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Please help me build the ultimate 300 for an F600

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notmeofficer
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Please help me build the ultimate 300 for an F600

Post #1 by notmeofficer » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:05 pm

Hello all...
I have read hundreds of posts on here. I appreciate the knowledge base and all the old heads preventing the rest of us from making stupid errors.
Still..I would like some help on building the ultimate 300 six for my F600 4x4. I have owned this truck for fifteen years now.. The truck is in full resto and has been a several year build. In that time I have obtained a number of 300s.. and now I have several new OX blocks..a couple of new American stock cast cranks.. at least one forged crank... and several 70s blocks in stock to 40 over bores. I also possess several F600s that came with 300s from the factory as parts trucks ( I have other trucks slated for 300s.. I even have one in my off road forklift)

I will be running an NP 435 four speed .. rockwell 2 speed transfer case... rockwell 106 2 speed rear.. gears matched to FDS 75 front in direct. The tires will be skinny tubeless dually 22.5. on rims that I have modified. The gears are 6.17s and are equipped with new detroit lockers front and rear.. and milemarker front locking hubs. The truck will carry an aluminum custom built chassis mount camper. It is fairly short wheelbase and will be fairly light as medium duty trucks go..but there is a lot of weight with all the 4 x 4 iron.. It has a supercab conversion. It is not a go fast truck... 55 will be fine.. it will see travel everywhere..Im retired now and am putting in time on this build
I am not afraid to put some money into the motor build.. most of the parts will be new. My low budget build will be in the 30k range mostly because I already own most of the stuff and cant remember what I paid/traded/or bartered for over the years. In total 300 I-6 parts including several new blocks etc I probably only have a couple of thousand dollars

My initial idea is

Close to stock or stock bore
very mild cam
mild carb
headers or hd exhaust

Im interested in your opinions on:
potentially sharps rockers
forged pistons.. although I cant seem to get my head around the correct option.. and yes I understand custom ones are spendy
rods... well..I have looked at all the custom ones...and Im still scratching my head.. I have bags of used stockers.. and again yes I understand the custom ones are spendy...

Heads.. I have a number of 70s vintage ones with 3/8 studs... and one later one.. and of course the Chinese new ones are out there as well

Intake... I want to stay carb'd for ease of service if Im out of the US.. perhaps an offy..maybe even new bone stock

Ignition- HEI conversion

Cooling is all handled.. Ford put massive radiators in the f600s... and all I will be doing is upgrading to the v-8 radiator from the six.. which gives another row...

This isnt your standard hot rod build... this is a severe duty engine that will get worked hard at times.. idle off road.. and idle providing power and potentially hot water at times

I am a weldor fabricator and have a well equipped shop.. my build partner is a machinist retired CHP helicopter pilot.. we both like to build things carefully. I have a good machine shop to help on the motor build

And finally.. no I dont want a cummins.. and I realize I could build one for what Im potentially putting into a period correct I6


I am open to any and all suggestions..
Thank you for your time

notmeofficer


NO FORGED CRANKS FOR SALE-sorry
Last edited by notmeofficer on Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

pmuller9
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #2 by pmuller9 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:34 pm

Waiting for reply to post #11
Last edited by pmuller9 on Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sdiesel
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #3 by sdiesel » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:17 pm

YEEEAAAAAHHH!!!!
finally someone who thinks (god forbid) like i do.
If you have the goodies: a turbo, or twin turbo, is the cats meow.

use an oil cooer from a 460.

Sick six remote mounted his turbo on a six and it worked out real well. and you will have even more room under the cab than he did.
Propane possible?
i cant see how you will ever reach 5 mpg on gas. propane is half the price. lotsa room for tanks salvaged from a wrecked out motorhome.
Better: Dual mixers on a custom intake. with an intercooler. you could use 300 mixers they are smaller than the 425's which are essentially a holley 4 barrel.


HD everything, control temps, and your can't be any worse off than the original factory units. You should aim for 300 HP 400 or more torque.

i ran these farm trucks, and one 10 yard dump truck , i should say walked one, for they are slow, but never failed.
yours is going to be slow as helle, but what the helle. your retired right. i am totally in tune with you; imagine driving from L.A. to Quartzite over hwy 10 at a leisurely pace, you should be about 12,000 pounds overall. And 4 days getting there, hehe.
i vote for a 3 speed brownie, just to while away the time on long , slow pulls. and think of the flats with double over !!!! helle, you might even hit 70!!!


What about axles?
Will you consider the axles from a 550? the rockwells?
105's or 150's ? i think that is the series. Disc brakes and easy swap in.

oh man, i wanna help this would be so much fun.

I like the clark 5 speeds better than the 435 but whatever.
would be nice to get a spicer 7 in there if your bellhousing will allow. did the big fords ever come with SAE bellhousings??

modify the oil pan so you can have 12 quarts of oil.

the radiator
be sure you get the shop to dimple and louver the core for you. the Pacific Core is currently the best core out there. and Hart RAdiator in Longview Washington is one of the best (and only) remaining radiator shops doing it the hard way. bout 600 dollars for a 4 row brass copper. new tanks.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

sdiesel
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #4 by sdiesel » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:28 pm

im unfamiliar with rockwell axles. are you using an unmarried transfer case?
if so please consider a ZF 5 or explain why that wont work?
should be lighter or same weight and an extra gear.

what suspension will you use? an airride in the rear? Coils in front?

will you have a mounted air compressor? aV2 from chrsyler works well if you mount it independently with a belt.
Serpentine belt on engine?
will the house a/c cool the cab? instead of the factory AC compressor on the engine??

a hydraulic pump fits pretty good where the smog pump used to be. then you can build a double pulley from that over to the V2 pump that you can mount on the frame rail with the Ac clutch on a switch.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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bubba22349
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #5 by bubba22349 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:36 pm

The F600 4 X 4 sounds like a fun build up! This is the parts combo for the Medium Duty 300 I built, for my 1965 F350, it was a real workhorse and never let me down.

Short block build was basic .030 over rebuilder cast Pistons (I used a NAPA sourced engine kit) est. compression was around 8 to 8.5, Molly rings, .010 / .010 cast crank with Cleveite 77 bearings, rebuilt stock connecting Rods, Melling (standard pressure) oil pump, stock 65 F350 6 quart oil pan, stock bearing clearance's, Melling (Torque) Cam, Aluminum Cam gear / steel crank gear, FelPro gasket set. The head was off a 300 propane fork lift engine (stock valve sizes Serdi radius valve seats with 3 angle grind to valves and back cut). I found this head to use as a replacement when I was having trouble with the two previous early head castings (1965 to 69) that kept wiping out a couple exhaust guides when California took all the lead out of the fuels. I used the stock exhaust manifold into a 2 1/4 inch pipe and a single turbo muffler dumping right in front of the passenger side tire. Stock intake with a new Holley 1940 carb, the ignistion was a stock used DuraSpark II system and stock wiring harness from a 1977 up Ford 300. The engine was great for hauling or towing, ran great on 86 - 87 crap gas and it's pulling torque started from just off idle. Some other things I wanted to try out on it was a big truck (heavy duty) exhaust manifold, an Eldenbrock 1V intake, with a 1968 Autolite 1V and Carter YFA carb's, (was going more towards economy MPG) and also a gear venders overdrive unit for the trans. If I was building it today it would also do pocket porting and do some mild porting to clean up intake and exhaust ports. This engine built for a quite reasonable amount and was very economical to operate develering 11 to 15 MPG depending on the load being pulled or carried.

