Race engine thread

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Josh Jones
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Race engine thread

Post #1 by Josh Jones » Wed May 23, 2018 12:12 am

Six cylinder mud race class engine. Only rule is no power adders and must have been an option for the make and model.

I have been told the following:
240 head (got it)
300 crankshaft (got it)
240 connecting rods (got it)
custom pistons
12.5:1 compression ratio
solid flat tappet camshaft or solid roller

All of that is fine and good but thats like reading the cover to a magazine!



This engine is ok for riding around and low range low behind that it's power is way to low in the rpm range.
The current 300 is built as follows:
1984 300 short block bored .060 (4.060) cast pistons
brand-new reproduction 1996 style head
Comp hyd camshaft: 252H 206/206dur at 50 .433lift
Scorpion Pedistal rockers
Trend Pushrods 10.300(.080 wall) & 10.275 (.135 wall) !!MONSTERS!! All I can figure is the new cast cylinder head has a thicker deck.
Ofenhouser dual port intake
Edelbrock 500cfm carburator
2" four hole carb spacer (linkage clearance)
duraspark distrubutor (recurved)

The current engine wasn't built to be a race engine, it was built with parts that were easy to get. (The pushrods were off the shelf items from Trend, that was the only size they offered off the shelf in those lengths.) I never cc'd the pistons or the combustion chambers. (I never checked cam timing either!)

I have a very nice 1968 model 240 engine I'm starting with for this purpose built race engine.

Do we have any known race engine builds for reference?
Anyone here offset grind, lighten and balance rotating assemblies?
Do we have anyone with a cylinder head program, larger valves, chamber etc?

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THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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Re: Race engine thread

Post #2 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed May 23, 2018 8:27 am

I've built "a few" U-flow engines in the 300 - 360 RWHP range.
To get there you'll heed the following:

Cam w/ .600 - .650 lift in the 280 - 284 duration range (I use roller cams)
early carbed head
bored w/ a honing plate
3/8" pushrods
stud girdle
at least 1.90 intake valves
Custom (3) 2V intake with 4V equivalent cfm in the 800 - 1100 cfm range
head studs

That's what it takes for me to get there. Maybe you're smarter than me (lots of people are) and you can do it with less. I think I'd discard the EFI head plan, the 5/16 pushrods, the inadequate intake and carb, and if you have your heart set on a 4.060 bore block fill the water passages with Hard Blok to within an inch of the top.

Good luck with your project.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #3 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed May 23, 2018 8:31 am

More thoughts:
Don't offset grind the crank. Use SBC rod bearing size.
Definitely have it all balanced.
Knife edge the forged crank and lighten it if you can afford to.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #4 by Josh Jones » Wed May 23, 2018 10:34 am

Bring up a good question. It obvious the cylinder head is the choke point of these engines but has engines preformed better with longer strokes or larger bores? (Common sense says the more time you have to pull air under vacuum the better)
Or
Shorter stroke and larger bores?

What is the best intake manifold we have available for this type of build today? (Staying with a off shelf casting) I’m trying to decide if The Ofenhouser C or the Clifford dual Weber? My issue with the Weber is the carburetor has to be snorkel’d to keep water out of the engine.

This isn’t a “endurance” build and as you said I can always fill the block and run water in the head.
The 300 will stay as what it is and I will build the virgin 240 Block as the race engine. I’m on the hunt for a good machine shop that could knock out this work.
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #5 by Josh Jones » Wed May 23, 2018 10:38 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I've built "a few" U-flow engines in the 300 - 360 RWHP range.
To get there you'll heed the following:

Cam w/ .600 - .650 lift in the 280 - 284 duration range (I use roller cams)
early carbed head
bored w/ a honing plate
3/8" pushrods
stud girdle
at least 1.90 intake valves
Custom (3) 2V intake with 4V equivalent cfm in the 800 - 1100 cfm range
head studs

That's what it takes for me to get there. Maybe you're smarter than me (lots of people are) and you can do it with less. I think I'd discard the EFI head plan, the 5/16 pushrods, the inadequate intake and carb, and if you have your heart set on a 4.060 bore block fill the water passages with Hard Blok to within an inch of the top.

Good luck with your project.


Who do you use for your camshafts? Is the lifters bushed or link bar? Off the shelf part number?
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #6 by Josh Jones » Wed May 23, 2018 10:49 am

Picture of the current setup. It sounds mean and aggressive and has great low end but low end trq.!

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #7 by arse_sidewards » Wed May 23, 2018 1:39 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:More thoughts:
Don't offset grind the crank. Use SBC rod bearing size.
Definitely have it all balanced.
Knife edge the forged crank and lighten it if you can afford to.


