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Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

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88F15088
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Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #1 by 88F15088 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:40 am

While I am still researching and waiting on parts for my turbo 300 build, I want to work on turboing the stock 300 currently in the truck. This can give me an idea of setting up the turbo and intercooler piping, as well as a little more fun out of the truck until my build is completed. I only plan for 4-6 lbs of boost on the stock motor.

Since my truck is an '88 model year, it comes with the fragile cast pistons prone to cracking. A few months ago out of curiosity, I sent in an oil sample from the last oil change. The results confirm there may be issues with the pistons, as the lab notes
"This engine has a problem. Chrome is from the piston rings and it's very high at 47 ppm. That may show a stuck or broken piston ring.
Aluminum, iron, and copper (which were also high) are from the pistons, steel, and brass/bronze parts."

Another symptom possibly pointing to cracked pistons is a slight tapping/knocking sound that goes away after the engine is warmed up.

This is not a prime candidate for turbocharging, and I would prefer not to send broken piston bits through the exhaust into my freshly rebuilt turbo. I want to spend as little time and money as possible to strengthen the stock engine for low boost.

My plans are to disassemble the engine while still in the truck, remove the pistons and connecting rods, have a machine shop install a set of Speed Pro H519P hypereutectic pistons on the rods with Sealed Power E-229K rings, ball hone (if necessary), new headgasket, and call it good. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to get new head bolts, but it adds expense.

Is there anything I should add? Any input or other suggestions would be appreciated.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #2 by pmuller9 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:47 am

Replace the timing gears if the cam gear is fiber.

I understand what you want to do but you may find that the cylinders have too much wear and are too oval to use a new set of rings and pistons.
Also consider that new Hyper pistons are supposed to be installed with a .002" max clearance not .020" to .030" in a worn cylinder.
That's my disclaimer.

So if you do proceed anyway
Cut the ridge at the top of the cylinders so you don't damage the new top piston rings.
Also check the piston ring end gap 4" down in the cylinder where the gap will be the tightest due to worn cylinder taper.

Chances are the rod bearings and crank journals are worn.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #3 by Mdixon300f100 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:40 am

Use arp head studs and rod bolts. It’s cheap insurance

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #4 by pmuller9 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:06 am

Mdixon300f100 wrote:Use arp head studs and rod bolts. It’s cheap insurance


If you use ARP rod bolts you should check the rod bore for roundness. The rod ends may need to be resized.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #5 by 88F15088 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:21 am

I already have ARP head studs and metal timing gears for my build, so I can use those at no "added" cost. I am hoping to have my build finished over the summer, so this turbo'd contraption will likely never see more than 10k miles. It will, however, see lots of higher RPMs in boost. :D

The original plan was to turbo the stock motor without doing anything to it. With the information I have now, this would almost certainly lead to failure. It would also be a fun experiment to see what the stock motor can handle.

Perhaps my first step is to remove the head and use a dial bore gauge to check cylinder bore, then decide if I should proceed.

If the cylinder walls are too far gone, since the head would already be off I would have a chance to clean up the ports and have a valve job done to perk it up a little.

It may be a good idea to check compression this weekend to check the health of the motor.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #6 by Max_Effort » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:41 am

pmuller9 wrote:
Mdixon300f100 wrote:Use arp head studs and rod bolts. It’s cheap insurance


If you use ARP rod bolts you should check the rod bore for roundness. The rod ends may need to be resized.



X2, stock used rods rarely measure OK.(although often reused without measuring) They’re not going to be ok after installing new bolts.

Anytime I’m upgrading to ARP bolts, the rods get resized. Press out the old old bolts, clip the caps and rods, press in the new bolts. Torque/stretch the bolts 2-3 times, then hone to size.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #7 by Mdixon300f100 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:20 am

88F15088 wrote:
The original plan was to turbo the stock motor without doing anything to it. With the information I have now, this would almost certainly lead to failure. It would also be a fun experiment to see what the stock motor can handle


A healty stock engine can handle a lot of boost. There are numerous examples of 300s running turbos with very little bottom end modification.

It’s detonation that kills engines. As long as it’s kept out of detonation it will perform far better than you’d expect. Google the 10 sec maverick. Or search the turbo forum. There are plenty of ways to make power without serious engine mods.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #8 by 88F15088 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:51 am

Mdixon300f100 wrote:A healty stock engine can handle a lot of boost. There are numerous examples of 300s running turbos with very little bottom end modification.

It’s detonation that kills engines. As long as it’s kept out of detonation it will perform far better than you’d expect. Google the 10 sec maverick. Or search the turbo forum. There are plenty of ways to make power without serious engine mods.


