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Holley 5200 jetting

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Blairsville Ed
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Holley 5200 jetting

Post #1 by Blairsville Ed » Mon Oct 08, 2018 5:09 pm

I just finished installing a Holley 5200 on my 1968 f100, 240
Carb R-6659-1 50 idle jet on both sides, 40 main jet, 32 secondary main jet, 195 air bleed primary, 170 air bleed secondary
It would not idle unless I removed the idle jet. Then it idles perfectly with the idle mix set at 1-3/4 turns out.
Idle speed screw 1-1/4 turn in after contact with linkage.
The carb has been thoroughly cleaned and rebuilt.
I tried a 65 idle jet but it acted the same.
How can it run good without the idle jet?

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chad
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Re: Holley 5200 jetting

Post #2 by chad » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:28 am

I'm surprised U have that carb (sm 6 carb) on a 'big6' motor. It flows less than what's usually needed.
I C no responses 2 ur 2Qs and suggest U go on over to our 'big six' forum for more specific assistance.
It could B that either the carb or motor R misidentified. Obviously those 2 would B the 1st steps.
(Holley 5200 is a 'pinto', progressive, Weber 32/36, or sundry other names).

Post just once to keep dwn the confusion - it doesn't take much 2 get me off track - thats 1 easy way ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
8^0
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

Blairsville Ed
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Re: Holley 5200 jetting

Post #3 by Blairsville Ed » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:09 am

I posted on the big block side. There’s doesn’t seem to be much info on this carb over there.

I found the vacuum leak, it was the base gasket. The gasket was .310 thick but the plastic hole spacers were .315 thick. I cut them down and that solved the leak.
This is a 240 truck motor that I have adapted this carb to, and it is a progressive Pinto carb.
It definitely works better than the Carter YF. Better idle and it has better acceleration when the second barrel opens.

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chad
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Re: Holley 5200 jetting

Post #4 by chad » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:14 am

Kouwell...

There's quite a few of us here who "mix'n match":
I visit here for my motor, nother for 4WD suspension, a 3rd for paint, etc.

Big6 can help U w/flow, intake, etc; here 4 the sm6 carb...

Enjoy !
:thumbup:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

Blairsville Ed
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Re: Holley 5200 jetting

Post #5 by Blairsville Ed » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:17 am

1968 F100. 240, 3 on the tree

I’ve been driving the 240 with the Holley 5200 for about 400 miles now and I am definitely running rich. The idea of setting the idle jet size according to how many turns of the idle mix screw did not work in my case. I kept going up in jet size until the idle mix screw was about 2 turns out for best idle. That was an 80 idle jet.
I decided to try a narrow band O-2 sensor with my digital volt meter. It’s about $20 with a weld in bung. I know that many will say that you must use a wide band but I will respectfully disagree. A narrow band O-2 sensor can give you enough information to direct you in the right direction.
I moved to a 65 idle jet which brought the transition mix (1200 -1400 rpm) to about 12 to 1. Still to rich. Idle mix screw adjustment was now at 4 turns out for best idle, however adjustment for best idle became very sensitive. The idle speed screw was at 1 turn in after contact. If I closed the throttle more the mixture would go rich. I would turn the mixture screw in to about 3 turns out it would idle nicely at 500 rpm. When I tried to speed up the idle it would go lean. I pulled the carb and blew out all passages. I resurfaced the base to get it flat. No change.
Next I tried an experiment with the primary side idle mix air bleed hole. I opened it up about .008. That really made it sensitive. Now I’m at 4 turns out and it idles very good at 500 rpm but no more. If I try to raised the idle it goes very lean and dies. Turning the mix screw out more has no affect.
Next I will be threading the idle mix air bleed hole to 10-32 and get a few brass 10-32 screws. I ordered a micro drill set, and I will be experimenting with different idle air bleed sizes. I also have ordered a 50 and 55 idle jet and a new idle mix screw.
With this being a used carb, there’s no telling what was done to it previously.

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Re: Holley 5200 jetting

Post #6 by xctasy » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:30 pm

Ford did a huge amout of development work with Holley on the 5200 series carbs, and the US one is a lot nicer to work on because you can get 49 years of collective wisdom on how to get it running right.

The only bugbear with the carb is the dirt and crap in any orrifcae, and the needle and seat performance, which is always poor. Replacing the needle and seat, and re-adjusting the flaot level and making sure you've got no air leaks by using an unlit propane or butane tourch is the first thing to do.Normally, ifloat level and needle and seat and gasket leaks force you to sart all over again with the tuning process.


Narrow band O2 sensor is the way to go.
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Holley 5200 jetting

Post #7 by xctasy » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:44 pm

I'm guessing you have the Autolite ignition that was designed to run with the Aoutolite 1101 1-bbl carb for 1968.

Any variance with manifold advance hookup and ignition dwel and set up will cause other idle issues. The art of making a 2-bbl six idle is to make sure the distributor vac advance and base crank advance is set up well and constant.

Its harder with A/C units, power steering, and underhood heat of sedans and Mustangs. Early 240 F 100's are easy.

If heat is a problem, an old Carter Hot Idle compensator, or reducing the fuel pressure with a Mr Gasket or Malplassi fuel presure regulator can help. The Jeep guys just use the stock AMC Jeep fuel return fuel filter for 232's and 258's.

Keep on with it. Lots of fun to Do It Yourself!
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Holley 5200 jetting

Post #8 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:25 am

Blairsville Ed wrote:1968 F100. 240, 3 on the tree


Next I will be threading the idle mix air bleed hole to 10-32 and get a few brass 10-32 screws. I ordered a micro drill set, and I will be experimenting with different idle air bleed sizes.

