwards would it be better to put one on each side?
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #26 by Wesman07 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:41 pm

I used to break motor mounts all the time. It was a miricle if a set lasted a year. These autofab mounts are a bit pricey, but work very well. The vibration is not bad at all either.

https://autofab.com/i-9621949-80-96-for ... ounts.html
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #27 by Shorty » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:49 pm

those do look nice. I may try fab some up though for that price, plus exchange, plus shipping, plus duty.......
still curious if the reported cracking of the rear case of the zf may be from poor mounts and high torque from a heavy diesel truck? how many people have seen this in a half ton with a stock six, or even a mild built six?
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: EFI swap

Post #28 by Wesman07 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:14 pm

It is most likely caused by driving with broken motor mounts. I don’t see another way for that to happen other than getting T boned, or tristing your driveshaft into a pretzel

Check your chassis to see if it’s racked out of square.
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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