About the truck.

The truck was a 1965 Regular Cab F-350 short wheel base Dually chassis with 9ft x 7ft stake bed with a dump, extra 18 Gal saddle type fuel tank, weight was just a little over 5800 Lbs empty, had the excellent NP435 trans and either 5:14 or 4:88 rear gears. The truck originally had a 240 six so the gearing was a bit too low for the extra torque from the 300 swap. To try and compensate some I put the tallest 16 inch radials on the stock wheels that I could find easy, think they were 255's. I never had a tach in it but the truck stopped pulling at 62 MPH (am sure the Speed O was off some too because of tire size being a little taller but even still it really needed an overdrive or taller gearing for Freeway driving to cruse at 65 to 75 MPH.

To convert the above 300 build into a more heavy duty use 300 you can add the set of forged pistions with custom rods or as you have lots of good stock rods just polish the beams and add a set of ARP bolts. Since you have the steel crank use that too, then have the compleate rotating assembly balanced. You could also have Shindler cams custom grind you a cam to fit your trucks torque needs. The F600 should have come with the bigger Heavy duty exhaust manifold so your good there also with a 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 inch single exhaust and a free flowing muffler. The Harlon Sharp rockers are easy depending on which heads you have to use. On the forged pistions Auto / Race Tec have about the best deal at around $600.00 a set. I like to keep the over bore on these medium / heavy duty truck type engines using a stock Ford block to no more than .040 over and really prefer to keep them at .030 or less so if you have one of those new Ox blocks that's a fresh bore still at standard that's better still. Good luck on your 300 build. :nod: :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #6 by Wesman07 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:31 am

Cool build!

Do you have the special factory low rpm tachometer in it? It took me years to find a 4,500 rpm tach out of an F series.

Also, do you know what tire diameter you will be running??
In-lines we trust

86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #7 by Max_Effort » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:35 am

My comments are going to reflect the approach I'd take for a medium/heavy duty application , not specifically the 300-6.
,
I'd upgrade to forged pistons and higher quality plasma rings ( better than the rebuilder quality)
Consider The Speed-pro L2446 forged pistons with your early connecting rods.

Resize the rods, ARP rods bolts.

Be reasonable with compression ratio for the gas you will use. Compression will help power, but detonation will kill it quick.

Premium tri-metal rod and main bearings (vs rebuilder AL bearings)

High quality Valves, Severe duty exhaust valves. Quality head rebuild, new guides (or bronze liners ) install hard exhaust seats.

Improve airflow in and out of the engine. That would include a better intake and carb and free flowing exhaust. Headers can be a PITA. For the 300, the EFI split manifold seems the logical choice.

I'd select the camshaft specifically for the RPM range it will operate in.
If you can do all your pulling and shifting between peak HP and Peak torque RPM's,
and cruising RPM near peak torque RPM it's going to work out well.

arse_sidewards
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #8 by arse_sidewards » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:10 am

I strongly, strongly, strongly suggest you gear it to top out around 4k at 80. When you are on flat ground and everyone is doing 80+ going 55 will get very old very fast. You will want to be able to go at least 70ish in those circumstances.

sdiesel wrote:use an oil cooler from a 460.

I like the clark 5 speeds better than the 435 but whatever.
would be nice to get a spicer 7 in there if your bellhousing will allow. did the big fords ever come with SAE bellhousings??

modify the oil pan so you can have 12 quarts of oil.

Will you consider the axles from a 550? the rockwells?



Oil cooler from a Explorer 5.0 also takes full radiator flow.

x2 on the medium duty 5spd

There are SAE adapters but SBF pattern engines in medium duty trucks with them were rare. In the era when most of the SBF pattern engines went into those trucks they were the economy option and likewise most of them came with a 4spd behind them.

Extra oil capacity won't hurt but IMO it's not strictly necessary if you have a cooler. Just change your oil on time.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

sandboxer
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #9 by sandboxer » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:18 am

Get a Jr. Head from Gramps.

arse_sidewards
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #10 by arse_sidewards » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:28 am

sandboxer wrote:Get a Jr. Head from Gramps.


Wait for the LS head. Build an intake. Drop a Holley Sniper on and floor it. :thumbup:
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

pmuller9
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #11 by pmuller9 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:22 pm

What are the two gear ratios in your rockwell 106 2 speed rear.
I know you said 6.17 for one ratio.
What is the other ratio?

notmeofficer
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #12 by notmeofficer » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:00 pm

Thank you for some well thought out suggestions.. of course I have more questions..

Im looking for a 55-60 mph cruising truck.. it might go faster but I dont need or want to.. I could care less at people who want to drive 80.. cant do that in a medium duty anyway..wouldnt want to.. and a 3oo six cant... The ones I have driven will reasonably do 55-60 all day

A 3100 RPM engine seems about right at cruise in direct..maybe 2600-2700 in overdrive

The axles are rockwells The suspension is FORD Ford built their 4 x 4 f500/600s on a special order ship through basis
F106 2 speed rear.. FDS-75 front.. they are entirely reman'd already by me.. with new lockers.. bearings etc.. just alone in them is about 3500 in parts
I had tried to convert them to disc brake and was semi-successful.. I used rockwell B600 bus disc brake rotors and f550 calipers.. the rears were easy peasey but the fronts proved unworkable even after trying to make custom caliper stands (and have them be safe and overkill.. if you look at some of the stuff made on PIRATE for Rocs.. its scary)... original B600 caliper stands are long obsolete,, they only made them for a couple of years an those buses have all been long since scrapped.
The aftermarket guys out there like Overson use modified one ton stuff..and driveshaft option stuff not sufficient for a medium duty road truck.. fine for a monster truck
Another reason I went back to stock is travel plans... in south America f600s are all over.. and parts can be had.. custom stuff less so. If I ever shipped it overseas they are there too.

I had considered bagging it but the leafs are so durable and simple there really isnt the need.. and again less custom parts in important places means easier fixes when custom stuff isnt close.. there's a lot of f600s running around Mexico for parts like broken leafs etc.

The frame was stripped bare and every rivet removed and put back together with grade 8 bolts...
I did a fit up last year with a 70s dentside supercab...built all the cab mounts and a custom front cross member to match the core support. but the cab was a rust bucket.. I just obtained a late 80s rust free supercab so that will be used for the swap.. The use of the supercab is for several reasons.. more cab room...I can even run air ride seats...make wife happy.. storage/security behind the seat..and the long cab to have the camper be able to have a full size bed above the cab without extending way over the windshield.

The rockwell transfer case is divorced..

I have many 300 blocks to choose from for the build
The OX blocks.. which are new
Early blocks.. which are pretty used up and came from medium duties from 30-40 over
70s blocks.. which came from light duties from 20-30 over
late 80s blocks- 4.00 .. zero over

Ive been sourcing NOS stuff like pushrods etc when I see them and if they arent silly in prices

Carbs, Fuel, fuel management

I just drove a bone stock pre-70 F500 240 ci Air Force surplus truck back through the mountains here in NORCAL.. had my foot in it the whole way.. I averaged 10 mpg but I never got over 55... and the motor was tired. The battery died so I had it running with jumper cables going to my motorcycle sitting on the flatbed.. adventures in fun.. but it made it..leaking oil and all.

