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looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

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Tbone3366
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looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #1 by Tbone3366 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:31 pm

What are the available cams for an 87-8 f250 300 EFI, im looking for raw towing power and i decided based on the cummins exhaust thread, im gonna buy an ecoboost 2.7l turbo have it welded and use a 6.5 gm turbo or similar size or smaller in a compound setup to have boost off 1200 rpm all the way up to 3600, cost is not an issue and gas mileage is not an issue, im looking to make a huge workhorse and i have the tuning equipment to tune the EFI system (quarter horse and tunerpro RT along with hex editor), this is also for the coolness factor as i take my trucks to car shows, im setting a rev limit of 4000 RPM other than the HD crankshaft and forged internals, i have the bolt on style of rockers not the stud mount ones im still confused to the process of that but i would like to do the chevy rockers or whatever is better that will work on this, i will be having ribs put in on both sides strategically welded in to support the engine block with boost and arp studs all around, this will be a full rebuild, ill be posting some pics of the truck im going to mod shortly, its an F250 srw with the t18 (soon the ZF-5 47) 10.5 axle swap 4.10 LS and has a service truck bed that i do use for work, im a mobile mechanic and have 9 trucks with this motor to play with in my small buissness, again money is not an issue nor is Gas mileage

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #2 by THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER » Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:29 pm

Tbone3366 wrote:...i will be having ribs put in on both sides strategically welded in to support the engine block with boost ...
Plan on annealing the block and then honing with a torque plate if you try this, to eliminate internal stresses and restore dimensional stability.
FORD 300 INLINE SIX - THE BEST KEPT SECRET IN DRAG RACING

Tbone3366
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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #3 by Tbone3366 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 3:56 pm

THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER wrote:
Tbone3366 wrote:...i will be having ribs put in on both sides strategically welded in to support the engine block with boost ...
Plan on annealing the block and then honing with a torque plate if you try this, to eliminate internal stresses and restore dimensional stability.


i will have to look around we do have some machine shops but im not sure they do that, probably drive to san diego or pheonix for that, im also going to here shortly design an efi intake manifold that will accomidate the 460 throttle body and the oem maf and everything else in auto cad and if i can get one made or send to someone who can do it and it makes good numbers even on a stock engine have that done, i tow my 2.7l stroker duratec inline 4 ranger to NASAAZ/CA events and sometimes going through the mountains my 300 has to be in 2nd gear to maintain 40 mph through the mountains. and i keep hearing about this aluminum head, did the guy developing it stop or slow down?

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #4 by pmuller9 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 4:33 pm

For that rpm range you are looking at a custom cam with an .050" intake duration in the 190 degree range and 180 degrees for the exhaust on a 114 LSA.
The exhaust duration also depends on the style of exhaust manifold, whether it is a log style or has longer separate runners.

You want as much valve lift as possible so consider the 1.73 ratio Scorpion 1059 pedestal mount roller rockers for the Ford 4.9.

A big valve, ported iron head will get the job done.
The 68cc EFI head requires extensive combustion chamber mods to unshroud the valves for better air flow and lower the compression ratio for turbocharging otherwise the piston will need a very large dish volume.
The 1986 and earlier 76 chamber heads are much easier to work with.

Bruce (WorldChampGramp) is still working on the aluminum crossflow head.
It is comprised of sectioned new high quality LS3 heads.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #5 by Tbone3366 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:10 pm

pmuller9 wrote:For that rpm range you are looking at a custom cam with an .050" intake duration in the 190 degree range and 180 degrees for the exhaust on a 114 LSA.
The exhaust duration also depends on the style of exhaust manifold, whether it is a log style or has longer separate runners.

You want as much valve lift as possible so consider the 1.73 ratio Scorpion 1059 pedestal mount roller rockers for the Ford 4.9.

A big valve, ported iron head will get the job done.
The 68cc EFI head requires extensive combustion chamber mods to unshroud the valves for better air flow and lower the compression ratio for turbocharging otherwise the piston will need a very large dish volume.
The 1986 and earlier 76 chamber heads are much easier to work with.