Along those same lines, do you have any idea what the rotational imbalance for each cylinder on a stock 300 is?
1994 F150 4x4 8ft EEC-IV
-460 rocker arm Guinea Pig: 3rd world quality "file to fit" machining

-exhaust leak that sounds like a bucket of playing cards being fed into the radiator fan
-66" leafs ('11 Superduty), extended radius arms.

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #8 by pmuller9 » Wed May 23, 2018 4:32 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I've built "a few" U-flow engines in the 300 - 360 RWHP range.
To get there you'll heed the following:
Cam w/ .600 - .650 lift in the 280 - 284 duration range (I use roller cams)
early carbed head

What is the .050" duration?
Last edited by pmuller9 on Wed May 23, 2018 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #9 by pmuller9 » Wed May 23, 2018 4:34 pm

Josh
Is the 300 crankshaft you have a cast iron or forged steel.
How much horsepower do you need?
Do you need a wide power band or short, high rpm high horsepower type of power?

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #10 by Josh Jones » Wed May 23, 2018 7:41 pm

I’m told that I need a lot wider rpm range. It’s easier to just show you a video. This is my first runs so please be easy on me! I had water issues and stuck WOT from the start. The Edeljunk linkage was over center and only running on the main circuit.

https://youtu.be/4145-Kr-jr8
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #11 by Josh Jones » Wed May 23, 2018 7:54 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Josh
Is the 300 crankshaft you have a cast iron or forged steel.
How much horsepower do you need?
Do you need a wide power band or short, high rpm high horsepower type of power?


As far as I know they are all cast. I ought to do some research and see what the Forged units came in!
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #12 by Shorty » Wed May 23, 2018 10:46 pm

That looks fun man I want to try that. I am curious what axle ratios you run? What size tires? What tranny and transfercase? Do you use traction aids (spool/locker)? How often do you end up changing out your wiper motor?
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #13 by Wesman07 » Wed May 23, 2018 11:19 pm

How etched is your windshield?
In-lines we trust

86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #14 by Josh Jones » Wed May 23, 2018 11:39 pm

Shorty wrote:That looks fun man I want to try that. I am curious what axle ratios you run? What size tires? What tranny and transfercase? Do you use traction aids (spool/locker)? How often do you end up changing out your wiper motor?


Currently the gears are 3.08 with limited slip rear open front (factory)
Tires are 31x10-15 on 15x8 steel wheels (Federal)
New Process 435 transmission (factory)
New Process 208f (factory)
"Spec Clutch" 100% Kevlar

I have all the parts to re-gear and re-build the front and rear axles.
Detroit True Trac for the front axle
4.11 gears at both ends
I haven't changed gears yet because I can't decide if I want to go to a 34" tall tire or stay with a 31". Everyone but one truck are running 31-32" tires. I originally planned to buy the 34x9.5 TSL tires but I don't know!
In the video I ran 2 high, I wanted to run 3rd but the engine didn't have enough grunt to pull the water pits and shifting gears really zaps the momentum. One thing I am very happy with is the full Kevlar clutch material! It doesn't weld up like sintered copper and it will slip unlike the copper.

I use a lot of Rain-x! The wipers are almost too slow for some situations, it seems like eternity when you can't see and waiting for the wipers to come back by! Faster trucks use a 20-30gal water tank, electric water pump and spray nozzle's to keep a steady stream of water on the windshield.
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #15 by Josh Jones » Wed May 23, 2018 11:42 pm

Wesman07 wrote:How etched is your windshield?


None so far but I keep it waxed.
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #16 by Wesman07 » Thu May 24, 2018 8:18 am

Josh Jones wrote:
Shorty wrote:That looks fun man I want to try that. I am curious what axle ratios you run? What size tires? What tranny and transfercase? Do you use traction aids (spool/locker)? How often do you end up changing out your wiper motor?


Currently the gears are 3.08 with limited slip rear open front (factory)
Tires are 31x10-15 on 15x8 steel wheels (Federal)
New Process 435 transmission (factory)
New Process 208f (factory)
"Spec Clutch" 100% Kevlar

I have all the parts to re-gear and re-build the front and rear axles.
Detroit True Trac for the front axle
4.11 gears at both ends
I haven't changed gears yet because I can't decide if I want to go to a 34" tall tire or stay with a 31". Everyone but one truck are running 31-32" tires. I originally planned to buy the 34x9.5 TSL tires but I don't know!
In the video I ran 2 high, I wanted to run 3rd but the engine didn't have enough grunt to pull the water pits and shifting gears really zaps the momentum. One thing I am very happy with is the full Kevlar clutch material! It doesn't weld up like sintered copper and it will slip unlike the copper.

I use a lot of Rain-x! The wipers are almost too slow for some situations, it seems like eternity when you can't see and waiting for the wipers to come back by! Faster trucks use a 20-30gal water tank, electric water pump and spray nozzle's to keep a steady stream of water on the windshield.