The problem is this is not a healthy engine, as indicated from the oil analysis results. There were larger than normal amounts of piston and ring material found in the oil sample.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #9 by Mdixon300f100 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:11 am

Agreed, but a fairly stock rebuild can get you where you want to go, is what I’m getting at.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #10 by pmuller9 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:51 pm

Mdixon300f100 wrote:A healty stock engine can handle a lot of boost. There are numerous examples of 300s running turbos with very little bottom end modification.

It’s detonation that kills engines. As long as it’s kept out of detonation it will perform far better than you’d expect. Google the 10 sec maverick. Or search the turbo forum. There are plenty of ways to make power without serious engine mods.

This is true but not the total picture.
In every case on this forum where there was loss of boost control there was engine failure.
It appears that allowing the boost to go past 20 lbs on a stock piston is about the limit.
So 8 to 10 lbs of boost on a stock engine is reasonable providing the engine is in good health.

Back in the day when these engines were plentiful you simply added a turbocharger for racing and when the engine failed (and they did for sure) you just got another 300 and kept racing. Same went for the Ford 2300 four.
That's what started the throw away mentality but the 300 six is no longer plentiful and should get higher regard.

All the examples posted show full boost for just seconds at a time where there isn't time for significant heat buildup.
If a turbo 300 is being used for hard duty against heavy loads for long periods of time the engine needs to be purpose built.
The stock engine will not survive.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #11 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Mar 17, 2019 3:31 pm

88F15088 wrote:"This engine has a problem. Chrome is from the piston rings and it's very high at 47 ppm. That may show a stuck or broken piston ring.

I find this curious.
The 300 didn't use chrome rings. They use iron rings with a moly-faced top ring. Maybe they were changed out somewhere in its
life???

Shades of "My Cousin Vinnie"?
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #12 by Phase3 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:08 pm

Resurfacing the block and head would be pretty high priority id say. Would help keep the headgasket on and the fel pro 1024 gasket. Also would consider only tightening the head studs to factory bolt specs as to prevent pulling up on the deck too much. Just a theory ive been using. I would think you would save alot of time pulling the motor from the truck in most of this process, as a suggestion.
1996 f150 turbo 4.9 OBD2 M5OD 4x4 12 lbs on 93
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #13 by xctasy » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:50 pm

Elemental Analysis of oil is usually performed using Inductively Coupled Plasma (ICP) spectroscopy, and some of the moly could be from other parts, especially if someone has done the hydraulic lifters and used cam paste. Additive Manufacturing (AM) is a new way to make common grey iron work like a higher quality ring, and if its broken, then it'll show up even if its just one ring land thats got a top ring problem. If they used the reference ISO cleaness or particle count micron levels, (an example of the various reported micron levels includes those greater than 4, 6, 10, 14, 21, 38, 70 and 100 microns), they pick up oil change to oil change proof of wear. The used filter anaylsis is also an excellent indicator.


The whole part of getting Thinwall Henries to work in a modern performance world is ensuring the rings bed in by doing all the basic work to ensure your percentage shots work in your favour.

Form my readings, indications are that even back with the Ford Performance Big Six project, Bruce Sizemore was final plateau honing the bores of the Preparation H Maverick with 600 micro inch grit back in 1972, and that's where you should be headed too.

I'm adamant that you cannot safely re-hone a modern cylinder bore in a thinwall Ford, as the distortion exists in everything made that way. Piston slap is probable in those cases, irrespective of what type of piston you use. You can grab a Truck, Taxi or Police Cruiser engine, toss in a blister pack bearing, ring, bolt and new piston kit, and turbo it and win races, or go oval track, and do the same, but an engine like that gets watched and striped fairly regularly. WorkenToo Much will tell you how good a later hyper 1994 on 4.9 is.

If your going to use it as a dual or triple use truck engine, then you have to rebore it. You don't have to align hone, you don't have to do the crank mains, or re hash the crank bearings, that introduces other matters to contend with. You don't have to put it on a Humbolt vibrating table, and shake and rattle it for a couple of hours or days, but all of that can be done, and pays off if you do it right.

My opinion, is the same as the ProDrive and Tickford did when re animating the ancient 302 EFi Explorer Mountaineer engine for the 1999 to 2003 295 and 335 hp 5.0 and 5.6 stroker engines. They took a fast cast thinwall Cleveland foundary WCP casting, and just plateau honed it, and used HyperEutectic pistons, and to do that they focused totally on getting a good bore finish, using some ages old technique with some new focus points.

You need to use common sense and do the following:

1.Use a good bore gauge.

2. Have the block carefully to honed straight.

3. Keep the bore geometry within .0005˝ or less of being round and straight, ideally within .0002˝ to .0003˝ of specifications.