Bruce (WorldChampGramp) is still working on the aluminum crossflow head.
It is comprised of sectioned new high quality LS3 heads.


will i need to replace my pushrods in order to mount the scorpion kit, and alright, im looking around for what i can find from comp or just have a custom grind

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #6 by pmuller9 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:17 pm

The stock pushrods are barely .060" wall and bend with the least amount of resistance.
The exhaust valve requires a lot of force to open against the extra exhaust pressure so you will want thicker wall pushrods.
The rocker arm geometry needs to be checked with the cam installed to determine the correct pushrod length.

Here is the complete cam list for the 300 six.
There is nothing close.
viewtopic.php?p=613117#p613117

The stock EFI chamber versus the modified chamber including port work

ImageImage
Last edited by pmuller9 on Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #7 by Tbone3366 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:33 pm

pmuller9 wrote:The stock pushrods are barely .060" wall and bend with the least amount of resistance.
The exhaust valve requires a lot of force to open against the extra exhaust pressure so you will want thicker wall pushrods.
The rocker arm geometry needs to be checked with the cam installed to determine the correct pushrod length.

Here is the complete cam list for the 300 six.
There is nothing close.
https://fordsix.com/viewtopic.php?p=613117#p613117

The fully modified EFI combustion chamber is shown on the right.

Image


for the time being, i do have the cloyes gear set, do you know how if theres any benefit at all on my 83 150 300 to going past straight up (0 degrees retard) or if 4 is the absolute hard max, would any of the RV cams work for my 87 f250 im building, do you think the stock ecm will be able to handle adding all the power down low or should i just drop in a 2004 ranger v6 pcm and make it fully electronic, distributor delete, 12 port fuel injectors, maf and map, and finally what fuel pump should i run

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #8 by Tbone3366 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:34 pm

And i mean tuning the stock ecm vs tuning the ranger pcm

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #9 by pmuller9 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:46 pm

If you advance the stock cam to straight up and use a higher octane pump gas the stock ECU is fine with that.
You will find the peak torque moves under 2000 rpm and the off idle torque improves.
If you want to try 4 degrees advanced it will still just be a matter of gas octane to prevent detonation.

As far as the turbo build I would keep the EFI intake and use an aftermarket map system with sequential injection and go distributorless.
I would recommend the Holley HP.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #10 by Tbone3366 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:49 pm

pmuller9 wrote:If you advance the stock cam to straight up and use a higher pump gas the stock ECU is fine with that.
You will find the peak torque moves under 2000 rpm and the off idle torque improves.
If you want to try 4 degrees advanced it will still just be a matter of gas octane to prevent detonation.

As far as the turbo build I would keep the EFI intake and use an aftermarket map system with sequential injection and go distributorless.
I would recommend the Holley HP.


ok, any aftermarket map system you would recomend, and secondly, is there any benefit to going past straight up? is there a thread for that aswell

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #11 by bubba22349 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:26 pm

I did essentially what you want to do the old school way back in the late 1980's with a almost stock 300 rebuilt to Medium duty specs. Below is the parts combo i used for my 300 swap in a 1965 F350, it was a real workhorse that could haul heavy loads, tow trailers effortlessly, and it never let me down. Since your working with an EFI truck it also helps that you will have a little better low end torque than the old carb ended trucks.

Short block build was a basic .030 over with rebuilder cast Pistons (I used a NAPA sourced engine kit and machine shop services) est. compression was about 8 to 8.5 to 1, upgraded to Molly rings, .010 / .010 stock cast crank with upgraded to Cleveite 77 bearings, rebuilt stock connecting Rods, Melling (standard pressure) oil pump, stock 65 F350 6 quart oil pan, stock bearing clearance's, upgraded Melling (MTF-6 RV / Torque) Cam, Aluminum Cam gear / steel crank gear, FelPro gasket set. The head was off a 300 propane fork lift engine (stock valve sizes Serdi radius valve seats with 3 angle grind to valves and back cut). I found this head to use as a replacement when I was having trouble with the two previous early head castings (1965 to 69) that kept wiping out a couple of the exhaust guides when California took all the lead out of the fuels. I used the stock log exhaust manifold into a 2 1/4 inch pipe and a single turbo muffler dumping right in front of the passenger side tire. Stock intake with a new Holley 1940 carb, the ignistion was a stock DuraSpark II system and stock wiring harness from a 1977 up Ford 300. The engine performance was excellent for hauling or towing, it ran great on 86 - 87 crap gas and it's pulling torque started from just off idle.

