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Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

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sdiesel
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Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #1 by sdiesel » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:11 am

So how would you build it?

Our " victim" , our host- boat will be , say, a mid 70's ski nautique or MasterCraft tournament boat. They were cranked out by the thousands, a cookie cutter boat if ever there was one. ( Leaving aside the mighty hydrodyne). Most if not all were the 351 Ford marine version which was little changed from the automotive version but for marine add one and other details.

Since bellhousing should be same, would a 300 serve equally well or better in a tournament boat?
Advantages? Disadvantages?
Obviously there would have to be some very custom work done to parts, but aside from that could we see an advantage one over the other?
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #2 by Broncomike » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:22 am

The couple of boats of that style I've been in had pretty tight engine compartments. Is there enough room for an inline?

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #3 by jgregg13 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:09 am

Not to be a real downer, but I don't see any advantages and the disadvantage would be finding good marine manifolds for a 25+ year old engine.

Now if it's an old wood boat like a Chris Craft or Resorter, that's another story. The Ford six would be a good choice. This is my cousin's 1920s Dodge Watercar that has a 392 Hemi swapped into it. It's 22 ft. long and the engine is under the bow, so no motor box in the single cockpit.

Image

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Seeing as how I hijacked this thread, here are some more photos of the Dodge. It's a 1924 model, so one of the earlier boats made by Dodge. Enjoy.
Image

Image

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Image

Image
Last edited by jgregg13 on Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #4 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:23 am

beautiful boat
I'd be tempted to put a glass (polycarbonate) cover over the hemi.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #5 by pmuller9 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:23 am

sdiesel wrote:Most if not all were the 351 Ford marine version which was little changed from the automotive version but for marine add one and other details.

Since bellhousing should be same, would a 300 serve equally well or better in a tournament boat?
Advantages? Disadvantages?

The 300 would have less power than the 351.
Any particular reason for wanting less power?

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #6 by wallen7 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:53 am

The 351W marine version was reverse rotation - I know that because once I installed a reman short block that had a rear main oil leak that turned out to have a marine crankshaft. The grooves to redirect the oil from the seal are cut backwards from an automotive crankshaft.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #7 by sdiesel » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:47 am

Reverse rotation..... This is curious will look into that
Less power.... Depends of course on how much less and the torque band.
tournament boats need all torque in by 4000.
And rock solid , absolutely controllable power in that range for consistent runs, like a bracket car.
As this forum is devoted mostly to getting max efficiency from the six, the less power argument invalidates itself
Especially if comparing apples to cantaloupe; highly modified six to factory v8. Of course a stroked 351 with aluminum heads and etc would walk ...
Longevity, I've been told there bottoms go out on the v8

Weight savings?
Fuel consumption?
Heat generation?
Cool factor?
Cost to build?
Space config savings: longer versus wider etc.
My experience in this area is the space savings starboard/ port would be wonderful the six might intrude on the pilot chair just a bit
More specifically can the six be a competitor to the eight in this application?
The grey marine engine was a successful power for many years in a boat.
The marine manifold would likely be a standard " header" ceramic coated with water injection to each port or to collector
I believe turbo might create unmanageable under hood temps. But an open motor box as a show boat .....there are possibles....

The six's "audibles" with waterline exhaust is...perfect.

That wtercar is beyond lovely , like a beautiful woman thx for this
Last edited by sdiesel on Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #8 by sdiesel » Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:54 am

Truthfully , if a six were re- introduced to marine application like this the effort might be better directed at the GM Atlas six for a variety of fundamentally sound reasons,
Excluding of course the massive adaptation effort required.
But many are adapting this lovely engine into roadsters and kit cars so even a boat might be a possible application
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #9 by Shorty » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:32 pm

not all were reverse rotation, just one side of a pair in the two engine versions. Singles engines were standard rotation.
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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #10 by sdiesel » Sat Jun 27, 2020 12:39 pm

Shorty wrote:not all were reverse rotation, just one side of a pair in the two engine versions. Singles engines were standard rotation.



That is what I expected to discover when looking into it. So thx , saved me the effort.
To my recollection the Ford was not a popular twin screw power, not like the GM engines. Or the Chrysler 318, which in my view was too heavy
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #11 by pmuller9 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:01 pm

Comparing apples to apples would be stock 300 to stock 351 or modified 300 to modified 351.
Stock form or applying the same modification to both, the 351 wins.

