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opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

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sdiesel
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opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #1 by sdiesel » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:28 pm

I chanced upond a mid 40's White, school bus.
it has the original engine ,
a flattie.
this bus, about 32 feet long needs a repower.
what say a 300 with a zf 5 speed?
my guess is bus weighs 12k???
with these butterfly hood, flappy fender designs, there is not a ton of room 4 a v8.
but a hot six.....
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #2 by pmuller9 » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:36 pm

Is there room for a 300 six with a turbocharger?

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #3 by Fordman75 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:43 am

You could always remote mount the turbo.

As long as it had enough gear a 300 would be fine in it. But you'd definitely want some mods for more power.
Ted

54 Ford F100/F150 4x4
300, NP435 4spd, NP205 transfercase

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #4 by arse_sidewards » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:04 am

ZF5+300 should be fine. You won't be pulling any hills at 70 though. I'd pick the fastest speed you want to go (be realistic, you're not gonna drive at 65 on the highway when the rest of the traffic is doing 85) and gear it to do 3k-3500 at that speed.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #5 by GPGoverMPG » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:19 am

I think it's a great idea. I would consider an automatic trans like the AOD from a 93 Ford IDI diesel and a gear vendors overdrive. Rowing the trans will get old pretty quick.
71 F350 4x4 Super Duty 7.3 IDI
72 F250 4x4 4speed 300 I6
72 F100 2x 428 Tri Power
2014 SHO

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #6 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:25 am

Well I hate to swim against the current here but a six ton vehicle (with the potential for another 6K in cargo / passengers) would be better off with a built 460.

I have one in a '46 pickup. Should fit.

Image

OTOH, Ford had a test fleet of turbo 300s and they purportedly drove like a 460.
Last edited by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER on Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #7 by Max_Effort » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:27 am

How much HP and torque did the flat head have?
I'd think the 300 is a big improvement.

I'd vote for the ZF five speed too. Less power loss and you'll want the engine braking effect.

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #8 by arse_sidewards » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:34 am

GPGoverMPG wrote:I think it's a great idea. I would consider an automatic trans like the AOD from a 93 Ford IDI diesel and a gear vendors overdrive. Rowing the trans will get old pretty quick.


They never put the AOD behind the IDI for reasons that should be obvious to anyone who knows the reliability reputation of the stock AOD :rolflmao:

Did you mean the E4OD? That would work but the power lost to spinning it is comparable to a C6.

I think the 5spd is the better option. An M5OD would also live a long and productive life in that application since the gears will be deep and OP probably won't be trying to shift it like a race car.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #9 by MechRick » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:21 pm

The spacing between 4th and 5th on the ZF5 is a bit wide.

When I'm towing my TT at a combined weight of ~12,000 lbs, I keep wishing for an extra gear between 4th and 5th or higher numerical rear gears.

Higher gears would work fine, but limit top/cruise speed (probably not an issue with a bus). A ZF6 would be a good option too.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #10 by Dr Jay » Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:15 pm

Would love a pic!
Blessings,
Dr Jay

1978 F100 Shortie, Lowered front and rear, 300 .030 over, 300 carb head, Clifford, Holley 390
268 Comp Cam, Cloyes, Fuel Inj. exhaust manifolds, MSD 6A, TOD, 9"

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #11 by Dr Jay » Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:28 pm

Lower Alabama!
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Blessings,
Dr Jay

1978 F100 Shortie, Lowered front and rear, 300 .030 over, 300 carb head, Clifford, Holley 390
268 Comp Cam, Cloyes, Fuel Inj. exhaust manifolds, MSD 6A, TOD, 9"

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #12 by GPGoverMPG » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:36 am

That is a neat project. Have fun with it.
71 F350 4x4 Super Duty 7.3 IDI
72 F250 4x4 4speed 300 I6
72 F100 2x 428 Tri Power
2014 SHO

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #13 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:45 am

Neat!
Is the suspension lowered? or just staged to look like it is?
I'm working on a project - a '60 GMC panel truck / EMT fire dept vehicle - that we installed a Crown Victoria front suspension under. If your front end needs work you may consider such a swap as opposed to rebuilding that older I-beam.