Some other things that I wanted to try out on it back then was one of the big truck (heavy duty) exhaust manifold from an F500 / F600 with I full 2 1/2 inch exhaust system, one of the an Eldenbrock 1V intake, with a 1968 Autolite 1V and also a Carter YFA carb's, (I was going more towards MPG economy). Also planed to try a gear venders overdrive unit behind the trans. If I was building it today would also do some more to the head by pocket porting under the valves and do some mild porting to clean up intake and exhaust ports. This engine build was done for a reasonable cost and was very economical to operate develering 11 to 15 MPG depending on the load being pulled or carried.

About the truck.

The truck was a 1965 Regular Cab F-350 base model (no frills or extras) short wheel base Dually Chassis with an 9ft x 7ft stake bed with a dump, stock cab fuel tank & an extra 18 Gal saddle type fuel tank, weight was just a little over 5800 Lbs with fuel and truck bed empty, had the excellent NP435 trans and 5:14 rear axle gears. The truck was originally equipped with a 240 six so the gearing was just a bit too low for the extra torque of the 300 swapped in it could take off at idle without touching the gas in granny low. To try and compensate some I put the tallest 16 inch radials available then 255 16 75's. I never had a tach in it but the truck stopped pulling at 62 MPH (am sure the Speed O was off some too because of the slightly taller tire size being used over the original size but even still it really could have used an overdrive or taller gearing for Freeway driving to be able to cruse at 65 to 75 MPH, and today I would use a ZF 5 speed.

Adistional things to convert a 300 build for even more heavy duty use 300 long block for your planed Turbo build you can add the set of custom forged pistions with custom rods or if you have access To a good set of 1965 to 1969 240 rods magnaflux them, polish the beams and add a set of ARP bolts before being rebuild. Forged crank could be good but they are getting very hard to find, a Cast crank is plenty strong enough and if you wanted you could have the compleate rotating assembly balanced for extra smoothness at speed. You could also have Shielder Cams custom grind you a cam for about the same cost as an off the shelf cam to better fit your trucks torque needs. I like to keep the over bore on these medium / heavy duty use truck engine blocks to no more than .040 over and really prefer to keep them at .030 or less with a Turbo you need all the extra strength of thicker cylinders. Good luck on your 300 build. :nod: :thumbup:
Even a bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

Current project is a 1988 John Deere 420 Garden Tractor I need a few small parts to get it fixed, plus some cosmetic items, maybe a few attachments, if you happen to have or know of JD 420 parts would welcome the help!

My Ex-Inline 6 Fleet 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #12 by pmuller9 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:43 pm

Tbone3366 wrote:ok, any aftermarket map system you would recomend, and secondly, is there any benefit to going past straight up? is there a thread for that aswell

Recommended EFI system
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_sy ... ts/550-605

Advanced stock cam link. Post #39
viewtopic.php?p=601362#p601362

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #13 by bubba22349 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:45 pm

:shock: late in getting posted with my slow typing skills! But it looks like with the build direction your planing is taking not much of the above is going be of any help to you. Sorry about that, still I will be quite interested in how the 300 Turbo builds turns out. :nod:
Even a bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

Current project is a 1988 John Deere 420 Garden Tractor I need a few small parts to get it fixed, plus some cosmetic items, maybe a few attachments, if you happen to have or know of JD 420 parts would welcome the help!

My Ex-Inline 6 Fleet 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #14 by sdiesel » Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:46 am

Begin looking now for a zf5-470. In the small block pattern they are almost nonexistant and in fact may very well be non existent. When ford went to the 47, they did so mostly for the powerstroke ,it seems unlikely they also moved that way for the gas engines, especially the small block gas engine which were a markedly different animal than the vibrating, power boosted, transmission hungry, diesels.
The 470 was out into the line in 95, and just a few years before the 385 series engines were axed

I hope you can prove me wrong here on this
And can tell me you already have on e. If you do guard it .

