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Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

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sandboxer
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #101 by sandboxer » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:14 am

I've been watching and waiting with anticipation after stating my intention of building a cylinder head and seeing you grab the ball and run hard. Awesome, to say the least. I'm buying up all the blocks I can find:)
Cheers and hats off to those that make stuff happen!

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #102 by CNC-Dude » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:22 pm

When Crane bankrupted and closed 8 or 10 years ago, I needed some flat tappet cores and all the cam companies were out of them. I contacted one of those companies in Michigan that supplies them to all the A-Z cam grinders. They said they don't deal with small quantity buyers and sell in lots of 100 core minimums, and suggested to place an order with one of these A-Z cam grinders for 10-15 cams to justify the camgrinders to add to their existing order with them for the cores. The salesman I spoke to said that many of the bigger cam companies buy between 300-500 cores a month from them. I also had to make some 8620 round lobe billet blanks for a couple of inline Chevy guys also, because Crane made a lot of them for other cam companies in a private label sort of arrangement.
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #103 by pmuller9 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:15 pm

guhfluh wrote:I was also a little curious about low end torque/power production and how much each head would effect it. I'm glad you touched on it.

As always the "U" heads even with porting will produce good low end torque.

The crossflow head does have more port volume but it also has much less of a port angle than the "U" head.
This allows more port flow by increased velocity rather than just by a larger Cross Sectional Area and should provide a wide power band.

If a person wanted the new head to cater more towards low rpm torque, it would be feasable to have a port floor wedge that was part of the intake manifold that would raise the intake port floor and also reduce the port volume.
Because of the straighter port angle, the result would be very good low end torque with a very wide power band.

Combine that with a short duration, high lift roller cam and you have a killer combination.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #104 by Stonebreaker » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:19 pm

WorldChampGramp wrote:... I wish I could resolve one stumbling block for some forum members, who have expressed their disdain over our choice of GM castings for the cross-flow masterpiece. Bruce :thumbup: :checks:


That's the difference between hotrodders and racers, I guess. Different goals. Hotrodders want to look good going fast and racers want to go fast and look good if possible.

I would think you could make a pretty good guess as to the potential horsepower numbers looking at LS motors with similar bore and stroke dimensions and then multiplying by 3/4 to account for two cylinders missing. There would be some differences due to intake design, of course, but I think you'd at least be in the ball park.

For example, I just recently installed modified stock heads on my 04 corvette. 347 cubic inches, 3.93 bore, 3.60 stroke. Car made 459 rwhp and 421 peak tq, translating to about 530 crank hp. 3/4 of that is 400 crank hp near enough, and even better the motor makes 340 rwtq at just 2500 rpm. And I got 26 mpg on the drive in to work this morning. Gramps said they're targeting a 72 cc chamber size, which would give a static compression ratio on this motor of about 11:1, maybe a little more, so you could run a pretty hot cam and still get great streetability.

Another bonus to using a known and popular head design is cam selection is going to be a heck of a lot easier on the crossflow head than it will be on the U-flow heads. The fluid dynamics aren't going to change all that much so the shape of the torque curve for a given cam is going to be pretty similar between the I6 and the V8.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #105 by WorldChampGramp » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:44 am

Stonebreaker wrote:
WorldChampGramp wrote:... I wish I could resolve one stumbling block for some forum members, who have expressed their disdain over our choice of GM castings for the cross-flow masterpiece. Bruce :thumbup: :checks:


That's the difference between hotrodders and racers, I guess. Different goals. Hotrodders want to look good going fast and racers want to go fast and look good if possible.

I would think you could make a pretty good guess as to the potential horsepower numbers looking at LS motors with similar bore and stroke dimensions and then multiplying by 3/4 to account for two cylinders missing. There would be some differences due to intake design, of course, but I think you'd at least be in the ball park.

For example, I just recently installed modified stock heads on my 04 corvette. 347 cubic inches, 3.93 bore, 3.60 stroke. Car made 459 rwhp and 421 peak tq, translating to about 530 crank hp. 3/4 of that is 400 crank hp near enough, and even better the motor makes 340 rwtq at just 2500 rpm. And I got 26 mpg on the drive in to work this morning. Gramps said they're targeting a 72 cc chamber size, which would give a static compression ratio on this motor of about 11:1, maybe a little more, so you could run a pretty hot cam and still get great streetability.

Another bonus to using a known and popular head design is cam selection is going to be a heck of a lot easier on the crossflow head than it will be on the U-flow heads. The fluid dynamics aren't going to change all that much so the shape of the torque curve for a given cam is going to be pretty similar between the I6 and the V8.


