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So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

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48kenworth
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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #51 by 48kenworth » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:57 am

Yes it's a 500cfm edelbrock with annular boosters.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #52 by pmuller9 » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:07 am

What is the initial timing with the vacuum advance disconnected?

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #53 by 48kenworth » Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:25 pm

pmuller9 wrote:What is the initial timing with the vacuum advance disconnected?

12 degrees. I've tried moving vacuum advance to a full manifold source to increase idle timing. That made it worse.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #54 by 48kenworth » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:18 pm

Well crap! The issue may be starting to surface. I have two separate intermittent lifter ticks now. I know I ran the overhead right because I went through it twice with the tappet (lifter) cover off so I could be absolutely certain I sent preload on the base circle of the lobes. #1 intake goes to ticking and a get a faint miss, I have not tracked down the second offender yet but when that one starts ticking the engine will spit back through the carb just a tad on a free rev. This just started by the way after probably 2 hours of run time.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #55 by xctasy » Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:23 pm

Make sure you've set the preload right. Dry lifter noises soon go away.

Make sure your ignition coil is good and new.

The Edelbrock 500 1403 most probably needs a spacer under it. Most who tune these carbs find they are not good under large fuel pump pressures, but a failing fuel pump will also make it behave poorly.

Strong duration in the 50 thou lift makes the 500 hard to tune down low. Especially if it has the short venturi boosters. Erratic air fuel ratios are common, and some extension of the venturis might be required.

This is a factor in all American single 2 and 4bbl carbs where the air speed and cam duration is high...they are touchy.

This is why most high horsepower six in line engine builders like to persue the bigger carbs. A few things on six big cylinders sucking through a restricted low cfm carb. 500 cfm means the secondary barrels are being used rather a lot, and the tiny primaries are still having to deliver to six cylinders.

390 Holley 4-bbls on in line sixes, 750 4bbl Carters on 400 cubic inch Ford engines. They all require extended booster venturis because air speed becomes critical with increased cam intensity.

A 1/4 or 1/2 or 1" spacer normally helps a little but sometimes, the boosters require some JB Weld, and some extension with thin-wall brass tubing that fit over the booster and extended the length down below the "vena contracta" area.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #56 by Max_Effort » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:01 am

The #1 problem with brand new lifters having issues, is debris inside. They are trash collectors. The second is QC ..

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #57 by CNC-Dude » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:38 am

Max_Effort wrote:The #1 problem with brand new lifters having issues, is debris inside. They are trash collectors. The second is QC ..

That is absolutely true!
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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #58 by 48kenworth » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:18 pm

The carb is the 1901 with annular boosters and does have a 1 inch spacer under it already to help with heat soak. I've tuned on it quite a bit and the fact is it behaves very similarly to every thing I have ever seen/driven/rode in that had high compression and a long duration camshaft. The lifter issue would be easy to take care of and as it sits the pick up is very fun to flog on but in the beginning of this I was concerned about driveability and my concerns have been realized. I suspect the stock cam will be going back in and I will have a very nice 240 head for sale soon. Lesson learned.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #59 by pmuller9 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:30 pm

Before you do anything else, do a compression check to be sure the valve train is OK.
The 140H cam does not act that way if all else is good.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #60 by 48kenworth » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:11 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Before you do anything else, do a compression check to be sure the valve train is OK.
The 140H cam does not act that way if all else is good.


I'll check it this evening after work if I remember to carry the stuff home. I had 145-155 with the stock cam.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #61 by Max_Effort » Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:11 pm

48Kenworth, I would suggest you take the time to sort it out. The 140H isn’t a very big cam and 9:1 isn’t much compression. Both are less than many stock muscle cars had from the factory.

I’ve built many hot rod engines with 10:1 to 11:1 compression, cams in the 240 to 250 degree at .050” intake duration that have good mannners on the street and explosive performance.