They are probably limiting tire size to 32 to keep axel breakage to a minimum. Chromo shafts and special u joints get expensive.

Do most people run front limited slips? I’ve found the front wants to plow straight through the turns unless the ruts are deep enough to keep you on track. A true trac is a unique design, when no power is applied there is no bias. Probably your best bet.

Have you tried running 4low and 4th gear? That is a good intermediate for 2hi 2-3rd
In-lines we trust

86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #17 by arse_sidewards » Thu May 24, 2018 9:31 am

A windshield wash nozzle mounted on the wiper arm like on some GMT800 vehicles would probably be of great benefit and wouldn't need much flow to work well since the water is delivered right at the wiper

You could ditch the passenger wiper arm and that would probably speed it up a little since it cuts the load on the motor in half.

I don't know the spec for our trucks but wiper motors generally don't go much faster than ~60 rpm.

The output shaft on the wiper gearbox is just a round shaft with a flat section and it mounts using a flange perpendicular to the shaft so it wouldn't be hard to adapt something else to it so long as you don't mind only having your only settings be off and all out.

Do you have to run street tires? R1 9.5-16s are ~33 tall and they do pretty damn well in the mud for what they cost.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft EEC-IV
-460 rocker arm Guinea Pig: 3rd world quality "file to fit" machining

-exhaust leak that sounds like a bucket of playing cards being fed into the radiator fan
-66" leafs ('11 Superduty), extended radius arms.

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #18 by Josh Jones » Thu May 24, 2018 12:51 pm

The tire rules for the 6 cylinder class require the tires to be DOT and un-cut. Only rules for tires in my class.
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #19 by Shorty » Thu May 24, 2018 6:44 pm

taller tires, if you have the gear and power to spin them, would help keep more of the body out of the water, thus cutting down the resistance to forward movement when the truck hits the water. Would you consider a spool in the rear? steer with the gas pedal and dig in and go in the water sections? Sorry, I am sidetracking this thread from "race engine" to "gears, tires and window wipers"
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #20 by Josh Jones » Thu May 24, 2018 10:45 pm

Shorty wrote:taller tires, if you have the gear and power to spin them, would help keep more of the body out of the water, thus cutting down the resistance to forward movement when the truck hits the water. Would you consider a spool in the rear? steer with the gas pedal and dig in and go in the water sections? Sorry, I am sidetracking this thread from "race engine" to "gears, tires and window wipers"


That was exactly what I was thinking, "pizza cutter's". Just threw me off when I saw all the 31-32" tall tires. I do have a complete 9" I planned to build once I figure more things out.
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #21 by pmuller9 » Thu May 24, 2018 11:19 pm

Josh
You wanted known race engine builds for reference so rather than just giving you my input I made a few phone calls.

Starting with the cylinder head:

I checked with the two shops that do machine port work on Ford 240/300 heads.
Sissells Automotive has a three axis machine to do the initial cut and then they finish the ports by hand.
C-Tech has a five axis machine but the new program needs some fine tuning.
The problem both shops have is related to core shift. It safer to machine the rough cut and finish the job by hand rather than trying to machine the entire job and run into the water jacket.
I had that happen to one of my heads at C-tech a few years ago.

What we (Bruce, Al and Myself) see is, by the time you machine the 3 angles for the larger valve which includes opening up the throat, the rest of the bowl work and blending can easily be done by hand.
The port walls are thin so the is very little material to remove however there are a few critical areas that provide very good gains with just a little attention. We will be monitoring wall thickness using a sonic tester during port work.

C-tech also builds engines for and sponsors Ford straight six circle track cars and Arnie was willing to share a lot of engine details.
The engines make power to 6800 rpm using solid flat tappet cam profiles with .050” durations in the mid 250 degree range and valve lifts at .600” on 105 degree LSA.
It is a racing gasoline class where roller cams are not allowed and neither is the EFI head so they use the 240 head.
Since the cams have such a tight LSA and a relatively short advertised duration, the intake valve closes fairly early limiting the compression ratio to 11.5.
Any higher compression results in a power loss.
Methanol would be a totally different story.

In your case where you dive into a mud hole and need the low end power to pull out and regain your momentum He felt that a little less duration around the high 240s would offer better torque just above 3000 rpm and still maintain good power at 6000 rpm. That puts your compression limit closer to 11:1
You can finish the combustion chambers to 74cc and use a flat top piston.

Back to the head:
Arnie said that by the time you un-shroud the 240 combustion chamber for the larger valves the volume is close to the 300 carb head so they end up with a small dome on the piston for 11.5 compression ratio.