The reason for doing a 300 six is because you just want something different. I get that.
A turbo 300 would get you the power you need and make the engine more efficient.
You can get some very good heat shields or blankets for turbochargers.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #12 by jgregg13 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 1:44 pm

pmuller9 wrote:A turbo 300 would get you the power you need and make the engine more efficient.
You can get some very good heat shields or blankets for turbochargers.


Not that I would do a turbo in a boat, A fellow here did one and it worked very good. The nice thing is he made a water to air intercooler that was very effective. His was a squirt boat so lots of cold water supply that needs to be preheated before going into the block.

Without a turbo you would normally use a water jacket manifold to preheat the water but with your plan of injecting the water into the exhaust I would then use a closed system with a head exchanger. If you go in salt water you should have this anyway.

Comparing the 300 to a 4.2 Atlas, I like the sound of the 300 slower turning for a boat better. More traditional. The 4.2 being a lot lighter should get up on step quicker at a lower speed. Even the 5 and 4 cyl Atlas motors would do the job.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #13 by bubba22349 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:30 pm

sdiesel wrote:
Shorty wrote:not all were reverse rotation, just one side of a pair in the two engine versions. Singles engines were standard rotation.



That is what I expected to discover when looking into it. So thx , saved me the effort.
To my recollection the Ford was not a popular twin screw power, not like the GM engines. Or the Chrysler 318, which in my view was too heavy


Actually well before the 351 marine engines were used in twin engine boats other Ford engines were used. The Ford FE "427" was quite popular for use in both single engine ski boats and twin engine configurations from the mid 1960''s and beyond, like in the good sized Chriscraft Cabin Cruisers. :nod:
Even a bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

Current project is a 1988 John Deere 420 Garden Tractor I need a few small parts to get it fixed, plus some cosmetic items, maybe a few attachments, if you happen to have or know of JD 420 parts would welcome the help!

My Ex-Inline 6 Fleet 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #14 by blprice74 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:27 pm

jgregg13 wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:A turbo 300 would get you the power you need and make the engine more efficient.
You can get some very good heat shields or blankets for turbochargers.


Not that I would do a turbo in a boat, A fellow here did one and it worked very good. The nice thing is he made a water to air intercooler that was very effective. His was a squirt boat so lots of cold water supply that needs to be preheated before going into the block.

Without a turbo you would normally use a water jacket manifold to preheat the water but with your plan of injecting the water into the exhaust I would then use a closed system with a head exchanger. If you go in salt water you should have this anyway.

Comparing the 300 to a 4.2 Atlas, I like the sound of the 300 slower turning for a boat better. More traditional. The 4.2 being a lot lighter should get up on step quicker at a lower speed. Even the 5 and 4 cyl Atlas motors would do the job.



I am about to tell on myself here....I do have an Atlas motor...it's the 3.5 version. (Yes the inline 5). It's in a 2006 Colorado. In all honesty, Chevrolet had quite the trouble when they rolled this engine out. They replaced quite a few heads, valve train. It had its flaws...this obviously isn't the site for speaking of this Engine. Mine...well I (with the help of a close friend who is a GM tech) figured out the issue early on, and I'm knocking on the door of 200,000 miles on this engine.

But my heart is with the 300 since I've discovered it's potential, and just can't seem to find a flaw in it. I'm sure there are a few, but my viewpoint is that it's the best farm gasoline engines Ford ever produced. I'll keep the 3.5, only because I have figured out how to make it run...but I'll put more attention into the 300.
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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #15 by sdiesel » Sat Jun 27, 2020 10:31 pm

Well, a valid question now arises, was there ever a marine application for the Ford 300 six

The six can produce ample torque in the lower register, and is very durable in so doing.

It shaves a little over 100 pounds over the eight in an already heavy boat and shifts the weight slightly forward and centers it marginally better.
I wonder about fuel consumption but assume better numbers than the 8.
For once the head can work to advantage by slimming up the engine.

The 351 developed a reputation for good power but a short life in a tow boat . but considering the abuse these boats see and the unconcerned operators or owners I can scarce blame the engine. Though the lower end can be suspect in the 351.
The electric water pump, meziere or Davies, circulating cool water through an exchanger heated by the exiting hot water would bring things into line there.