I’m not a 300 six guru, but others on this site are and their experience is that 300’s and cams with 230 degrees intake duration run just fine on the street.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #62 by 48kenworth » Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:54 pm

#1: 140 4 turns to achieve max pressure
#2: 135 4 turns
#3: 135 5 turns
#4: 135 4 turns
#5: 138 4 turns
#6: 125 4 turns

I'm not seeing anything just jumping out here as cause for it to lope so badly at idle. The numbers are lower than it was stock but I kind of expected that.

Edit: I retested #6 wet and compression jumped to 145 in 4 turns. So rings should be the issue there. This doesn't surprise me as it has been my experience #6 in an inline tends to run the hottest.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #63 by MechRick » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:16 pm

Does it happen after the engine is warm? I'm wondering if the valves are sticking in the guides when warm.

You might try a running compression test after the engine is good and warm.
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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #64 by 48kenworth » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:23 pm

pmuller9 wrote:The 140H cam does not act that way if all else is good.


So we are all clear and remove any subjectiveness from the conversation, the driveability issues are all below 1300ish rpm and include. Poor cold engine manners ( think Rich/ lean cycling), very low power when attempting to engage the clutch at idle with my 2.75 rear gears. This thing would be fun on the highway but would be miserable to use picking up square bales from the field.
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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #65 by 48kenworth » Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:25 pm

MechRick wrote:Does it happen after the engine is warm? I'm wondering if the valves are sticking in the guides when warm.

You might try a running compression test after the engine is good and warm.


Warm operation is actually dramatically better than cold, no where near good enough to idle along with a load.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #66 by pmuller9 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:05 pm

48kenworth wrote:#1: 140 4 turns to achieve max pressure
#2: 135 4 turns
#3: 135 5 turns
#4: 135 4 turns
#5: 138 4 turns
#6: 125 4 turns

I'm not seeing anything just jumping out here as cause for it to lope so badly at idle. The numbers are lower than it was stock but I kind of expected that.

Edit: I retested #6 wet and compression jumped to 145 in 4 turns. So rings should be the issue there. This doesn't surprise me as it has been my experience #6 in an inline tends to run the hottest.

The DCR is about the same as stock so the pressure should be at least as high as stock.
Something doesn't seem right like the cam is installed retarded.

Where did you set the intake lobe center when the cam was installed?

It was supposed to be at 106 degrees ATDC.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #67 by 48kenworth » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:18 pm

The cam card said 108 degrees. Actually came out to 109 degrees installed straight up so I left it be.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #68 by pmuller9 » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:24 pm

48kenworth wrote:So we are all clear and remove any subjectiveness from the conversation, the driveability issues are all below 1300ish rpm and include. Poor cold engine manners ( think Rich/ lean cycling), very low power when attempting to engage the clutch at idle with my 2.75 rear gears. This thing would be fun on the highway but would be miserable to use picking up square bales from the field.

My last engine had a 232/232 .050" duration 288 advertised duration cam with a 650 cfm carb.
No problem breaking the tires loose at 1200 rpm in second gear by rolling into the throttle (T18 tranny).
165 psi cylinder pressure at 2000 ft elevation with a 7.2 DCR

The 300 six engines with cams in the 220* .050" duration area have plenty of torque from 1000 rpm and can idle down to 650 rpm.
The engines do not surge from an idle and there is no blow back through the carb.
The two that went to MOAB for hill climbing did not report any problems from an idle.

What rocker arms are you running?

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #69 by 48kenworth » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:04 am

I am still running the 1.73 stamped rocker, although I did dig out the stockers. It will be easy enough to swap the stock rockers onto it. I also figure if I do come to yanking the cam back out I will at least recheck the degree on it first to verify I didn't make a mistake the first time.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #70 by pmuller9 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:05 am

Try the stock rocker arms.
When you have the rockers off put a dial indicator on #1 intake pushrod and rotate the crank clockwise till the lifter comes up .050"
The timing mark on the harmonic balancer should be at 1 degree BTDC if the cam's intake lobe center is at 109 degrees ATDC.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #71 by guhfluh » Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:05 pm

I haven't followed this from the beginning, but question the cam choice for a low rpm field truck with 2.73 gears.