4. The modern focus is to brush the cylinders after honing with a good quality soft brush tool to clean away the torn and folded metal debris.

5. To get there, often three kinds of modern kit are used, some final stages use a Bruce Sizemeore style 600 grit hone. It all varies, because the measure of succes is actually


These six following quotients:

Image

The units above, in my opinion, are not important since the term micron and the place holder in(,) are not used as per the European book I got the info from. The angle is the horizontal angle, not the vertical included angle, so some conventions vary.


And Ra, not an Egytian deity, but a dreaded Roughness Average which is bandied about, isn't one of them, but its used as a final reference.

The type of honing media and finishing procedure you should use depends on the application, and I've got the figures below.

The basic process is in https://www.aa1car.com/library/plateau_finish.htm

Lyle Haley of Peterson Machine Tool says #280 grit stones are a good choice for most applications, but are a little on the coarse side and by themselves won't give you a plateau finish. He uses a #400 grit stone for at least .0004˝ to .0005˝ of conventional subtractive stock removal, but not much more than that or you will be down to base metal. He then plateau the surface with a soft brush tool to finish the job. Others use up to 600 grit diamond brush or silica do do that, and the goal is a target rating of specfications that produce a plateau for the modern ring packs to ride on without it ever collapsing.

After that, you consider stock cast, hypereutectic, Forged 2618 or 4032, or whatever, and then do the standard ring clearance per inch of bore, or go Sizemores Gapless rings, and look at blow by prevention, and decide on running in procedures. If you want to lean on it in the first 1000 miles, then you have to look at clearances and end use. If you baby it over 5000 miles, you can make it practically indestructable.

A bore that has been in constant use without detonation, might cope with turbo pressure or nitrous, but you certainly cannot realiably create a dual use engine that allows Mommy to fetch the Soccar Squids, and then bash the meanest street fighter in Gotham City with 20 pounds of boost or 900 psi of Giggle Gas on the Sunday 1320 dash. Ring lands, thermal stress, and a thrust face thickness 130 thou think cylinder wall from a 30 thou overbore won't let you cope with an 11:1 effective compression ratio under boost or chemical assistance. But you can get close if you know what final ring and piston to wall clearance you end use is going to require. That means thinking about real boost ratio with Low Pressure Turboing or High Out put Turboing. 7psi is easy, and then same as the best nitrous boost ratio at about 1.47 power and torque boost. For that 20 psi, you've got a potential 2.3 power and torque boost ratio. Blow by goes up proportional to that, and it is sudden an violent, and its a waste of time arguing if if was the detonation or the mechanics of the rings, piston clearance or thermal loads, when its containing a chemical reduction.

IMHO, you cannot do both safely for dual or triple purpose at the outer limits unless you shrink the usage. If its on the bottle, then an in operation chemically stoichometric 1.47 factor from stock un gassed verses the maximum gased Hp is the practical limit due to oxygen pecome the touch paper in the combustion chamber, just like a 7 psi turbo with an intercooler. In the other way, the fuel loads from exotic detonation reducing alcohol or heat promoting blends of heavy chemistry fuel need a different tact for clearances. A supercharged engine differs from a turbo engine due to the unloaded state hitting on the ring lands hard for a turbo, while a Rootes, Screw or axial flow belt driven Supercharger requires other kinds of piston to bore support. The blow by level is very easy to calculate, and dyno tuner David Vizard says he can determine exactly how many hours life remain on a dynoed engine by blow by and leak down analysis.

A cammed up engine, like a Mustang OHV 5.0 EFi with a modern aftermarket cam that makes 430 hp at 6500 rpm and 365 lb-ft at 4800 rpm needs to be safe to over speed 10% over the peak power level, people do acidentally miss gearchanges, or get wheel spin, so a stock Windsor style V8 Ford block will eventualy crack down the center, or split bores or bulkeads if it ever does even 7100 rpm. A lack of bore support and flex will have a person asking...was it the block, the bores, the rings, the pistons, the main bearings or the combustion chamber that killed my stock engine block?

The converted Look-up specs for a standard cylinder liner are:-

Image

Ra, Rpk, Rk, Rvk, and Horizontal angle are mapped in the modfied table above, with the horizontal trench margins d1, and the cross hatch distances shown d2.

A cross check is that Rt is close to (but deeper than) the sum of Rpk, Rk and Rvk.

The Rpk, Rk and Rvk values are associated with the compression and oil ring tensions for the kind of ring pack you use. Ra is for descriptive purposes only.

Yellow zones haven't been exactly confirmed yet.

Image

Sourced:-https://www.sunnen.com/graphics/assets/documents/e2e25e493b00.pdf
Last edited by xctasy on Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #14 by 88F15088 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:28 am

I have another engine I am fully building for this truck with forged internals and a ported head. That being said, I want to spend as little time and money as possible to prepare this engine for light turbocharging, since it will only be in the truck a few months while I complete my build. I would like to keep it under $400.