The gas transmissions gave none of the troubles that the diesels did , thus less of a motivation to change to a very much more expensive 470. The torque of a gas engine coming nowhere near the limits set by the 420, much less the 470.
Other
Options for transmissions may include SAE bellhousing with truck trans,7 speed spicer o,d.
The newer ZF 6 speed with adapter plate.
The 420, SERIES built up by Midwest transmission with the goodies. Cryro treatment etc

Last, the zf can benefit from lube technology. Consider a pump and external cooler, easy to do and very beneficial to this splash lubed transmission. It will easily improve the strength of the 420 by keeping the temps way down
I am experimenting with Case IHI hytrans lube in my worn out 5-420. Will report back soon.
Last, in the bellhousingng behind the bearing at the input seal there is a very small port, plugged that if opened can be used to feed the main shaft and input bearing with return from your external pump,also very easy to do. Support your transfer case as they can twist the tail housing g off.especially as mount wear out
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #15 by arse_sidewards » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:58 am

Why the fixation on revving so low? If you had an automatic and a stock ECU that's always trying to keep you in the highest gear possible I'd see why but with a manual you can keep it in the power band. Your cam options would be a lot better if you bumped the target rev range up by 1k or so.
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #16 by pmuller9 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:49 am

I would like to see this project done as planned since a turbo cam would need to be custom no matter what.
A compound turbo system provides a super wide power band and boost lag is eliminated in the process.

A turbo from the ecoboost 2.7l I believe is a Borg Warner K03 which is fine for the first turbo in the system.
The Borg Warner 38 mm K04 turbo is also a good match and has a very wide compressor operating range at the higher boost levels.

I would stay with Borg Warner for the larger second turbo.
The Borg Warner EFR 6758-F(v) 54mm ball bearing turbo has good response time and will carry the power band to 4500 rpm.

This is not a true compound system as used on a diesel engine where there is a high pressure and a low pressure turbocharger.
On this project the first turbo has a wastegate that bypasses itself dumping the exhaust into the larger second turbo just before target boost is met.
The second larger turbo then carries the boost into the higher rpm ranges.
A second wastegate regulates the final boost level.

What boost levels are you looking at?

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #17 by sdiesel » Thu Aug 27, 2020 4:22 pm

arse_sidewards wrote:Why the fixation on revving so low? If you had an automatic and a stock ECU that's always trying to keep you in the highest gear possible I'd see why but with a manual you can keep it in the power band. Your cam options would be a lot better if you bumped the target rev range up by 1k or so.



I get this, but for we who heavy haul a lot, a 5000 rpm range is a nuisance.
The beauty of the six lies, I feel in her first 3000 rpm, among other beauties like weight ,engine bay clutter etc.

Were I under a gooseneck trailer with 12 thousand pounds, I much would prefer to be pulling at 3800 or less than I would at 4500 plus.
We're the 4500 plus necessary to accomplish the need , a 351 stroked would be the go -to engine for every reason in the book.

The OP MAy have his own reasons but I'm guessing they are closely aligned with mine own., I mean why bother with the six if I can't have my power down low?!!!
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #18 by Tbone3366 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:08 pm

1. where can i post pictures as i managed to source a cheap k04 turbo for 150$ with an intercooler, 2nd i love straight 6s, eventually when i find one, will have a 1978-86 bull nose or the ladder with a 6-71TT detroit 2 stroke inline 6 with a fuller 18 speed and have it centurian style 4 door long bed 4x4 with true lockers all around, but for now, i go racing, i tow a 38FT 5th wheel on my f250 and total gcvwr is without the race vehicle 14800 give or take with a full or empty grey/blk water and septic an with the race vehicle (2002 turbocharged duratec 2.5 or the other stroker 2.7l duratec ranger both are crew cab 2wd with avg 3300 lbs) oor about 18000 combined and i have to go over the mountains to san diego or to phoenix etc.... sometimes up to flagstaff from kingman witch have 6% grade for 14 miles so long term torque is key, i blew up my 351w doing this it threw a rod into the second dimension and the 2nd cyl crank bearing got scarred harshly