Some advantages of the CV are

IFS
Rack n pinion steering
power steering
one piece modular drop-in installation
aluminum forgings (some years even used aluminum A-arms)
5 x 4.5 Ford bolt circle matches the 8.8 rear end installed so common wheel size all around
available cheap in wrecking yards
provisions for bolt on engine mounts.
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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #14 by Max_Effort » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:58 am

That' can't be the OPs project, his is 1940's

Heresy, but the "best" swap would be a 6BT Cummins...

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #15 by Lazy JW » Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:51 pm

Rather than re-type the story, I copied and pasted the following from another thread.


:lol: When I was in high school we had a bus driver named Jim S. He was an old Navy man, about 6'5" and weighed around 275; he had everyone's respect without being a jerk, and was definitely the most fun bus driver we ever had.

He drove a late 70's thirty passenger (yes, I did indeed ride the short bus) 4WD Ford bus on a 1 1/2 ton chassis with a 300 six and four-speed granny tranny. Jim drove that bus like he was Mario Andretti on speed; this was a very rural route in the hills of northern Idaho with tight corners and big bumps. I remember one old cattle guard that had enough of a drop that when we hit other side would sometimes get us airborne for a few feet. Why he never broke anything is indeed a mystery to me; of course all of us kids thought it was great sport :D

That was the vehicle that started my love affair with the Ford 300 six. I never saw Jim again after I left home for the Marines, but I always smile when I think of him drifting around those gravel corners with his 8-track blaring some rock 'n roll music and us boys in the back whooping and hollering. Those were indeed the good ol' days.
:nod:
Joe
"The White OX" 1974 F-350 300-6, Stock single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18A, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean, but much increase is by the strength of the ox" (Proverbs 14:4)
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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #16 by Lazy JW » Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:20 pm

arse_sidewards wrote:ZF5+300 should be fine. You won't be pulling any hills at 70 though. I'd pick the fastest speed you want to go (be realistic, you're not gonna drive at 65 on the highway when the rest of the traffic is doing 85) and gear it to do 3k-3500 at that speed.


Having pulled a LOT of heavy loads with my White Ox (typically 20,000 lbs CGVW) I have learned something about 300 powered heavy vehicles.
To wit:

They ain't gonna be very fast. :mrgreen:

Lower your expectations and you will be fine.

If a ZF-5-Speed and enough money to re-gear my White Ox were to suddenly fall into my lap, I would gear it so that 4th gear delivered about 3000 RPM at about 60 mph and use 5th gear for running empty at whatever rpm that works out to be. This would require 5.13 gears with my stock size tires.

Don't even think about using 5th gear when loaded.
"The White OX" 1974 F-350 300-6, Stock single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18A, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean, but much increase is by the strength of the ox" (Proverbs 14:4)
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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #17 by sdiesel » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:21 pm

I do have 1 photo taken from the street.
the bus is not mine.
The title and owner of the bus are lost to antiquity.
I have to buy the property; would be easier to get the bus
this could happen easily enough, as I was looking at the property when I found the bus.

as for power,
I feel a turbo six zf 5 speed and a 2 speed rear axle are the ticket.
a big ford might fit under hood, and the 460 is the very best choice for rv power.
a 6 bt would be super intelligent and spiffy but not in keeping with the, um sense of style.
further this is a motorhime.
further , I'm di allusioned with diesels, their mess,noise, expense and complexity.
today's motorhome:
the market today emphasis seems to be on the motor, not the home...
thus we have 600 hp flying motorhomes often in the hands,and under the gentle direction of ,some aging goon who possess zero idea or skill in piloting such a monstrosity.
My father, in one of his rare lucid moments admits he is no match for such a contrivance, and refuses my goading to buy one for winter trips south.
This in spite of his insistence at piloting his race car in 1/8 mile bursts of speed that would terrify me.