Grey marine powered many hundreds of thousands of vessels. I'm hardly being different , more I'm getting back to roots with a result that perhaps another application can be found for our lovely sixes, and that it may offer improvement not yet considered in the boating circles.

THIS JUST IN: THERE WAS A SEAMASTER( ford marine) VERSION OF THE 300 SIX FORD. I CAUGHT AN OBLIQUE REFERENCE TO IT AND IT LED TO A YOUTUBE CHANNEL WITH CLEAR PICTURES OF THE 300 IN MARINE TRIM. the snout pulle drives some kind of pump under the exhaust system, likely a water pump?
Here the link:
https://youtu.be/UEgji91R4CY
or this from 2002
viewtopic.php?t=815

now im really getting interested in this ...
but i need a boat.....no, i dont need a boat, what am i thinking, but if i did have a boat....
Last edited by sdiesel on Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #16 by pmuller9 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:24 pm

Looks like water cooled intake and exhaust manifolds.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #17 by BigBlue94 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:35 pm

Not much help in the mechanical aspects, but I know a LOT of Chriscraft vessels came powered by ford. And they werent afraid of weight either. They were stuffing two 534" Superduty truck engines in and hanging two turbo's off each one back on the late 60's. They were called super seamasters

I think a 300 or maybe better yet, a high revving 240, would be great in a boat, though im used to small boats and small outboards. Not much water in Kansas!
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #18 by guhfluh » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:50 pm

I see exhaust manifold heat being a problem at the head/intake area. If you could find or build a water cooled manifold, it'd be great.

Many, many marine water cooled turbo exhaust housings out there for Cummins and others.

A prop pitch change for the RPM band wanted may be warranted.
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #19 by sdiesel » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:14 pm

is that the same hydro as earlier, one you sent me some years ago, the miss dairy?

and how did you pre heat the coolant?

do you have figures on the dry weight of that engine?
i recall the fuel management on that engine was tops with no surging or slosh on pretty rough waters

in a tow boat we would like to see consistent , dead-on torque with a planing hull, flat bottom under 4000rpm.

here is a link to the kind of abuse these boats get. this pace must be kept for one nautical mile

https://www.hagerty.com/media/marine/90 ... ld-record/

out here on the west coast we dont have the lakes or "ponds" like in the midwest.

a single engine inboard would have had a difficult time with this pull, there is no substitute for the hydrodyne as a tow boat, easily the finest design in 70 years, but not conducive to a mid engine inboard.


The guys out "squid-ing" but gives a moment of entertainment. the first pilot is really talented driver, i fear for the boat on the second video!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=001HOtj7LTE
or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSufUWimFHM
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #20 by guhfluh » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:51 pm

sdiesel wrote:Well, a valid question now arises, was there ever a marine application for the Ford 300 six

The six can produce ample torque in the lower register, and is very durable in so doing.

It shaves a little over 100 pounds over the eight in an already heavy boat and shifts the weight slightly forward and centers it marginally better.
I wonder about fuel consumption but assume better numbers than the 8.
For once the head can work to advantage by slimming up the engine.

The 351 developed a reputation for good power but a short life in a tow boat . but considering the abuse these boats see and the unconcerned operators or owners I can scarce blame the engine. Though the lower end can be suspect in the 351.
The electric water pump, meziere or Davies, circulating cool water through an exchanger heated by the exiting hot water would bring things into line there.


Grey marine powered many hundreds of thousands of vessels. I'm hardly being different , more I'm getting back to roots with a result that perhaps another application can be found for our lovely sixes, and that it may offer improvement not yet considered in the boating circles.

THIS JUST IN: THERE WAS A SEAMASTER( ford marine) VERSION OF THE 300 SIX FORD. I CAUGHT AN OBLIQUE REFERENCE TO IT AND IT LED TO A YOUTUBE CHANNEL WITH CLEAR PICTURES OF THE 300 IN MARINE TRIM. the snout pulle drives some kind of pump under the exhaust system, likely a water pump?
Here the link:
https://youtu.be/UEgji91R4CY
or this from 2002
viewtopic.php?t=815

now im really getting interested in this ...
but i need a boat.....no, i dont need a boat, what am i thinking, but if i did have a boat....
It's a raw water pump for the heat exchangers and manifolds.
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #21 by pmuller9 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:16 am

sdiesel wrote:is that the same hydro as earlier, one you sent me some years ago, the miss dairy?
and how did you pre heat the coolant?
do you have figures on the dry weight of that engine?
i recall the fuel management on that engine was tops with no surging or slosh on pretty rough waters