I agree with going back to the stock rockers.

I would also try tuning the carb and timing more. Give it manifold heat if it wants it.

My cam is advanced 4* with Cloyes gears, but no degreeing done. I have 3.73 gears. Light throttle driving below 1100 is not fun a lot of times. Running richer helps this out A LOT. Chevy 1.75 rockers makes it a lot worse. Running ported vacuum seems to help some, as the throttle isn't as touchy because it doesn't have as much timing.
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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #72 by 48kenworth » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:08 pm

Ok. So far I owe an apology and a thanks to those that have stuck with me. I repair diesels for a living but this isn't the same. I must have fudged pretty bad on my degreeing, even alotting for balancer slippage the cam is very retarded. The mark shows 14 degrees on the balancer. So I guess the question is what in the crap can I do about it??

Edit: wait that would make the cam advanced. So in conclusive at this point. Still looks like I will be pulling it apart and degreeing the cam more carefully.
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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #73 by guhfluh » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:15 pm

Verify TDC with a piston stop and re-mark the balancer.
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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #74 by pmuller9 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:30 pm

Each tooth on the crank timing gear is 12.4 degrees so it is possible the gear set is one tooth off.
In any case the cam timing needs to be redone and the timing tab versus the mark on the harmonic balancer needs to verified with the piston at TDC.

How did you zero the degree wheel?
Did you use a piston stop or a dial indicator on the center of the piston top?

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #75 by guhfluh » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:45 pm

By the way, that looks advanced...depending what is true TDC on the balancer.
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240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #76 by 48kenworth » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:54 pm

guhfluh wrote:By the way, that looks advanced...depending what is true TDC on the balancer.

Yea I edited my post after I scyfered on it for a minute.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #77 by 48kenworth » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:57 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Each tooth on the crank timing gear is 12.4 degrees so it is possible the gear set is one tooth off.
In any case the cam timing needs to be redone and the timing tab versus the mark on the harmonic balancer needs to verified with the piston at TDC.

How did you zero the degree wheel?
Did you use a piston stop or a dial indicator on the center of the piston top?


I zeroed the wheel with a piston stop. Did my best at the time to keep it at zero when I assembled the timing cover and balancer. Timing marks showed 2 before tdc when I got it together.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #78 by pmuller9 » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:34 pm

From what you are telling us about your procedure I don't see how the cam timing would be that far off.

Just another double check.
The #1 exhaust lifter is .050" from closing at the same spot where the intake lifter is .050" up as it starts to open.
Would you mind putting a dial indicator on the end of the #1 exhaust pushrod and see when the lifter is .050" from the setting back down on the heal of the cam.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #79 by Max_Effort » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:14 pm

Plenty can go wrong. Degree wheel moves, the pointer moves, the dial indicator or lifter sticks, etc...
I know, it’s all happened to me more than once... I’m always double checking everything before putting the tools away.

One thing I like are the degree wheels that mount onto crank sockets. Greatly reduces any chance of moving the degree wheel.

I would like to find one of these Erson Pro wheels. It shows on the website, but I think it’s discontinued.
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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #80 by 48kenworth » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:41 pm

At the same spot the #1 ext is at .105 lift. At .050 on the down side of the ext lobe the timing marks show 2 atdc.

Edit: I checked it coming from both sides of the lobe, aka rolling backwards up to .050 and going all the way over the lobe to .050 and got the same thing.
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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #81 by 48kenworth » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:47 pm

Cam card for your viewing pleasure..
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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #82 by pmuller9 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:06 pm

Thanks for the cam card.
It shows the exhaust .050" closing point at 1 degree BTDC (Same as -1 ATDC) and you are showing it at 2 ATDC which is close.
You should then show the intake lifter .050" lift point right at TDC taking the 3 degree shift into account.