We are seeing very good results so far with an un-shrouded version of the EQ head you have.
There appears to be a lot more material to work with. Will know more once we get a new probe for the sonic tester ($400)

A mechanical lifter cam with valves lifts .600” and above is best done with a BBC 1.7 ratio roller rocker on a 7/16” stud and 3/8” pushrods. I prefer steel roller rockers over aluminum.
The pushrod slots on the 240 head will need to be opened up. The EFI head would need pushrod guide plates.

The valve springs required with a .600” valve lift mechanical flat tappet cam or a roller mechanical cam have an installed height of at least 1.800”.
Arnie said their springs are installed at 1.850”
In order to have a 1.800” or greater installed spring height and have room for spring locaters and shims, you would need to use the SBC 5.11” long valves.

Billet steel roller cams are available at a reasonable cost. You use the Ford 460 roller lifters. The ribs for the side cover run right between the lifter pairs where the tie bar is making lifter installation a challenge.
You may want to start out with a mechanical flat tappet cam and save some money till you get everything else sorted out.

A 1.94” intake and 1.60” exhaust valve is sufficient. C-tech has had really good response with a 1.72” exhaust valve. The upper end of the power band stays strong without having to use a wide split duration cam profile which helps the lower end of the power band as a result.

They only use cast iron crankshafts and push them beyond 7000 rpm. According to Arnie, the key is to balance each counter weight rather than balancing just the ends of the crankshaft by using the more recent balancing machines that have that ability.

They use the early 240 rods without the oil spit hole in the big end. Polish and shot peen the rod beams then resize with ARP bolts.

You run the engine long enough to need good cooling. Don’t bore the block more than you need to. Hopefully you can get away with a .030” to .040” overbore and not use block fill. Sonic check the cylinder walls first to see what there is for core shift.

There are a lot more details.

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #22 by Josh Jones » Fri May 25, 2018 1:14 am

pmuller9 wrote:Josh
You wanted known race engine builds for reference so rather than just giving you my input I made a few phone calls.

Starting with the cylinder head:

I checked with the two shops that do machine port work on Ford 240/300 heads.
Sissells Automotive has a three axis machine to do the initial cut and then they finish the ports by hand.
C-Tech has a five axis machine but the new program needs some fine tuning.
The problem both shops have is related to core shift. It safer to machine the rough cut and finish the job by hand rather than trying to machine the entire job and run into the water jacket.
I had that happen to one of my heads at C-tech a few years ago.

What we (Bruce, Al and Myself) see is, by the time you machine the 3 angles for the larger valve which includes opening up the throat, the rest of the bowl work and blending can easily be done by hand.
The port walls are thin so the is very little material to remove however there are a few critical areas that provide very good gains with just a little attention. We will be monitoring wall thickness using a sonic tester during port work.

C-tech also builds engines for and sponsors Ford straight six circle track cars and Arnie was willing to share a lot of engine details.
The engines make power to 6800 rpm using solid flat tappet cam profiles with .050” durations in the mid 250 degree range and valve lifts at .600” on 105 degree LSA.
It is a racing gasoline class where roller cams are not allowed and neither is the EFI head so they use the 240 head.
Since the cams have such a tight LSA and a relatively short advertised duration, the intake valve closes fairly early limiting the compression ratio to 11.5.
Any higher compression results in a power loss.
Methanol would be a totally different story.

In your case where you dive into a mud hole and need the low end power to pull out and regain your momentum He felt that a little less duration around the high 240s would offer better torque just above 3000 rpm and still maintain good power at 6000 rpm. That puts your compression limit closer to 11:1
You can finish the combustion chambers to 74cc and use a flat top piston.

Back to the head:
Arnie said that by the time you un-shroud the 240 combustion chamber for the larger valves the volume is close to the 300 carb head so they end up with a small dome on the piston for 11.5 compression ratio.

We are seeing very good results so far with an un-shrouded version of the EQ head you have.
There appears to be a lot more material to work with. Will know more once we get a new probe for the sonic tester ($400)

A mechanical lifter cam with valves lifts .600” and above is best done with a BBC 1.7 ratio roller rocker on a 7/16” stud and 3/8” pushrods. I prefer steel roller rockers over aluminum.
The pushrod slots on the 240 head will need to be opened up. The EFI head would need pushrod guide plates.

The valve springs required with a .600” valve lift mechanical flat tappet cam or a roller mechanical cam have an installed height of at least 1.800”.
Arnie said their springs are installed at 1.850”
In order to have a 1.800” or greater installed spring height and have room for spring locaters and shims, you would need to use the SBC 5.11” long valves.

Billet steel roller cams are available at a reasonable cost. You use the Ford 460 roller lifters. The ribs for the side cover run right between the lifter pairs where the tie bar is making lifter installation a challenge.
You may want to start out with a mechanical flat tappet cam and save some money till you get everything else sorted out.