travels in such a modestly powered vehicle as this would be, revels in the sheer joy of feeling mother earth pass beneath the wheels,the rumble and spit of the aged beast as she motors yet again.
driving once again becomes a skill. the hurried and anxious energies spent trying to reach a destination, impeded by a stretch of ground between present location and tee time in some far distant mega resort, are replaced with strategic gear selection.
mechanical observation, nuance, and direct specific control of this machine


here is a motorhome that is done right, that is an inspiration to we all.
I am grateful to call the builder an acquintance, even friend.
Whatever he is, he is genius in his work.

federalmotorhome.com

I hope that hyprrlinked.
I'm writing on my phone without the aid of glasses
its possible I am completely unintelligible, for I cannot see what I'm writing.


now , for a ton of fun....how about the zf 5 speed with a transfer case for low range, and a brownie transmission of 3 or 4 gears, with a 2 speed rear axle.
Last edited by sdiesel on Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #18 by pmuller9 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:14 am

What do you have left for 300 blocks, crank and heads?

Do you still have the HD exhaust manifold?

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #19 by sdiesel » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:25 am

hi Paul,
I got all and everything u sawwhen you were last by the garage, almost 2 years ago.
nothin changed, except I'm older.

I m negotiating for 2 more engines both with HD manifolds, both in 1 ton trucks.
interesting and odd event. to see that in a pickup
headers, Manis and only one forged crank left.
it's in that new engine I've been afraid to run due to rod bolts. I did start her recently, runs good.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #20 by sdiesel » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:51 pm

20181113_163209.jpeg


THE BUS!
never learned to upload files.
all ur gonna get fer now.

BUT
opinions please, on a 435 transmission with a range splitter 2 speed
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a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #21 by arse_sidewards » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:08 pm

435 + aftermarket OD should be fine but with all that space in the chassis you could fit pretty much any over/under aux trans you want. Since I doubt you're looking to have this drive able next week I'd keep an eye out on all the local CL's for an aux trans before spending the coin on a more readily available overdrive option.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #22 by sdiesel » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:02 pm

a mitchell box i
or an old Spicer box from the 50
I had a mini 3 speed Spicer but the fellow stori g it for me sold it
a 2 speed rear axle might be just as good ???
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #23 by Max_Effort » Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:21 pm

That bus is nice... or would be cool, except it has a stack for a wood stove, so it’s hot!

So an NP435 and a two speed rear end? That was a popular and proven set up for many years.

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #24 by Fordman75 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:00 pm

That would be a cool bus to build.

My dream set up is the Advance Adapters Ranger gear splitter with the NP435. It mounts between the bellhousing and transmission and gives you another shifter coming thru the floor. It not only gives you OD but also allows you to break up that big spread in the NP435's gear ratios. The down side is it's not cheap ( around $1700 new ) . And finding a used one for sale is next to impossible. The other thing is it moves the NP435's shifter back a little over 7" ( either 7 1/4" or 7 1/2" can't remember which ) .

A slightly cheaper option is the NP435 with a Spicer/Brownie aux. 3spd mounted behind it. They usually run $700-$1000 for a good used one. The down side is it's heavier, needs a mount/crossmember built. And adds another drive shaft into the deal. Then there is the shifter and shift linkages to deal with too. The upside is you would also gain another underdrive gear. I'm accomplishing something similar by running a married NP205 transfercase behind the NP435 that I'm swapping into my E350. The NP435 has the grany low which is great for getting moving with a load. But that doesn't help in reverse. The NP205 gives me the low range. Which will help a ton for backing up a loaded trailer on a incline. It doesn't give me OD, but it's less then a third of the price of the Spicer/Brownie box.
Last edited by Fordman75 on Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ted

54 Ford F100/F150 4x4
300, NP435 4spd, NP205 transfercase

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #25 by arse_sidewards » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:17 pm

Fordman75 wrote:That would be a cool bus to build.

My dream set up is the Advance Adapters Ranger gear splitter with the NP435. It mounts between the bellhousing and transmission and gives you another shifter coming thru the floor. It not only gives you OD but also allows you to break up that big spread in the NP435's gear ratios. The down side is it's not cheap ( around $1700 new ) . And finding a used one for sale is next to impossible. The other thing is it moves the NP435's shifter back a little over 7" ( either 7 1/4" or 7 1/2" can't remember which ) .

