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Tractor Puller

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Lunatic Fringe
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #101 by Lunatic Fringe » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:26 pm

Thanks guys, I'm very grateful for the input.

I had the bell blanks cut when the intake was water jet cut from 1/2" alum. 3" OD, radius machined to 1 3/4" ID. Done by my younger brother on an OLD manual lathe.

The head end of the runners are hammer formed to match the port shape and then pie cut to eliminate extra material. So the top of the runner is a bit flattened, but not as much as FTF suggested.( I can always revisit this if and when I build another.) External pie cut welds are ground off, internal welds will be ground later.

I have the benefit of owning a Boss 429 sheet metal intake built by Jon Kaase, so I'm using it as a guide.

Merry Christmas to all!

sandboxer
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #102 by sandboxer » Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:04 am

Looks beautiful LF!
I’m excited to get started on mine. Just bought some 5052 for plenum material. I wasn’t sure how thick to go on the tube given the port shape and bell entry, but pie cuts pretty much became the only option for the flange. I had thought of hammer forming my runners out of two pieces instead, but I haven’t finalized yet.
Thanks for the inspiration!

Now I need to figure out how to post pics from an iPhone...if that’s even possible.

S

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #103 by Max_Effort » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:40 am

sandboxer wrote:Looks beautiful LF!
I’m excited to get started on mine. Just bought some 5052 for plenum material. I wasn’t sure how thick to go on the tube given the port shape and bell entry, but pie cuts pretty much became the only option for the flange. I had thought of hammer forming my runners out of two pieces instead, but I haven’t finalized yet.
Thanks for the inspiration!

Now I need to figure out how to post pics from an iPhone...if that’s even possible.

S


This is from my iPhone.
Start with the attachment button in the first photo below.

Then it will open to the second photo, click add files, then the window will open, select photo library etc..., choose the photo and it will upload. Then select the place inline button.


FullSizeRender.jpg


FullSizeRender.jpg
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Lunatic Fringe
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #104 by Lunatic Fringe » Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:11 pm

sandboxer wrote:Looks beautiful LF!
I’m excited to get started on mine. Just bought some 5052 for plenum material. I wasn’t sure how thick to go on the tube given the port shape and bell entry, but pie cuts pretty much became the only option for the flange. I had thought of hammer forming my runners out of two pieces instead, but I haven’t finalized yet.
Thanks for the inspiration.

S


Thank you, sandboxer,should have added more details.

I used 1/8 5052 for the plenum. The runner wall thickness is also 1/8, but varies in the bend radius due to the forming process. I purchased them as U-Bends from Columbia River Mandrel Bending in Oregon. The ones I'm using are 2" OD, 11GA, 6061 in a 3" radius.


My runners are extremely short for 2 reasons. Using 1st gear in the trans, a 6.20 ratio in the 9" will allow the motor to hit max revs very quickly and hopefully stay there. There will be farm tractor style bodywork on it and I'm trying to keep the carb under the hood. If I was building one for a truck , I'd use longer runners.

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #105 by sandboxer » Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:28 pm

98635454-A2C4-44B5-96E7-284B2D2766CD.jpeg
9A983A8E-F8F6-4405-9575-7277C0770716.jpeg
F0CA138C-7F9C-417B-B9B4-DFADBA05ED91.jpeg
CF4B0098-8699-4F97-BAF1-5472C7D73452.jpeg
69284BAB-BA2C-4373-97E4-1DF26C927FE0.jpeg


Ok, here goes.
This is a similar project to LF, but as an open wheel street rod. I’ll post more when there is significant progress.
S
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #106 by sandboxer » Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:33 pm

Thanks Lunatic Fringe for the flanges. I hope to have photos soon of them attached to my intake. They are beautiful.
Thanks Max Effort for clarity on the process! Now I can share a bit.