A 1.94” intake and 1.60” exhaust valve is sufficient. C-tech has had really good response with a 1.72” exhaust valve. The upper end of the power band stays strong without having to use a wide split duration cam profile which helps the lower end of the power band as a result.

They only use cast iron crankshafts and push them beyond 7000 rpm. According to Arnie, the key is to balance each counter weight rather than balancing just the ends of the crankshaft by using the more recent balancing machines that have that ability.

They use the early 240 rods without the oil spit hole in the big end. Polish and shot peen the rod beams then resize with ARP bolts.

You run the engine long enough to need good cooling. Don’t bore the block more than you need to. Hopefully you can get away with a .030” to .040” overbore and not use block fill. Sonic check the cylinder walls first to see what there is for core shift.

There are a lot more details.


Great information!

I spoke with Sissells over phone just the other week! He was the first person I contacted about building this engine. I basically asked if they could build me a head and if they still had any performance recipes laying around. If you talk to him again let him know that I am the same guy that contacted them about the old dirt track engines.
I'll probably just buy a 300 crankshaft and use the 240 engine for the performance build, that way I can keep running the 300.

I do need to find a machine shop capable of performing the work on the rotating assemble. On my 385 series builds I always used Adney Brown out of Detroit but last I heard he was out of the business. The second problem I'm running into, the shops that I know are capable of doing the work aren't real excited to take on the work! I didn't want this to become a multi year build.

If you happen to know of any machine shop willing and capable of doing the work please let me know!
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #23 by pmuller9 » Fri May 25, 2018 11:23 am

I just spoke with Arnie at C-tech and he has a rotating assembly available.
It is a very trick assembly with a lot of attention to the counter weights.
Will let you know more when I hear back from Arnie.

You would need to send him your flywheel for balancing.
He's thinking that a light weight flywheel would be better for tire speed recovery coming out of the mud holes.

I also clarified some confusion over camshaft profiles.

He was talking about the 240 when refering to the cam specs. The 300 will certainly run at a lower rpm power band given the same cam so your cam specs can be the same as what they are using for the 240 and have a lot more torque and make good power to 6000 rpm.
I would be inclined to run closer to .650" lift with the 300. You lose around .022" lift due to tappet clearance with a mechanical lifter cam.

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #24 by Josh Jones » Fri May 25, 2018 1:27 pm

pmuller9 wrote:I just spoke with Arnie at C-tech and he has a rotating assembly available.
It is a very trick assembly with a lot of attention to the counter weights.
Will let you know more when I hear back from Arnie.

You would need to send him your flywheel for balancing.
He's thinking that a light weight flywheel would be better for tire speed recovery coming out of the mud holes.

I also clarified some confusion over camshaft profiles.

He was talking about the 240 when refering to the cam specs. The 300 will certainly run at a lower rpm power band given the same cam so your cam specs can be the same as what they are using for the 240 and have a lot more torque and make good power to 6000 rpm.
I would be inclined to run closer to .650" lift with the 300. You lose around .022" lift due to tappet clearance with a mechanical lifter cam.


I am definitely interested in the rotating assembly! I have been looking at machine shops today. (I’m going to PM you my personal information.) I don’t want to deprive anyone from a engine build,but not everything needs to be recorded for all to see to the end of time! LoL
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #25 by Josh Jones » Fri May 25, 2018 4:55 pm

The Donor 240
7AC0CAC6-44D3-4155-9270-E63BB4474C34.jpeg
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #26 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri May 25, 2018 7:13 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I've built "a few" U-flow engines in the 300 - 360 RWHP range.
To get there you'll heed the following:
Cam w/ .600 - .650 lift in the 280 - 284 duration range (I use roller cams)
early carbed head

What is the .050" duration?

That IS the duration at .050" (Crane)

Others I've used range in the 269/269 (Reed) and 280/280 (Comp) range, depending on the head I'm using and the intended use of the vehicle. Even in bracket racing I tailor the build for the specific car.
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Re: Race engine thread

Post #27 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri May 25, 2018 7:19 pm

pmuller9 wrote:...A mechanical lifter cam with valves lifts .600” and above is best done with a BBC 1.7 ratio roller rocker on a 7/16” stud and 3/8” pushrods. I prefer steel roller rockers over aluminum.
The pushrod slots on the 240 head will need to be opened up. The EFI head would need pushrod guide plates...


What this country needs - in addition to a five-cent cigar and a stainless steel 300 turbo exhaust manifold - is a 5/16-to-3/8 pushrod broach. Its tedious work milling out each slot on each side to get to 3/8" while maintaining perfect alignment with the valve tip.