A slightly cheaper option is the NP435 with a Spicer/Brownie aux. 3spd mounted behind it. The down side is it's heavier, needs a mount/crossmember built. And adds another drive shaft into the deal. Then there is the shifter and shift linkages to deal with too. The up side is you would also gain another underdrive gear. I'm accomplishing something similar by running a married NP205 transfercase behind the NP435 that I'm swapping into my E350. The NP435 has the grany low which is great for getting moving with a load. But that doesn't help in reverse. The NP205 gives me the low range. Which will help a ton for backing up a loaded trailer on a incline. It doesn't give me OD, but it's less then a third of the price of the Spicer/Brownie box.


Not to derail the thread but if you just wand a super low low in a 2wd vehicle then any old chain drive transfer case with the front output half of the case sawed off and sealed up works well and weighs practically nothing.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #26 by Fordman75 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:22 pm

arse_sidewards wrote:
Fordman75 wrote:Not to derail the thread but if you just wand a super low low in a 2wd vehicle then any old chain drive transfer case with the front output half of the case sawed off and sealed up works well and weighs practically nothing.


Too much hassle. You can modify the NP205's shift rails. Which lets you shift them independently. So you can have the hi and low range in 2wd only. Plus they are cheap and as bullet proof as the NP435 is.
Ted

54 Ford F100/F150 4x4
300, NP435 4spd, NP205 transfercase

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #27 by Max_Effort » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:46 pm

There are a lot of used two-speed Eaton rear ends out there. It would seem the best way to get it done.

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #28 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:10 pm

After seeing the photo of the bus - YUP, 460 and a C6.

Those headlights are Guide side-mount units. I used a pair on the first '23 T I built, from a White OTH tractor.

And SCRATCH my Crown Vic front end swap idea. It won't be beefy enough for that app.
Last edited by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER on Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #29 by pmuller9 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:38 pm

Hi David
Just some thoughts.
If you do a turbocharged 300 you will be working it hard so it will require good components.
No offshore turbos, hard anodized pistons, 4340 steel rods...ect.
I would also recommend EFI for better control.
If you are rowing gears the turbo will also need to respond quickly.

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #30 by sdiesel » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:44 pm

does the hood look to be wide enough for a 460?
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #31 by Fordman75 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:58 pm

I know a guy swapping a 460 into a 38 Ford car. If it will fit in that, you should have no issue with a truck/bus that size.
Ted

54 Ford F100/F150 4x4
300, NP435 4spd, NP205 transfercase

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #32 by Lazy JW » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:15 am

sdiesel wrote:20181113_163209.jpeg

THE BUS!
never learned to upload files.
all ur gonna get fer now.

BUT
opinions please, on a 435 transmission with a range splitter 2 speed



I love it! :D :nod: :thumbup:

Definitely do the 435 with whatever 2 speed you decide upon. I am rather fond of the Eaton planetary 2-speeds myself.
"The White OX" 1974 F-350 300-6, Stock single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18A, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean, but much increase is by the strength of the ox" (Proverbs 14:4)
Image

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #33 by J.R. » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:30 am

Being the contrarian here... you might even look at an old IH Red Diamond 501 inline six. @ 501 cubic inches, with a split exhaust manifold from the factory, that and a couple of low pressure (5-7 psi) turbos would likely provide more low-RPM torque than most street-cruising turbocharged 300-inchers. :roll: That should utilize most 2-speed rear axles nicely.

J.R.
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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #34 by sdiesel » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:33 am

sexy idea, especially since the pullers are deep into the engines already, just follow their lead.....

twin turbo ed 501....in a bus, wow.

my favorite nostalgia ride would be a Buda diesel.....
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

sdiesel
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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #35 by sdiesel » Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:44 pm

I have it on good authority that the big v8 will likely not fit in this bus.
John Driscoll who built that exquisite federal says his 455 pontiac fit only after a lot of finesse with grinder and steering.
so maybe 300 six is the best engine for this rig.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #36 by pmuller9 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:34 pm

So back to a turbocharged 300?

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Re: opinions on a b.b. 300 in school bus

Post #37 by sdiesel » Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:44 am

yup a 300 turbo.
I think would be best
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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