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Engine is back

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68Flareside240
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Re: Engine is back

Post #51 by 68Flareside240 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:08 pm

Thanks Mr. Paul. Figured $12.99 was cheap insurance. Ordering the ARP studs, retainers, and locks. Currently in more prep work on the valve cover, fuel pump, pulleys, brackets, etc. Got a cool plan for the motors appearance, can't wait til it's done.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #52 by 68Flareside240 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:55 pm

Finally got all my parts and tools in to swap the springs and retainers. Noticed on the first cylinder something seems off with valve stem height. These are Comp 942 springs and comp 768 retainers. The exhaust valve seems to be sitting 1/16" lower, which using the same spring and retainers means the spring is more compressed. I left my caliper at home so no way to check height yet but this doesn't seem right at all.

Image
Image

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Re: Engine is back

Post #53 by pmuller9 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:28 pm

Take an intake valve and an exhaust valve out and measure the valve lengths.
Both should measure 4.810"
It looks like the later 4.750" long exhaust valves got mixed in with the early 4.810" intake valves.

Did any of the stock valves get replaced?

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68Flareside240
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Re: Engine is back

Post #54 by 68Flareside240 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:52 am

These were the valves that were in the head when I got it. I knew it had some head work in the past, so it's highly likely the exhaust valves may have been replaced. I don't recall seeing this before I pulled the old springs and rotators, but then again I don't recall explicitly looking. Of course all of my teardown picture I can't see the valvetrain that closely. Comparing the old springs, the intake and its retainer is at the exact same overall height as the shorter exhaust spring and rotator. I will remember to take my dial caliper when I go this evening. Seems like it's always one step forward, two steps back with this thing.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #55 by pmuller9 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:41 am

68Flareside240 wrote:Seems like it's always one step forward, two steps back with this thing.

Finding and fixing EXISTING problems is part of the rebuild process and is always a step forward.
Sometimes you have to do a certain amount of assembly to find them.
Keep up the good work!

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68Flareside240
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Re: Engine is back

Post #56 by 68Flareside240 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:51 am

Ha yeah that's true. Just kinda frustrating since I have finally made some good progress, and starting to see this project come together. At least I can say that I have learned a tremendous amount with each problem I have ran into. In the event that my exhaust valves are 4.750", are these the valves that I would be looking at? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mel- ... /make/ford

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Re: Engine is back

Post #57 by pmuller9 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:25 am

Yes
Those are the Stellite valves which stand up better to higher temps and unleaded fuels.

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68Flareside240
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Re: Engine is back

Post #58 by 68Flareside240 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:37 am

Good deal. Would I need to take the head back to the shop and have them install the valve, or should I just lap them in place and check the height?

I also found the Enginetech V1633S which is also a Stellite valve and 1/2 the price of the melling. Are these worth a count or should I just go with Melling?

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Re: Engine is back

Post #59 by pmuller9 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:59 am

I've used Enginetech parts before without any problems.
They should work fine for what you are doing.
I would just lap them in after checking valve stem height.

This is assuming the valve length is the problem.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #60 by 68Flareside240 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:30 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
This is assuming the valve length is the problem.


Indeed. I couldn't think what else it could be though. We will find out this evening.

In other news I got a new tag on the renewal today. Couldn't believe it wasn't already taken
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Re: Engine is back

Post #61 by pmuller9 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:51 pm

How perfect is that?
Nice!

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Re: Engine is back

Post #62 by 1986F150six » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:03 pm

68Flareside240 wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:
This is assuming the valve length is the problem.


Indeed. I couldn't think what else it could be though. We will find out this evening.

In other news I got a new tag on the renewal today. Couldn't believe it wasn't already taken
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That license plate is great! Excellent! :thumbup:

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Re: Engine is back

Post #63 by 68Flareside240 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:00 pm

Image

Intake on left, exhaust on right. Intake measures 4.740", exhaust is 4.745". As you can see, the keeper location is further down the valve stem. Which would explain why the spring would be more compressed but doesn't explain why the same length valves sit in different positions in the head. Gotta feeling this is worse than I thought.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #64 by pmuller9 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:16 pm

The valve job was not done correctly.
There may have been exhaust valve seat inserts installed.
The intake valve seats need to be done first so the exhaust valve seat can be cut to the same level.
The top of the valve stems need to be very close to the same height.

Also those are the wrong valves for that head.
Stud mount rocker arm heads (pre 1985) use the 4.810" long valves.

This is an opportunity.

What is the installed intake valve spring height with the present set of parts?