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #19 by pmuller9 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:15 pm

Upload your pictures to a host site like imgbb.com or dropbox.
Then copy the photo link between the [image][/image] from the above tool bar that you see when in the edit mode.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #20 by Tbone3366 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:39 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Upload your pictures to a host site like imgbb.com or dropbox.
Then copy the photo link between the [image][/image] from the above tool bar that you see when in the edit mode.


sweet, thank you all for the input too, i saw a tad bit refrencing the zf6 and a adapter, does that exist if so i already have a zf6 rn behind a 2002 7.3, (had the turbo die on me so been sitting)

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #21 by pmuller9 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:24 pm

How much boost are you planning on using?

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #22 by sdiesel » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:42 pm

The scant info I go on the ZF 6 came from this board, wherein, a poster mentioned that the modulaR small block bellhousing was similar to the 385 series with some overcome-able differences.
For my money the 420 is sufficient as the incoming torque, will be at or less than 420, and the transmission can easily handle more than stated torque. What killed the 420 was the vibration and thedamfools, turning the power up to levels that were unrealistic for any transmission of the era.
The 470 had a redesign of the case to eliminate some stress risers inherent in the 420 case,again mostly a diesel issue

Heat will need to be controlled, and a suitable clutch found. 11 inch is as large as you can go on either transmission.
At this point and with that weight, a serious investigation into an SAE bellhousing off a stationary or AG application, might, just maybe work with a spicer 7 speed o.d.
But that is a very long road to satisfaction, with a ton of research and possibly a custom flywheel to mate the larger clutch to the transmission. It hurts just thinking of the work needs doing for that...

A super lightweight truck might also be worth investigating, as this is a lot of weight even for a hot breath six....
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #23 by Tbone3366 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:07 pm

as for boost i plan for 5-6 pounds from 1400 to 2500-2700 rpm then have it be about 18 pounds after 2800 rpm, ill just look for the 42 zf trans and use an over drive auxilary in the form of a manual or push button, i spoke with my welder last night and for the sequential setup i should buy the electronics for a 2jz sequential system and just use a vacuum controller (arduino or raspberry pi) to control the valve that shifts between the small and big turboo, as for controller ill be using arduio as that is what i know

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #24 by Tbone3366 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:08 pm

as for cost on paper currently about 7800 if we do just the single turbo with the full forging and reinforcement, about 15000 to do the sequential so not bad and i can probably find parts for cheap anyway so may be less

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #25 by arse_sidewards » Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:12 pm

Tbone3366 wrote:as for cost on paper currently about 7800 if we do just the single turbo with the full forging and reinforcement, about 15000 to do the sequential so not bad and i can probably find parts for cheap anyway so may be less


Well that makes whatever Gramps is gonna charge for the aluminum head sound positively reasonable. :lol:
1994 F150 4x4 8ft, engine is basically stock.

66" leafs, extended radius arms, lockers in both ends, nothing special.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #26 by Tbone3366 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:43 pm

picture of the space ill be clearing out

the truck ill be modding

because i dont usually use the front two tool boxs on each side (the box closest to the door, on both sides) what i can do is have slits drilled in and bent to become seperate grills and have an air catch one to cool the transmission and the other to be the oil pump res and dual filters and cooler for the oil system from the engine and trans tha way i have more space upfront for intercooler and such, my main goals are, ease of maintnance, unique, have the ability to tow anything i desire within reason, and set it apart from the other builds, i want this to be my build not a copy of someone else, that way it keeps that someone elses unique while another unique design pops up

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #27 by Tbone3366 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:44 pm

i can also run metal lines for the oil system under the truck and have fins welded on with a ram air box to cool even further since i usually drive at 55-65 almost always with the trailer

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #28 by Tbone3366 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:47 pm

the rack has long since been removed if anyone asks about it, and i have gooseneck style of trailer not 5th wheel, i was pretty out of it when i posted, ill post a pic of the trailer with the truck probably sunday when i go cleanup and get it ready for my next trip

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #29 by pmuller9 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:49 pm

What are you planning for connecting rods and pistons?