I am always impressed with the level of interest and insight expressed in this Forum and wanted to expand on your camshaft comments. As previously mentioned our Boss 6 X-Flow using stock OEM shaft mounted LS rockers will result in a 1.70 ratio @ .280 lift with 1.59 actual ratio in the “off-seat” measurement. Aftermarket rockers are plentiful with 1.7 and even 1.8 ratio offerings which will give all of us numerous lumpstick alternatives. What’s unique about this particular LS intake port we have chosen is it’s very unusual ability to maintain +300 cfm flow numbers all the way up to .800 lift which is where we stopped our flow testing. As you know there are PLENTY of aftermarket camshaft grinds available for this very popular 4.00 inch bore motor. We end users will be able to explore a myriad of profiles to fit what the Forum members are trying to achieve e.g. exceptional HP & Torque numbers for most any conceivable application. Whether you are “toilet bowl racing,” mudslinging, drag racing, tractor pulling, et. al. WE intend to fully explore the potential of our X-Flow creation with EXTENSIVE Dyno work over a considerable time period.

Last point>>> for some who have stated they will never consider a GM based anything! When the finished product is completed AL our valued machinist has just stated “Everyone will think it is an aluminum billet” We are even going to the trouble of providing you with a front mounting hole water passage opening that will utilize any stock Ford coolant hose elbow to include your choice of off the shelf thermosets. Attention to detail is nothing other than a commitment to strive for near perfection which has been our promise to each other, before we even began on this exciting adventure. Gramps

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #106 by Wesman07 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:15 am

It would be silly not to use a product because it uses the technology founded by a competitor. Auto manufacturers steal each other’s designs all the time! You’d be a fool not to!
In-lines we trust

86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #107 by Turbof100 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:57 pm

For the crossflow head any thought about using a pro port style head with no valve guides, and drilling for valve guides after welding to allow for proper valve guide spacing and pushrod alignment. Also interest in how the head will be fixture for welding I had some ls heads welded and the center section lifted while welding
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #108 by WorldChampGramp » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:06 am

Turbof100 wrote:For the crossflow head any thought about using a pro port style head with no valve guides, and drilling for valve guides after welding to allow for proper valve guide spacing and pushrod alignment. Also interest in how the head will be fixture for welding I had some ls heads welded and the center section lifted while welding


I have some questions for you. Do you know what type of Aluminum Castings these heads that lifted are? such as 355, 356 or 4XX etc. and what heat treating process was used by the casting source such as T5 or T6. Were thes NEW castings or heads that were used yanked from a doner vehicle.

SOME Aluminum castings, particularly those produced by the parent company GM, Cannot be welded due to their metalurgy. Did you pre heat these castings and if so to what temp. Did you clamp them to a solid plate or bare block. Please review your processing techniques and enlighten us all. This is the kind of VERY HELPFUL insight we are looking for as we move into the fabrication stage. Interesting Post Thank You. Gramps

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #109 by Stonebreaker » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:31 am

WorldChampGramp wrote: What’s unique about this particular LS intake port we have chosen is it’s very unusual ability to maintain +300 cfm flow numbers all the way up to .800 lift which is where we stopped our flow testing.


Thanks for the kind words, Gramps. Question: I've always wondered, why does a port's flow decrease when the valve lift gets higher? Never quite understood why that happens.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #110 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:42 pm

The backside of the valve face acts like an exit venturii - similar to the downstream side of a carb (below the boosters). If it gets too far away that effect is diminished. Also, as the valve gets closer to the bore wall - depending on the head design - some flow is restricted. That's what gives hemi and canted valve heads an advantage.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #111 by Turbof100 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:13 pm

Gramps the head was made from two stock 806 ls1 heads and bolted to a stock block with a little preheat before welding

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #112 by WorldChampGramp » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:29 am

Turbof100 wrote:Gramps the head was made from two stock 806 ls1 heads and bolted to a stock block with a little preheat before welding


Turbo F100: All fabrication feedback is important to us. :thumbup: Gramps

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #113 by Stonebreaker » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:53 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:The backside of the valve face acts like an exit venturii - similar to the downstream side of a carb (below the boosters). If it gets too far away that effect is diminished. Also, as the valve gets closer to the bore wall - depending on the head design - some flow is restricted. That's what gives hemi and canted valve heads an advantage.


But doesn't the low pressure generated by a venturi operate at right angles to the flow through a venturi? I'm having trouble picturing that in my head...

Good point about the bore wall.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #114 by pmuller9 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:41 am

Stonebreaker wrote: Question: I've always wondered, why does a port's flow decrease when the valve lift gets higher? Never quite understood why that happens.

This discussion is based on Flow Bench Readings which takes place at a constant depression or vacuum.