Propane
I can easily do propane and then do a propane motor build.. but using propane has disadvantages in the middle of nowhere.. gas or diesel.. with gas being the easiest to get (I have traveled around the third world on medical missions)
I wouldnt be afraid of fuel injection other than if it breaks in the middle of southern Mexico or further south Im stuck... a carb setup is pretty easy to source...and easy to work on...
There is something to be said for a new factory HD setup...

Head Cam
Trying to squeeze efficient power is important.. which means small gains of a horse here or there for some expensive parts..I realize that
Sound advice on best practice valve job.. as I understand it larger valves are not necessary when you do the cam.. and the two work against each other.. so its an either or.. especially for a mild build.



Cooling
The cooling is addressed.. the radiator is new.. its for a V8.. more copper than fort knox.. they are no longer available..it makes many diesel radiators look puny
I have driven several of these F500/F600s in desert conditions with the smaller six cylinder radiator and the huge four blade industrial fan.. they never budge on the temp gauge.. with the larger radiator Im into overkill.. but you cant have enough cooling

As to oil cooling.. I have a number of air to air oil coolers I have sourced over time... perhaps one is a good idea..thanks I hadnt put much thought into that
Making a 12 qt oil pan, I could do that,,I have plenty of pans..Ill think more about that and look at front pumpkin clearance

Oh and thank you for the HART radiator suggestion.. put them in my favorites.. they dont have a website so it's old fashioned and a call.

Air conditioning
I have a late mode 90's light duty ac setup for the 300..and the supercab is already setup for it... the camper will have separate ac to generator run or shorepower (and or solar.. which will only run fans but not ac)


PTO or accessory drives
I have a PTO for the NP-435 that I sourced but it would mean some engineering to get the output past the transfer case as it gets pretty busy with the huge front driveshaft.. it could run a hydraulic pump.. but with the advent of electric on board air and very efficient 16-20k pound electric winches probably not necessary.. but I am open to more investigation.. If I get so stuck that I need to winch more than a hundred feet I shouldnt have been in there in the first place,,mature capability outweighs zeal.




Transmission
The Clark is an option..and I have one.. but really with a two speed rear.. two speed transfer case and the 435 so basic.. why..more gears arent always good.. sometimes they are just more gears. FYI Ranger over/underdrives do NOT work with HD NP-435s.. the front shaft is way larger on medium duties.. but I did have a good conversation with Advance Adapters folks.


I really just need more help on the engine build
My machine shop is all in but wants direction from me.. and I want to make the right tactical and financial decisions one time..

So some questions for the experts here please...

Who has been successful at obtaining forged pistons from an aftermarket source.. and if so who.. and how much? I see several companies...
Thank you for the race tec source.. I will call them
Thank you for the speedpro L2446 351W pistons..I have to read more about the issues using these and how hard it is to get them to work.. time for some machinist one on one

Forged rods... anyone?


Blocks
Anyone have experience with the OX blocks?.. I am tempted to use it because it's new.. but its also offshore... and I know all about the HECTINA project after speaking with them at length... and I couldnt buy one of their wet powerplants with any certainty of its longevity..sounded too good to be true.. might work in a stationary power plant in Africa.. but not in truck use where loads and temps would vary.. anyway.. I bought a couple of bare blocks because they were so cheap at 300.00 ea I couldnt resist. ( and if I last long enough there are trucks waiting for 300 builds... My F350 dent Holmes 440 tow truck.. and my dent F250 2wd lo-boy)

I will post pics over time that can help people gauge my capabilities and what the project entails.. I am budgeting 36 months for the build.. Ive been collecting parts for years.

Thank you all

notmeofficer

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #13 by notmeofficer » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:08 pm

PM
There is no tag on the rear end..it had been lost before me, 6.17 direct was determined by speaking with Ford motor Company on the original build sheet which I did obtain but it shows no model number.... they couldnt tell me what the OD number was and Rockwell no longer maintains data on this as it has been obsolete for years.. they claim no two speed shows up in their books for 300 six trucks.. this truck is proof they are wrong.. this is an OEM bone stock rear and has never been changed out. It was a transition year.. who knows what got put in...remember it started as a 2wd truck

But (most) parts are still available by individual part numbers..go figure

Thank you

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #14 by arse_sidewards » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:23 pm

Not bagging it was the right way to go. Since this will be a camper it will always have the same load and you can pick and choose leaves to work well with that. Bags really shine when you are running totally different weights (e.g. loaded/empty) and need the suspension to be appropriate for both.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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bubba22349
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #15 by bubba22349 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:38 pm

The stock connecting rods are forged and are quite strong there are two different sizes of pins. The 1965 to 69 have a .912 pin size the 1970 up are more plentiful and have a .975 pin size, you can I'd the rods year by their Casting / Design numbers. Adding the ARP rod bolts polishing the beams, shot peening, adds a little bit more strength along with a standard rebuild / resizing. One major weak link of these 300's at least until mid 1995 was Fords brittle cast pistons they would often crack a skirt, I completely lost one engine to this. Aftermarket cast pistons (such as the rebuilder kit types) fix this issue, also Fords hyperectic pistons made available in mid 1995, a bonus with these is the updated metric rings for a little less friction in the Rotating Assembly, or the Forged pistion's too. Going the custom forged Auto / Race Tec pistion's you get to choose the ring pack at no extra cost and you could then use a set of the longer 240 Rods for less cylinder wall loading too. The other weak link in lighter duty 300's was the fiber cam gear, the use of the aluminum cam / steel crank gear takes care of that. Those Rockwell' two speeds are great axles drove several trucks that had them, it should be a real asset for the use you have planed for your 4 X 4 truck. I would keep the compression ratio at the 8.0 to a Max of 8.5 for your trucks use. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #16 by Max_Effort » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:23 pm

Larger valves and larger cam don’t “work against each other”

What is true is the better a head flows/works, the less cam you need to make the same power.
A poor flowing head needs more cam, to make the power.

Your medium duty build and gearing will benefit from moving the powerband up from stock. A better flowing head and a larger cam are going to work together to achieve that. More power in the RPM range you will be operating in.

If it were me, I’d rework the the head with bowl porting, perform a good multi angle valve job. I’m thinking the Jones cam I had made is in the ballpark.

2954C184-9D72-4E75-AA6B-698F0F9C8FAA.jpeg
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #17 by pmuller9 » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:24 pm

I looked at two other Rockwell two speed differentials, a 4.10/5.72 and 4.56/6.36 and in both cases the overdrive factor is .717
If the same is true for your differential that would make it a 4.42/6.17
I would jack the rear off the ground and turn the tire 1 rev and count the driveshaft turns just to verify.

At 4.42 ratio and a 245/75-22.5 tire the engine rpm would be 2400 rpm at 60 mph.
At 6.17 ratio the engine rpm would be 3350 rpm at 60 mph.