I have a very narrow hood, monopost style, so my runners will be 16” long and straight out. I might have to support the plenum from a frame rail, as the engine is solidly mounted.
Last edited by sandboxer on Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tractor Puller

Post #107 by chad » Wed Dec 26, 2018 2:33 pm

U'n Lunatic start frm the very begining, no?!!?
Nxt step? mining ur own iron ore!
:twisted:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #108 by Lunatic Fringe » Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:22 pm

sandboxer wrote:Thanks Lunatic Fringe for the flanges. I hope to have photos soon of them attached to my intake. They are beautiful.
Thanks Max Effort for clarity on the process! Now I can share a bit.

I have a very narrow hood, monopost style, so my runners will be 16” long and straight out. I might have to support the plenum from a frame rail, as the engine is solidly mounted.


You're very welcome! since we're almost neighbours, if you're ever up this way let me know and stop by.

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #109 by Lunatic Fringe » Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:18 pm

Very nice project sandboxer, can't wait to see more. Am I seeing it correctly as an old style Track "T"?

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #110 by sandboxer » Wed Dec 26, 2018 11:52 pm

Thanks!
While not far off, as I love the track t’s, this is a project I drew on a napkin 10 years ago, built a wooden mock up frame for, and finally these past few months had the time to start.
I’ve always loved the single seat race cars of the early century, so a long skinny hood and Boattail back is in the works.
Ditto on the visit. Stop in some time.
S

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #111 by Lunatic Fringe » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:20 am

Got my block back from the hot tank, time to thread chase all the holes and deburr the sharp edges. Before and after pictures of porting the oil passages in the filter mount. Still need to hit it with a 120 grit roll for final smoothing.
IMG_1948.JPG
IMG_1951.JPG
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #112 by pmuller9 » Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:29 am

Look for pockets of sand/iron in the crankcase.
There can also be thin iron casting lines in the cam tunnel that can be removed.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s6u3h61cke7kf ... 6.jpg?dl=0

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #113 by Lunatic Fringe » Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:00 am

pmuller9 wrote:Look for pockets of sand/iron in the crankcase.
There can also be thin iron casting lines in the cam tunnel that can be removed.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s6u3h61cke7kf ... 6.jpg?dl=0


Yes, unfortunately this one has some really ugly shrapnel in there. Like they used a dull chainsaw.

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #114 by WorldChampGramp » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:09 pm

Lunatic Fringe wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:Look for pockets of sand/iron in the crankcase.
There can also be thin iron casting lines in the cam tunnel that can be removed.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s6u3h61cke7kf ... 6.jpg?dl=0


Yes, unfortunately this one has some really ugly shrapnel in there. Like they used a dull chainsaw.



LF: Make sure you check the rear main web shelf above the rear main housing which is normally not very visable b/c we always [view things in the block webbing areas] from the oil pan bottom up. We use to use a mirror and were always surprised at what we "thought" was a ready to go super clean block prior to final assy.

:beer: Happy New Year to all :idea: Gramps

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #115 by Lunatic Fringe » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:48 pm

WorldChampGramp wrote:
Lunatic Fringe wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:Look for pockets of sand/iron in the crankcase.
There can also be thin iron casting lines in the cam tunnel that can be removed.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s6u3h61cke7kf ... 6.jpg?dl=0


Yes, unfortunately this one has some really ugly shrapnel in there. Like they used a dull chainsaw.



LF: Make sure you check the rear main web shelf above the rear main housing which is normally not very visable b/c we always [view things in the block webbing areas] from the oil pan bottom up. We use to use a mirror and were always surprised at what we "thought" was a ready to go super clean block prior to final assy.

:beer: Happy New Year to all :idea: Gramps


The cam tunnel casting lines were a real PITA, but got them done.

Today I'll grab a mirror and look in that area, thanks Gramps!

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #116 by Lunatic Fringe » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:59 pm

Main studs in place, my girdle template clearanced to miss the rods and oil pan. Will be making a new template on the CNC to reflect the changes I've made. Once I'm happy with it, I'll draw it in CAD and send it out for Waterjet.
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #117 by sandboxer » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:15 pm

Looking good!