Please check both one more time.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #83 by Max_Effort » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:11 pm

Did you check all events the first time? Timing at .050” open and close for intake and exhaust? Something is not adding up if the cam is ground to the card specs. Time to get a degree wheel back on and go through all the timing events.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #84 by 48kenworth » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:22 pm

Max_Effort wrote:Did you check all events the first time? Timing at .050” open and close for intake and exhaust? Something is not adding up if the cam is ground to the card specs. Time to get a degree wheel back on and go through all the timing events.


Unfortunately I just zipped through the #1 intake centerline while I was taking my frustrations out on a few cans of coors. Looks like I should have taken the process a little more seriously the first time.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #85 by 48kenworth » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:27 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Thanks for the cam card.
It shows the exhaust .050" closing point at 1 degree BTDC (Same as -1 ATDC) and you are showing it at 2 ATDC which is close.
You should then show the intake lifter .050" lift point right at TDC taking the 3 degree shift into account.

Please check both one more time.


At this point it seems the best course of action would be to tear it down to the cam gears and run through the entire cycle to get the whole picture of what's happening here. I'll document the .050 specs for both intake and exhaust and post them up. Something is screwy here and I should have caught it the first time.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #86 by pmuller9 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:29 pm

48kenworth wrote:At this point it seems the best course of action would be to tear it down to the cam gears and run through the entire cycle to get the whole picture of what's happening here. I'll document the .050 specs for both intake and exhaust and post them up. Something is screwy here and I should have caught it the first time.

Sounds like a good plan.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #87 by guhfluh » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:29 pm

Yeah, I'm confused. First you said exhaust at .105", then .050", then ICL. I'd remeasure it all a few times to be sure.
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240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #88 by 48kenworth » Thu Jul 11, 2019 7:49 pm

guhfluh wrote:Yeah, I'm confused. First you said exhaust at .105", then .050", then ICL. I'd remeasure it all a few times to be sure.


I worded it poorly. At the mark where the intake should be at .050 lift it is at .105 lift. I took half a day off tomorrow to deal with this. We should have solid answers by noon central daylight time.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #89 by 48kenworth » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:11 pm

Intake opens
15 tdc

Intake closes
35 abdc

Exhaust opens
43 bbdc

Exhaust closes
4 atdc

Checked it three times, each time was within 1 degree.
Guy at Schneider said send it back. He was very helpful, I gave him the numbers I came up with and he explained to me how my engine runs spot on. He suspects I received a 288 cam that was ground wrong.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #90 by drag-200stang » Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:49 pm

Good on you for sticking it out. :thumbup:
This is another good example of why you must all way degree .
I hope that they are sending new lifters with that new cam.
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Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #91 by 48kenworth » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:09 pm

There is more to it now. I got the cam out..... even being wrong I doubt they will warranty it.
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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #92 by Max_Effort » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:56 pm

That's an unusual grind 230/227. ICL of 100, ECL of 105, 78 degrees of overlap.

How was the cam broken in? What lube, oil, RPM?

With that unusual grind, they might have ground through the hardened layer of the cam core. Especially if they used the core that is meant for 4 degrees retarded.

Obviously that lifter stopped turning (rotating) but we don't know when. Not turning from the beginning or after it was well into failure.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #93 by 48kenworth » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:46 pm

They asked for pictures. Said it may still be warranty.

It was broken in with normal 10w30 along with the additive and assembly lube Schneider sent, fired the engine and as soon as it got oil pressure it went to 3 grand and was gradually fluctuated from 1500 to 3000 for 30 solid minutes. The schnied rep seemed satisfied with the procedure I used. We shall see where this goes now.

This is starting to feel like a soap opra....

