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Fresh Rebuilt 240

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sandboxer
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Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #1 by sandboxer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:00 pm

Opinions on a dilemma requested....
I just bought a freshly rebuilt 1966 240. No performance upgrades exept new seats in the heads.

What to do?
I need some hp...

Turbo...supercharger...
I have an H1C turbo and an M90 supercharger.
I also have a dual quad Clifford intake.

I don’t have forged pistons, big valves or cam.

Thoughts?

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #2 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:51 pm

What are you going to use it for / in?
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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #3 by sandboxer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:20 pm

1800lb homebuilt rod.
3 sp top loader
Ford 9” 3.50 locker

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #4 by Lazy JW » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:04 pm

Nitrous... :mrgreen: :thumbup: :nod:
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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #5 by sandboxer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:02 pm

I know this has been hashed over many times in other threads, so I don’t want to bore anyone, but...

Usually with an engine purchase the choice is a lot clearer if a lot of work needs to be done. I was going to buy the engine for the rods and head but now I don’t want to mess with it too much. I’ll tear it down anyway to see what’s in it and go from there.

May as well go with forged pistons, heavy cam, 10:1 compression, jr head, dual carbs and call it good:)

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #6 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:53 pm

A flat top piston with the Jr head will get you 10:1 compression.
You can do a custom piston or look through the forged piston for the Ford 302 in the Summit website.
It wouldn't hurt to have a few CCs in the piston top to get a compression ratio closer to 9.6
You will be looking at a cam with around a 232 .050" duration.
With that cam you are looking at running the 240 to 6500 rpm so you may want to use a solid lifter cam.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #7 by sandboxer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:05 pm

You and I had talked about a hydraulic roller. I would like a cam that I can put in the 300 if need be.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #8 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:10 pm

sandboxer wrote:You and I had talked about a hydraulic roller. I would like a cam that I can put in the 300 if need be.

Whatever cam you put in the 240 will run about 1000 rpm less in a 300.
Did we talk about having you find a single pair of 460 BBF roller lifters with the side bar to see what it takes to get them into the block?

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #9 by sandboxer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:22 pm

Not yet...I’ll have to find a pair

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #10 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:31 pm

You can run the stock 6.8" long rod or you have the option of the Molnar "H" beam 7.130" long rods for the Chevy 292 six so the piston weight can be reduced.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #11 by sandboxer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:42 pm

If I go that route then I’m working with the 300 right off the bat.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #12 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:56 pm

The 292 rods are too long for the 300 crankshaft.
The 240 rods that you have do work well on the 300 crank as I'm sure you already know.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #13 by Phase3 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:42 pm

Always liked the look of this supercharged setup in a rod. No intercooler but could run enough boost to make it sound good i bet. These pictures were online i dont know anything else about it.
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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #14 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:54 pm

I think that engine was in the Volksrod roadster built by Posey's.
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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #15 by sandboxer » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:50 am

Lazy JW wrote:Nitrous... :mrgreen: :thumbup: :nod:

I’ve never been on the bottle but it’s been tempting:)

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #16 by sandboxer » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:17 pm

E2B04A7A-BE93-419D-9A70-41EB8CB9C07C.jpeg
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:What are you going to use it for / in?
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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #17 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:48 pm

If that is for pulling I'd use a turbo. Short of that find a couple of tiny 2150 / 2100 carbs for te 2 x 4 intake and try them.
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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #18 by Lunatic Fringe » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:08 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
sandboxer wrote:You and I had talked about a hydraulic roller. I would like a cam that I can put in the 300 if need be.

Whatever cam you put in the 240 will run about 1000 rpm less in a 300.
Did we talk about having you find a single pair of 460 BBF roller lifters with the side bar to see what it takes to get them into the block?


Crower 460 roller lifters will work with no grinding , although you may have to install them in the block BEFORE putting the cam in. I have a set of Comps to test fit, but haven't had time yet.

I too can't wait for roller cams to be easier to get.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #19 by pmuller9 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:13 pm

Bullet Cams will make a billet roller for the 300 six.
Last time I talked to John Partridge it was $650 for a cam.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #20 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:56 pm

Lunatic Fringe wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:
sandboxer wrote:You and I had talked about a hydraulic roller. I would like a cam that I can put in the 300 if need be.