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #30 by Tbone3366 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:00 pm

pmuller9 wrote:What are you planning for connecting rods and pistons?



https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sdm- ... waEALw_wcB

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-h554cp/make/ford

this was what i could find but i am considering doing the windsor 351 pistons and going that route

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #31 by Tbone3366 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:02 pm

ive also read about 352 fe pistons working but im still looking into that

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #32 by pmuller9 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:07 pm

Tbone3366 wrote:https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sdm- ... waEALw_wcB

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-h554cp/make/ford

this was what i could find but i am considering doing the windsor 351 pistons and going that route

Those rods will not work because they are too short and too narrow.
Here are the correct rods.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cpi-b6385ds3b4ah
You need a custom forged piston to fit the rods and hold up to 18 lbs of boost.
Do not use cast pistons. They will break.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #33 by Tbone3366 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:10 pm

pmuller9 wrote:
Tbone3366 wrote:https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sdm- ... waEALw_wcB

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-h554cp/make/ford

this was what i could find but i am considering doing the windsor 351 pistons and going that route

Those rods will not work because they are too short and too narrow.
Here are the correct rods.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cpi-b6385ds3b4ah
You need a custom forged piston to fit the rods and hold up to 18 lbs of boost.
Do not use cast pistons. They will break.



thank you, any specific wrist pins, bearings i need to grab to go along with it and now with change of rods would the ones i have currently selected still be ok or will i need a different set aswell

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #34 by pmuller9 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:21 pm

I'm not sure I understand your question. You selected small block Chevy rods which are way too short (5.7" versus stock 300 6.21") and the big end is too narrow to fit the crank.

The rods I listed have the same big end width as the 300 six (.990") and are .175" longer than the stock 6.21" long rods.
The 300 crank rod journals will need to be turned down from 2.123" to 2.100" and will use SBC bearings.
The .990" wrist pins will be supplied with the custom forged pistons.

You will need to complete the cylinder head first before ordering pistons so you know the combustion chamber volume in order to figure the dish volume in the piston to get the correct compression ratio.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #35 by Tbone3366 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:37 pm

pmuller9 wrote:I'm not sure I understand your question. You selected small block Chevy rods which are way too short (5.7" versus stock 300 6.21") and the big end is too narrow to fit the crank.

The rods I listed have the same big end width as the 300 six (.990") and are .175" longer than the stock 6.21" long rods.
The 300 crank rod journals will need to be turned down from 2.123" to 2.100" and will use SBC bearings.
The .990" wrist pins will be supplied with the custom forged pistons.

You will need to complete the cylinder head first before ordering pistons so you know the combustion chamber volume in order to figure the dish volume in the piston to get the correct compression ratio.


when i searched for the specific parts it showed the listings and was based off of those, im looking to try and get a dished piston set so that my compression is 8.0 or less that way i can bring boost pressure up in the lower rpms to have 9.5:1 at low rpm and higher compression such as 11-12:1 at high rpm, i will only run 91 in the truck

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #36 by pmuller9 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:45 pm

That's because there are no forged pistons specific to the 300 six.

I use custom forgings from Autotec which are a 4032 aluminum alloy for the 300 six naturally aspirated engines.
They presently retail for $550 for a set of six.

If you want a more malleable alloy that will hold up to more pressure you would look at a 2618 aluminum alloy piston.
They cost more than the 4032 alloy pistons.
We use Diamond pistons for our turbo/supercharged applications.

I use BWE ZGS piston rings exclusively for less blowby.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #37 by Tbone3366 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:16 pm

pmuller9 wrote:That's because there are no forged pistons specific to the 300 six.

I use custom forgings from Autotec which are a 4032 aluminum alloy for the 300 six naturally aspirated engines.
They presently retail for $550 for a set of six.

If you want a more malleable alloy that will hold up to more pressure you would look at a 2618 aluminum alloy piston.
They cost more than the 4032 alloy pistons.
We use Diamond pistons for our turbo/supercharged applications.