Is there any enterprising machinist out there who will take that on? (Good vo-tech project)
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Re: Race engine thread

Post #28 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat May 26, 2018 10:11 am

Josh Jones wrote:The Donor 2407AC0CAC6-44D3-4155-9270-E63BB4474C34.jpeg

Aren't these little motors so cute! I love the simplicity of them - like six Brigs and Strattons in a row
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Re: Race engine thread

Post #29 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat May 26, 2018 10:17 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:What this country needs - in addition to a five-cent cigar and a stainless steel 300 turbo exhaust manifold - is a 5/16-to-3/8 pushrod broach. Its tedious work milling out each slot on each side to get to 3/8" while maintaining perfect alignment with the valve tip.

Is there any enterprising machinist out there who will take that on? (Good vo-tech project)

Another alternative might be a piloted 3/8" 4-flute, extra length end mill with a 5/16" x 3/8" long pilot. But even then the slot needs to be a leedle bit wider to accommodate pressed together pushrods, which balloon a few thou where the ends press in. I make my own pushrods that way. Some manufacturers have one-piece and I presume they are spot on .375".
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Re: Race engine thread

Post #30 by Josh Jones » Sat May 26, 2018 11:03 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:What this country needs - in addition to a five-cent cigar and a stainless steel 300 turbo exhaust manifold - is a 5/16-to-3/8 pushrod broach. Its tedious work milling out each slot on each side to get to 3/8" while maintaining perfect alignment with the valve tip.

Is there any enterprising machinist out there who will take that on? (Good vo-tech project)

Another alternative might be a piloted 3/8" 4-flute, extra length end mill with a 5/16" x 3/8" long pilot. But even then the slot needs to be a leedle bit wider to accommodate pressed together pushrods, which balloon a few thou where the ends press in. I make my own pushrods that way. Some manufacturers have one-piece and I presume they are spot on .375".


I have always used one piece, centerless ground Trend Push Rods. I can’t remember the diameter of these in the pictures but these are the two sizes I used for the “New cast” EFI Head.
C761EC0B-E3E5-4409-B1E8-5685F9E07C2E.jpeg
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #31 by Josh Jones » Sat May 26, 2018 11:10 am

Pedestal rocker comparison on the 300 I’m currently running.
F3442040-445E-43B7-9534-8A85EFB65007.jpeg
DC2F48FE-25E7-40D8-B9CB-866E72222881.jpeg
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #32 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat May 26, 2018 2:11 pm

Trend makes nice stuff. Here's another dirty little secret: With a crossflow head, depending on the valve lift and RPM range, 3/8" pushrods are inadequate.

I'll bet those rockers will noticeably wake up that 300. Truth be told the stock ones are not really 1.61 times the lobe lift at the valve, but something less.
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Re: Race engine thread

Post #33 by Josh Jones » Sat May 26, 2018 8:51 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Trend makes nice stuff. Here's another dirty little secret: With a crossflow head, depending on the valve lift and RPM range, 3/8" pushrods are inadequate.

I'll bet those rockers will noticeably wake up that 300. Truth be told the stock ones are not really 1.61 times the lobe lift at the valve, but something less.


Honestly, I’m not very happy with the current 300 combination. Only thing we can figure is the cam timing is off. I didn’t check the cam timing because the timing set wasn’t adjustable. BUT! I think I might be one tooth off.
This combination has power stupid low in the rpm. It runs thru the gears at 1200rpm
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #34 by Josh Jones » Sat May 26, 2018 8:56 pm

Having to get creative to change the starter motor without loosening the headers! The other bank of headers is strapped to the frame rail on this side.
1757B139-5BD5-4E19-9387-AE8C42373D66.jpeg
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #35 by Josh Jones » Sat May 26, 2018 9:04 pm

I keep seeing people mention cross flow heads but I have yet to find or see any for sale?
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #36 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat May 26, 2018 9:21 pm

Josh Jones wrote:Honestly, I’m not very happy with the current 300 combination. Only thing we can figure is the cam timing is off. I didn’t check the cam timing because the timing set wasn’t adjustable. BUT! I think I might be one tooth off.
This combination has power stupid low in the rpm. It runs thru the gears at 1200rpm

Josh, It is pretty easy to see if your cam is a tooth off. Remove the valve cover. Bring the engine up to TDC (as observed on the balancer). As you rotate the crank through TDC watch the rocker arms on cyl #1 and #6. On one of those cylinders the exhaust valve will be closing and the intake valve will be opening. As the closing exhaust rocker arm aligns with the opening intake rocker arm you should be at TDC. If the intake has become depressed further than the exhaust your cam is advanced a tooth. If the exhaust rocker arm is still open more than the intake you are retarded.
Easy
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Re: Race engine thread

Post #37 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat May 26, 2018 9:23 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:...If the exhaust rocker arm is still open more than the intake you are retarded.
Easy

Not you, Josh. Your camshaft is retarded.
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Re: Race engine thread

Post #38 by Josh Jones » Mon May 28, 2018 3:58 pm

Making some carburetor changes. The original intake setup worked great in theory! Just a lot more water than I imagined. I’m ducting the intake into the cab of the truck!
013B7DF5-3300-4788-B1A8-3AB7F7AADA18.jpeg

I’m using 4” Scat hose from the Bonnet to firewall.