First a short explanation of valve curtain area.
The valve curtain area is defined as the flow window created by the open valve at maximum valve lift. To calculate valve curtain area you can’t go by the valve diameter itself. You have to use the flow diameter, which is where the actual valve seat begins and that is generally about .040-inch smaller than the measured valve diameter.
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As the valve opens the valve curtain area (VCA) determines the air flow until the VCA is equal to the throat area just below the valve seat.
As the valve opens past that point the throat area is now the restriction and as the valve lifts further you see diminishing returns
The point where the VCA equals the throat area occurs when the valve lift is just less than ¼ of the valve diameter.
So what you see is a fairly linear slope to that point then the CFM graph flattens out.

There is a second force in play that has to do with port angle.
As the valve lift increases, the port flow velocity increases.
At low valve lift and flow velocity the airflow will turn around the short turn radius but as the velocity increases the airflow will head towards the other side of the valve opening rather than make the turn.
This effectively decreases the throat area and in some cases you will actually see the port flow decrease as the valve continues to open.

As the port angle is decreased by design the port flow is improved at several levels.
We are looking at accomplishing this with the new cross flow head.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #115 by WorldChampGramp » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:46 pm

Very Well stated "Dr Muller": are you sure you don't have another degree in fluid dynamics?

If I may there is also a 3RD very important factor to the above detailed summary. Think of it this way, let's discuss a typical almost right angle intake port (except for the inclined valve stem angle) Remember all those pre-aftermarket readily unavailable days when we had to make do with the SBF heads even to include the canted valve Cleveland!! In the flow lab at Ford, we tried most everything to [get more charge into the cylinder] over the complete valve lift event cycle. On several occasions we were able to coach the port into flowing more air by introducing swirl in what we named the “toilet bowl principle”. You may have already read of this over the years elsewhere but most of information seems to be geared to PHD’s in engineering and not we grass roots racers. PRIME examples of what we are doing are the (2) u-head projects we are currently working on with fixed as cast confinements in port size and valve/port angularity. We are getting very close to being able to offer a unique proprietary intake vane which will introduce the 3RD very important factor of “toilet Bowl” dynamics. Thus far, without giving the farm away, we have been able to substantially increase the u-head intake port CFM in the 0.400 lift to 0.700 lift range over the non-vane equivalent. This should raise a few eyebrows and maybe more importantly renewed hope/interest for the old stand by u-flow.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #116 by WorldChampGramp » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:52 pm

OOPS Forget to give you this additional HOPE

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #117 by WorldChampGramp » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:58 am

Making progress on all fronts. Sectioning of used castings for mockup almost complete. Bandsaw sectioning is unacceptable so we have purchased a new 14" Multiblade Chop saw and are in process of modifying for repeatable section to section accuracy. Changes include Retrofitting a new laser system and new rear fence for square cuts which is testing Gramps' creativity in a good way. ONE IMPORTANT request of the Forum. If anyone has prints of the 240-300 block I will gladly purchase for our machining center programing as it relates to all of our cylinder head development efforts. Have a great week. Bruce


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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #118 by CNC-Dude » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:52 am

I have a cylinder head blueprint, but I was asked by the person that provided them not to let them be used for public consumption. There may be archives in the dungeon of Ford's black op sites that have them, that's probably where these I have originated.
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #119 by WorldChampGramp » Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:24 pm

CNC-Dude wrote:I have a cylinder head blueprint, but I was asked by the person that provided them not to let them be used for public consumption. There may be archives in the dungeon of Ford's black op sites that have them, that's probably where these I have originated.


CNC Dude. I don't consider myself "Public Consumption". R U saying you are not willing to send me a [personal use only] copy for the for the benefit of ALL on this forum? Let me and the other interested members know, a detailed response from you is anticipated. Bruce

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #120 by CNC-Dude » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:13 pm

Bruce, the person that shared it with me did so with the understanding on my part that I would only use it for my personal use to develop a racing/performance head I am developing. And not share or disclose how or where I obtained them. They felt that there may be repercussions on them if it was discovered they even had possession of these documents because of Ford privacy laws and copyrights. So to honor my agreement to this person, I can't share them.
But I will say, I have CMM'ed several heads and they are pretty much spot on with the prints. You could even try reaching out to Ambrose or some other top Ford Comp inline racer, I'm sure he can access anything in Ford's secret vaults you could ever imagine.
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #121 by fordwideman » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:45 pm

Just thought I would ask if Gramps, pmuller9, cncdude, FTF or others involved had anything new on the cross flow head???? :idea: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #122 by pmuller9 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:13 pm

fordwideman wrote:Just thought I would ask if Gramps, pmuller9, cncdude, FTF or others involved had anything new on the cross flow head???? :idea: :roll: :roll: :roll:
Fordwideman

Presently working on fixtures for different procedures.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #123 by CNC-Dude » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:55 am

Many new products are in the works for the Ford 240/300 engines from me. Some have never been created before, so exciting times lay ahead. I can't say at this time what some of them are because experience has shown that trolls scour a lot of forums seeking to undermine the efforts of those creating products, unfortunately. So as the time gets closer to update the progress and status of these items, I'll be sure to keep everyone informed.
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #124 by pmuller9 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:35 pm

Just a quick update:
Gramps drove up from Fort Meyers to firm up resources along the way and is presently in Michigan where he will finish business.
I met with Gramps and 3 others in Ohio yesterday for a fun visit and to look over a few things.
He will be back next week and is expecting to make fast progress on the crossflow head.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #125 by Galaxie 300i6 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:47 am

Thanks for the update. I love hearing about progress on this.