Next weekend I will check compression in all cylinders. The next step I believe would be to take a dial bore gauge and see how far off the bores are from the factory 4.000", measuring taper and out of round. Based on those numbers, I can determine if removing the block and boring the cylinders is necessary. The block can then be reassembled with oversize hypereutectic pistons and appropriate rings.

Since I do not really want to remove the engine from the truck at this stage, I may end up lightly porting the cylinder head and reassembling everything.

For reference, here is the oil analysis. I am considering doing a follow up test in the next few months or next oil change interval.
88 F150 4.9 Oil Analysis.png
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #15 by sandboxer » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:17 pm

Not to hijack, but I have a similar issue. Bore measures 3.98 in all holes, with crosshatch visible but worn on thrust side. Dingle hone and new rings?

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #16 by xctasy » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:41 pm

sandboxer wrote:Not to hijack, but I have a similar issue. Bore measures 3.98 in all holes, with crosshatch visible but worn on thrust side. Dingle hone and new rings?



No, I wouldn't. I'm not saying that you can't, though, but its a risk of putting money into something that won't pay off.

The deep scores in every finished bore aren't taken out by a re-hone, the vital plateau zone, that skiff of 0.4 to 0.5 thou circumferential wall support zone that allows the rings to preform good static leak-down and hold blow by, that IS normally ruined if the machinist has honed just a little too much , like more than 15 turns of a moderate 750 watt hone. Its hard to judge that unless you have a process to measure that R micro texture stuff. In the old days, we just reassembled the ring pack, and did 7 to 12 pound pull out tests, and that set the buffing up of the cylinder bore, but that is not accurate enough with lower tension rings and smoother textures the ring makes and piston producers recommend. A customer needs to be looked after by good process.

The thrust side is going to be the ovalaity and tapper part that ruins ring bed in, and ring bed in requires a nice, uniform thin buffer zone to support it properly.

Before that, bore tapper and ovalarity stop new rings bedding in, and you get ring land failure, and cracked pistons.

Great engines don't just happen, they are made.

Although you can easily find a block that checks out for tapper and ovalarity, the vital settings for

1. ring gap,

2. plateau bore texture and

3. figuring out how to run the ring gaps without getting piston slap from the run in process is all about how you condition the 23 thou of cylinder wall that touches the rings.

That so called 3 to maybee 22 Ra zone is actually really 23 thou deep from peak to trough buffer zone on the circumference of the whole cylinder wall, or 46 thou.


Even a 20 thou over bore won't give the builder the margin to control texture if an I6 block has been in service.

The exception is a babied engine that has EFi, no incipient detonation exposure in day to day running. The Big Six 4.9 EFi isn't one of those engines, even with a knock sensor, they really are not going to be kind to the bore texture in a loaded truck that might carry GVW's of over 5000 pounds of more.


Eg 1. A good example is the 1996-2001 Explorer 5 liter V8 that has been looked after, even in a 4200 pound XLT or Mountaineer, they usually survive well. You can just get away with re-ringing those with a moderate hone with the right grade abrasives.

Eg 2. Another is the forged piston 5.0 carb and EFI 5.0's in a light 3250 pound car like the Mustang and Capri. They have great bore texture in most cases, because even hammered, they a fueled and timed to keep out of the detonation zone, even 86 Speed Density Stangs with 9:1 compression.


Eg 3. Ford Australia, for 3 years from late 1999 to early 2003, were able to just lightly 600 grit hone out brand new machined 1999-2001 era 5.0 215 hp SUV blocks to turn them into 295 and 335 hp pavement burners, but with those, a new, virgin cylinder wall gives you total scope, and they used torque plates and really did some magic stuff, especially the 342 stock bore stroker 5.6. With very mundane 1.169" compression height height silicon Hyper Eutectic pistons with metric ring packs and really focused cylinder wall preparation, it was rare for those engines to split bores or blocks, even though they had IIRC, the standard EECV 6250 rpm rev limits with the 5.6 strokers.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #17 by philford » Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:59 pm

if you pull the block , send it to be rebored, stick new pistons and bearings in then you'll have something worthy of your time. send it for balancing wiht the crank , flywheel, con rods, new pistons etc.. and then if you want to spend time and money on mods at least you have a good base. I did that with my old volvo, it really screams after a few mods like polishing ports, hotter cam slightly larger jets. as a bonus I increased displacement by 200 CC. the balancing made a huge difference and wasn't expensive.