Yes it is the same Hydro that I sent you a while back, The Miss Merion Bluegrass.
https://www.missmerionbluegrass.com/

We regulated the coolant temp with 1/4" to 1/2" jets in the water line coming from the rudder pickup.
The water first split to the gearbox and oil cooler then to the engine and out the back of the sponsons.
The gear box and engine oil heat exchanger offered a little preheat.
Water pressure peaks around 25 psi.
We once made the mistake of restricting the water with jets at the exit point. The pressure peaked at over 100 psi and ballooned the engine oil heat exchanger.

Never weighed the engine but I suspect it was near 800 lbs.
Kirk built a special heavy duty engine stand just for that engine.

The 26 gallon fuel tank is filled with wiffle balls and the fuel pickup is in an open top box with one way flappers in the sides so fuel can go to the pickup but not out of the box away from the pickup.

As far as lakes in WA state we ran Spanaway lake, Black lake, lake Chelan, lake Coeur d'Alene and several places along the Columbia river.
Other APBA events in WA are help in Silver lake, Angel lake and lake Lawrence.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #22 by sdiesel » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:03 am

So in a marine application short of full on racing, the incoming coolant temp should be as close to operating temp as possible? Like 195 or so?

In a pleasure craft / tow boat that will see a ton of idling and low pre plane time,a closed system with heat exchanger or some valving to allowed cool water in and hot out might work. I've been told by persons affiliated, that much of the short life reputation the 351 has in marine application is due to inadequate cooling and excessive idling.
Not sure on this though
A " hood scoop" would aid induction mightily

Yes to the water pump driven by the snout pulley thx fer verification.
That engine looks very heavy....
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #23 by guhfluh » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:10 am

sdiesel wrote:So in a marine application short of full on racing, the incoming coolant temp should be as close to operating temp as possible? Like 195 or so?

In a pleasure craft / tow boat that will see a ton of idling and low pre plane time,a closed system with heat exchanger or some valving to allowed cool water in and hot out might work. I've been told by persons affiliated, that much of the short life reputation the 351 has in marine application is due to inadequate cooling and excessive idling.
Not sure on this though
A " hood scoop" would aid induction mightily

Yes to the water pump driven by the snout pulley thx fer verification.
That engine looks very heavy....
I don't understand the problem? Marine engines use a thermostat in the cooling system just the same as all others. Heat exchangers take the place of radiators. Raw water is unrestricted and constantly circulated. Antifreeze/coolant flow is regulated by temp. Unless you're wanting to just go with a fresh/raw water only system, then heat exchangers are foregone but thermostats are still utilized and everything rusts away... :lol:
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #24 by sdiesel » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:55 am

No, I'm trying to say with little success that the engine cannot use unheated lake water for cooling...

Actually asking
Can unheated water pulled up be used without preheating?
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #25 by guhfluh » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:14 am

On the marine engines I can remember working on, everything had the exhaust cooled last in the system. The engine coolers were the first to receive flow. On a freshwater only system, I'm not sure, as I've only seen a couple maybe. I see no difference than in a car with an oversized radiator and thermostat.
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #26 by Lazy JW » Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:12 pm

pmuller9 wrote:...

As far as lakes in WA state..., lake Coeur d'Alene ...


Ah, snuck over for a quick run in Idaho, eh? 8) :nod:
"The White OX" 1974 F-350 300-6, Stock single exhaust, Carter YF, T-18A, Dana70 w/4.11, Flatbed dually w/dump bed. "Where no oxen are, the crib is clean, but much increase is by the strength of the ox" (Proverbs 14:4)
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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #27 by pmuller9 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:27 pm

Lazy JW wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:...

As far as lakes in WA state..., lake Coeur d'Alene ...