Jonathan.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #126 by WorldChampGramp » Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:30 am

Gramps reporting in: Tomorrow I fly back from MI to FL sure beats driving solo. This was an eventful trip for me and all those involved in this exceptional opportunity of public good. Soon you will be able to purchase a USER FRIENDLY cross flow Aluminum Head at a reasonable price that will outperform any other x-flow on the market. To everyone’s delight, we are pressing forward on the cross flow program as our #1 priority with the (2) u-flow offerings in 2nd & 3rd priority position. Next week we will finalize our tooling for the sectioning and CNC machining processes, then experiment with various tig welding combinations on used castings, prior to attempting a new casting 3-piece first run head. As Paul Muller stated a few days ago, last Wednesday we met in the Cincinnati Area, renewed old race car acquaintances, some I haven’t seen in 40+ years. In this week long trip I have been able to recruit some of these talented individuals for our prototype development efforts, who are likewise committed to our success and are contributing in various ways to assist us in the exciting adventure. We now have most of the Ford engine prints in hand and have promises that more will be supplied if and when we express the need. Your continued interest in this effort has spurred me and my associates on to an even greater level of commitment and resolve. We now have more than a dozen individuals involved and I am happy to report many are visiting FORDSIX.com for the first time and check in every few days to feel the pulse of this outstanding performance platform. They never knew all of you were here and are impressed with your level of knowledge and unconditional support and respect for each other.
Kudos to ALL Bruce

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #127 by woodbutcher » Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:11 pm

:D Outstanding Gramps.Looking forward to all updates.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #128 by arse_sidewards » Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:29 pm

So with regards to pricing how many digits will be to the left of the decimal place?
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #129 by WorldChampGramp » Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:29 pm

arse_sidewards wrote:So with regards to pricing how many digits will be to the left of the decimal place?


For the bolt on crossflow 4 digits and BTW our development costs for the combined projects to date just crossed the magic 5 digit to the left of the decimal place 10K mark. :!: :bang:

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #130 by arse_sidewards » Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:00 pm

WorldChampGramp wrote:
arse_sidewards wrote:So with regards to pricing how many digits will be to the left of the decimal place?


For the bolt on crossflow 4 digits and BTW our development costs for the combined projects to date just crossed the magic 5 digit to the left of the decimal place 10K mark. :!: :bang:



I feel your pain on the development costs. I've sunk plenty of resources into stuff that never amounted to more than dead end personal projects.

It's nice to hear that the X-flow will be in the thousands and not the tens of thousands.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #131 by Lunatic Fringe » Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:10 am

FYI, the Edelbrock 4.0 Jeep head is $1700 at 1 of the resellers AND it's a street head, not a race head.

Plus the reality is they need to make a profit in order to continue to create more goodies.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #132 by guhfluh » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:21 pm

Not that I want the price to be north of 3 digits for anything, but just a FYI for those wondering prices on things, I had a quote for CNC porting and larger valves on my stock head that was over $1200.00. I ended up staying with stock valves and only mildly porting it myself. Sure, porting and valves can be had cheaper, but the good stuff isn't always cheap.
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240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #133 by rodneytxps » Tue May 01, 2018 11:09 am

I have been following for a while, finally registered. I'm excited by this progress, great info!
Thanks

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #134 by BigBlue94 » Tue May 01, 2018 12:27 pm

Lunatic Fringe wrote:FYI, the Edelbrock 4.0 Jeep head is $1700 at 1 of the resellers AND it's a street head, not a race head.

Plus the reality is they need to make a profit in order to continue to create more goodies.


I only see the eddy 4.0 jeep heads at like 3000+... where did you see 1700?

I received a PM today regarding my interest in one of these heads. I am interested as long as the crossflow is around the 2000 mark. I'm gonna hold off on any work to my head for one of these. It will be going in an 85 bronco, np435, lockers, 4.56 gears, and 37" tires.

I had some concerns however. I saw it would clear a stock distributor, but what about an HEI from wsa111?

Also I have a set of headers that were just jet-hotted, and would like to use them and my custom exhaust with the crossflow. Possible?

I have a Clifford 6=8 intake, single 4bbl carb model. Will it work with the crossflow? Not sure if many have experience with this manifold, but it DOES have bosses for injectors cast in each runner just before where the runners meet the head.

