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Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

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Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #1 by Asa » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:43 pm

'93 Automatic F150

Getting fuel vapor from the throttle body and it kind of sounds like its firing way deep in the exhaust. Timing sounds like its off, right? And if its firing in the exhaust, I should retard the timing by turning the distributor counter clockwise?

Any other issues that may be causing this?
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #2 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:55 pm

Bring #1 cylinder to 10 degrees before TDC at the compression stroke.
Take distributor cap off and see if the rotor is pointing to #1 plug wire on the cap.

Do you have a timing light?

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #3 by Asa » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:23 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Do you have a timing light?

Somewhere.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #4 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:27 pm

Was the distributor taken out of the engine during the swap?

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #5 by Asa » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:48 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Was the distributor taken out of the engine during the swap?

Brand new everything except block and head, crank, pistons, and camshaft.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #6 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:53 pm

The distributor is probably not in the correct position.
Bring #1 cylinder to 10 degrees before TDC at the compression stroke.
You can check to see if you are on the compression stroke if it tries to push your finger out of number 1 spark plug hole as you turn the crank towards TDC.
Take distributor cap off and see if the rotor is pointing to #1 plug wire on the cap.

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #7 by Asa » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:01 pm

pmuller9 wrote:The distributor is probably not in the correct position.
Bring #1 cylinder to 10 degrees before TDC at the compression stroke.
You can check to see if you are on the compression stroke if it tries to push your finger out of number 1 spark plug hole as you turn the crank towards TDC.
Take distributor cap off and see if the rotor is pointing to #1 plug wire on the cap.

Distributor was put in with the rotating assembly installed, head and pushrods installed, valve cover off, oil pan off, and rocker plate off. I could see it being off enough degrees to not fire, but not an entirely wrong position.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #8 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:08 pm

Please do the rotor position check. It will won't take long and it is the first step that should be done before trying to fire the engine to get the timing close. Then we can fine tune from there.

My concern is that vapor shouldn't make it all the way to the throttle body and out unless an intake valve is open when it shouldn't be.

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #9 by Asa » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:54 am

Minor adjustments, but rotor check was good. Timing light indicates #1 firing when the scribed line hits around 10° on the cast in degree marks on the timing gear cover.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #10 by pmuller9 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:09 pm

Good
Most 300 engines use the bolt-on tab for timing which is on the passenger side unless someone scribed a new line on the harmonic balancer that works with the cast in marks.
Just to be sure With #1 spark plug out bring the piston to TDC by feel with a screw driver or something else that can fit through the spark plug hole and see where the scribed line is.

If that is OK and the engine still doesn't run then do a compression test to check the valve train.

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #11 by Asa » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:25 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Good
Most 300 engines use the bolt-on tab for timing which is on the passenger side.
With #1 spark plug out bring the piston to TDC by feel with a screw driver or something else that can fit through the spark plug hole and see where the scribed line is.

If that is OK and the engine still doesn't run then do a compression test to check the valve train.

From old posts and looking at my old engine, I know the bolt on mark matches the notch on the balancer and the cast in marks match the scribed line. I'm fairly confident the mark indicates good timing, so I'll try the compression test.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #12 by pmuller9 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:37 pm

Which cam do you have in your engine?
If I remember correctly you used the Chevy six rockers?
Did you post this engine build?

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #13 by Asa » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:18 pm

Only thing updated was the chevy rockers. Everything else is stock.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #14 by guhfluh » Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:45 pm

I second checking compression. The rockers may just be too tight.

Once compression is checked, you can move on.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #15 by Asa » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:46 pm

Battery is half dead, but I'm seeing 90-110PSI

110 was the first one when battery was freshest, 90 was after checking all of them and it didn't spin as hard.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #16 by pmuller9 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:33 pm

Did you have the throttle wide open during the compression test?

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #17 by Asa » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:46 pm

Closed.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #18 by pmuller9 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:01 pm

The compression test should be done with WOT.
With the battery charged you should see around 160 PSI after several revolutions.