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #118 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:32 pm

It looks like you removed the strut that stabilizes the oil pickup tube. Remember to add a new one to keep the pickup from vibrating itself apart.
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #119 by Fordman75 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:58 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:It looks like you removed the strut that stabilizes the oil pickup tube. Remember to add a new one to keep the pickup from vibrating itself apart.



It's in the pic just hard to see.
Ted

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #120 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:01 pm

I see it now. I've had them fail at the spot welds and I like to TIG weld them.
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #121 by Fordman75 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:08 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I see it now. I've had them fail at the spot welds and I like to TIG weld them.


I've had a few that also broke down by the bend on the arm by the main bolt/stud.
Ted

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #122 by Lunatic Fringe » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:05 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I see it now. I've had them fail at the spot welds and I like to TIG weld them.


Lol, FTF, you must be psychic. I was looking at the brace when I was bolting it together,thinking about adding another either on the same main or on #5. (And tigging)

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #123 by 54-4x4 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:37 pm

I really admire what you are doing to the BB6.I enjoy wandering around in the pits looking at all the inovative stuff at the mud bogs.Now I get to see how one of these engines goes together for racing.
All the great ideas and input that comes forward on this forum is exellent.

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #124 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:20 pm

Lunatic Fringe wrote:Lol, FTF, you must be psychic.

I've never told I was psychic but a couple of old girlfriends accused me of being psychotic.
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #125 by Wesman07 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:44 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:
Lunatic Fringe wrote:Lol, FTF, you must be psychic.

I've never told I was psychic but a couple of old girlfriends accused me of being psychotic.


Lol that’s funny. In your defense, the only difference between the two is if the other party believes what you are saying
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #126 by Lunatic Fringe » Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:37 am

54-4x4 wrote:I really admire what you are doing to the BB6.I enjoy wandering around in the pits looking at all the inovative stuff at the mud bogs.Now I get to see how one of these engines goes together for racing.
All the great ideas and input that comes forward on this forum is exellent.


You could always drive to the Pull out by Stoney Plain in August, only 4 1/2 hours away! Hopefully we'll be there.

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #127 by 54-4x4 » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:27 am

Lunatic Fringe wrote:
54-4x4 wrote:I really admire what you are doing to the BB6.I enjoy wandering around in the pits looking at all the inovative stuff at the mud bogs.Now I get to see how one of these engines goes together for racing.
All the great ideas and input that comes forward on this forum is exellent.


You could always drive to the Pull out by Stoney Plain in August, only 4 1/2 hours away! Hopefully we'll be there.

I would like to do that.What is the name of the event ,location and date?

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #128 by Lunatic Fringe » Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:16 pm

You could always drive to the Pull out by Stoney Plain in August, only 4 1/2 hours away! Hopefully we'll be there.[/quote]
I would like to do that.What is the name of the event ,location and date?[/quote]

Event is Darwell Ag Drags, Darwell,AB, August 9-11/2019

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #129 by old28racer » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:09 pm

I would just like to ask a question on your main stud girdle. I always ran one on my 500+ inch BBC with a blower on alcohol, around 1200 HP. I am sure it is solid bottom end protection. Are you shooting for 400 +HP on this puller? What RPM will it be pulling at? Now my question is would after market billet main caps with ARP main bolts work for a 350-375 HP puller in the 7500 rpm range without the main girdle? Just would like to know.
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #130 by Lunatic Fringe » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:58 pm

old28racer wrote:I would just like to ask a question on your main stud girdle. I always ran one on my 500+ inch BBC with a blower on alcohol, around 1200 HP. I am sure it is solid bottom end protection. Are you shooting for 400 +HP on this puller? What RPM will it be pulling at? Now my question is would after market billet main caps with ARP main bolts work for a 350-375 HP puller in the 7500 rpm range without the main girdle? Just would like to know.


Fantastic questions.

Ideally I'd like 600+ HP at 8500RPM! Now, is this a realistic goal? We won't really know until we get there. For our first effort, I'd like to hit 350-400 at 6500-7000. Once we can keep it alive at that level, we'll push it more. ( X-Flow and a bigger cam.)