Ah, snuck over for a quick run in Idaho, eh? 8) :nod:

Yep, you caught us.
Even though they put barges outside of the course the water was still rough enough to damage several flat bottom boats.
The flat bottom of our boat pushed up into the engine flywheel and cut a shallow groove in the wood.
Others in GP class cavitated the props and did engine damage.
It was an interesting weekend.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #28 by sdiesel » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:43 pm

...not to mention the scrambled brains and loose fillings of the boat driver....
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #29 by sdiesel » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:51 pm

If the 300 were put to use in this application I would start with carburetor , a quadrajet for sure, and some fancy ignition/ timing.
It would be a small step up to fitec, with a snorkel type
boat scoop isolating the carb from the engine.
Edis 6 with MS maybe and a long block with the magic numbers whatever they would be to give me huge torque down low.

Another favorite fantasy of mine is a power glide ...but that is purely fantasy autos have had limited success in marine applications... But this is my fantasy boat, what the heck!!?
The plastic would be a gekko 20gts, cause they are cheaply made and light and sexy as heck in the water.great lines
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #30 by pmuller9 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:50 pm

sdiesel wrote:Edis 6 with MS maybe and a long block with the magic numbers whatever they would be to give me huge torque down low.

I would think that you would want huge torque from 2000 to 5000 rpm and operate mostly at 4000 rpm for long high speed runs?

Boat props are usually geared high than the engine rpm.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #31 by sixtseventwo4d » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:11 pm

sdiesel wrote:No, I'm trying to say with little success that the engine cannot use unheated lake water for cooling...

Actually asking
Can unheated water pulled up be used without preheating?


It would negatively effect engine longevity, engine heat transfers better to warm water.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #32 by sdiesel » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:40 am

4000 or less sounds right.
Boats today may ,or should have gps.
A good boat drivers in my youth on lake shasta was the difference .
He was priceless.
All day he had to make pass after pass sometimes 40 times or more a day. Using 2 airguide speedos and calculating by eye the average difference between readings to get precisely 26 mph or 28 or whatever the
Pass called for. And he had to do it perfectly every time, calculating the many different body weights of competitors, skiing style, windage, water conditions, even temperature.
He had to know his boat.
This was compounded ly more difficult if the boat was twin rigged or triples cause he had to manipulate two hand throttles. tracking , pitch and yaw, as well as cavitation ( trim) could cause a competitor points. And the boat driver would hear about it.

With the inboard this was made easier because weight of boat, single screw and the response of an auto v8 was a bit more tractable that two high strung 2-stroke outboards.

But obviously a high torque low rpm engine with long stroke would do well at this. I remember 30 or 32 being top speed in competition.
So nothing fast just grunt. And do it all day long.
I never understood the boating worlds fascination with the v8
The six , properly built would hunker down , draw a breath of air and pull like an elephant, I believe.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #33 by pmuller9 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:43 am

sdiesel wrote:But obviously a high torque low rpm engine with long stroke would do well at this. I remember 30 or 32 being top speed in competition.

So let's look at the 300 six.

A naturally aspirated 300 six can muster up between 325 and 350 ft lbs of torque at sea level.
The rpm at which that occurs depends on the engine configuration.

If you are looking at making those numbers at 3500 rpm the head will need the usual big valve and port work modifications along with a cam profile to match.
So lets say you want to push the 300 six to 300 ft lbs at 3500 rpm. That is equal to 200 hp
If that is enough power to get the job done then then you are good

If you need more then that at a low rpm it is time for a turbocharger.

Two great things about using a turbo.
The torque at any any given rpm is no longer fixed and can be varied to match boat drag.
The engine becomes more fuel efficient.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #34 by JackFish » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:05 pm

Mercury and OMC used straight six engines a lot for their inboard/outboard drives.

Our 21' Starcraft was usually cruised between 3000 and 3500rpm, and would max out just over 4000.
165hp Chevy engine in that one.
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
Yup, I bought another one.
1996 Chevy Caprice 9C1 (3)
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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #35 by sdiesel » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:35 am

I did have some trouble locating torque spec for the 351 marine app. Seems most boat owners or shoppers are mesmerized by HP numbers thus tq numbers fade from view.
The 351 was a 240- 310 hp engine and forums report a run rpm of 4800. I'm going to guess that v8 delivers 265 - 300 tq...

Thus assuming that diddly research holds across many different boats , we can assume that a well built 300 can out pull a V8 and do so more efficiently at a lower rpm.
With less weight, heat, fuel consumption.
To add a turbo would be delicious. Unsure if the USCG would allow, but I sure would.
Thus and finally I am going to surmise that an inline is a worthy competitor for a tow boat offering advantages a V8 cannot, and no drawbacks.