Anyone have a good idea of material to use for coolant line from the engine to radiator in the bed and back?
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #39 by Shorty » Mon May 28, 2018 4:27 pm

would aluminum tube work? there would be some good heat dissipation before the hot coolant even gets to the rad.
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #40 by arse_sidewards » Mon May 28, 2018 5:35 pm

Basically anything will work as long as it's installed and supported properly. Many people running rear radiators use exhaust tubing but I've heard of copper and threaded steel pipe being used successfully. Longevity of the system basically comes down to the amount of time and effort you're willing to put in up front.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft EEC-IV
-460 rocker arm Guinea Pig: 3rd world quality "file to fit" machining

-exhaust leak that sounds like a bucket of playing cards being fed into the radiator fan
-66" leafs ('11 Superduty), extended radius arms.

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #41 by Josh Jones » Wed May 30, 2018 12:46 pm

I had a friend mention using PEX tube and fittings. I don't know what type off fittings are available but you would believe they have pex to pipe threads.

Half way finished tearing down the 240 engine. I hope a little water got into the engine because one cylinder has a rust intake valve. Good sign is the exhaust valve and piston is still covered with carbon. Most of the times if it has ran with a cracked head the exhaust valve and chamber would be steam cleaned.
I told everyone I would have the 240 engine torn down but I didn't. My excuse is that I got to sealing-up holes on the front of the truck and ran out of time.
Doesn't look like a good week for getting anything done and doesn't look like I will make the race this weekend. I have a lot of work to do at my job and will probably have to work Saturday anyway.
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #42 by Wesman07 » Wed May 30, 2018 10:44 pm

PEX is a very durable product but I have not seen it in sizes larger than 1” and I do not know the heat rating. They do make all sorts of fitting for it but they must be crimped, can not be glued. The crimp tool is not cheap.

PVC is your best bet.
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Re: Race engine thread

Post #43 by arse_sidewards » Thu May 31, 2018 9:10 am

Wesman07 wrote:PEX is a very durable product but I have not seen it in sizes larger than 1” and I do not know the heat rating. They do make all sorts of fitting for it but they must be crimped, can not be glued. The crimp tool is not cheap.

PVC is your best bet.


The crimp tool is pretty cheap if you buy online.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Home-Manual-PE ... 2611272559

Black ABS/PVC irrigation/sprinkler pipe may be an option.

If it were me I'd use a pipe bender and make the entire section in the frame rail a single piece of pipe and then deal with the connections to/from the radiator and engine.

Properly supporting the pipes throughout their length and keeping things from flexing around is far more important than what material you use.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft EEC-IV
-460 rocker arm Guinea Pig: 3rd world quality "file to fit" machining

-exhaust leak that sounds like a bucket of playing cards being fed into the radiator fan
-66" leafs ('11 Superduty), extended radius arms.

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #44 by Josh Jones » Thu May 31, 2018 1:13 pm

"Pex" is like the word "Channel Lock" it a name brand. Seems like a million different types of "PEX" fittings available today. The OG PEX fitting tool was very exspensive!
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
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Re: Race engine thread

Post #45 by Josh Jones » Thu May 31, 2018 1:45 pm

Anyway, back on topic!

I have found a machine shop to do all of my rotating assembly thanks to Pmuller! All that's left is just doing it!! (story of my life)

My brother and I are going thru a healthy debate on what truck to make the official race truck. So far nothing on the 1984 F150 can't be undone. I just so happen to have a 1994 that looks exactly identical except the body is in mint condition and everything else is worn slap out! The truck has over 400,000 miles, no engine, transmission or transfer case.
His thought is that I should turn that truck (94) into the race truck because the 84 will run and drive down the road. I agree the 84 will run and drive down the road but it sucks as a tow truck! It will not maintain freeway speeds pulling my aluminum trailer with a 2012 Polaris Ranger 800 on it when it hits hills or strong head wind's plus neither truck has AC!!