I use BWE ZGS piston rings exclusively for less blowby.


do you have a link to a couple reputable 2618 based pistons? im trying to get as many options as possible

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #38 by Tbone3366 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:32 pm

also does anyone have a dyno sheet with the hp and torque gain running the 1.73 scorpion rockers for the 85 and newer heads that have the pedestal mount? but stock efi system maybe an intake upgrade but thats it

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #39 by Wesman07 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:03 pm

I have engine analysis desktop dyno. I can run some combinations for you.
In-lines we trust

86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #40 by Tbone3366 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:51 pm

Wesman07 wrote:I have engine analysis desktop dyno. I can run some combinations for you.


if you can, for stock config 16 degree base timing works for me, the efi stock exhaust, with just 8ft of 2 1/2 inch pipe from the o2, no cats or anything,

can you run with the stock lift
1.7 lift
then 1.73 from the scorpion kit

this is hugely appreciated as to what powerband could be like, most of my time is at sea level

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #41 by Tbone3366 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:55 pm

forgot to ask, could you do the stock setup with the 16 degree base timing and set the cam advance 2 4 and 6 degrees advanced from straight up

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #42 by pmuller9 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:33 pm

Tbone3366 wrote:do you have a link to a couple reputable 2618 based pistons? im trying to get as many options as possible


Randy at Racetec has done several sets of pistons for the 300 six and can also supply rings.
The RaceTec pistons are 2618 alloy while the Autotec are the less expensive 4032 alloy.
You will need to make sure you specify RaceTec 2618 alloy pistons.
http://racetecpistons.com/

Bruce at BWE will also work with you and supply pistons and rings.
Ihttp://bwepistonrings.com/

Ross pistons is another good company with reasonably priced custom pistons.
https://www.rosspistons.com/

The pistons for the 300 six do not require valve reliefs and just need a simple round dish.
They also do not need to have offset wrist pins.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #43 by Wesman07 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:38 pm

Pmuller9

What were your thinking the seat duration on the cam would be?

Static or dynamic compression target?
In-lines we trust

86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #44 by Tbone3366 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:09 pm

Wesman07 wrote:Pmuller9

What were your thinking the seat duration on the cam would be?

Static or dynamic compression target?


static and at the stock seat timing, im looking to make torque very evenly and as low possible

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #45 by pmuller9 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:11 pm

Wesman07 wrote:Pmuller9

What were your thinking the seat duration on the cam would be?

Static or dynamic compression target?


As you know the 300 six doesn't have a problem making torque off idle with most of the smaller aftermarket cams so the goal in this project is to have enough intake duration to make good power to 4000 rpm and still maintain high torque off idle.

The Crower 210/200 turbo cam should fit that bill.
It has a 268 seat duration and if the cam is installed 4 degrees advanced with an 8:1 static compression ratio the Dynamic compression ratio will be 6.5 which is a good place to be for turbocharging.


Image

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #46 by Tbone3366 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:16 am

pmuller9 wrote:
Wesman07 wrote:Pmuller9

What were your thinking the seat duration on the cam would be?

Static or dynamic compression target?


As you know the 300 six doesn't have a problem making torque off idle with most of the smaller aftermarket cams so the goal in this project is to have enough intake duration to make good power to 4000 rpm and still maintain high torque off idle.

The Crower 210/200 turbo cam should fit that bill.
It has a 268 seat duration and if the cam is installed 4 degrees advanced with an 8:1 static compression ratio the Dynamic compression ratio will be 6.5 which is a good place to be for turbocharging.


Image


ok so rather than going with a turbo that large i could downsize a good bit where it peaks out at say 3600 that way at 4000 it wouldnt go up or down and just maintain it or be a slight dip down, im thinking maybe pull the inducer from an hx35 and run a slightly smaller turbine ending that will allow for that range, probably be 48-51mm

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #47 by Wesman07 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:57 am

This is the estimates for:

Head:

Carb head that has been ported with 1.84/1.6 valves (I used real flow numbers)
8:1 static compression

Intake:

Factory EFI manifold (there are some inaccuracies. The program does not factor in the split plenum when using boost.)