I'm doing some research on the aftermarket main caps but I'm not ready to present my ideas yet.

I'm thinking along the line of trying to reduce block twist, the girdle is the first step.

Lol, I would like to know too!

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #131 by old28racer » Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:47 pm

Thanks for the reply to the billet main caps and the main girdle. 600 HP @ 8500 rpm, that is a serious 300 motor modification & goal. Please post your results on the aftermarket main caps when you get done with the research.

Very interesting thread, best of luck with your build.
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #132 by Lunatic Fringe » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:37 pm

IMG_0495.jpg
IMG_2027.jpg
IMG_2028.jpg
Now that the lovely month of February is over, I've finally had some time to do some work in the garage. Things should be moving along quicker now.
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #133 by arse_sidewards » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:09 am

Well that should keep the main caps from moving around.
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #134 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:13 am

Wow! That's a beautiful girdle. Will you please tell us the steps you went through to make it. I see a viable commercial product there for those "end-of-the-box" engine builders out here. I've seen a couple of main cap failures - one in an engine I've built (saveable) and one on an engine another person built (parted out). Also will you please tell us other mods you have to do to use it (face the main caps, oil pump, etc?). Thank you Lunatic.

Also, not to nit pic, but there are probably gains to be had by replacing your conventional collectors with merge collectors. It will help scavenging by keeping the velocity up.
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #135 by guhfluh » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:47 am

Nice looking work :)

I've been curious, is there not enough meat in the block for 4 bolt style or splayed main caps to be built? Or also building a bedplate style girdle that ties into the pan rail as well? I'm sure it's an expensive venture only needed at top tier, but I've never seen anyone do anything similar for the 300, but heard talk of main cap movement at those levels.
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #136 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:37 am

Because the engine has seven main bearings a 4-bolt cap is not the issue. There is not enough meat on the block to do 4-bolt anyway. It's stronger main caps that are needed. They could be made from billet steel, like 4340 and be virtually bulletproof.

A deep skirted block, like the FE/FT engines or the Modular V8 would help, but making an integral girdle with our block design presents problems.
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #137 by Lunatic Fringe » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:18 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Wow! That's a beautiful girdle. Will you please tell us the steps you went through to make it. I see a viable commercial product there for those "end-of-the-box" engine builders out here. I've seen a couple of main cap failures - one in an engine I've built (saveable) and one on an engine another person built (parted out). Also will you please tell us other mods you have to do to use it (face the main caps, oil pump, etc?). Thank you Lunatic.

Also, not to nit pic, but there are probably gains to be had by replacing your conventional collectors with merge collectors. It will help scavenging by keeping the velocity up.


Thanks! It all started with a TON of measurements.I'm lucky enough to use a CNC punch at work so i can test my numbers on 1/8 aluminum. Once I'm happy with that I draw it in CAD then send the DWG to the Water Jet. We're talking multiple testers here, as sometimes dimensions are moved .005 at a time.
As discussed earlier, I added a 1.5" billet spacer under the oil pump in order to give room for the studs( Not stock dimension) and the girdle. So far only the bolt surface on the main caps has been machined even(spacers to lift it over the cap radius)

Nit pic away, I'm starting with these collectors for now. Will be switching to merge(absolutely agree) once the budget allows.

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #138 by sandboxer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:43 am

I sent you a PM Lunatic.

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #139 by Lunatic Fringe » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:01 pm

DSCF0003.JPG
Lunatic Fringe wrote:This is our original chassis(We built in 1982) running a 400M w/Cleveland 4BBL heads(We built in 1990). Points champ several times. Could have assembled a similar motor for our new effort, but we like a challenge.aYLv0a.jpg


UPDATE

May have posted it before but....