I could use the 84 as a tow truck but even without a trailer it only get's 120 miles to a tank. I will need the 84 to tow the 94 F150, 2012 Polaris Ranger and tools on a 30' trailer. (That's 12,000lbs if you figure cautiously.) I figure neither truck would do very good for a tow truck, mainly because I want AC when I'm driving over 3hr's in one direction. Better fuel mileage would be a plus as well dual rear wheels... Now, that is his biggest reasoning behind this! I don't own a dually but I do own a 84 F150 that is street legal and I will just have to do without if I want to race.
After 3 months I finally received my racing suspension seat's and trying to decide on roll cage material and design. Once I start the cage we feel any vehicle with a roll cage shouldn't be driven on the street unless you are buckled in and helmet. Due to proximity of steel tubing.
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #46 by arse_sidewards » Thu May 31, 2018 1:48 pm

Use the '94 as the tow rig and you need some 4.10s

The cab definitely has enough space that it can be street-able with a cage but you need to have the cage hug the pilliars really, really well. Your cage needs to be designed from the start to do this and it's going to add a ton of additional time and complexity to fabrication. If you're tall then the bar running near the top of the door may still be uncomfortably close no matter what you do.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft EEC-IV
-460 rocker arm Guinea Pig: 3rd world quality "file to fit" machining

-exhaust leak that sounds like a bucket of playing cards being fed into the radiator fan
-66" leafs ('11 Superduty), extended radius arms.

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #47 by Josh Jones » Thu May 31, 2018 6:54 pm

arse_sidewards wrote:Use the '94 as the tow rig and you need some 4.10s

The cab definitely has enough space that it can be street-able with a cage but you need to have the cage hug the pilliars really, really well. Your cage needs to be designed from the start to do this and it's going to add a ton of additional time and complexity to fabrication. If you're tall then the bar running near the top of the door may still be uncomfortably close no matter what you do.


I’m 6’5” 370lbs (former power lifter) I had a set of PRP Suspension made extra tall and wide for me. (They so comfy!!)
I already have a complete set of 4.10’s I need to find someone to install.
(I just need my own personal mechanic on payroll!)
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #48 by arse_sidewards » Thu May 31, 2018 8:06 pm

Josh Jones wrote:
arse_sidewards wrote:Use the '94 as the tow rig and you need some 4.10s

The cab definitely has enough space that it can be street-able with a cage but you need to have the cage hug the pilliars really, really well. Your cage needs to be designed from the start to do this and it's going to add a ton of additional time and complexity to fabrication. If you're tall then the bar running near the top of the door may still be uncomfortably close no matter what you do.


I’m 6’5” 370lbs (former power lifter) I had a set of PRP Suspension made extra tall and wide for me. (They so comfy!!)
I already have a complete set of 4.10’s I need to find someone to install.
(I just need my own personal mechanic on payroll!)


Do the gear install yourself. 8.8s use outboard shims so they are super easy, no installing and removing bearings. Also the housings have really tight tolerances. Assuming you've got new or used Ford gears to swap in, odds are your old shims will be very close enough that you can just use gear marking compound to dial them in. The D44 front is just as easy because you can do it on the bench. There's no time like the present. The sooner you learn to set up gears the more money it will save in the long run.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft EEC-IV
-460 rocker arm Guinea Pig: 3rd world quality "file to fit" machining

-exhaust leak that sounds like a bucket of playing cards being fed into the radiator fan
-66" leafs ('11 Superduty), extended radius arms.

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #49 by Josh Jones » Thu May 31, 2018 9:51 pm

arse_sidewards wrote:
Josh Jones wrote:
arse_sidewards wrote:Use the '94 as the tow rig and you need some 4.10s

The cab definitely has enough space that it can be street-able with a cage but you need to have the cage hug the pilliars really, really well. Your cage needs to be designed from the start to do this and it's going to add a ton of additional time and complexity to fabrication. If you're tall then the bar running near the top of the door may still be uncomfortably close no matter what you do.


I’m 6’5” 370lbs (former power lifter) I had a set of PRP Suspension made extra tall and wide for me. (They so comfy!!)
I already have a complete set of 4.10’s I need to find someone to install.
(I just need my own personal mechanic on payroll!)


Do the gear install yourself. 8.8s use outboard shims so they are super easy, no installing and removing bearings. Also the housings have really tight tolerances. Assuming you've got new or used Ford gears to swap in, odds are your old shims will be very close enough that you can just use gear marking compound to dial them in. The D44 front is just as easy because you can do it on the bench. There's no time like the present. The sooner you learn to set up gears the more money it will save in the long run.


I bought all my parts from DTS. They managed to help me save a couple of dollars selling me used take out gears. The plan is 4.10 gears with 33.8 OD tires.
1984, Ford, F150, 4x4, Rc, SB, 4.9 L6 Engine, Np435 Transmission, Np208F Transfer Case, "Little Red"
1994, Ford, F150, 4x4, RC, SB, 521cu BBF Engine, C6 transmission, Cyclone 10" Billet Quick Change Gear Box. "Honey Bunny"

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Re: Race engine thread

Post #50 by Josh Jones » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:07 am

Picture of the head from the donor 240 and some pictures of markings and a tag I found under the coil.
IMG_0848.jpg
IMG_0811.jpg
IMG_0862.jpg
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