Whatever cam you put in the 240 will run about 1000 rpm less in a 300.
Did we talk about having you find a single pair of 460 BBF roller lifters with the side bar to see what it takes to get them into the block?


Crower 460 roller lifters will work with no grinding , although you may have to install them in the block BEFORE putting the cam in. I have a set of Comps to test fit, but haven't had time yet.

I too can't wait for roller cams to be easier to get.

HYDRAULIC 460 roller lifters?
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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #21 by Lunatic Fringe » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:00 pm

Oops, missed the hydraulic part.

Thanks for the info Paul.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #22 by sandboxer » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:36 pm

The difficult and interesting part of the equation is trying to figure out a cam that is small enough for a street rod, big enough to develop enough hp (given the right head) PLUS being to able to use for either NA or Turbo....
A compromise for sure, and maybe not possible.
I know I can’t have it all, but there must be a medium in there somewhere.

This rig is for the street. How much HP? As much as possible...

Excited to learn of JR head dyno results.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #23 by sandboxer » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:16 am

pmuller9 wrote:A flat top piston with the Jr head will get you 10:1 compression.
You can do a custom piston or look through the forged piston for the Ford 302 in the Summit website.
It wouldn't hurt to have a few CCs in the piston top to get a compression ratio closer to 9.6
You will be looking at a cam with around a 232 .050" duration.
With that cam you are looking at running the 240 to 6500 rpm so you may want to use a solid lifter cam.

I looked at Crower cams’ mechanical cam which has a 105* LSA. I’m not running race gas, just 94 octane, so I’m not sure about detonation.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #24 by Max_Effort » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:29 am

sandboxer wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:A flat top piston with the Jr head will get you 10:1 compression.
You can do a custom piston or look through the forged piston for the Ford 302 in the Summit website.
It wouldn't hurt to have a few CCs in the piston top to get a compression ratio closer to 9.6
You will be looking at a cam with around a 232 .050" duration.
With that cam you are looking at running the 240 to 6500 rpm so you may want to use a solid lifter cam.

I looked at Crower cams’ mechanical cam which has a 105* LSA. I’m not running race gas, just 94 octane, so I’m not sure about detonation.

The two crower solid mech cams look like typical circle track (or drag race) cams. I don't they would be "turbo friendly", you'd be blowing a lot of charge about the exhaust during overlap.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #25 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:55 am

sandboxer wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:A flat top piston with the Jr head will get you 10:1 compression.
You can do a custom piston or look through the forged piston for the Ford 302 in the Summit website.
It wouldn't hurt to have a few CCs in the piston top to get a compression ratio closer to 9.6
You will be looking at a cam with around a 232 .050" duration.
With that cam you are looking at running the 240 to 6500 rpm so you may want to use a solid lifter cam.

I looked at Crower cams’ mechanical cam which has a 105* LSA. I’m not running race gas, just 94 octane, so I’m not sure about detonation.


You would need a custom mechanical cam with around a 232 .050" duration and a 112 LSA for naturally aspirated and could also be used with a turbo depending on the exhaust manifold.

Are you still looking at a roller cam?

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #26 by sandboxer » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:12 am

Thanks gentlemen. I’ll call Crower today.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #27 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:26 am

You want valve lifts .550" or more with a 1.6 ratio rocker.
You lose some of that lift because of rocker arm clearance.

So you aren't going with a roller cam?

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #28 by sandboxer » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:31 am

pmuller9 wrote:You want valve lifts .550" or more with a 1.6 ratio rocker.
You lose some of that lift because of rocker arm clearance.

So you aren't going with a roller cam?

I’m torn. Budget is tight and while I don’t mind spending the money, I don’t want to do it twice. I’m waffling between a solid and hydraulic roller. Solid will take me to 7,000, but as we discussed before, I don’t want to spend much time there. I’d like to keep my redline at 6,500 with a bit in reserve.

You have sent me some terrific cam options in the recent past so I’ll call the companies today to see what can be done within my budgetary limits.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #29 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:44 am

I wasn't sure when you mentioned calling Crower because they do not have roller cams for the 300 six.
For what you are doing here a flat tappet solid would work well.

You would need to fit either the hydraulic or mechanical roller lifters in the block before you could decide on which one if you go the roller route.
That would be Bullet Cams for a roller.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #30 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:54 am

Am I missing something here? I have yet to see a hydraulic roller cam in a 300. Has somebody done this? Link?
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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #31 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:05 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Am I missing something here? I have yet to see a hydraulic roller cam in a 300. Has somebody done this? Link?