Ive seen so many try to do a half a job, pull the head fix up the valves put it back together and all you do is increase the compression a little and make it burn oil. by then they dont want to pull it apart again to do a proper job of it. and it costs almost as much and still takes about the same time.

trying to do a good job of honing and ridge reaming the block in place sounds like an exercise in frustration. If it's re bored it'll fit right, run smooth , not smoke, and give you many years of fun. want more power? see how far you can bore thing thing out. Then do mods like turbo later..
all you need to do is pull the motor and that wont; take you longer than messing around trying to get new rings in there. send it for boring and youll have new rings and pistons that fit properly. Changing bearing shells is easy and I bet you can get by without touching the crank, just do a little polish to the journals. sending the head out rather than lapping valves it is probably money well spent.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #18 by 88F15088 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:40 am

What may be confusing to some members responding to this thread is that I already have a 300 I am building up. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=77215&start=136 If you go to the beginning of that thread you will see I started it only intending to do slight mods such as exhaust, cam, and maybe port the head. That quickly turned into me purchasing a junkyard engine hoping to do a budget turbo rebuild, then that turns into a full build up with forged rods, forged pistons, big valve ported head, etc. with plans to run 15-20 PSI.

This is why I want to spend as little money as possible on the stock engine to be able to handle up to 10 lbs of boost so I have something to play around with while I am still finishing my built motor. If I were to pull the engine from the truck, it would inevitably snowball into things I should do to it "while I'm in there."

So IF I did pull the engine from the truck, I would:
-Bore .030" over
-New hyper pistons and rings
-Possibly mill deck and head
-Mild DIY porting
-Valve job
-Have machinist inspect main and rod crank journals, machine .010" under if necessary
-New main and rod bearings
-Leave rods, cam bearings, freeze plugs, rockers, springs, and pushrods alone
-Possibly upgrade to a slightly better turbo and EFI friendly cam? (here we go...)
-Comp metal timing gears (already have)
-ARP head studs (already have)
-FelPro 1024 head gasket

This puts me at least in the $1-1,500 range, maybe less if I can somehow skip milling the block and cylinder head, getting by with polishing the crank journals.

That's all I can think of. It would be a pretty stock-ish rebuild, but has key upgrades such as hyper pistons and light porting. As stated before, I want to minimize time and money spent on this stock motor as it is only a temporary solution until I finish my built motor. Doing a stock-ish rebuild will also give me some experience with rebuilding an engine and messing with the turbo. I think it would be better to learn on a cheap stock rebuild so I can take my time and have some experience when I go to tackle my built motor!

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #19 by 88F15088 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:05 pm

What would be a decent off the shelf (i.e. cheap) cam that would work well with 8lbs of boost on a lightly ported head?

I am ready to take the stock motor apart and build it for low boost.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #20 by Mdixon300f100 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:46 pm

88F15088 wrote:What would be a decent off the shelf (i.e. cheap) cam that would work well with 8lbs of boost on a lightly ported head?

I am ready to take the stock motor apart and build it for low boost.


Isky offers a low boost cam for our engine, the turbo cycle A. I don’t know the part# off the top of my head, but it might be a good place to start.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #21 by pmuller9 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:48 pm

88F15088 wrote:What would be a decent off the shelf (i.e. cheap) cam that would work well with 8lbs of boost on a lightly ported head?
I am ready to take the stock motor apart and build it for low boost.


What rpm range do you want to make power?
Which exhaust manifold are you going to use?

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #22 by 88F15088 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:32 pm

I want to use the heavy duty exhaust manifold, I already have it and I plan to use a 3" mandrel bend to locate the turbo. I hope it will fit with the EFI intake.

This stock build will be for fun and experimentation until I can finish my fully built motor. Lets say redline at 4k or 4,500? From regular driving, I have found it best to shift at 1,500 RPM when I'm not "hot rodding" around. Ideally I would like to build boost at 1,800 to 2,200 RPM. I will be running a rebuilt HX35 and use this as an opportunity to setup my turbo piping and mount my HUGE 4" thick intercooler.

Is the H519P a good piston for my needs? I plan for 8-10lbs on 87 octane.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #23 by pmuller9 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:48 pm

You need a compression ratio in the low 8s to use 87 octane pump gas.

If you are using the 1988 head then you will need the Speed Pro H554CP 30 pistons.
The dish volume should be over 30cc and will give you a little room to deck the block to clean up the surface.
Leave the pistons at least .025" in the hole.

When you get the pistons you will need to cc the dish of all 8 pistons to get the exact volume.

Then use the Schneider 131H (13910) .464”/.464” 208/208 262/262 112deg cam and set the intake lobe center at 108 degrees ATDC.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #24 by 88F15088 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:32 am

pmuller9 wrote:The dish volume should be over 30cc...