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Re: Engine is back

Post #65 by 68Flareside240 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:27 pm

That's what I was afraid of. That was the only thing that could explain the discrepancy I was seeing, in my mind. Exhaust on number two looking like 1.600", intake 1.690". :cry: :cry:

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Re: Engine is back

Post #66 by pmuller9 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:34 pm

68Flareside240 wrote:That's what I was afraid of. That was the only thing that could explain the discrepancy I was seeing, in my mind. Exhaust on number two looking like 1.600", intake 1.690". :cry: :cry:

Yep, that would cause the problem.
New valves should fix the problem but you now have the option of getting larger valves from SI valves.
They carry the 4.810" long 1.94" intake and the 1.60" exhaust valves.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #67 by 68Flareside240 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:53 pm

So best case, I buy new 4.810 valves, they will still have to do a new seat job correct?
Using the Erson 270101, planning on Offy C, Edelbrock 500 manual choke, hedman( or comparable) headers with probable 2.5 duals, would the SI valves be worth the added expense? I mean if they have to be machined anyway, go larger?

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Re: Engine is back

Post #68 by pmuller9 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:46 am

68Flareside240 wrote: Exhaust on number two looking like 1.600", intake 1.690".

stock intake valve diameter is 1.780" and the exhaust is 1.559"
I don't know what valves those are but certainly not correct and need to be replaced.
That means there is no extra expense in getting oversized valves since both intake and exhaust valves need to be replaced anyway.
The larger valves gives you the chance to get the valve job done correctly where the valve seats are all at the same depth from the head surface so the valve stem tips are at the same height.

You need a machinist that you can trust to get the job done correctly.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #69 by 68Flareside240 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:51 am

Those were installed spring height, not diameter. I didn't measure intake but exhaust was 1.559" diameter

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Re: Engine is back

Post #70 by pmuller9 » Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:54 am

68Flareside240 wrote:Those were installed spring height, not diameter. I didn't measure intake but exhaust was 1.559" diameter

OK, I must be tired at the end of a long day LOL.
You will need the longer valves to get the 1.700" installed spring height.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #71 by Max_Effort » Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:28 pm

Can you post good clear photos of the valve seats / valve job?

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Re: Engine is back

Post #72 by 68Flareside240 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:20 pm

Max_Effort wrote:Can you post good clear photos of the valve seats / valve job?


I will this evening. I went ahead and ordered the Enginetech V1633S as they were on closeout with only 7 left. A shade over $7 a piece. Ordered 12 new Melling MPR306 pushrods and an oil pump shaft. Can easily return if I don't end up using them.

I have a feeling this head will be going back, or somewhere else. Both intake and exhaust valves were very close in length, and the exhaust valve was obviously way shorter installed in the head. Correct me if I am wrong but the only way that happens is the valve seat is a different depth. The exhaust valves keeper was further down the stem which affects installed spring height, not the height of the valve in the head, correct?

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Re: Engine is back

Post #73 by pmuller9 » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:39 pm

68Flareside240 wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but the only way that happens is the valve seat is a different depth. The exhaust valves keeper was further down the stem which affects installed spring height, not the height of the valve in the head, correct?

Both of those observations are correct.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #74 by 68Flareside240 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:42 pm

I would so assume it is not supposed to be that way. I meant to take pictures of the valve seats the other night, but I pulled the valves and just kinda lost motivation and quit fooling with it. I know they're screwed up. Not making excuses for the shop, but they do about 80% just cylinder head work, and 98% of those are "just do enough to keep it running" due to financial considerations. I talked to them about fixing whatever was wrong as I wanted it right, but I'm thinking it was passed through as a teardown magnaflux, deck it, etc. Put it back together and keep on trucking. I know the head was "worked" about 500 miles before I got it. What all was done I'm not sure but I known it was done cheaply. I don't think the shop I went to even touched the seats and valves, it was all done prior. Probably gonna take it to them tomorrow go through what all needs to be done. I've gotten to know these guys pretty well, they've been doing this a long time. I know they can make it right. I think it was just a misunderstanding. I'm glad I decided to replace springs or I'm not sure id have ever caught it. One thing I did do was compare new pushrods to old. The old ones were significantly worn down on the tips. I'd be willing to bet they are originals and this motor has had a TON of miles put on it in it's life. I'll post some pics and let you know what I find out. Once again thanks for being a sounding board fellas.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #75 by Max_Effort » Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:52 pm