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #18 by sdiesel » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:32 pm

if you use an OX block i would be tempted to bake it first to see how it settles.
then machine it
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #19 by sdiesel » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:35 am

also inclined to predict the spring pack on the F600 is harsh.
may i suggest the chevy 63" springs at 2.5 inch width for the rears?
Airbags if needed. sway bar from a motorhome.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #20 by arse_sidewards » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:48 am

sdiesel wrote:also inclined to predict the spring pack on the F600 is harsh.
may i suggest the chevy 63" springs at 2.5 inch width for the rears?
Airbags if needed. sway bar from a motorhome.


Superduty spring packs are 66" long, 3" wide and the bushing/fastener size and main leaf thickness are far more appropriate for an F600. I wouldn't want to trust the main spring on the Chevy 63s for anything greater than a 1-ton. It's just not thick enough. You're one good clutch dump away from bending the spring at they eye (especially with the kind of stiff pack you need to hold up a bigger truck)

Regardless of what OEM application you choose the best ride without being too soft is almost certainly going to involve several iterations of mixing and matching leaves.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #21 by sdiesel » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:12 pm

good info,
but , the f 600 is probably set up for 2.5" springs which can be a headache for clearances when putting 3 inchers in. especially around the inside dual
its why i added the air lift bags.
his house likely wont weigh 5000 pounds dripping wet
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #22 by notmeofficer » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:31 pm

Bake off on the block is a good suggestion.. I will talk to the machine shop.. the OX blocks are here..on the rail yard siding.. I cant get them until Monday
As to the F550 axle suggestion.. no.Im not considering that.. I already have very expensive rockwells all built.. and there is something about them that screams old school durability. I am pretty sure I sourced the last front locker in the US.. battling all the mud pullers for it

Thank you for the suggestions about suspension. Please remember this is a 2.5 ton truck. I think if I were to alter the suspension.. it would have been air bags...
The six cylinder f500/f600s already had lighter spring packs because of lower gvw capabilities. The THREE INCH wide spring packs are actually beautifully made with bronze bushings that are greasable... And yes they dont flex much because they were designed for ultimate durability.. but.. what I didnt state in my earlier posts (because this is a build about the 300 and less so the truck) is that the aluminum chassis mount camper will use the cantilever mounting setup that is famous in off road camper builds.. its a tried and true system used from Dakar to Argentina for medium duty rigs. Wigglesworth clearly describes it in his book "Build your own Overland Camper" (Haynes Books). It is the go to bible for off road chassis mount camper builds (As is Exploration.net forums)

Ok back to the engine

Based upon some info gleaned for all of you my decisions are trending towards these suggestions;

Build the best possible regular pump gas motor I can for this application

BLOCK
Use the OX block stock 4.00 for the build... bake it off.. see what it looks like.. my machinist would want to go this route anyway Im sure..
PISTONS
Worth the effort to go forged.. stock bore. 4.00 Pistons TBD... I see the 351s have a stock 4.00 bore available.. I wonder whether I can source forged rods from same builder... more investigation. Again.. my OEM rods are 40 years old.. rebuildable yes.. perfect.. no... I assume any aftermarket forged piston will also have the ability to get new wrist pins.. some of mine are definitely blue from heat
CRANK While I do have a forged crank... its 50 plus years old.. and I have NEW cast American cranks.. Im going to talk with my crank guy and machinist on this and be guided by them after inspection
HEAD Chevy valves with best process valve job with Sharps rockers. Springs and seals TBD with cam builder kit
CAM I could use some guidance here as to best combo for lift and duration for my needs.. Steel timing gears (which are in all my HD 300s) Thank you for the suggestion from Jones ..I looked at their site.
HEAD Clean up the head.. mild port and bowl work.. nothing crazy.. maybe ten hours worth. I read somewhere that people are drilling and pinning the stud bosses... and I wonder whether that weakens them and is unnecessary in a lower horsepower build. Blue head gasket for best sealing.. bronze guides
OIL PUMP Stock, new,Melling .. flat tappet additive to oil. I will speak with my machinist as to viability of an oil cooler
CARB
TBD,, Offy with a two barrel? Bone stock one barrel ?
FUEL PUMP stock mechanical.. it may be backed up by electric tank pumps. Im going to run smaller sized aluminum saddle tanks (because I need the room out back for other things
IGNITION After market hei ( I have ford hei and old school points setups.. which could be pertronix'd)
EXHAUST
HD new stock to 3" inch stainless tube.. low flow stainless muffler- brand TBD
GASKETS permadri/silicone
PULLEYS I have both HD and LD pulleys from various trucks. I read the serpentine conversion thread on here (but it wasnt complete). I would like to go serpentine if possible. I will be running a saginaw pump... a 200 amp alternator (and there is room for two but Im not sure I want the horsepower loss)..and factory (lt duty) ac compressor I have both new LD and HD water pumps (and the new HD's are hard to source anymore so I bought out a suppliers stock of them) I could use either.. Does anyone have a suggestion how I should proceed. I looked at aftermarket set ups like March.. doesnt seem like they adapt (smallblock) and whoa spendy beyond reason... I saw the setup over at foureyed pride forum.. pretty nice
SHEETMETAL I have multiple sets of used and new.. from FORD to Ox...After I saw a member take the time to resto his OEM ford one I got bit.. so thats probably where Ill go.. Engine will be FORD industrial grey with silver valve cover with FORD blue..hard not to copy perfection. The one I saw on here showed me someone really cared.

Cost.. well since most of the parts are already in my inventory I dont really have a number on them..old money already spent.. at least thats how I look at it
I think Ill have 3k in this motor after the machine shop work... pistons, rods and all engine parts ARP etc thats probably a realistic number. A large cost will be the pistons and rods

Anyone see me going wrong anywhere?

Thank you one and all

notmeofficer

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #23 by Lazy JW » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:52 pm

notmeofficer wrote:
... NP 435 four speed ... tires will be skinny tubeless dually 22.5... The gears are 6.17s ...


You're gonna be spending a lot of time in low range :D

When Ford built their original HD 300's they used pistons that delivered a lower compression ratio than the standard 300's. I strongly suggest doing the same.

I built the 300 in my White Ox as a low-budget attempt to emulate a factory HD 300. I did this by using the hypereutectic pistons for an EFI 300; these have a deeper dish, then I used the stock 300 carbureted head. I then used a shorter-than stock cam for strong low-end torque.

I believe this would work well for your application, except you will need a cam similar to the one suggested above, plus a two-barrel carb.

You will really need to spin that little 300 around 3000+ rpm at 55 mph in low range (assuming that your 6.17 ratio is low range). High range will be useful for splitting gears, but you won't be using it much in top gear.

For use in Mexico, etc. I would definitely use a breaker point distributor, then use it to trigger an HEI type ignition. Keep a good VW coil for emergency use with the breaker points.

I really like your project, keep up the good work :nod: :thumbup: :D
Joe
"The White OX" 1974 F-350 300-6, Stock single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18A, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean, but much increase is by the strength of the ox" (Proverbs 14:4)
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #24 by bubba22349 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:53 pm

Sounds like a decent build plan, though for your planned use I wonder about using the aftermarket HEI unless your also planning on carrying some spare parts on those long distance trips. Hard to beat the dependably of the Stock or moded DuraSpark II.