You don't have to use brass screws. Blank 10-32 air bleeds are available. They come with a pre-machined chamfer spot face making centered bleed holes easy to do. They are for Holleys but I don't see why they won't work in your case. I think I ordered them from Summit or Allstate.
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Blairsville Ed
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Re: Holley 5200 jetting

Post #9 by Blairsville Ed » Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:27 pm

I made an idle air jet with a .032 hole. That brought the idle mix screw back to a reasonable setting of 1-3/4 turns out. 65 primary idle jet.
I noticed that the idle jet doesn’t seem to affect the mixture at the transition as much as I would expect.
I took a closer look into the carb throat at 1300 rpm and I seen some fuel feeding from the main Venturi. I slowed the motor to 1000 rpm and that stopped the flow from the Venturi.
I lower the float about a 1/16” from where it is suppose to be but no change. I guess the main well starts flowing sooner than I thought.
I had the secondary throttle completely closed but now I see that by slightly opening this plate , it can also be used to tune the idle and transition.
The narrow band O-2 sensor readings are helpful but may not be as accurate as I had hope. At 550 rpm idle with the mix screw adjusted to best idle my voltmeter is show .850. If I lean it to .450 volts, which is suppose to equate to 14.7 to 1 mixture, it is a very rough idle. Maybe the log manifold’s rich- lean cylinders is requiring an overall rich mix to idle smooth. At cruise speed I’m showing .800 volts. I just completed a 200 mile round trip on a cold rainy day and got 16 mpg. I’ll try a leaner main jet next.
Question: why would the mixture show slightly rich at cruise and then lean out under load? ( going up a hill)

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Re: Holley 5200 jetting

Post #10 by GPGoverMPG » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:26 am

On my bikes that would have been to small of a main jet. Seams like I remember there being lots of cross over in the circuits. We used large mains adjusted the needles to get it right under load then made it idle as best we could. Lean under load is not the best condition as I'm sure your aware. Maybe a tad more timing to increase engine speed without changing idle setting and increasing airflow through the venturi and pulling fuel from the mains. Best of luck, seems like they were all different and I just had to put in the time.
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Re: Holley 5200 jetting

Post #11 by MechRick » Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:47 pm

My recommendation would be to start with the jets, air bleeds and well tubes used on the Weber kit for 258 Jeeps.

Barring that, some of the characteristics of the Weber (5200) are:

Idle jet affects the transition circuits and idle. Idle is further adjustable by the screw. Trying to adjust idle with the throttle plates cranked open with the idle stop screw will lead you astray. You want to slow the engine down as much as possible before adjusting idle mixture. This is complicated on an engine that is bigger than the carb is designed for. You already know this, but idle jet size is determined by the position of the idle screw.

You can delay the main circuit by going to larger air bleeds. This will require matching larger jets.

Super small idle jets tend to clog more frequently.

The transition circuits are supposed to be a bit rich to prevent hesitation/backfires.

Trying to get a carb at 14.7:1 is a lesson in futility. The factory sets them up to run a bit rich (13.8:1) on purpose. A simple change in weather can lean out a carb and burn pistons.

IF your carb has a bowl vent, plug it off. I chased my tail for days trying to fix a rich condition, caused by this. If the fuel mixture changes with the air cleaner off, this is what causes it.

If you are tuning with a narrow band sensor. shoot for at least .8v at WOT. It's almost impossible to tune WOT with a narrow band.

I like these carbs. The range of adjustment make them a pain to tune, though.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
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Blairsville Ed
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Re: Holley 5200 jetting

Post #12 by Blairsville Ed » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:10 pm

Great info!!

That helps a lot. I changed the primary main jet this morning from a 150 to a 140. I also changed the primary idle from a 65 to a 50 and then drove it at highway speeds for a few miles.
I was surprised that the 0-2 sensor voltage dropped from .8 with the 150 jet to .1 with a 140 jet at 60 mph cruising speed, But it ran good with no pinging. I’m not sure how accurate the 0-2 sensors voltage is.
There was hesitation just above idle. The 50 jet is probably too small. I’ll try a 55 next.
It takes a bit of patience to get this carb set up but the 240 really comes alive when the secondary opens. Much stronger than the Carter YF.
My hope is that the cruising gas mileage will come up as well.

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chad
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32/36 on a big six

Post #13 by chad » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:31 pm

some have suggested drilling holes (forget name of location) so the off camber (wheeling, off road, bajain, etc) will not flood it out.
I assume this is not happening here, eh? (It's in a triangular ares "at top' where overflow frm bowl is recycled back. This allows 'no recycle' I think).
Last edited by chad on Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

Blairsville Ed
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Re: Holley 5200 jetting

Post #14 by Blairsville Ed » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:01 am

This truck stays on the pavement. No off road Stuff.
No flooding issues.
I’m experimenting with the use of a narrow band 0-2 sensor to assist in jet selection. I know the wide band sensors are far superior but the cost is $150+++.
The narrow band sensor is $20 plus the weld in bung to attach it to the exhaust pipe. And you need a voltmeter.

Question: at what lean AFR will the engine start to miss? 17 to 1?

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Re: Holley 5200 jetting

Post #15 by MechRick » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:39 am

I'm running this setup on my Bronco with a Megasquirt:

http://www.wide-band.com/product-p/apsx_d2n_gauge.htm

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/bos ... lsrc=aw.ds

Cheapest wideband setup I know of. Had to warranty it out after vibration caused something to let go inside of the gauge, but the manufacturer sent me a new one in a few days, no questions asked...it's been fine since.

This *greatly* assists tuning carbs.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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