68Flareside240 wrote:I would so assume it is not supposed to be that way. I meant to take pictures of the valve seats the other night, but I pulled the valves and just kinda lost motivation and quit fooling with it. I know they're screwed up. Not making excuses for the shop, but they do about 80% just cylinder head work, and 98% of those are "just do enough to keep it running" due to financial considerations. I talked to them about fixing whatever was wrong as I wanted it right, but I'm thinking it was passed through as a teardown magnaflux, deck it, etc. Put it back together and keep on trucking. I know the head was "worked" about 500 miles before I got it. What all was done I'm not sure but I known it was done cheaply. I don't think the shop I went to even touched the seats and valves, it was all done prior. Probably gonna take it to them tomorrow go through what all needs to be done. I've gotten to know these guys pretty well, they've been doing this a long time. I know they can make it right. I think it was just a misunderstanding. I'm glad I decided to replace springs or I'm not sure id have ever caught it. One thing I did do was compare new pushrods to old. The old ones were significantly worn down on the tips. I'd be willing to bet they are originals and this motor has had a TON of miles put on it in it's life. I'll post some pics and let you know what I find out. Once again thanks for being a sounding board fellas.


I wanted to see if a quality valve job was performed. If it looked as a good multi angle job, with proper seat widths were done, then I’d ask you to check contact of the valve to the seat.
If all was good, then it wouldn’t be the worst thing to have a different installed height on the exhaust. You’d just have be sure spring force and pushrod length were still Ok (or compensate).

Often in the production, “get er done” shops, they just hit the seats quick with a 45* and slap it together.
Now to sink the exhaust seats to the proper depth and then bring in the proper valve job is a lot of work with stones. The job will go a lot faster with a cutter system, such a Serdi, VGS20, etc.. or a combo of cutter and stone.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #76 by 68Flareside240 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:03 pm

Image

Image

Image

Not sure if you can tell in the second picture, but the valve seat isn’t seated against the head

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Re: Engine is back

Post #77 by Max_Effort » Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:26 am

68Flareside240 wrote:Image

Image

Image

Not sure if you can tell in the second picture, but the valve seat isn’t seated against the head


It looks like the most recent work was a quick grind with a stone on the 45* seats. They might have hit the angle below the exhaust seat with a 60* stone. The whole exhaust seat doesn’t show full contact from the stone. And the 45* seat areas look wide from here.

You have hard seats intake and exhaust. They are probably in all the way, it can look like that from the old valve job and throat. I can’t tell if that’s a square sharp cut? The seats are older work and I would've expected them to have torched and fallen by now if they weren’t in tight and making good contact with the head casting.

It looks like the guides were replaced previously with conversion guides, hopefully they are still good.

It will probably run ok like that, but it isn’t great. If you want it better, You need to find a shop that can put a nice multi angle profile on the seats, and get them all at the same height.

The shop that did the work, probably does this all the time, gets by with very few complaints or problems and thought they did a good job and gave you a good deal.
It’s typical of a $796. Job to do all that work. They can only spend so much time on things.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #78 by pmuller9 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:58 pm

The intake seat is definitely deeper in the head than the exhaust seat.
The intake seat insert looks like it is too low in the head
I'm not sure I would want to cut that much off the exhaust insert to get equal seat heights.
Using the longer exhaust valves would be an easier fix.

Seat width should be .040".

The bowls need to be blended into the seat inserts.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #79 by 68Flareside240 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:26 pm

Well is it fixable? Would new seats and valves fix it? I really want to keep this head as this truck is all original. I know this truck isn't that valuable but from a sentimental standpoint from me. I learned a week or so ago a good friend of mine's grandfather bought this truck new. I'm the 3rd owner. I'd like to get it right but keep the original head.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #80 by Max_Effort » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:34 pm

68Flareside240 wrote:Well is it fixable? Would new seats and valves fix it? I really want to keep this head as this truck is all original. I know this truck isn't that valuable but from a sentimental standpoint from me. I learned a week or so ago a good friend of mine's grandfather bought this truck new. I'm the 3rd owner. I'd like to get it right but keep the original head.


From here... there is plenty of exhaust seat insert to cut. Whoever installed the seats, drove them in and just cut the 45*, then a bottom 57* or 60*. Those seats are hard and it takes forever to grind with stones.
I’d have no issue cutting the exhaust deeper, putting a top and bottom angle and blending into the bowls.
The intake just needs the minimum cut, with top and bottom angles to narrow the seat and blend into the bowls.

And you certainly could use longer valves.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #81 by 68Flareside240 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:50 pm

Just got off the phone with the shop. Pretty much what you fellas said. They touched everything up and knew I was running a hydraulic cam so didn't see enough discrepancy to affect what I was wanting to do. I already have the exhaust valves, springs, and retainers, just need to order new intake valves. Taking the head over Wednesday to drop it off and get it fixed correctly.

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Re: Engine is back

Post #82 by sdiesel » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:59 am

give us after pics just like u gave us b4 pics.
we check up on their work.

there is so little that I can call knowledge on this topic, so its imparitive, I have a good shop do the work.
like u are doing. your almost there!!!!
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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