Have you pondered what to do about intake and exhaust gaskets?
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #135 by WorldChampGramp » Tue May 01, 2018 1:52 pm

BigBlue94 wrote:
Lunatic Fringe wrote:FYI, the Edelbrock 4.0 Jeep head is $1700 at 1 of the resellers AND it's a street head, not a race head.

Plus the reality is they need to make a profit in order to continue to create more goodies.


I only see the eddy 4.0 jeep heads at like 3000+... where did you see 1700?

I received a PM today regarding my interest in one of these heads. I am interested as long as the crossflow is around the 2000 mark. I'm gonna hold off on any work to my head for one of these. It will be going in an 85 bronco, np435, lockers, 4.56 gears, and 37" tires.

I had some concerns however. I saw it would clear a stock distributor, but what about an HEI from wsa111?

Also I have a set of headers that were just jet-hotted, and would like to use them and my custom exhaust with the crossflow. Possible?

I have a Clifford 6=8 intake, single 4bbl carb model. Will it work with the crossflow? Not sure if many have experience with this manifold, but it DOES have bosses for injectors cast in each runner just before where the runners meet the head.

Have you pondered what to do about intake and exhaust gaskets?


BigBlue:
Thanks for your thought provoking post. First, I checked with ALL my associates who are active in this forum and none of us recently sent you or anyone else a PM. So I can only comment on our project as it relates to your cross flow questions.
1. We have not checked for HEI distributor clearance and may not for quite some time.
2. A combined answer to your (3) part question: We will offer CNC adaptor plates that will bolt to the cross flow head and give you the ability to use any stock Ford or aftermarket manifold that MATCHES THE PRODUCTION head face. We will offer these adaptor plates that will use readily available LS intake gaskets for the cylinder head side of the adaptor. We have NO plans to offer any adaptor plates for the exhaust side as (in our opinion) most anything you now have or can purchase to include aftermarket hedders will be a considerable restriction. Hope this helps Gramps

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #136 by Lunatic Fringe » Tue May 01, 2018 2:36 pm

BigBlue94 wrote:
Lunatic Fringe wrote:FYI, the Edelbrock 4.0 Jeep head is $1700 at 1 of the resellers AND it's a street head, not a race head.

Plus the reality is they need to make a profit in order to continue to create more goodies.


I only see the eddy 4.0 jeep heads at like 3000+... where did you see 1700?

I received a PM today regarding my interest in one of these heads. I am interested as long as the crossflow is around the 2000 mark. I'm gonna hold off on any work to my head for one of these. It will be going in an 85 bronco, np435, lockers, 4.56 gears, and 37" tires.

I had some concerns however. I saw it would clear a stock distributor, but what about an HEI from wsa111?

Also I have a set of headers that were just jet-hotted, and would like to use them and my custom exhaust with the crossflow. Possible?

I have a Clifford 6=8 intake, single 4bbl carb model. Will it work with the crossflow? Not sure if many have experience with this manifold, but it DOES have bosses for injectors cast in each runner just before where the runners meet the head.

Have you pondered what to do about intake and exhaust gaskets?


$1692.50 at Jegs. Remember I'm only using this as a reference, not as an indicator of where the price of the cross flow will be.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #137 by arse_sidewards » Tue May 01, 2018 3:37 pm

WorldChampGramp wrote:2. A combined answer to your (3) part question: We will offer CNC adaptor plates that will bolt to the cross flow head and give you the ability to use any stock Ford or aftermarket manifold that MATCHES THE PRODUCTION head face. We will offer these adaptor plates that will use readily available LS intake gaskets for the cylinder head side of the adapter. We have NO plans to offer any adaptor plates for the exhaust side as (in our opinion) most anything you now have or can purchase to include aftermarket hedders will be a considerable restriction. Hope this helps Gramps


I think the intake adapter is a great idea for a whole bunch of reasons not least because it drastically reduces the amount of time/effort/money required to go from putting a new head on the vehicle to making the vehicle actually go. :thumbup:

If I get a head I'll be making a set of shorty headers that result in the outlets being in exactly the same place as a pair of EFI manifolds would put them just for convenience sake. I like my current quiet exhaust even if it would be a restriction with the LS head. It can always be upgraded later. Your decision about the exhaust is perfectly rational. Focus on getting the head done. Don't get side tracked on minor details.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #138 by Wesman07 » Tue May 01, 2018 3:53 pm

WorldChampGramp wrote:
BigBlue94 wrote:
Lunatic Fringe wrote:FYI, the Edelbrock 4.0 Jeep head is $1700 at 1 of the resellers AND it's a street head, not a race head.

Plus the reality is they need to make a profit in order to continue to create more goodies.


I only see the eddy 4.0 jeep heads at like 3000+... where did you see 1700?