The Q&A at the bottom of the Summit listing for the H554CP 30 notes a 15.78cc dish. Summit also shows they are a special order item and could take a month to ship.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-h554cp30

I will contact Schneider to recommend springs and lifters for the cam. I plan to reuse the stock pushrods if possible. Does the cam have a lope at idle?

Using a compression ratio calculator, with a 4.030" bore, 68cc combustion chamber, 30cc piston dish, .039" compressed thickness at 4.180" bore on the FelPro 1024 head gasket, .025" deck clearance, and 3.98" stroke, my static compression ratio would be around 8.4:1, which should be perfect for my application.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #25 by pmuller9 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:43 am

The Speed Pro H554CP crosses over to the Silvolite 3158HP.
The Silvolite 3158H does not have the coating which is my preference since the coating doesn't seem to stay on after many miles.
Anyway you have 3 pistons to choose from.

If you do the math for the dish volume for all three (0.300 inch deep x 3.210 inch diameter) you get over 30cc but the radius at the bottom of the dish takes up a few cc.
Silvolite Catalog shows this piston as a 7.8 compression ratio with the 76cc head.

The Schneider 131H will not have a lope at idle.
The wide 112 LSA reduces valve overlap for better compatibility with turbocharging and EFI.

The 1988 head has short valves and springs so wait until you get the head apart to take measurements before ordering springs.

Do you have an extra set of 6 intake spring retainers laying around?

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #26 by 88F15088 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:05 pm

It looks like the 3158H is the way to go. They are in stock at Summit and based on your findings, will give me a compression ratio in the mid 8s.

I already have one of these motors torn down, so I'm sure I could come up with the stock retainers. It's just a matter of finding them.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #27 by CNC-Dude » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:27 pm

Phase3 wrote: Also would consider only tightening the head studs to factory bolt specs as to prevent pulling up on the deck too much. Just a theory ive been using.


You would just be defeating the purpose of using a better quality head stud by failing to ensure you stretch it to ARP's engineered specifications, and possibly allowing it to cause failure from keeping the head gasket from being fully compressed as intended. Many of these fasteners stretch isn't linear, and even just 10 pounds away from final torque, have only reached 3/4 or less of their engineered stretch amount. Don't try to overthink the engineers that have 40+years of experience and hundreds of thousands of dollars companies like ARP or any other manufacturer have spent in R&D designing their products.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #28 by Phase3 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:52 pm

Aftetrmarket blocks can handle more linear pull from the head mounting areas and benefit from a tighter clamping force. You will pull the deck up if you use these extraordinary specs on a stock block, proven by many time and time again. By using a higher quality larger diameter stud, you may not get the whole rated tension that is advertised, but you will have better clamping load even at stock torque specs.
Lets keep these posts on track
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #29 by CNC-Dude » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:57 am

Even OEM fasteners do that in stock blocks, but is a non-issue proven by many time and time again as well. The point is you made an unsound and invalid comment based on your "theory" that could cause members with less experience to possibly take your "theory" as being a sound and valid practice to enact and cause problems for them. We all need to remember that a lot of young, fresh enthusiasts come here seeking advice and knowledge, and can easily mistake comments as being fact. This is often how myths and urban legends begin. So we need to be as accurate as possible with our discussions.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #30 by 88F15088 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:33 pm

Here are the results from a dry and wet compression test.

I'm not sure what's going on with cylinder 1 with the wet test, I think I put in too much oil and it threw off the reading. On the last few cylinders I'm not sure I put in enough oil, which may have made the readings a bit lower than they could be.

Cyl == dry == wet
1 == 155 == 220 (?)
2 == 160 == 205
3 == 160 == 195
4 == 165 == 180
5 == 165 == 185
6 == 165 == 175

What are your thoughts? Time for a rebuild? I say yes, for peace of mind with the turbo.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #31 by 88F15088 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:29 pm

I will be mailing a follow up sample to Blackstone Labs tomorrow and am in the process of pulling the head to inspect and measure the bores. I think I will go ahead and yank it for a rebuild so I can use hyper pistons.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #32 by 88F15088 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:59 pm

I am getting a bit confused and need some input before I proceed.

I pulled the cylinder head today and started measuring the bores with a dial bore gauge zeroed out at 4.000" with a micrometer.

Everything looks in spec of the Haynes manual: taper limit .010" and out of round limit .005"

I am hoping to hear back from Blackstone Labs sometime next week as I sent a follow up oil analysis. If you note in the first analysis I posted, in addition to high metal content, there was also high silicon content, which they noted could be a filtration issue and possibly contribute to accelerated wear on metal parts. I have had a bolt missing from the air box for a little while now, which may be letting some dirt get past the filter.

