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Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

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MechRick
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #51 by MechRick » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:31 pm

jgregg13 wrote:I assume the hypereutectic pistons would be better than the old cast pistons for a mild turbo application as long as detonation is eliminated and the fit is not too loose?


A bit better. The stock cast early pistons are shockingly fragile.

A good cheap turbo long block would be a good running late hyper short block with a carb head. This would drop compression (always a good thing with forced induction).

Don't know what EMS you will run, but knock-sensing is a good idea if you will not have forged pistons.
1994 F150, 4.9L/ZF 5 speed, C-Vic police driveshaft
EFI head w/mild port work, 3 angle valve job
1996 long block, stock pistons, ARP rod bolts
Stock cam, aluminum cam gear
Hedman header, full mandrel bent duals, crossover, super turbos
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #52 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:12 pm

Max_Effort wrote:Hyper is stronger than non-hyper cast pistons, but still weak compared to a forged.

I think hypereutectic is not as strong at low temps but as temperature rises they are actually stronger than a forging. But I forgot the crossover temperature.
If I were building a turbo engine I would use hypereutectic pistons. Plus the tighter operating clearances make for a much quieter engine, especially on start up.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #53 by 88F15088 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:37 am

I think I will go ahead and run the stock pistons unless you guys talk me out of it. I don't plan but for 6-8lbs of boost.

I am working on the heavy duty manifold right now, what would you guys recommend to cover the big hole in the top? I was going to cut out a metal plate and find exhaust gasket material to cut to shape and bolt it on.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #54 by 1986F150six » Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:32 pm


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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #55 by 88F15088 » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:16 pm

Thank you!

For those looking for a gasket, it looks like there's one included in the gasket sets for 1965 Galaxie 240 engines (and others).

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #56 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:54 pm

I'd weld it shut and leave an air gap between the two.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #57 by 88F15088 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:52 pm

I will make the blockoff plate and take it to be welded. I have not welded on cast iron before and don't want to practice on a critical part.

As for covering the EGR hole, I found a 3/4" plug fits well, so I went to an industrial supply shop and got a brass plug and iron plug, both with tapered threads. I am thinking the iron plug will handle the exhaust heat better. I may have the plug welded in place as well, to avoid any trouble in the future.

My machinist finished cleaning and fluxing my head, so I will begin cleaning up the ports tomorrow. I will mainly blend the bowl and throat areas, and clean up the casting flash a bit. Then I will polish the chambers. I am not going to go super in depth, since I want to have the head back to the machine shop next week to get a valve job and resurfaced.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #58 by benchracer » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:12 pm

Just tore down 1985 f150 300 pistons look just look yours it had a loose rocker arm.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #59 by Shorty » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:45 pm

[quote="88F15088"]I will make the blockoff plate and take it to be welded. I have not welded on cast iron before and don't want to practice on a critical part.

As for covering the EGR hole, I found a 3/4" plug fits well, so I went to an industrial supply shop and got a brass plug and iron plug, both with tapered threads. I am thinking the iron plug will handle the exhaust heat better. I may have the plug welded in place as well, to avoid any trouble in the future.

those manifolds are a good quality cast and weld quite nice when cleaned up. Use a good cast rod with a preheat, weld in short stitches and move around so the heat doesn't build up too much in one spot, and let it cool slow.
85 F150 on 78 bronco frame C6 np205 welded dana44 front, trussed posi nine inch rear. EFI exhaust manifolds into one 2 1/2" rolls on 35x12.5x15 Maxxis Trepador.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #60 by Phase3 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:01 pm

"those manifolds are a good quality cast and weld quite nice when cleaned up. Use a good cast rod with a preheat, weld in short stitches and move around so the heat doesn't build up too much in one spot, and let it cool slow."

I have successfully welded one of these manifolds doing just this. Only problem i had was it ended up warping at least .100 thousandths. Maybe bolt it down to something flat as well? I took mine and got it cut .050 and heated it while i bolted it to the head and it hasnt cracked
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #61 by 88F15088 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:47 pm

Phase3 wrote:Only problem i had was it ended up warping at least .100 thousandths. Maybe bolt it down to something flat as well?


When I get it welded I will bring the cylinder head with me and have it bolted to the head to prevent warping.

I've been working on cleaning up the ports a bit, mainly just blending the bowl and throat. Next I will polish the chambers and call it good.

Before
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After
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #62 by bubba22349 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 12:26 pm

You might also consider doing a little valve bowl porting and narrow the guides. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #63 by 88F15088 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:09 am

After polishing the chambers I am going to call it good. I don't want to spend a ton of time in this area since it is a stock rebuild. I want to have it put back together before Fall classes start.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #64 by 88F15088 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:28 am

Finished port:

DSC_0356.JPG


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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #65 by old28racer » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:24 pm

Just something to keep in mind. I have a 1994 EFI motor in my shop that I am rebuilding. The cast pistons & motor only had a few thousand miles on it when pulled from a farm truck ( fiber cam gear failure). I had my machine shop mag all 6 cast pistons & found two with hairline cracks. Like others have said detontaion is the number one killer of parts.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #66 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:33 am

stock pistons
cam gears
head gasket

Those are the weak links in these beloved engines. The good news is none of these failures are horribly expensive to repair.