AFAIK no one has used a hydraulic roller cam in a 300 yet.
That day will come.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #32 by sandboxer » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:17 pm

Is that unusual somehow? Is the mechanical roller the obvious choice? I suppose for that useage the answer is pretty obvious...
Still trying to figure it out:)
Talked to Crower today for the mechanical cam.
Will order one up as per pmuller9 specs.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #33 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:58 pm

sandboxer wrote:Is that unusual somehow? Is the mechanical roller the obvious choice? I suppose for that useage the answer is pretty obvious...
Still trying to figure it out:)
Talked to Crower today for the mechanical cam.
Will order one up as per pmuller9 specs.

The only ones that have used a roller cam in the 300 six was for racing where the rpm, ramp rate and lobe lift dictated a solid lifter.
Someday someone will put a hydraulic roller cam in a high performance 300 street engine.

Make sure before you give Crower the OK to grind (and your credit card) that the spec numbers are really close to what you want.
Please post them here also.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #34 by bubba22349 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:09 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Am I missing something here? I have yet to see a hydraulic roller cam in a 300. Has somebody done this? Link?


In talking with "Thad a site Mod" a number of years back he had said that he had engineered a Hydraulic Roller Cam set up for his 300 and that he might be able to lend it to me to copy the cam profile for my project. Will see if I can find the posts but I haven't seen him on the site since June 24, 2014. :nod:
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I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #35 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:28 pm

bubba22349 wrote:
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Am I missing something here? I have yet to see a hydraulic roller cam in a 300. Has somebody done this? Link?


In talking with "Thad a site Mod" a number of years back he had said that he had engineered a Hydraulic Roller Cam set up for his 300 and that he might be able to lend it to me to copy the cam profile for my project. Will see if I can find the posts but I haven't seen him on the site since June 24, 2014. :nod:

Just call Bullet cams and order a roller cam with the profile you need.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #36 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:38 am

I think the larger issue is getting a viable retention device to position the hydraulic lifters.
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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #37 by sandboxer » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:19 pm

Excuse my ignorance but would a mechanical roller lifter be any different?

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #38 by bubba22349 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:06 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I think the larger issue is getting a viable retention device to position the hydraulic lifters.


I believe he said that he used the stock Ford 460 Hydrolic Rollers as to the retention device that's what I can't rember. :nod:

Edited in checking this out some more found out I was wrong as there weren't any stock 460 roller cam engines built by Ford. There are many retrofit roller cams and lifters made for the 429 / 460's though.
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I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #39 by Max_Effort » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:24 pm

bubba22349 wrote:
THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I think the larger issue is getting a viable retention device to position the hydraulic lifters.


I believe he said that he used the stock Ford 460 Hydrolic Rollers as to the retention device that's what I can't rember. :nod:


I’ve never seen a 460 with factory hydraulic roller lifters. Do they exist?

Retro fit hydraulic roller lifters are availible, but they are a PITA and the pushrod situation is a compromise at best.

I suppose a taller lifter body and higher pushrod seat isn’t an issue with a 300. Are the link bars the correct dimension?

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #40 by bubba22349 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:24 pm

:bang: yep chock up that above statement to my bad memory there weren't any stock roller cam 460's Fords built. So it would have to be a retrofit roller lifter (of which there are many available see below link) and cam. I have searched through "Thads" posts couldn't find the info on his 300 Hydrolic roller setup, also looked at my PMs but they don't go back that far this would have been somtime around 2010 to 2012. The link bar retrofit 460 Hydrolic lifters look like they would be good canadates for adapting to the 300 blocks. :thumbup: :nod:

https://www.summitracing.com/oh/search/ ... lic-roller
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I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #41 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:40 pm

I see a couple of issues with the aftermarket hydraulic roller lifters for 460s.
First is the height. They look taller than conventional roller lifters. Will they fit past the side cover attachment bosses?