Usually the new pistons will also come with new fitted pins, the Auto / Race Tec's do. On custom con rods "pmuller9" has some good posts about this.

On the Cam calling Shindler Cams (Jerry, a SoCal company that's near you), so you can discuss your build plans he will advise you. This is a good idea as the Cost on a custom grind is about the same as a off the shelf grind.

If you go with the head mods than the Offy C with a 2V Autolite / Motorcraft or Holley carb would work good.

Going to the surpenine belt system (1987 to 1997) is a great and easy bolt on upgrade using all l stock Ford parts. This saves a little frictional loss as well as using less horse power to turn it all. But with that system you will also need the right water pump (one for the EFI engines), the earlier water pumps used on the carb'ed engines have the wrong type impellor design.

With the Harlen Sharp rockers you might need to modify the stock valve cover using two covers to make it little taller or adding a spacer

Also "pmuller9" has info on new heads he's been involved with that are now for sale. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
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I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #25 by pmuller9 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:50 pm

Max-Effort has given you a very good overview.
If your OD ratio is 4.42 then the highway rpm will not be so crazy.
If the engine will be doing a lot of hard work above 3000 rpm then what Max-Effort recommended is correct. The engine power band needs to be moved way upward from the stock sub 2000 rpm torque peak.

The head flow is the limiting factor.
The 300 six is equivalent to a 400 V8 in cylinder size and the ports are way undersized.
Even with a fully ported big valve ported head and performance cam the 300 still produces excellent low end torque.
In the following build the head was fully CNC ported with 2.02” intake and 1.60 exhaust valves.
650 cfm 4 barrel carb, headers and a large 232/232 .050” duration Jones cam.
In second gear (T18 4 sp tranny) it will break the tires loose at 1200 rpm and pull hard to 5000+ rpm and still get 18+ mpg at 70 mph 2400 rpm highway.
viewtopic.php?p=613859#p613859

The 6.385” BBC small journal connecting rod can be used.
There are two available at reasonable cost.
Molnar CH6385NTB8-A and the Compstar CSB6385DS3B4AH

They are BBC small journal (2.100") rods 6.385" long.
Big end width is the same as the 300 rod at .992"
They would require custom forged pistons

If you are looking for pistons for extreme heat and abuse I would not use the 4032 alloy forged piston as in AutoTec.
I would look at the almost no silicon content 2618 alloy forged pistons that are much more malleable.
We have tried most of the piston coatings for the piston skirt and there has not been a coating that stayed on after a few hours of extreme running.
We have had the most success with anodizing since it is a base metal conversion rather than a coating.

Bruce Walker the originator of the zero gap ring, offers a 2618 alloy piston that is heat treated to T6.
The pistons are offered with an optional anodized skirt and ceramic heat barrier on the top.
A flat top piston is $105 each and a reverse dome or dish is $110 each
These pistons DO NOT come with wrist pins. There is a $18 and $30 pin (each) available.
The hard anodized friction process for the skirts and a ceramic heat barrier for the top are both combined at $40 for each piston.
http://bwepistonrings.com/

The next step up is the fully anodized pistons that we use from Diamond.
The anodized process includes the piston ring grooves for extended ring and groove life including protection from ring flutter.

I believe the cast OXX crank is cast steel not iron.
Please check that out.

While the 232/232 .050” duration cam I used worked great, it didn’t idle smoothy till 900 rpm.
If you need a cam the idles smoothy at 650 rpm and give you lots of torque from an idle then the Jones cam that Max-Effort suggested is a good choice.

The fully ported JR head that just became available would be a good match.
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=79561

I prefer to use a 7/16” screw in rocker stud and steel (Not aluminum) rocker arms.

Absolutely no log exhaust manifold HD or otherwise.
The inter-cylinder interference and the lack of exhaust scavenging is very counter productive in producing torque.
The 1 ½” primary long tube headers produce the most torque but need to be coated to get longevity and need to be removed to get to the starter.
The 1987 and later EFI exhaust cast iron exhaust manifolds are the next choice .

If you follow this recipe and make the power you need, an Offenhauser “C” manifold with a 500 to 600 cfm 4 barrel carb will work great.

Hands Down, every time, the MSD 6AL ignition works best at producing the best low end power with the 300 six. Just be sure to buy it directly from MSD so you don’t get stuck with a counterfeit unit.
They have a section on their website describing how to tell the difference.
The nice feature is the MSD box can be used with any other ignition including points so if it fails you can simply disconnect it and fall back to the primary system.

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #26 by Lazy JW » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:28 pm

pmuller9 wrote:...If your OD ratio is 4.42 then the highway rpm will not be so crazy...


With those tall tires on a heavy vehicle having poor aerodynamics the engine will essentially be lugging all the time in top gear. My White Ox knows about pulling heavy loads ;-)
"The White OX" 1974 F-350 300-6, Stock single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18A, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean, but much increase is by the strength of the ox" (Proverbs 14:4)
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #27 by notmeofficer » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:38 pm

Wow.. really extensive info..thank you all

22.5 skinny tires are about 35-36 inches tall depending upon branl.. but yes the 300 will be working most of the time.. but in driving these in the real world and not caring about going anywhere quickly.. thats ok

I am interested in the head.. how was it developed.. was it cast domestically... what are the real world performance enhancements over stock.

Some teaser pics
The fds 75 rock front end is massive
Image

This is a locking hub
Image

The transfer case makes a 205 look like a toy
Image

Originally the rockwells came from my fire engine which only had 19k miles on it... the frame was destroyed by the pump overflow shooting at it for years.. but the rest of the truck was pristine.. so I parted it for everything and found another shorter wheelbase frame for my build. The fire engine had a smog heavy 370 and it was a dog.. as bad or worse than a 300.. it couldnt do more than 45 mph.. then again it was carrying 1000 gallons of water and a very heavy midship pump and a couple of thousand pounds of fire equipment... but it could shoot multiple 1 1/2 lines at once. I sold the body to a water truck company
Image

I just freshened up this medium duty in an F600 air force surplus truck.. it has only 14k original flight line miles. The frame is now all blasted and painted. The truck will have a custom aluminum flatbed and will be used as a run around ranch truck. Everything is bone stock and base model. Its still fun to drive.
Image

I had fun with my striping brush on the air cleaner
Image

The 300 is tiny in the engine bay with all that room.. the front axle is getting swapped for the FDS75. The cab is just in mock up and not located...

Image

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #28 by pmuller9 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:50 pm

Wow again. Massive frame and running parts.
I'm thinking there may be room for two 300s :D

The new head is based on this casting which is off shore.
https://www.techshopmag.com/enginequest ... der-heads/

It certainly weighs more than the stock heads.
Just ask Bruce "WorldChampGramp" who has been lugging them around from from place to place.

I know I dropped a bunch of info at one time but left the details of each catagory for later.

Thanks for the pictures and will await impatiently for the rest.