The enhanced fuel efficiency you refer to Is picked up through steady speed operation? Of a boat?
Realizing a turbo increases the efficiency of an engine, it has been my observation that most turbo engines actually consume more fuel.
Of course I cannot factor improper combination of parts , or poor tune or simply driver enthusiasm. All of them will cause poor fuel consumption numbers that I've heard about with turbos.

Sure would be a fun project if a lighter eight tow boat with a bad engine were available. I see no reason a six would be inferior and the obstacles to making it suitable for marine use could easily be overcome
.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #36 by pmuller9 » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:07 am

Looks pretty strict.
https://www.usawaterski.org/pages/divis ... Manual.pdf

The turbocharger takes some the exhaust energy that would have been wasted and returns that energy to the engine.
A naturally aspirated engine has to work against intake manifold vacuum to draw air fuel mixture into the cylinder which is seen as a pumping loss.
The turbocharger instead pressurizes the intake manifold which pumps the piston downward during the intake stroke like a mini power stroke.
The pumping losses are replaced with power derived from the exhaust system.

Unlike a road vehicle that can spend a lot of time cruising without boost, a boat will spend most of the time under boost to take advantage of the energy recoop.
Here the boat is being driven the same whether naturally aspirated or turbocharged so an efficiency comparison may be accurate.
When adding a turbo to land vehicle the driving habits usually change and the right foot gets heavy.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #37 by sdiesel » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:46 am

I'm sold , turbo it is!!
And would look wildly cool if ever a glimpse of such a power unit were to be seen..

Above someone said that warm water transfers heat more efficiently- this I did not know.
So the captured warm water in a ski boat, would require some fancy engineering to make best use, including , I suppose a water-cooled turbo.

As for tow boat testing- yes very strict even back in my day.
There were three
Correct craft ( ski nautique)
MasterCraft
And
The mighty hydrodyne.
These were sanctioned boats with the "Dyne" being superior to the others for any number of reasons.( Unbiased opinion), but eventually losing out to the popularity of v8 power and cost.
Today's Dynes, are custom built boats one at a time , the company is long gone , but the design is perfect for the application
In the literature concerning the " Dyne" :
I like reading the spec.for maximum rated power.
It says " unlimited" that tickles me. And indeed there is some gossip about mounting 3 Merc 400's on a Dyne

We would try at 26 mph to make a twin rig boat to turn 180 degrees within its own length, a good driver could.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #38 by Firepower354 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 2:29 am

There's a big-ole-log 300 marine manifold on the 'Bay for $1000. Egad

A Holset/Cummins marine water jacketed turbine housing should size up easy enough

I haven't been in the belly of one lately, but unless there's room to move the bellhousing flange rearward, the balancer is going to run in to the ski pole.

I think the 34mph at 4000rpm is close to what they do, but prop mods can alter the "gearing"

I don't see a chance of running a non-jacketed exhaust in the confines of a ski boat. Too much heat.

I may have skipped that day in thermodynamics, but I'm struggling with the warmer water cooling better. Now, TOO cold, which I think happens in some freshwater engines, leading to excessive wear, I'm onboard with.

The lower weight of engine, manifolds, risers, etc, should be a bunch, but on a 3500lb boat, it's not likely to matter
It gets 10MPG, but goes up to 14 if I lie.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #39 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:38 am

Firepower354 wrote:I may have skipped that day in thermodynamics, but I'm struggling with the warmer water cooling better.

mee too
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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #40 by sdiesel » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:38 am

To fit a turbo six would require some intelligent engineering.
The pylon could be moved easily enough , and not upset the placement balance.

I woul ask about cool water injection to exhaust to control temps a wrapped turbo, and the exhaust wrapped also

It would be invasive swap.
Stringer modification cuts the floor up to make room.
Not huge problem but is part of swap.

Many older boats I might consider for this swap need new stringers anyway.
New motor box
Yikes ! 3500 pound boat, that's a ton. Actually it's getting nigh onto 2 tons!!
I had no idea they were that heavy.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #41 by BigBlue94 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:13 pm

So it appears that Seamaster did in fact make a 300. 170hp. In fact, it seems they only did the 300 and the massive 534. At least through the sixties. I started looking because I saw a Commander 351 ford in a Craigslist ad. Its in a 1980 american ski boat.