I received a PM today regarding my interest in one of these heads. I am interested as long as the crossflow is around the 2000 mark. I'm gonna hold off on any work to my head for one of these. It will be going in an 85 bronco, np435, lockers, 4.56 gears, and 37" tires.

I had some concerns however. I saw it would clear a stock distributor, but what about an HEI from wsa111?

Also I have a set of headers that were just jet-hotted, and would like to use them and my custom exhaust with the crossflow. Possible?

I have a Clifford 6=8 intake, single 4bbl carb model. Will it work with the crossflow? Not sure if many have experience with this manifold, but it DOES have bosses for injectors cast in each runner just before where the runners meet the head.

Have you pondered what to do about intake and exhaust gaskets?


BigBlue:
Thanks for your thought provoking post. First, I checked with ALL my associates who are active in this forum and none of us recently sent you or anyone else a PM. So I can only comment on our project as it relates to your cross flow questions.
1. We have not checked for HEI distributor clearance and may not for quite some time.
2. A combined answer to your (3) part question: We will offer CNC adaptor plates that will bolt to the cross flow head and give you the ability to use any stock Ford or aftermarket manifold that MATCHES THE PRODUCTION head face. We will offer these adaptor plates that will use readily available LS intake gaskets for the cylinder head side of the adaptor. We have NO plans to offer any adaptor plates for the exhaust side as (in our opinion) most anything you now have or can purchase to include aftermarket hedders will be a considerable restriction. Hope this helps Gramps


Bruce, The pm was sent by me.
In-lines we trust

86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #139 by BigBlue94 » Tue May 01, 2018 3:59 pm

WorldChampGramp wrote:
BigBlue:
Thanks for your thought provoking post. First, I checked with ALL my associates who are active in this forum and none of us recently sent you or anyone else a PM. So I can only comment on our project as it relates to your cross flow questions.
1. We have not checked for HEI distributor clearance and may not for quite some time.
2. A combined answer to your (3) part question: We will offer CNC adaptor plates that will bolt to the cross flow head and give you the ability to use any stock Ford or aftermarket manifold that MATCHES THE PRODUCTION head face. We will offer these adaptor plates that will use readily available LS intake gaskets for the cylinder head side of the adaptor. We have NO plans to offer any adaptor plates for the exhaust side as (in our opinion) most anything you now have or can purchase to include aftermarket hedders will be a considerable restriction. Hope this helps Gramps


Gramps, the member who PMd me is a poster in this thread, and maybe just trying to get more people to chime in here.

1.) So the best option at this point in the process for a distributor is a DSII? I currently have a retrofitted points distributor, so I'll be upgrading that.

2.) So then what are the options for exhaust? Just full out custom? That may drive some people away. I don't consider this a minor detail, and am surprised to have not seen it discussed. My headers are 1.5" primaries and 2.5" 3 into 1 collectors. 2.5" downpipes into a 3" single pipe. I could make my own adapter I suppose, ive got a mill and know how to use it. I've got over $1000 in new exhaust that I'm not willing to scrap. Thats my 'deal breaker' so maybe the crossflow is not for me, as much as I'd love to have one.

This is gonna require some thought on my end.

The max flow u-port may be better suited to my application. I'd like to hear a little more about that, including comparison to a max ported stock head and estimated target price range. I understand these are on the back burner, so any info is appreciated.

I applaud and appreciate the effort you are going through!
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #140 by pmuller9 » Tue May 01, 2018 6:50 pm

BigBlue94 wrote:1.) So the best option at this point in the process for a distributor is a DSII? I currently have a retrofitted points distributor, so I'll be upgrading that.

2.) So then what are the options for exhaust? Just full out custom? That may drive some people away. I don't consider this a minor detail, and am surprised to have not seen it discussed. My headers are 1.5" primaries and 2.5" 3 into 1 collectors. 2.5" downpipes into a 3" single pipe. I could make my own adapter I suppose, ive got a mill and know how to use it. I've got over $1000 in new exhaust that I'm not willing to scrap. Thats my 'deal breaker' so maybe the crossflow is not for me, as much as I'd love to have one.

This is gonna require some thought on my end.

The max flow u-port may be better suited to my application. I'd like to hear a little more about that, including comparison to a max ported stock head and estimated target price range. I understand these are on the back burner, so any info is appreciated.

I applaud and appreciate the effort you are going through!

Your questions are very good and it is those type of questions that help us formulate a better plan.

As soon as the first crossflow head is complete we will assemble a 300 engine and test the head on a Dyno.
This will give us a chance to work through both intake and exhaust manifold possibilies along with distributor clearance.
Then everyone will have a better picture of form fit and function for their application.

The recommended header primary tube size is 1 3/4" for performance street use.
The 1 5/8" 300 header with an adaptor plate would be OK for a lower power application but that defeats the purpose of the crossflow head.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #141 by BigBlue94 » Tue May 01, 2018 7:13 pm

I just measured my unknown brand headers. 1-5/8 primaries, with 1.5 x 1.75 ports.