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #19 by Asa » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:07 pm

So, considering I didn't, those should still be good numbers, right?
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #20 by pmuller9 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:39 pm

It is certainly enough to let an engine run and it shows that the valves are closing on the seats.
What I'm looking for is a reason to explain why there is fuel vapor being pushed out the throttle body, like a retarded cam for instance.
That's why I'm looking for a good compression test.

At this point since there is some compression, if there is fuel and the spark timing is close to correct, the engine should at least try to run.

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #21 by Asa » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:51 pm

Fuel pressure regulator gone bad? Its about the one thing I didn't replace.

I swapped the new distributor with the old. Same with the cap and rotor.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #22 by pmuller9 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:57 pm

Once you get the battery charged try the compression test again with WOT.
I'm trying to determine if the cam timing is OK.
Let the engine turn over a few times on each cylinder till the gauge reading quits increasing.

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #23 by Asa » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:10 am

May not be able to check that. Guy that had the gauge had to go to work today
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #24 by Asa » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:34 pm

120 PSI, 170, 170, 170, 170, 170

So the rings on #1 are gonna need help bedding in.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #25 by pmuller9 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:37 pm

You would have to do a leakdown test to determine where the air is going in cylinder #1 but that's not the problem with not starting.
All other cylinders look good so you are left with spark or fuel.

The fuel pump should run a few seconds when the ignition key is first turned on.
There is a Shrader valve on the fuel rail back by the fire wall that you use to attach a fuel pressure gauge.
You can push the center of the valve open to see if there is any fuel pressure for starting.

You mentioned that you were able to adjust the timing with a timing light which indicates you are getting spark.

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #26 by Asa » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:12 pm

I hear the fuel pump pushing and after two or three attempts at starting the plugs are soaked.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #27 by bubba22349 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:19 pm

Now your getting to the problem! Fuel presure regulator or leaking injectors. Good luck :nod:
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #28 by pmuller9 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:29 pm

All six plugs are soaked?

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #29 by Asa » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:50 pm

pmuller9 wrote:All six plugs are soaked?

Yup.

Injectors and regulator were on the engine that was running. I did change the o-rings on the injectors with the ones that came in the kit but that's all.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #30 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:05 pm

Asa wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:All six plugs are soaked?

Yup.

If fuel is being dumped into the cylinders I would still expect something to happen if there was good spark.

If you have a spare spark plug try attaching it to #1 plug wire, ground the plug on the engine and see if there is a good spark.
The reason for using a spare is to keep the plugs in all six cylinder so there won't be a chance of igniting any fuel escaping out the spark plug hole.

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #31 by Asa » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:31 pm

We got a weak spark when we did that earlier. The battery was weak though, so it may not have been enough to kick it over.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #32 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:35 pm

See what the spark looks like with a charged battery.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #33 by MechRick » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:56 pm

Speed density or mass air flow? Make sure you have intake manifold vacuum to the MAP if the answer to that question is speed density.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #34 by Asa » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:50 pm

MechRick wrote:Speed density or mass air flow? Make sure you have intake manifold vacuum to the MAP if the answer to that question is speed density.

SD, its hooked up
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #35 by Max_Effort » Tue Mar 19, 2019 6:15 pm

pmuller9 wrote:The distributor is probably not in the correct position.
Bring #1 cylinder to 10 degrees before TDC at the compression stroke.
You can check to see if you are on the compression stroke if it tries to push your finger out of number 1 spark plug hole as you turn the crank towards TDC.
Take distributor cap off and see if the rotor is pointing to #1 plug wire on the cap.


I would go back and make absolutely sure that it’s delivering the spark on the compression stroke.

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #36 by bubba22349 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:35 am

:hmmm: the ignistion and EFI aren't going to work correctly unless you have the proper voltage. Are the grounds and electrical conections clean and snug? I spent the time cleaning up all the electical connections and it made a very noticeable difference in how smooth my 1994 4.9 ran. Make sure that the battery is fully charged first so you can read the voltages. After that does the battery test out good and hold a charge? Good luck :thumbup: :nod: Edited
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I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #37 by Asa » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:05 pm

Brand new battery. No change except it spins easier
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #38 by MechRick » Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:22 pm

With the compression you have, the engine should run given proper fuel and spark timing.
It sounds to me like you are getting too much fuel.