P.S. Let's not forget the cracking of EFI era heads when they have been overheated. Unfortunately, that is a pricey repair.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #67 by 88F15088 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:17 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:P.S. Let's not forget the cracking of EFI era heads when they have been overheated. Unfortunately, that is a pricey repair.


Head magnafluxed OK, should be fine in that area.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #68 by sdiesel » Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:25 am

if not before mentioned, may I suggest a ceramic coat to the exhsust?
the manifolds will shrink.

ceramic coat obviously aids in mitigating this.
Mill the exhaust mating surface too.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #69 by 88F15088 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:10 am

Machinist reported spring heights for both intake and exhaust are 1.600" but a more popular size is 1.625"

What springs should I run?

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #70 by pmuller9 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:04 pm

Run the Comp 903-12 springs with stock intake retainers.
Hoping you have another set of stock intake retainers from another engine.
That should give you about 110 lbs on the seat and 225 lbs open.
Have your machinist check them if he has a spring checker.

What exhaust retainers was the 1.600" measured with?

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #71 by 88F15088 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:38 am

pmuller9 wrote:What exhaust retainers was the 1.600" measured with?


Exhaust rotators were removed and machinist was provided with 12 intake retainers.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #72 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:51 am

A height of 1.600 seems very short to me, especially if there was no valve shim under the retainer. (Stock installed height is 1.700 [1.67 - 1.73 is B/P tolerance]). Are the valves you are using shorter than stock valves? Compare the retainer groove heights on a stock valve and the ones you are using.
I like to set my heads up with a VSI shim under every spring, especially since I am not using positive exhaust valve rotaters, to promote rotation and reduce wear.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #73 by pmuller9 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:03 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:A height of 1.600 seems very short to me, especially if there was no valve shim under the retainer. (Stock installed height is 1.700 [1.67 - 1.73 is B/P tolerance])

This is an EFI head and an installed spring height around 1.600" is about right using the stock intake retainers.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #74 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:46 pm

Thanks for the correction Paul. I was thinking carbed head. Boy at 1.6 it doesn't give one a lot of room to capture much spring energy.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #75 by pmuller9 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:52 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Boy at 1.6 it doesn't give one a lot of room to capture much spring energy.

You are right about that and is the reason for installing the earlier 4.810" long valves or going to the 4.910" long Chevy valves.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #76 by 88F15088 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:15 pm

Got the head and HD manifold mounted. I have tried mocking up different ways the turbo could be mounted but I can't seem to find a way that would make it fit. Another thought I had was to use U-bends to locate the turbo up, almost to the point it will be level with or slightly above the upper intake manifold, similar to how this one is setup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhcPSfBhXhw

Any suggestions would be great.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kx555sk1h5f76 ... t.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m4si37k8rwonc ... 2.jpg?dl=0

Also, to make this day better, I mounted up my starter and realized the mistake I made when I measured for the oil return fitting...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bu9jzti6fm2au ... e.jpg?dl=0

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #77 by curts56 » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:39 am

Here are a few photos of the my U-bend setup:

Image
Image
Image

I elected to keep the turbo away from the intake manifold but it could easily be mounted closer if needed.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #78 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:40 am

That looks pretty and well thought out. I also like the metal finished and polished front end bits.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #79 by curts56 » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:02 am

Thanks FTF!

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #80 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:25 pm

Let me just add one more comment regarding the adjustment turnbuckle on the bottom of the alternator. I am using the very same method on my avatar drag car alternator to tighten the belt. Even using the same lower front cover bolt / stud. I have cracked two alternator cases (East Coast Auto Electric) so far. When I called ECAE to suggest their case was as weak as a potato chip they said I needed to add a back brace to the back of the alternator. So I added a back brace. I can't tell if you have an alt back brace but it may be a good idea. My race car engine is rigidly mounted in the chassis so it is subject to extreme vibes and that may be a factor, but probably not a bad idea nonetheless.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #81 by curts56 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:34 am

Sounds like a good idea. Do you have any photos of your back brace?

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #82 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:25 pm

curts56 wrote:Sounds like a good idea. Do you have any photos of your back brace?

Nope. But I can tell you it attaches to one of the motor mount bosses and one of the alternator studs in back. It is made up of two 1/8" straps and a connector bolt that holds them together. There is a slot in one strap so the alternator can be adjusted.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #83 by 88F15088 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:19 am

Curts, that setup looks very nice. Unfortunately, I think the HX35 I am running is bigger than your turbo, which is why I cannot get it to fit like yours. Has this been mounted in the truck? I have been mocking mine up just like how you have yours setup and it will not clear the frame rail or motor mount.

I have bought several different mandrel bent angles and think I can run from the HD manifold up, around, and to the front of the engine, setting the turbo right behind the accessory drive and slightly above the upper EFI intake manifold.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #84 by pmuller9 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:11 pm

88F15088 wrote:I have been mocking mine up just like how you have yours setup and it will not clear the frame rail or motor mount.

Have you changed to a low profile motor mount like the one shown?
Would that give you the room needed?