Where I am stumped is the analysis showing possible piston damage, but I have good results from the compression test and cylinder wear appears to be relatively in spec. I wonder if I am chasing all of these issues down for it to only be a filtration issue?

Attached is a photo with the measurements I recorded. I also have attached some pictures of the cylinders.

20190716_181903.jpg


20190716_171423.jpg


20190716_171420.jpg
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #33 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:44 pm

A few observations:

I noticed the piston dish has a circular depression in it. Are you sure this short block isn't from an industrial application - with lower CR than a truck? An industrial short block might have chrome rings which would explain the high chromium content in the oil analysis.

Second, notice the ring pack wasn't making contact in the bores up near the head bolt holes. That is why I recommend a re-bore with a block plate so you end up with round bores not square[ish].

And finally, did you check wear on #1 lengthwise along the crank axis? That is where I've seen most wear.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #34 by Max_Effort » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:43 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:A few observations:

I noticed the piston dish has a circular depression in it. Are you sure this short block isn't from an industrial application - with lower CR than a truck? An industrial short block might have chrome rings which would explain the high chromium content in the oil analysis.

Second, notice the ring pack wasn't making contact in the bores up near the head bolt holes. That is why I recommend a re-bore with a block plate so you end up with round bores not square[ish].

And finally, did you check wear on #1 lengthwise along the crank axis? That is where I've seen most wear.


X2, The head bolt marks are evidence of what happens when cylinders are NOT plate honed.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #35 by 88F15088 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:41 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I noticed the piston dish has a circular depression in it. Are you sure this short block isn't from an industrial application - with lower CR than a truck? An industrial short block might have chrome rings which would explain the high chromium content in the oil analysis.


How would I find out if it's an industrial short block?

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:And finally, did you check wear on #1 lengthwise along the crank axis? That is where I've seen most wear.


Did you see my attachment with the measurements I recorded?

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #36 by Max_Effort » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:06 pm

88F15088 wrote:
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I noticed the piston dish has a circular depression in it. Are you sure this short block isn't from an industrial application - with lower CR than a truck? An industrial short block might have chrome rings which would explain the high chromium content in the oil analysis.


How would I find out if it's an industrial short block?

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:And finally, did you check wear on #1 lengthwise along the crank axis? That is where I've seen most wear.


Did you see my attachment with the measurements I recorded?


IMHO, Those bores aren’t suitable for a performance build. If you remove the rotating assy, torque the head back on and go in with the bore gauge from the bottom, you will get a more accurate measurement. However, the wear pattern shows the cylinders aren’t very round.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #37 by sandboxer » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:33 pm

Max_Effort wrote:
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:A few observations:

I noticed the piston dish has a circular depression in it. Are you sure this short block isn't from an industrial application - with lower CR than a truck? An industrial short block might have chrome rings which would explain the high chromium content in the oil analysis.

Second, notice the ring pack wasn't making contact in the bores up near the head bolt holes. That is why I recommend a re-bore with a block plate so you end up with round bores not square[ish].

And finally, did you check wear on #1 lengthwise along the crank axis? That is where I've seen most wear.


X2, The head bolt marks are evidence of what happens when cylinders are NOT plate honed.


Could you please clarify the head bolt marks clue so I know what to look for?
Thanks

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #38 by Max_Effort » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:08 pm

sandboxer wrote:
Max_Effort wrote:
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:A few observations:

I noticed the piston dish has a circular depression in it. Are you sure this short block isn't from an industrial application - with lower CR than a truck? An industrial short block might have chrome rings which would explain the high chromium content in the oil analysis.

Second, notice the ring pack wasn't making contact in the bores up near the head bolt holes. That is why I recommend a re-bore with a block plate so you end up with round bores not square[ish].

And finally, did you check wear on #1 lengthwise along the crank axis? That is where I've seen most wear.


X2, The head bolt marks are evidence of what happens when cylinders are NOT plate honed.


Could you please clarify the head bolt marks clue so I know what to look for?
Thanks


Areas in-line with the head bolt that are dull or shiny. Some bores pull out, some push in at the bolt when the head is torqued. Bores will also will pinch in one way and push out on the other... whole bore goes oval.


I tried to mark up the OP’s photo, (not the best mark-up job). These other photos are easier to see.

9E99C938-35F0-4DDC-960A-07D3A9B409B3.jpeg

699C03E9-8217-45B7-9B2D-9EC76B13F325.jpeg

AD433F54-BFFC-42AF-A7B1-FC784B663AF8.jpeg
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #39 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:12 pm

The bores will be pulled outward at every bolt hole, giving the bores a "square[ish]" configuration. This is typical for every 300 bored without a honing plate.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #40 by sandboxer » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:51 pm

Thanks gents.
Yikes, I didn’t realize it was that severe. Good to know.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #41 by 88F15088 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:00 am

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:The bores will be pulled outward at every bolt hole, giving the bores a "square[ish]" configuration. This is typical for every 300 bored without a honing plate.