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #29 by Max_Effort » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:02 pm

notmeofficer wrote:
Ok back to the engine

Based upon some info gleaned for all of you my decisions are trending towards these suggestions;

Build the best possible regular pump gas motor I can for this application

BLOCK
Use the OX block stock 4.00 for the build... bake it off.. see what it looks like.. my machinist would want to go this route anyway Im sure..
PISTONS
Worth the effort to go forged.. stock bore. 4.00 Pistons TBD... I see the 351s have a stock 4.00 bore available.. I wonder whether I can source forged rods from same builder... more investigation. Again.. my OEM rods are 40 years old.. rebuildable yes.. perfect.. no... I assume any aftermarket forged piston will also have the ability to get new wrist pins.. some of mine are definitely blue from heat
CRANK While I do have a forged crank... its 50 plus years old.. and I have NEW cast American cranks.. Im going to talk with my crank guy and machinist on this and be guided by them after inspection
HEAD Chevy valves with best process valve job with Sharps rockers. Springs and seals TBD with cam builder kit
CAM I could use some guidance here as to best combo for lift and duration for my needs.. Steel timing gears (which are in all my HD 300s) Thank you for the suggestion from Jones ..I looked at their site.
HEAD Clean up the head.. mild port and bowl work.. nothing crazy.. maybe ten hours worth. I read somewhere that people are drilling and pinning the stud bosses... and I wonder whether that weakens them and is unnecessary in a lower horsepower build. Blue head gasket for best sealing.. bronze guides
OIL PUMP Stock, new,Melling .. flat tappet additive to oil. I will speak with my machinist as to viability of an oil cooler
CARB
TBD,, Offy with a two barrel? Bone stock one barrel ?
FUEL PUMP stock mechanical.. it may be backed up by electric tank pumps. Im going to run smaller sized aluminum saddle tanks (because I need the room out back for other things
IGNITION After market hei ( I have ford hei and old school points setups.. which could be pertronix'd)
EXHAUST
HD new stock to 3" inch stainless tube.. low flow stainless muffler- brand TBD
GASKETS permadri/silicone
PULLEYS I have both HD and LD pulleys from various trucks. I read the serpentine conversion thread on here (but it wasnt complete). I would like to go serpentine if possible. I will be running a saginaw pump... a 200 amp alternator (and there is room for two but Im not sure I want the horsepower loss)..and factory (lt duty) ac compressor I have both new LD and HD water pumps (and the new HD's are hard to source anymore so I bought out a suppliers stock of them) I could use either.. Does anyone have a suggestion how I should proceed. I looked at aftermarket set ups like March.. doesnt seem like they adapt (smallblock) and whoa spendy beyond reason... I saw the setup over at foureyed pride forum.. pretty nice
SHEETMETAL I have multiple sets of used and new.. from FORD to Ox...After I saw a member take the time to resto his OEM ford one I got bit.. so thats probably where Ill go.. Engine will be FORD industrial grey with silver valve cover with FORD blue..hard not to copy perfection. The one I saw on here showed me someone really cared.

Cost.. well since most of the parts are already in my inventory I dont really have a number on them..old money already spent.. at least thats how I look at it
I think Ill have 3k in this motor after the machine shop work... pistons, rods and all engine parts ARP etc thats probably a realistic number. A large cost will be the pistons and rods

Anyone see me going wrong anywhere?

Thank you one and all

notmeofficer


I think you will have to bore that Oxx block .030” to get it round and straight. And check all the other machining, main line, cam line, lifter bores etc.. then deck it... this is typical of aftermarket blocks.

It doesn’t matter if the forged crank is 50 years old, if it passes a wet mag test (no cracks) it’s straight, cleans up with a re-grind, it’s the one to use.

For the pulleys, can you use the serpentine belt set up from an EFI engine?

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #30 by Max_Effort » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:20 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Wow again. Massive frame and running parts.
I'm thinking there may be room for two 300s :D

The new head is based on this casting which is off shore.
https://www.techshopmag.com/enginequest ... der-heads/

It certainly weighs more than the stock heads.
Just ask Bruce "WorldChampGramp" who has been lugging them around from from place to place.

I know I dropped a bunch of info at one time but left the details of each catagory for later.

Thanks for the pictures and will await impatiently for the rest.


Pmuller, I had an opportunity to ask the EQ rep about the head. It’s cast with their tooling and supervision. Designed to be a heavier duty, improved casting.

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #31 by pmuller9 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:40 pm

Max_Effort wrote:Pmuller, I had an opportunity to ask the EQ rep about the head. It’s cast with their tooling and supervision. Designed to be a heavier duty, improved casting.

Max-Effort
Thanks for that piece of info on the EQ head.
For some reason I did not get back to their booth at the PRI show to ask that question. I usually do follow up questions on Saturday.

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #32 by sdiesel » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:39 pm

im gonna piss on the sauna rocks here and likely reap the wind, but ive been on this forum long enough that, though ignorant, i am well meaning and earnest in the desire to see the 300 live.
i also desire to see this lovely project completed.

But,

The 300 engine will not function in that rig. period. considering the parameters you have held us to.
Even a dt 466 or 8.3 cummins is going to work to turn that mass of metal
that is my humble opinion. and its right.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #33 by pmuller9 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:55 pm

notmeofficer wrote:I am interested in the head.. how was it developed.. was it cast domestically... what are the real world performance enhancements over stock.

If I understand the highlighted question correctly,

As previuosly mentioned, the stock 300 head has undersized ports compared to the cylinder volume.
Because of that it produces lots of low rpm torque which peaks below 2000 rpm (The pre 1987 engines) but then falls off as rpm increases producing peak HP just after 3000 rpm.

When you increase the flow by installing larger valves and modifying the ports and bowl area, the port volume is still not oversized for the cylinder volume and there isn't any low rpm torque sacrifice.
Instead the torque curve no longer drops off after 2000 rpm and becomes extremely flat and wide creating a very wide power band.

A wide range of camshaft profiles now become more effective.
The torque curve is also elevated mostly above 300 ft lbs.

This is with the understanding that the accompanying intake and exhaust system is upgraded to compliment the additional head flow.

This is what has been reflected by the real world examples.

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #34 by notmeofficer » Sat Feb 02, 2019 1:57 am

I'm going to snag a f I. Motor next week for the serpentine setup...I have a line on a good running 88 f150. for 50.00.
I am always on the prowl for f500 six trucks and just found one...he wants 600 for it but I've been waiting him out and I think it will be around 250. Always searching for the forged crank..although out of the past several it's been robbed by rebuilders.. perhaps this one might be unmolested by the looks of it

Thank you for the comments about the truck being underpowered for application...you may be right...but in driving the several two wheel drives I have..they are sufficient. In this build the body will be aluminum...I can't imagine even loaded it will exceed 2k pounds..so even with all the extra 4 x4 gear the truck will be close to a loaded flatbed 2wd...which I drive all the time around the ranch and as material getters...they seem fine to me...second gear..heavy into throttle to get moving..fourth gear heavy into throttle on hills..otherwise..they seem to move ok..the 330..361..391..and 470 v8s I've driven get up to speed faster but don't seem to pull loads any better..just make more noise and burn more fuel

There is also something to be said for nostalgia...300s are just plain cool engines..the simplicity..durability..and plentiful generally cheap parts ..abet custom stuff make them great candidates for travel...I see them all over in Mexico and south America.

Who should I connect with to speak to about the head
Gramps?
Thank you

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #35 by Max_Effort » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:05 am

notmeofficer wrote: v8s I've driven get up to speed faster but don't seem to pull loads any better..just make more noise and burn more fuel

There is also something to be said for nostalgia...300s are just plain cool engines..the simplicity..durability..and plentiful generally cheap parts ..abet custom stuff make them great candidates for travel...I see them all over in Mexico and south America.