One benefit to me of the crossflow design is removing the exhaust heat from soaking into the intake manifold. I'd rather my intake be water temp than exhaust temp.

It seems to me that the main target of the crossflow is people who want to go beyond 6000 rpm. I don't consider myself in that group, though I've been known to hit 5000 rpm. It seems a maxed out u-port would be more than sufficient for a 300hp truck build. I'm gathering that I probably would never see the full benefit of the crossflow. Am I assuming correctly?

That's why I'm interested in the stats for mildly ported stock heads vs max flow. I'm confident in my engine builder to produce a quality port job on my current head, which he currently has in his possession. Being budget limited, I can't spend money twice, I'm sure you all understand that.

I tend to want the best, when the best may not be what's best for my application.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #142 by WorldChampGramp » Tue May 01, 2018 8:29 pm

For Clarity this is a 3-fold effort
1-New U-Head mild porting seat/throat work with adequate flow to make at least 250HP on pump gas
2-New Max Flow U-Head target maximum HP 425+ NOT on pump gas at higher HP capability
3-New Fabricated Aluminum Cross Flow with exceptional intake and exhaust flow to make 550+ HP
All offerings will be bolt on and require very little of no additional customer modifications for operation.
EVERY effort is being made and EVERY Conceivable design feature is or will be investigated to make all three of these unique offerings USER FRIENDLY. Those who know me e.g. Paul Muller et. al. understand my passion and dedication to seeing these (3) projects thru to completion. Gramps

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #143 by Dr Deadeye » Wed May 02, 2018 6:05 am

Hello Folks;
I am so spun up about these head options that I finally joined the site. Been reading for quite awhile now trying to acquire as much knowledge as I can to make a few upgrades on my 1966 F-250 4X4. I have already installed a Ranger Torque Splitter & acquired, but not installed new Offy C series, Holley 8007 390 cfm, Chevy 1.72 rockers & NOS HD manifold.

What material should I use to block off the opening where heat riser should be between the two manifolds? Stainless steel? Should I fill the void?

What suggestions can you give me as to improvements to intake manifold? Porting? Divider plate? Lump floor? Ceramic coating?

Same question for NOS HD exhaust manifold. Porting, ceramic coating?

Thanks.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #144 by BigBlue94 » Wed May 02, 2018 9:53 am

WorldChampGramp wrote:For Clarity this is a 3-fold effort
1-New U-Head mild porting seat/throat work with adequate flow to make at least 250HP on pump gas
2-New Max Flow U-Head target maximum HP 425+ NOT on pump gas at higher HP capability
3-New Fabricated Aluminum Cross Flow with exceptional intake and exhaust flow to make 550+ HP
All offerings will be bolt on and require very little of no additional customer modifications for operation.
EVERY effort is being made and EVERY Conceivable design feature is or will be investigated to make all three of these unique offerings USER FRIENDLY. Those who know me e.g. Paul Muller et. al. understand my passion and dedication to seeing these (3) projects thru to completion. Gramps


I don't know you from adam, but can see your dedication. In no way was I doubting you're ability or thought processes.

Appreciate the clarification. The target usages are what I was looking for. I've built some far less complicated items, and know how painstaking the r&d process can be.

If I can help at all, feel free to ask. I'll be following still
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #145 by arse_sidewards » Wed May 02, 2018 10:42 am

BigBlue94 wrote:2.) So then what are the options for exhaust? Just full out custom? That may drive some people away.


For a basic adapter you could just weld short lengths of tube between two header flanges. A little more involved would be shorty headers that dump out in the same place as the EFI manifolds (this is my personal preference based on the information currently availible). You could make a 6 into 1 "shrub" (well it's not a header, not really a log manifold and it's too short and wide to be a tree so therefore it's a shrub) that puts the outlet in the same position relative to the block as the carb or HD manifold.

For a one piece adapter some people are going to want an adapter thick enough they can drill and tap the top for oxygen sensors or temp probes. Some people are not going to have room for an adapter that thick.

If you don't mind doing a heck of a lot port matching of it you could overlay both gaskets CNC out the common area, do a short plunge where the holes need to be then finish drilling the holes by hand and port match for final fitment.

If header flanges for the X-flow had material in the places needed to accommodate the mounting points for the stock manifolds you could just use a gasket and transfer punch to locate the holes then bolt up whatever exhaust you already have and port match it thereby creating your own.

Any one piece adapter will need to be thick enough to counter sink the whatever fasteners are holding it to the head and not provide a leak path.

At the end of the day it's just a bunch of holes located in a chunk of flat stock. If this is really going to be a sticking point I'm sure it would be possible to whip up a basic adapter and publish the cad drawing.