Exhaust:

I kept the EFI manifolds and factored 800 cfm for an unrestricted exhaust. This is probably high but the restriction should be in the manifolds.

Cam:

Crower turbo cam as specified
1.6 ratio rockers
The 1.73 rockers only added 2 hp.

Turbo: (Pmuller9 Please double check me)

I used specs for a Borg Warner 200SXE
Peak efficiency 75%
Peak CFM efficiency 350
Pressure ratio at peak efficiency 2.06
50% air to air inter cooler
Waste gate set to 18 psi

Running conditions:

91 octane fuel

Image Image Image
In-lines we trust

86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #48 by Tbone3366 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:48 pm

Wesman07 wrote:This is the estimates for:

Head:

Carb head that has been ported with 1.84/1.6 valves (I used real flow numbers)
8:1 static compression

Intake:

Factory EFI manifold (there are some inaccuracies. The program does not factor in the split plenum when using boost.)

Exhaust:

I kept the EFI manifolds and factored 800 cfm for an unrestricted exhaust. This is probably high but the restriction should be in the manifolds.

Cam:

Crower turbo cam as specified
1.6 ratio rockers
The 1.73 rockers only added 2 hp.

Turbo: (Pmuller9 Please double check me)

I used specs for a Borg Warner 200SXE
Peak efficiency 75%
Peak CFM efficiency 350
Pressure ratio at peak efficiency 2.06
50% air to air inter cooler
Waste gate set to 18 psi

Running conditions:

91 octane fuel

Image Image Image


assuming we give a 10-15% drop to account for drivetrain losses that would still be perfect, and it reflects the 12 v and 24v 5.9 cummins motors, assuming this was 1:1 with prgram accuracy, now its not carbed so i dont see split manifold being a problem in fuel delivery, but im not sure on the EFI system, i also am now running the f250 off of a 2003 ranger 4l computer with quarter horse, it runs a little better, i went from 137hp and 250 torque on the dyno to 138 hp and 276 torque 177hp, i did play with it a little bit and had to mount a pickup on the timing bracket, i didnt run the injectors til after and for ignition i copied the hex code for the tfi and moved it over to the 4l computer, so the way the tfi on this motor runs is around the air fuel mix, or atleast thats how it looks in tunerpro RT, when load increases it increases the advance til it starts getting out of the afr range then stops advancing, but if it isnt out of afr itll continue to advance, when you let off the throttle timing drops to base timing unless at 2400 or up then it retards to 7 degrees, would i be able to dump the bin file and xdf on here or would that have to be drop box?

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #49 by pmuller9 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:10 pm

The Borg Warner 200SXE 52mm turbo compressor map show a peak efficiency of 76%. Close enough.
The MatchBot calculator shows results close to your graph.

The reason for using a 52 to 54 mm compressor for the larger turbo is if you are going to work the turbo hard at 3500 rpm, you are still operating near the center peak efficiency island on the compressor and the oulet air temps will be cooler than if you push a smaller compressor closer to the choke zone.

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Re: looking for best in class towing for a gas 6

Post #50 by Tbone3366 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:29 pm

pmuller9 wrote:The Borg Warner 200SXE 52mm turbo compressor map show a peak efficiency of 76%. Close enough.
The MatchBot calculator shows results close to your graph.

The reason for using a 52 to 54 mm compressor for the larger turbo is if you are going to work the turbo hard at 3500 rpm, you are still operating near the center peak efficiency island on the compressor and the oulet air temps will be cooler than if you push a smaller compressor closer to the choke zone.


sweet, ok so were on to something, k04 for the low side and the 200sxe 52mm for the high side, next would it be better to run independent dual exhaust after both turbos or would a collector be ok? the 4.0 computer works pretty good, we might have found another way for a proper turbo setup. the k04 being plentiful and relatively cheap from the right shop, if a sequential turbo splitter that can be mated to the existing system can be had for cheap then i think that 15K should drop down to maybe 11-12K and gives a buffer for more hardware, i will be talking to my local machine shop and draw up a sequential manifold, im thinking of designing one in cad that is akin to a twin scroll trubo exducer.

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