Who should I connect with to speak to about the head
Gramps?
Thank you


I can make the 460 pull hills a lot better, and use a lot of fuel :lol:

But that’s not the point, you want a strong 300 and more power to you... that’s why I’m here too.

The head is here at this link...
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=79561

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #36 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:37 am

Rather than using the stock 4.00 bore I would use a block honing plate to get the bores truly round and use the smallest overbore pistons to accomplish that - probably .010. Then you can use modern file-fit ring pack.

The Ford component design engineer who designed the forged crank told me the forged unit is 40% stronger than the cast one. He also told me it was not needed and was discontinued even on the later HD engines because it was not cost effective. Of course racers still love them.

Use the EFI dual cast exhaust manifolds.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #37 by Max_Effort » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:49 pm

I was interested in finding out more about the aftermarket block.

I checked with other machinist about Oxx block. From what I learned, the machining was rough and they needed a complete going over rework/repair.

Maybe they’ve gotten better?

That would explain why the engines HEC / Oxx. produced were 4.030” bore.

I’m sure it’s a useable block, but as listing states “Some additional machining may be required”

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-300-4-9L- ... 2371053628


8646DC24-4B2E-4F12-B2CE-617B36BE986D.jpeg


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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #38 by Rusty_Old_F250 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:17 pm

Hello Cam, I haven't been active online much lately, good to see you're still around! I've been working 5-6 days a week and living at work (literally) for the past few months, haven't had much time for forum stuff. I barely have enough time to keep my trucks on the road

Anyways... This build is right up my alley! I actually just completed a somewhat similar engine, it's in my 1973 f250. My style was more of a no frills, reliable mule than anything though.

First off, I used the Engine Quest cylinder head on my build, unfortunately, it gets an overwhelming :thumbdown: from me. I ordered the bare casting from their ebay store, it looked good but the machine shop had to rework every dimension and mill every surface on the $%&#@ thing. And to top it off, the casting was NOT thicker as advertised. Had the machine shop been more timely in informing me about this, I wouldn't have used it at all. But, anyways, it's on there now and it's working, so I can't complain about it now. If i were to do it over I'd use a Ford EFI casting.

Other than that, I used an E7 block (out of an 86 van, with a feedback carburetor, I guess for ran out of earlier blocks?)
Silv-o-lite pistons for an HD 300 PN 3118H
Stainless valves, intake and exhaust, plus matching hard seats on both exhaust and intake. Stayed stock on the sizing.
stock rods
stock cast crank
can't remember the specs on the cam but she goes like a scared cat from idle-4000 then noses over hard
stock duraspark ignition
stock intake, with lower heat riser cut off
HD exhaust manifold with ceramic coated blockoff plate on top the heat riser.
1bbl Carter YF

Altogether very happy, gas mileage is good, not the most powerful thing on the planet but I'm happy. Eventually I might build a tripower setup, but that's still a ways off.

Now for the ultimate engine, you should really consider forced induction and propane... :hmmm:

Sam

notmeofficer
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #39 by notmeofficer » Sat Feb 02, 2019 7:44 pm

Max_Effort wrote:I was interested in finding out more about the aftermarket block.

I checked with other machinist about Oxx block. From what I learned, the machining was rough and they needed a complete going over rework/repair.

Maybe they’ve gotten better?

That would explain why the engines HEC / Oxx. produced were 4.030” bore.

I’m sure it’s a useable block, but as listing states “Some additional machining may be required”

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-300-4-9L- ... 2371053628


8646DC24-4B2E-4F12-B2CE-617B36BE986D.jpeg

9D60B206-BB47-4AEB-8D79-514F56C73908.jpeg


Well.. Ill know next week when they arrive and I can get one to my machinist.. I see they are going up in price... the industrial guy bought all the rods and most of the blocks.. so I guess the inventory is coming to an end.. somewhere over in china someone has the mold
I doubt they got better,,, we will have to see...

Im prepared to take the suggestions on here with the OX blocks

FTF.. thank you Sir.. noted

Sam.. Im on here because if you really want to know about inline sixes this is the place.. I pulled the plug in November and fully retired after the CARR and Delta fires... and momma says build this thing stop talking about it...
Im going slow on the engine taking in everyone's suggestions so hopefully I dont make mistakes.. everyone here has been extremely cordial and accommodating with my numerous noob questions.

Sorry about your experience with the EQ head.. but Im glad you had it and not me.. your review makes me feel shakey about them now

This past week I got the bug and did a tear down of a pile of 300 engines. One was a C600 4 x 4 Ford PGE line truck with a huge post hole digger on it.. the 300 had a reman'd steel plate on it from Ford. I cannot imagine how hard this thing got worked.. it has a PTO operated driveshaft going to the drill rig. The forged crank is unknown until I let my crank guy determine it.. there are no Ford numbers on it and I bet it was robbed during the reman.. the only saving grace is that it is a Ford reman and maybe just maybe they did right and put one back in.. doubtful.
Several of the wrist pins were blue from heat.. not scored.. but blue
I wondering if these are even still usable.. there is no ridge but oh boy there's bluing to the hardchrome?

Notmeofficer

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #40 by sdiesel » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:22 pm

The forged crank is unknown until I let my crank guy determine it.. ""

what do this mean??
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #41 by bubba22349 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 9:45 pm

notmeofficer wrote:
This past week I got the bug and did a tear down of a pile of 300 engines. One was a C600 4 x 4 Ford PGE line truck with a huge post hole digger on it.. the 300 had a reman'd steel plate on it from Ford. I cannot imagine how hard this thing got worked.. it has a PTO operated driveshaft going to the drill rig. The forged crank is unknown until I let my crank guy determine it.. there are no Ford numbers on it and I bet it was robbed during the reman.. the only saving grace is that it is a Ford reman and maybe just maybe they did right and put one back in.. doubtful.
Several of the wrist pins were blue from heat.. not scored.. but blue
I wondering if these are even still usable.. there is no ridge but oh boy there's bluing to the hardchrome?

Notmeofficer


When the rebuilders hang the new Pistons on the rebuilt Rods, the pin / small end of the rod is put in a Rod heater to expand them then the pins are pushed into place, :hmmm: they usually get a couple squirts of oil to quickly cool them down some, maybe those weren't. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #42 by pmuller9 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:55 pm

Rusty_Old_F250 wrote:First off, I used the Engine Quest cylinder head on my build, unfortunately, it gets an overwhelming :thumbdown: from me. I ordered the bare casting from their ebay store, it looked good but the machine shop had to rework every dimension and mill every surface on the $%&#@ thing. And to top it off, the casting was NOT thicker as advertised. Had the machine shop been more timely in informing me about this, I wouldn't have used it at all. But, anyways, it's on there now and it's working, so I can't complain about it now. If i were to do it over I'd use a Ford EFI casting.

That is what a bare casting is all about. None of the machining is complete leaving extra material everywhere which gives us plenty of room to finish the head to our dimensional specs.
We have to finish cutting the step for an interference fit for the exhaust valve seat inserts.
This also gives the option of using different seat inserts since dry fuel like propane uses a different seat insert material than wet fuel.