Very interesting, but it makes sense! Can this cause reliability issues down the road? For my "fully built" motor I have already had the block machined, but am uncertain if a torque plate/hone plate was used.

Later this week I will drop the oil pan and see if I can get a look at the piston skirts without having to remove the engine entirely. I am also eager to get the results back from my follow up oil analysis.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #42 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:53 am

sandboxer wrote:Thanks gents.
Yikes, I didn’t realize it was that severe. Good to know.

Its not severe. Millions of 300 run for 100Ks of miles with square[ish] bores, as do countless other types of engines. But if you want the Nth degree of cylinder / ring sealing then this is what performance minded buffs do to help achieve that. Also, skinny, metric rings help accomplish better sealing too - admittedly a Band Aid to the square[ish] bore issue - so if you are ordering pistons you may want to seek out a design that uses a modern skinny ring pack.
And keep the oil clean so they don't gum up.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #43 by 88F15088 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:09 pm

I pulled the oil pan and looked at pistons 4, 5, and 6, and they appear to look good. Can someone post photos of cracked pistons so I know what I should be looking for?

I think I found the problem! There are wasp nests and other debris INSIDE the oil pan. I don't think they fell in the oil pan when I was removing it, because they looked pretty oil soaked. How these got in the pan and how long they've been sitting there I do not know, I've only had the truck for 20k or so miles, so anything could have happened in it's previous life. Pump screen looks clean.

That may be why the analysis shows debris in the oil. This debris could in turn be accelerating wear on engine parts, showing as high metal content in the oil. Just my hypothesis.

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20190720_171822.jpg
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #44 by pmuller9 » Sat Jul 20, 2019 9:27 pm

The inside of the engine looks very clean.
This is what a broken piston looks like. The engine will still run with the piston in this condition.
Even though the early EFI engines had regular cast pistons we generally see broken pistons in the earlier engines.
Image

My advice is to clean the pan and put it back on.
Leave the stock cam in, do some head work, change the valve springs and begin the turbocharger installation.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #45 by 88F15088 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:55 am

Sweet! I will begin disassembling the cylinder head later today to go to the machinist. Since a valve job is being done, do the valves need to be kept in the same order?

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #46 by jgregg13 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:35 am

pmuller9 wrote:Even though the early EFI engines had regular cast pistons we generally see broken pistons in the earlier engines.

So does this mean that later EFI engines came from Ford with Hypereutectic pistons? My engine in question is out of a '94 pickup, but is a replacement engine so I don't know what year it really is. Is there an easy way to identify the year of the engine? Mine does not have the air blower that cools the injectors which I've seen on earlier models.

I assume the hypereutectic pistons would be better than the old cast pistons for a mild turbo application as long as detonation is eliminated and the fit is not too loose?

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #47 by bubba22349 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:39 am

jgregg13 wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:Even though the early EFI engines had regular cast pistons we generally see broken pistons in the earlier engines.

So does this mean that later EFI engines came from Ford with Hypereutectic pistons? My engine in question is out of a '94 pickup, but is a replacement engine so I don't know what year it really is. Is there an easy way to identify the year of the engine? Mine does not have the air blower that cools the injectors which I've seen on earlier models.

I assume the hypereutectic pistons would be better than the old cast pistons for a mild turbo application as long as detonation is eliminated and the fit is not too loose?


The Hyperectic Pistions started being used in the mid year of 1995, also all of the 1996 models through until to the end of 4.9 production in 1997. The 4.9 was still used in a few of the 1997 models like F 250 & F 350 Superduty body style that still looked like a 1996 plus some E 250 & up Econoline Vans. Look for your block casting numbers and date code to determine the year of your engine. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #48 by Phase3 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:44 pm

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79442#p613393

If this helps. Ive tried to come up with a way to tell also besides the year.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #49 by Max_Effort » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:24 pm

Hyper is stronger than non-hyper cast pistons, but still weak compared to a forged.

For forged on a budget, Speed-Pro Sealed-Power L-2446F30 forged piston (for the 351W) can be found for a reasonable cost. It’s 4032 material, but much stronger than a cast piston. It has a .912” pin so either early rods, or bushed rods can be used. The pin bushing for a Ford Y Block is one that can work.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #50 by Phase3 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:41 pm

Hyper was standard equipment in super coupes. Also all the new coyote mustangs are hyper with exception og boss 302 and have no issues with boost. Detonation kills all. If it dont detonate hyper will hold up as well as forged.
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