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #85 by 88F15088 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:32 am

pmuller9 wrote:Have you changed to a low profile motor mount like the one shown?
Would that give you the room needed?


I have a stock replacement installed. Is there a low profile one you recommend?

Even then, I have some 90* mandrel bends from Summit (similar to the one shown in Curts's photo) and when I mock it up to the HD manifold, it just slightly hits the frame rail. I'll see if I can get some better photos tomorrow.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #86 by curts56 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:02 am

There is a slot in one strap so the alternator can be adjusted.

Got it.

Has this been mounted in the truck?

No, but the motor mounts and cross member are attached to the block and I have a spare set of inner fender wells, so I've been able to check clearances without the engine installed.

What's the radius of the U/J-bend you are using? I used a Patriot (H7059) 2.5" J-bend with a 3" radius. I also fabricated a flange that mates directly with the flange on the manifold instead of using a donut gasket. That moves everything up a bit.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #87 by 88F15088 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:39 am

curts56 wrote:I used a Patriot (H7059) 2.5" J-bend with a 3" radius.


I am attempting to use a 3" diameter radius, which may be part of the issue. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wlk-41221

I think sizing down to a 2.5" bend could make it work, but I am still concerned with the size of the turbine housing clearing the frame and motor mount. I already have a 3-bolt flange that bolts to the HD manifold, but it is sized for a 3" diameter pipe.

What size turbo are you using? I am assuming it is a T3?

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #88 by pmuller9 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:58 am

curts56
What are you using for an motor mount?
Your mounts look different than the stock replacement.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #89 by curts56 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:19 am

I made my own motor mount brackets, similar to some FTF created (his look better!).

Image
Image

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #90 by curts56 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:26 am

What size turbo are you using? I am assuming it is a T3?


TO4B.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #91 by 88F15088 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:49 pm

Here's what I am working with:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n10yqtpvwy7ag ... 3.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z0n8uebzs0j2m ... 4.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lnrhbp9s1wd1i ... 5.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5a3lzvkz4h1v9 ... 6.jpg?dl=0

This gives me 3 options:
-Shoehorn the turbo where it is sitting in the photos and figure out how to make a heat shield for the motor mount
-Run piping towards the front of the engine, putting the turbo near the accessory drive
-Ditch the HD manifold and use the EFI manifolds for better flow (making the piping will be more difficult though)

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #92 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:06 am

The biggest thing that has kept me from building up a 300 turbo hot rod is the lack of a well designed stainless exhaust manifold.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #93 by Wesman07 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:04 pm

In-lines we trust

86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #94 by Wesman07 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:59 pm

I don’t remember who’s motor this is, but look at the motor mounts

Image
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #95 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:54 pm

Wesman07 wrote:I don’t remember who’s motor this is, but look at the motor mounts

Image

I sure would like to find out how that turbo motor ran.

Wesman, Those ell bends look nice, and reasonably priced. When I did the exhaust manifold on my champ car the long-legged SS mandrel bent seamless ells were $46 each. Sheesh!

I just can't bring myself to begin fabbing a well designed turbo exhaust - at least until I'm finished with the two car builds currently ongoing.
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #96 by Wesman07 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:18 pm

Yikes! How did you form the tube to meet the rectangle exhaust ports?
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #97 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:46 pm

Wesman07 wrote:Yikes! How did you form the tube to meet the rectangle exhaust ports?

I'm using a crossflow head with round ports. But on stock heads I've used either a hammerform to square them up or tap them into place in the flange.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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curts56
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #98 by curts56 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:16 am

I don’t remember who’s motor this is, but look at the motor mounts


That's a photo of the same engine/motor mounts above (post #89), but with an exhaust manifold from an Ak Miller draw through setup.

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curts56
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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #99 by curts56 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:36 am

I sure would like to find out how that turbo motor ran.


That's the Ak Miller draw through setup I was running on my previous 300. I planned on using it again and had it mocked up on my latest block.

Image

It ran well, but I was never happy with the inline boost controller. It also had a tendency to flood when starting if you weren't careful. I decided to nix that setup and go with a blow through system instead.

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Re: Turboing a stock 300, how to make it last?

Post #100 by 88F15088 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:01 am

Me and some friends were looking over the truck again today and it was pointed out that the turbo could be rear mounted and I could keep the long tube headers, which likely have better flow characteristics than the log manifold. I don't think this would be too difficult to do, but I am concerned with debris/water hitting the turbo (a shield could be made), the complications of adding a scavenging pump, and boost lag. I have also heard somewhere that long tube headers may not be the best for boost.

I am wondering if I can chop off the flange on the log manifold and have the turbo flange welded in its place, then begs the question where the wastegate would go if the turbo is bolted directly to the manifold.

I'm stuck on which route to take, looking for some of your opinions.

The HX35 is a physically large turbo which makes it harder to cram in the engine bay. A benefit of a rear mount is there is plenty of room to fit the turbo, air filter, etc.

If I am not mistaken, I think a GT35 has a smaller physical size and would be easier to fit in the engine bay, but I have heard good things about the low RPM spool of the HX35.

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