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #94 by drag-200stang » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:04 pm

Pictures can be deceiving but that lifter looks like part of the bottom is broke off and not worn , no ? :(
Can you show us more pic of cam and other lifters.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
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best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #95 by Max_Effort » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:24 pm

48kenworth wrote:They asked for pictures. Said it may still be warranty.

It was broken in with normal 10w30 along with the additive and assembly lube Schneider sent, fired the engine and as soon as it got oil pressure it went to 3 grand and was gradually fluctuated from 1500 to 3000 for 30 solid minutes. The schnied rep seemed satisfied with the procedure I used. We shall see where this goes now.

This is starting to feel like a soap opra....


It sucks, but it happens...

I think you get a WTY cam.

However before putting together. I would flush out the the lifter bores and oil pan. I’m hoping because it’s a six and not a V8, there aren’t flakes of camshaft metal in the piston skirts.

When installing new cam, Id make sure all the lifters are rotating when the engine is turned over. If there isn’t enough taper on the lobes, or the cam isn’t sitting in the correct position, the lifter won’t turn.

Lube the cam with a paste/grease type cam lube and then use Driven BR oil for break in and no other additive. And use 1.6 rocker for break-in.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #96 by pmuller9 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:03 pm

Which valve springs did you use?

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #97 by 48kenworth » Fri Jul 12, 2019 10:15 pm

I used the valve springs Schneider sent me as per their instruction. If they do warranty the cam I will likely use break in oil for the next one unless Schneider recommends against it, I doubt they would though.
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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #98 by bubba22349 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:27 pm

Hi 48kenworth, from your above picture it looks as though the camshaft damage might of been caused by the cam moving excessively. :bang: I suspect that the cam spacer / wedding ring wasn't transferred over from the old camshaft during the new cams installation (see below link for an idea of what they look like). Both the thrust plate and spacer ring need to be saved from the old camshaft for reuse with any replacement camshaft. Without both this spacer and thrust plate being installed the camshafts lobes won't be positioned in the block correctly and or the cam can also walk back and forth plus the cams timing gear has nothing to tighten against. Unfortunately this problem is quite common with some first timers working on these Ford six'es, with the this spacer ring gets left on the old camshaft during a cam change. Be sure to check out the cam thrust plate for any damage also i.e. Scoring deep wear. Sorry for your troubles. :nod:

This is a small block 200 six cam spacer drawing, a 240 / 300 big six is going to look like it but dimensions will be different.
viewtopic.php?f=106&t=77559
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #99 by 48kenworth » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:05 pm

bubba22349 wrote:Hi 48kenworth, from your above picture it looks as though the camshaft damage might of been caused by the cam moving excessively. :bang: I suspect that the cam spacer / wedding ring wasn't transferred over from the old camshaft during the new cams installation (see below link for an idea of what they look like). Both the thrust plate and spacer ring need to be saved from the old camshaft for reuse with any replacement camshaft. Without both this spacer and thrust plate being installed the camshafts lobes won't be positioned in the block correctly and or the cam can also walk back and forth plus the cams timing gear has nothing to tighten against. Unfortunately this problem is quite common with some first timers working on these Ford six'es, with the this spacer ring gets left on the old camshaft during a cam change. Be sure to check out the cam thrust plate for any damage also i.e. Scoring deep wear. Sorry for your troubles. :nod:

This is a small block 200 six cam spacer drawing, a 240 / 300 big six is going to look like it but dimensions will be different.
https://www.fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?f=106&t=77559


It was my first time handling a Ford six cam, truth is I was only lucky to catch the ring you mentioned. I did install it but I could have easily missed it. This was only one lobe on the cam, the other 11, fuel pump eccentric, and distributor gear all look perfect.

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Re: So I have a plan but now im Second guessing myself.

Post #100 by bubba22349 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:47 pm

That's good then that spacer ring wasn't the cause. With only damage to the one lobe that is unusual. Did it look like there was good oiling on that lifter and cam lobe? I do think they will warrantee out that cam then, best of luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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