Page 166 in this google book

https://books.google.com/books?id=tsjo-lgyVxgC&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=ford+300+seamaster+marine+inline+six&source=bl&ots=k8bjM_tioi&sig=ACfU3U09UzTxvAYt7xcsB55rZwESVzuEpg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjc7NvN6rnqAhWPHc0KHULaAvUQ6AEwDHoECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=ford%20300%20seamaster%20marine%20inline%20six&f=false

Page 127 in this one from 1969

https://books.google.com/books?id=1Ftvq0TCXGUC&pg=PA127&lpg=PA127&dq=ford+300+seamaster+marine+inline+six&source=bl&ots=D5urcseicI&sig=ACfU3U1lxs5GnSFxGuss1KykxupX_71h2A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjc7NvN6rnqAhWPHc0KHULaAvUQ6AEwD3oECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=ford%20300%20seamaster%20marine%20inline%20six&f=false

Quite a bit of talk on boat forums asking this same type of question. Even numerous ones here on FordSix. I googled ' ford 300 seamaster marine inline six'
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #42 by sdiesel » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:57 pm

Can one speculate about the crankshaft in the marine application?
Hmmm...
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #43 by BigBlue94 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:54 pm

sdiesel wrote:Can one speculate about the crankshaft in the marine application?
Hmmm...


One bit I read said they used HD truck engines, and those documents are from 67 and 69 i believe. Hints at a forged crank? Maybe so...

No boat needs a reverse rotation engine as they can be reversed through a gearbox. Though some dual engine boats did have counter rotating engines to combat cavitation and simplify the install.

Hah! Can you imagime having to source a forged crank that is ALSO reverse rotation?? Good luck finding that shrimp in the ocean lol.
1985 Bronco. 309ci I6, NP435, 4.56 gears, Detroit locker and tru-trac, 4" lift, and 37" swamper tires. The 309 is 9.75:1 CR with a Schneider 140H cam, 4bbl, roller rockers, larger valves, and headers.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #44 by bubba22349 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:11 pm

Many Years ago I had a reverse rotation 427 FE marine short block that I pickuped for a spare for my drag race car. To my knownage almost everthing including the crankshaft was the same as the standard Ford 427. What made it into a reverse rotation engine was the specialty ground camshaft. I would assume that it would also need a specialy (reverse) wound starter and alternator, but I didn't get those parts with the block. :thumbup: :nod:
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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #45 by Lazy JW » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:29 pm

bubba22349 wrote:Many Years ago I had a reverse rotation 427 FE marine short block that I pickuped for a spare for my drag race car. To my knownage almost everthing including the crankshaft was the same as the standard Ford 427. What made it into a reverse rotation engine was the specialty ground camshaft. I would assume that it would also need a specialy (reverse) wound starter and alternator, but I didn't get those parts with the block. :thumbup: :nod:


The alternator doesn't care but the starter sure does. And maybe the water pump.
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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #46 by wallen7 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:58 pm

The crankshaft would be different also - I have run into this before . The oil slinger grooves are ground opposite on reverse rotation to direct the oil back to the pan.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #47 by Econoline » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:36 pm

It's strange they would use a reverse rotation engine in a single screw boat. That must be the tranny's requirement. Is it shaft driven prop or a stern drive? In either case it's the transmission that matters. Some can go either way, some can't.
Last edited by Econoline on Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #48 by bubba22349 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:45 pm

Really no reason to use a reverse rotation engine in a single engine boat. I have only seen them used in twin engine boats. :nod:
Even a bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

Current project is a 1988 John Deere 420 Garden Tractor I need a few small parts to get it fixed, plus some cosmetic items, maybe a few attachments, if you happen to have or know of JD 420 parts would welcome the help!

My Ex-Inline 6 Fleet 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #49 by Econoline » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:50 pm

Exactly Bubba. Unless the transmission or outdrive and/or engine they had on hand determined why they installed one.
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Re: Another idle contemplation -the 300 six "marinized" for watersport

Post #50 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:38 pm

wallen7 wrote:The crankshaft would be different also - I have run into this before . The oil slinger grooves are ground opposite on reverse rotation to direct the oil back to the pan.


300 cranks have no oil slinger grooves on the mains.

What may matter is the direction in which the journals are ground. If the grinding wheel spins in the wrong direction the surface finish on the journal will ruin the bearing inserts in short order.
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