Then cut both intake and exhaust valve seats, throats and pocket to be dimensionally correct for the oversize valves.
Afterward the remainder of the ports get finished.
Then lots of time is spent reshaping the combustion chambers and making sure the volume is the same for all six.
The head surface has a cleanup cut taken off of it.
Then all ports are checked on the flow bench to insure consistency.
This is what you get for $1194 which includes the head casting.

When HRD was doing our racing V8 heads they would get bare casting from Dart which barely had holes large enough to call combustion chambers and ports.
$7500 later we had a beautiful set of ported heads with titanium valves. No springs, retainers or any other parts.
That's the way the bare casting process works.

We chose this route because over half of the junk yard EFI heads are cracked and I wouldn't trust the remaining heads.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #43 by sandboxer » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:57 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
Rusty_Old_F250 wrote:First off, I used the Engine Quest cylinder head on my build, unfortunately, it gets an overwhelming :thumbdown: from me. I ordered the bare casting from their ebay store, it looked good but the machine shop had to rework every dimension and mill every surface on the $%&#@ thing. And to top it off, the casting was NOT thicker as advertised. Had the machine shop been more timely in informing me about this, I wouldn't have used it at all. But, anyways, it's on there now and it's working, so I can't complain about it now. If i were to do it over I'd use a Ford EFI casting.

That is what a bare casting is all about. None of the machining is complete leaving extra material everywhere which gives us plenty of room to finish the head to our dimensional specs.
We have to finish cutting the step for an interference fit for the exhaust valve seat inserts.
Then cut both intake and exhaust valve seats, throats and pocket to be dimensionally correct for the oversize valves.
Afterward the remainder of the ports get finished.
Then lots of time is spent reshaping the combustion chambers and making sure the volume is the same for all six.
The head surface has a cleanup cut taken off of it.
Then all ports are checked on the flow bench to insure consistency.
This is what you get for $1194 which includes the head casting.

When HRD was doing our racing V8 heads they would get bare casting from Dart which barely had holes large enough to call combustion chambers and ports.
$7500 later we had a beautiful set of ported heads with titanium valves. No springs, retainers or any other parts.
That's the way the process works.

We chose this route because over half of the junk yard EFI heads are cracked and I wouldn't trust the remaining heads.

Heck of a deal.

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #44 by Lunatic Fringe » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:50 pm

This is what my motor looked like when I pulled it out of a combine. Been a while since Iv'e dealt with an ISO bell housing. the block has an adapter plate, then the bell housing bolted to it. The parts from the block back weighed over 200 lbs.
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #45 by sdiesel » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:12 pm

i got one of those too,

it wont take a transmission , mine won't at least


whoever mentioned forced induction and propane earlier is music to my ears
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #46 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:52 pm

sdiesel,
What keeps it from taking a transmission?
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #47 by Max_Effort » Sun Feb 03, 2019 7:09 pm

bubba22349 wrote:
notmeofficer wrote:
This past week I got the bug and did a tear down of a pile of 300 engines. One was a C600 4 x 4 Ford PGE line truck with a huge post hole digger on it.. the 300 had a reman'd steel plate on it from Ford. I cannot imagine how hard this thing got worked.. it has a PTO operated driveshaft going to the drill rig. The forged crank is unknown until I let my crank guy determine it.. there are no Ford numbers on it and I bet it was robbed during the reman.. the only saving grace is that it is a Ford reman and maybe just maybe they did right and put one back in.. doubtful.
Several of the wrist pins were blue from heat.. not scored.. but blue
I wondering if these are even still usable.. there is no ridge but oh boy there's bluing to the hardchrome?

Notmeofficer


When the rebuilders hang the new Pistons, the pin / small end of the rod is put in a Rod heater to expand them then the pins are pushed into place, :hmmm: they usually get a couple squirts of oil to quickly cool them down some, maybe those weren't. :nod:


A blue wrist pin is usually from lack of lube when running. Did the rods have piston squirters and bearings with holes?


I heat fit pistons/rods all the time. I’ve never turned a pin blue. I use a temp crayon on the rods and heat the pin end to 550*. Some rod ends on will start to discolor at that temp, but most do not. When you push the pin through, it cools quickly. I never squirt oil on them, but I use a little assy lube before fitting.

They only way I could possibly see a pin turning blue if someone is heating the rod glowing red. (And I saw that on horsepower TV!)

Lunatic Fringe
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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #48 by Lunatic Fringe » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:45 pm

sdiesel wrote:i got one of those too,

it wont take a transmission , mine won't at least


No, as it is it won't, but is it the same pattern as an ISO?

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #49 by notmeofficer » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:32 am

Max_Effort wrote:
bubba22349 wrote:
notmeofficer wrote:
This past week I got the bug and did a tear down of a pile of 300 engines. One was a C600 4 x 4 Ford PGE line truck with a huge post hole digger on it.. the 300 had a reman'd steel plate on it from Ford. I cannot imagine how hard this thing got worked.. it has a PTO operated driveshaft going to the drill rig. The forged crank is unknown until I let my crank guy determine it.. there are no Ford numbers on it and I bet it was robbed during the reman.. the only saving grace is that it is a Ford reman and maybe just maybe they did right and put one back in.. doubtful.
Several of the wrist pins were blue from heat.. not scored.. but blue
I wondering if these are even still usable.. there is no ridge but oh boy there's bluing to the hardchrome?

Notmeofficer


When the rebuilders hang the new Pistons, the pin / small end of the rod is put in a Rod heater to expand them then the pins are pushed into place, :hmmm: they usually get a couple squirts of oil to quickly cool them down some, maybe those weren't. :nod:


A blue wrist pin is usually from lack of lube when running. Did the rods have piston squirters and bearings with holes?


I heat fit pistons/rods all the time. I’ve never turned a pin blue. I use a temp crayon on the rods and heat the pin end to 550*. Some rod ends on will start to discolor at that temp, but most do not. When you push the pin through, it cools quickly. I never squirt oil on them, but I use a little assy lube before fitting."



Yes.. they did

This is one of them out of the PGE line truck motor

Image

It looks like it got really hot to me.... they all had blue on them... the motor was the ford reman and its already 40 over.. so its a boat anchor.. it turned over fine,, the scoring on the pin is visual.. there is no discernible ridge.. I wonder if they ran it out of oil or whether it just ran at max rpm and load standing all the time turning the big earth drill used as the pole driller.

Sometimes you win sometimes you lose.. in this case I paid 150.00 for the motor and the only parts really usable are the rods.. the head.. the pulleys.. and maybe the transmission if I can sell it... a NP435 with PTO ..but its the weird c600 version with the goofy shifter mechanism and there's not many of those around anymore

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Re: Please help me build the ulitmate 300 for an F600

Post #50 by notmeofficer » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:42 am

Lunatic Fringe wrote:This is what my motor looked like when I pulled it out of a combine. Been a while since Iv'e dealt with an ISO bell housing. the block has an adapter plate, then the bell housing bolted to it. The parts from the block back weighed over 200 lbs.


Is it direct drive or is there some type clutch inside it? or does the combine have something beyond that engages everything... that bellhousing isnt that different from the industrial ones I have abet smaller

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