Still, without having final word on what the donor application for the exhaust ports is and what their spacing will be all of this is just speculation because those details would greatly impact the practicality of possible solutions.

The potential market of an intake adapter is almost the same as the potential market of the new head. The potential market of any particular exhaust adapter is going to be a fraction of that size. A huge chunk of potential X-flow customers have specific requirements that make an adapter not practical (e.g. planning on building a turbo manifold or application specific headers anyway). Exhaust is much more commonly DIYed than intake so not offering anything more than a header flange is a more acceptable solution.

He only said that he isn't going to produce an adapter, not that it would be difficult or expensive to make one. I agree with his decision not to make one. Exhaust is a really deep rabbit hole and I don't think it's worth getting bogged down there unless it actually proves to be an issue that's preventing the X-flow from being viable.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #146 by 82F100 » Sat May 05, 2018 8:46 pm

Bruce,
I'm more interested in a stage II U-Flow head as the rules that I'm basing the build of my car dictates the use of a factory cast iron head.But will be watching with anticipation of the developement of all 3 of the performance head platforms.
300's make good truck motors....not race motors

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #147 by WorldChampGramp » Sun May 06, 2018 7:35 pm

82F100 wrote:Bruce,
I'm more interested in a stage II U-Flow head as the rules that I'm basing the build of my car dictates the use of a factory cast iron head.But will be watching with anticipation of the developement of all 3 of the performance head platforms.


Your comments and preference are dully noted. Sometimes I’m not sure if it’s all work and no play or all play and no work. My Saturdays of volunteer shop hour credits (see attached) will hopefully pay off when we start the Big Six Dyno program. Making good progress but slower than Gramps had planned on. I will update all of you as time permits.

Gramps in Dyno Room-Saturday Fun.jpg
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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #148 by Stonebreaker » Wed May 09, 2018 2:23 pm

BigBlue94 wrote:
2.) So then what are the options for exhaust? Just full out custom? That may drive some people away. I don't consider this a minor detail, and am surprised to have not seen it discussed. My headers are 1.5" primaries and 2.5" 3 into 1 collectors. 2.5" downpipes into a 3" single pipe. I could make my own adapter I suppose, ive got a mill and know how to use it. I've got over $1000 in new exhaust that I'm not willing to scrap. Thats my 'deal breaker' so maybe the crossflow is not for me, as much as I'd love to have one.

This is gonna require some thought on my end.

The max flow u-port may be better suited to my application. I'd like to hear a little more about that, including comparison to a max ported stock head and estimated target price range. I understand these are on the back burner, so any info is appreciated.

I applaud and appreciate the effort you are going through!


1.75" is the smallest header primary you can normally find for LS heads due to the exhaust port shape - 1.5" tall x 1.75" wide. Below is a diagram of a 1.75" diameter header flange for the LS engines I found at Grumpy's Performance. The LS heads run D-style exhaust ports, so the total area of the port doesn't exceed the area of a 1.5" diameter primary by much; So if you were to do some creative stretching on the mouths of the primaries and attach them to a custom exhaust flange, you could create a set of headers with a stronger scavenging signal than most commercially available LS headers without restricting the exhaust much.

Image

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #149 by pmuller9 » Wed May 09, 2018 3:49 pm

LS heads use "D" shaped exhaust ports but the crossflow head for the Ford 300 six will have round exhaust ports.

As I discussed previously, an adapter can be made that has a port floor wedge extension to convert the exhaust port to a "D" shape while adapting the Ford 300 six header to the head.

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Re: Permanent 300 Six Cyl Head CFM solutions- A Work in Progress

Post #150 by WorldChampGramp » Sun May 20, 2018 11:27 am

Progress Report from Gramps;
We have acquired all the new and used cylinder heads necessary to proceed with all three (3) programs outlined elsewhere in this thread.

Our first priority is the street/strip U-Head, now dubbed (1U) all reasonable design alternatives have been fully explored as to the flow potential of I/E ports and we are working now to adapt these finds to the CNC machine for consistent finished product results.
Our decision to make this our #1 priority is primarily based on the level of interest expressed in this Forum and the obvious demand for the least expensive most popular alternative first. We anticipate having a finished #1U head assembled and ready for Dyno testing in 30 days or less.

For the record the intake valve size of this head is the popular 1.94 diameter with complementary exhaust size of 1.6”. The intake and exhaust port openings match the popular Fel-Pro and Mr Gasket aftermarket dimensions making the end user gasket selection straight forward.

Encouraging results of overall flow numbers up to and beyond .650 lift were not anticipated and are considered a bonus for whoever uses this #1U NEW casting offering. Undecided at this juncture is just whether we will off this head naked and/or with valves, springs retainers and locks. As always Your Comments are gladly accepted. Bruce :idea:

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