Second is cost. At $500 plus another $1000 for a custom roller hydraulic cam and pushrods and bronze distributor gear what is the cost / benefit ratio?
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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #42 by bubba22349 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:48 pm

Yes that wouldn't be so good I did find several sets of Hydrolic Rollers available at $120.99 though. https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Pairs-Hydrau ... y8&vxp=mtr

So with a 600.00 cam it wouldn't be so bad to try out the 300 swap experiment. Is there much difference in the cam ramps between a Stolid and a Hydrolic Roller Cam? :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #43 by Max_Effort » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:57 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I see a couple of issues with the aftermarket hydraulic roller lifters for 460s.
First is the height. They look taller than conventional roller lifters. Will they fit past the side cover attachment bosses?

Second is cost. At $500 plus another $1000 for a custom roller hydraulic cam and pushrods and bronze distributor gear what is the cost / benefit ratio?


They are taller and the pushrod seat is higher...

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #44 by sandboxer » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:42 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:I see a couple of issues with the aftermarket hydraulic roller lifters for 460s.
First is the height. They look taller than conventional roller lifters. Will they fit past the side cover attachment bosses?

Second is cost. At $500 plus another $1000 for a custom roller hydraulic cam and pushrods and bronze distributor gear what is the cost / benefit ratio?

Good point. I can get a Crower mechanical kit for 480$

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #45 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:01 pm

Let's step back and take a deep breath.

One thing that makes the 300 so special to me is its simplicity of design. I sometimes describe it as six Briggs and Stratton motors in a row, because it is such a basic engine design. So why would you want to overthink it with Overhead Cam Head, roller cams and such. If you have a valid need for a roller cam, like you want to reduce motoring friction for optimum fuel economy (like the auto companies need to do) it makes sense to use one as part of an extensive engine upgrade. But with the stock U-flow head most performance street builds do not gain enough of a performance advantage with a roller for it to make sense cost-wise. My drag cars have solid roller cams; my street/strip cars have hydraulic flat tappet cams. Properly maintained a high lift flat tappet - hydraulic or solid - can go 50K miles plus. Aside from not having to periodically adjust the valve lash on a solid roller I do not see the value of a hydraulic roller cam.
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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #46 by pmuller9 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:18 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:Aside from not having to periodically adjust the valve lash on a solid roller I do not see the value of a hydraulic roller cam.

I can think of two reason right away.
For a given cam lobe the Hydraulic roller will allow a higher compression ratio than the Solid roller when being use in a street engine that is restricted to pump gas.
Secondly the Hydraulic cam is easier on the valve seats.

Billet Roller cam and Hydraulic roller lifters for the 300 six is around $1100. Less with solid roller lifters.

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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #47 by Max_Effort » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:10 pm

The primary reason I prefer to retrofit a street engine to hydraulic roller is reliability. To not “roll the dice” on cam break in. This is especially true for engines that aren’t going to be started and broken in very soon after assy. Particularly for engines that are notoriously bad on break-in with performance cams and increased spring loads, ie BBC. However, even on engine platforms that easily accommodate hydraulic roller retrofit, there is considerable added expense. I don’t use any $120. eBay import lifters, or sadi cam cores either.

pmuller9
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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #48 by pmuller9 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:40 pm

FWIW we quit using needle bearing roller lifters on our BBC racing engines and switched to .937" keyed Isky EZ-RollMax lifters.
Expensive but after broken needle grit damaged pistons and cylinder walls...

Will be doing the same for the next Late Model SBC engine.

sandboxer
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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #49 by sandboxer » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:48 pm

I love the discourse. Thanks for all the thought food. I’m bouncing around like crazy on what to do, and in among all the questions there is dwell time (rod length), valve size, area under the lift curve, useable rpm, exhaust size, intake runners, etc.

I think that the 112* makes a lot of sense with the 240 rod and valve size I want to use. The area under the curve is interesting, but how critical (bang for buck) is it for my needs? In other words, roller/non-roller...

I think I’m going to mic up my 300 crank and put it in the fresh block if it checks out with what the block gives me.

I appreciate the deep breath FTF. It makes sense to keep things in perspective. One can’t help but be inspired by Duntov though:)

pmuller9
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Re: Fresh Rebuilt 240

Post #50 by pmuller9 » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:59 pm

You don't need a roller cam for what you are doing.
If you do the high rev 240 you should use a flat tappet solid lifter cam. The solid lifters have the option of a small oiling hole on the lifter face.
If you do the 300 crank with the 240 rods then you can use a flat tappet hydraulic lifter cam because your rpm will be lower than the 240 and the valve spring pressure can be a lot less.

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