It is with a heavy heart , that the current owner of our original tractor passed in December. I and many others attended his memorial last weekend. In discussions with his widow and their crew, it was announced there will be a farewell tour with his 2 tractors. I am honoured to have been asked to compete with our old unit for this season. We will be entering into discussions on purchasing it in the fall. Construction on the 6 will be slowed until I'm done the refurbishment on the V8. Also will need to rewire to my garage as the wiring isn't heavy enough to run my TIG properly. Also added to the to do list is we need a bigger trailer.
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #140 by sandboxer » Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:12 pm

Sorry for your loss Lunatic Fringe. I hope you make it back to the 300 someday soon. Good luck with the season.

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #141 by Lunatic Fringe » Tue May 28, 2019 2:59 pm

Picked up our old tractor on Saturday and brought it home. Drove it off the trailer and around the yard just to get familiar with it again. 30 years since it was in my garage! Will need a bunch of TLC. Collectors are rusted through, wiring is a mess, and has a few stress cracks. First pull is July 27. Waiting for some parts on the 300, then off to the machine shop. How do you post videos here?
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #142 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue May 28, 2019 4:45 pm

Does that one get a six?
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #143 by Lunatic Fringe » Tue May 28, 2019 5:12 pm

No, it will stay with the 400 for the foreseeable future. The six is parked just out of the picture and will be continued to be worked on but at a slower pace. I also have another project that I need to finish before I can get back to the six.

Also found out that the converter and C4 in the 400 are still original from when I had them built in 98.

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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #144 by Lunatic Fringe » Fri May 31, 2019 11:26 pm

Cam and lifters showed up today! Couple more bits and off to the machine shop.
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pmuller9
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #145 by pmuller9 » Fri May 31, 2019 11:41 pm

Looks like the Schneider 304-14F.

Check the base circle of every lobe.
Seen a big Schneider cam where one lifter was scrubbing the core material which was higher than the heal of the lobe.

Are you going to use 1.75 ratio rockers?

Lunatic Fringe
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #146 by Lunatic Fringe » Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:47 am

Thanks for the heads up! Will have a closer look at that tomorrow . I've got a set of 1.7's . Cam card says 1.7 too, but my lift calculations weren't quite that high. When I get the spring hight to order springs, I'll ask them why the discrepancy.

pmuller9
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #147 by pmuller9 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:26 am

The cam card is mixed.
Schneider subtracts the valve lash for actual valve lift.
Cam card lift calculations are actually based on a 1.75 ratio rocker even though the card shows 1.7

Intake lobe lift .365" x 1.75 = .639" - .020" valve lash = .619"
Exhaust lobe lift .370" x 1.75 = .648" - .020" valve lash = .628"

If you want a head scratcher try making sense from the online catalog specs that is based on a 1.6 ratio rocker.

When you degree the cam look at both the intake and exhaust .050" lobe open and closed points as well as lift.
Then check the LSA.
We both will be interested in the results.

What valve spring are you going to use?

Lunatic Fringe
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #148 by Lunatic Fringe » Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:50 pm

Ok, I was confused, that makes sense now.
As far as springs go, I'm getting .1 longer 2.02 &1.6 valves installed . Having the head done in roughly a month and will get the installed hight at that point. I'll figure the springs out then.

pmuller9
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #149 by pmuller9 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:40 pm

Take a look at Comp conical single spring 7228-12 with retainer 787-12
It would have to be installed at 1.800"
Pricey but will hold it's spring rate a lot longer than the straight wound springs.
The reduced spring and retainer mass will help with high rpm valve train stability.

Wesman07
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Re: Tractor Puller

Post #150 by Wesman07 » Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:37 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Take a look at Comp conical single spring 7228-12 with retainer 787-12
It would have to be installed at 1.800"
Pricey but will hold it's spring rate a lot longer than the straight wound springs.
The reduced spring and retainer mass will help with high rpm valve train stability.



I’ve wondered why progressive valve springs weren’t more commonly used. Without a doubt it’s harder to set up, but a low seat pressure and high spring frequency at max lift has some clear advantages. I would imagine that coil bind issues are easier to run into unless you can actually find that perfect progression.

Why would a progressive spring hold a true rate longer?
Last edited by Wesman07 on Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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