Would it be possible to unplug the fuel pump relay, dry the engine out and see if it runs with an external fuel source?
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #39 by Asa » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:41 pm

MechRick wrote:
Would it be possible to unplug the fuel pump relay, dry the engine out and see if it runs with an external fuel source?

WOT during cranking keeps fuel from spraying, does it keep spark from igniting as well?

I could try starting fluid that way or with the fuel relay removed
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #40 by Max_Effort » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:04 am

Asa wrote:
MechRick wrote:
Would it be possible to unplug the fuel pump relay, dry the engine out and see if it runs with an external fuel source?

WOT during cranking keeps fuel from spraying, does it keep spark from igniting as well?

I could try starting fluid that way or with the fuel relay removed


If it really just that it’s overfueling and the plugs are wet, disconnect the fuel pump relay and try starting. It should start briefly as the fuel clears out.


Back to basics....

Establish there is a good spark. Take a clean plug, set the gap .060-.080” the should be a good spark across the gap.

Double check that the distributor is not 180* out.
If in doubt, bring the engine to TDC and re-stab the distributor 180*
It doesn’t cost anything to try that. You can also swap the wires around the cap to accomplish this. Swap 1-6, 2-5, 3-4,

If you want to establish #1 TDC, and ball park cam timing, take off the valve cover or side cover.
As you rotate the engine and get to TDC, the valves, lifters won’t be moving on the compression stroke (either #1 or 6)

on the other cylinder (#1 or 6) the valves will be at overlap, the exhaust valve will be closing and the intake valve opening. As you rotate the engine, Watch the exhaust valve closing (almost closed) and the intake just starting to open.

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #41 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:56 am

Asa wrote:
MechRick wrote:
Would it be possible to unplug the fuel pump relay, dry the engine out and see if it runs with an external fuel source?

WOT during cranking keeps fuel from spraying, does it keep spark from igniting as well?

I could try starting fluid that way or with the fuel relay removed


With an EFI engine you don't need to touch the gas pedel at all when cranking. When starting my 1994 I would turn on the key and listen for the fuel pump to run and stop then crank it over, dry off the plugs and try it again. Good luck :nod: :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #42 by wallen7 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:48 pm

Have your checked the fuel pressure regulator to see if it is leaking? If it is it will drown the plugs with fuel.

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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #43 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:59 pm

A friend of mine, Marv Baumann, built a replica of Henry Ford's original "sink engine". I was over at his shop and he was having trouble getting it to fire. I asked him for a propane soldering torch, wrapped the venturi air bleeds with electrical tape, aimed the jet of pure propane gas into the engine inlet, and it fired right up.

Try that.
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #44 by Asa » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:22 pm

bubba22349 wrote:
With an EFI engine you don't need to touch the gas pedel at all when cranking. When starting my 1994 I would turn on the key and listen for the fuel pump to run and stop then crank it over, dry off the plugs and try it again. Good luck :nod: :thumbup:

Not really what I was asking. With (I think) all EFI engines, if you hold the throttle at WOT it will not fire because it cuts out fuel. You can use this to build oil pressure after you do an oil change

My question was if doing that cut spark as well.
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bubba22349
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #45 by bubba22349 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:58 pm

Asa wrote:
bubba22349 wrote:
With an EFI engine you don't need to touch the gas pedel at all when cranking. When starting my 1994 I would turn on the key and listen for the fuel pump to run and stop then crank it over, dry off the plugs and try it again. Good luck :nod: :thumbup:

Not really what I was asking. With (I think) all EFI engines, if you hold the throttle at WOT it will not fire because it cuts out fuel. You can use this to build oil pressure after you do an oil change

My question was if doing that cut spark as well.


No it dosent cut the spark.
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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MechRick
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Re: Swap done, engine cranks, no full power stroke

Post #46 by MechRick » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:10 pm

Unplugging the FP relay will rule out a stuck injector or shorted injector control circuit.

You may have to pull and dry the plugs.

Determining whether it's spark or fuel will narrow the list of possible faults.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73244
Bronco II with a 2.3L swap http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=72863
1988 F250 2x4, 460 ZF 5 speed.

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