A "run of the mill" 200 project.

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Derangedfords90
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A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #1 by Derangedfords90 » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:05 pm

Hey all,
So I just introduced myself a week ago here and have been doing some research before I post.

My goals are:
150whp minimum
Same fuel mileage (around 17 mpg)
Under $1000 budget

What I have:
1980 fairmont wagon
200ci i6 (appears original, no mods)
C3 (appears to be reman. Shifts well)

What I plan to do:
Autolite 2100 swap
T04E .57 trim eBay turbo (or similar)
Run 6 psi regularly. When I get saucy bring it to 10 psi.
C3 shift mod (from some light research it appears turbocoupe and merkur guys modify these things to hold up behind 2.3ts, so I figure a low horse 200t will be fine)
302 valvesprings (for insurance)

My plan is to do the Powervalve mod on the autolite and attempt to keep the main jets at 12-13:1 at cruise and drop to 11:1 under boost. I haven't figured out where my base timing should be. I have read that some lock out the mechanical advance and just use the vacuum advance. I'll try to go with this method as well to help with the cruise mileage. I figure if I can't get enough retard out of the stock distributor for boost I'll put a water meth jet in the carb hat.

I want to try boost referencing the stock fuel pump first and go from there on fuel.

From the experienced guys, what kind of hurdles can I expect from this plan? Do you see any holes? Any other recommendations? Are my goals achievable? Thanks in advance.



AlphaZ
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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #2 by AlphaZ » Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:19 am

I don't know much about the 200s but my opinion so far is that the issues you will face is the budget and the mileage you expect.
When I started mine I really got nickel and dimed on little stuff I forgot I needed.
The old school rule of thumb is you lose 10% economy when a turbo goes on, don't know if that's changed much.


Vehicle:
'69 F100 with TwinTurbo 300-6

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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #3 by Derangedfords90 » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:41 am

Ok,
So I picked up some plywood because I'm going to make an adapter for the autolite 2100. I know they make $50 adapters, but I kinda want to do this old school and see how it works.

I picked up a transgo shift kit for the c3....it's probably the simplest shift kit I have ever seen. Just a few Springs haha. We will see how the c3 lasts.

My plan for the hot side is to gut the cat that hangs off the exhaust manifold, cap the outlet, and mount a flange to the side of the cat, like a big Ole exhaust plenum pre-turbo.

I am planning on going non-intercooled and just making a DIY water/meth kit, but I'll have to make a price comparison. I was thinking of ABS piping for a cold side because it doesn't hold heat and is resistant to heat and withstands a minimum pressure of 100psi. My alternative is welding some 2in conduit pipe into a cold side, or ordering a cold side. I'm still trying for under $1000.

What I still haven't figured out is where to start with my timing. Does anyone have any input as to where they started with timing? I haven't gotten much input as far as specifics when it comes to the timing and fuel.

Thanks in advance!



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #4 by Derangedfords90 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:36 am

I was over complicating the build. Decided to not use the 2 barrel. I'm almost done. Here's what I have done so far.

-used the stock exhaust manifold, cut the cat and rotated so the u-pipe was perpendicular to the engine.
-made a carb hat out of a 2 1/2 OD exhaust pipe reducer and some 3/16 plate for a sealing surface
-locked the mechanical advance on the stock distributor. I will be starting my tuning with my base timing at 20*. Keeping vacuum advance for driveability/fuel mileage. That puts my cruise/idle timing at about 42*. Does anyone have any experience with that?
-used hardware store ABS pipe for the rest of the cold side.

Still on the "to-do list"
-finish down pipe/connect with stock exhaust.
-boost reference fuel pump
-install wideband
-install boost gauge
-adjust wastegate
-see how the 1946 carb does at stock settings and tune from there.

My total cost so far:
$340 -turbo, flanges, oil feed/drain, shipping
$45 - cold side
$0 - hot side
$30- boost gauge
$150- wideband (which I will be removing for future projects once dialed in)
$60 random fittings/ hoses/ clamps
$18 c3 transgo kit
$10 trans pan gasket and filter
$18 cooling fan controller (already had a cheapo flexalite)
$20 BOV
$18 valve cover and oil pan gaskets
$69 boost actuated dump valve
...I think that is it...
So according to my math thats $778 so far. My budget goal is still good....however I'm not including tools that I had to upgrade since I started the project. My harbor freight welder wasn't cutting it so I got a hobart handler 140 and got some other things, but those can be applied to future projects too. For the sake of the argument though I'm still under $1000. Hope to drive it soon and report back.



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #5 by Derangedfords90 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:41 am

Some pictures. Go ahead and judge the welding. I know I'm bad.
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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #6 by powerband » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:09 pm

what kind of hurdles can I expect from this plan? Do you see any holes? Any other recommendations? Are my goals achievable? Thanks in advance.

Alright, lets hear it for self - fabbed performance!. Good progress on your Forced Induction project and even better it's in a wagon. . Currently I have forced induction 250 project and have a few different approaches:

The centrifugal advance slot on your dist' is "13" so it is @ 26 degrees advance at max (2X crank). I leave centrifugal working with vacuum advance and reasonable static advance for unboosted cruise. The vacuum advance is lost with boost so total is @ 26 centrifugal plus static. May not work as well as a digital boost referenced ignition box but it will simply get a Forced Induction setup up and running fairly safely.

I use a 2Bbl adapter and Holley 2300 series 350 cfm 2Bbl which is basically 1/2 a standard Holley 4Bbl and the parts and info for blow-thru modification are readily available.

.. looking forward to more of your build and suggestions for mine.

have fun


"Take time to stop and smell... The roadkill..."

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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #7 by Derangedfords90 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:26 pm

Powerband, I'm admittedly confused at your last post.

I decided to use a "boost rule of thumb" which is 2 degrees or retard for every psi of boost (IIRC). So factory centrifugal is 18+ 13 + 10 base(I had 18R on one side and 13R on the other). Which is 41 degrees max centrifugal advance. I then subtracted 12 degrees ( 6psi x 2 deg. Retard) which is 29 degrees. Then I figured I would step it back a little until I got everything dialed in so that I don't melt anything. That's why I stepped it back 9 degrees to 20 degrees advance. My ultimate plan once I get my AFR under control is to advance incrementally until i start pinging, then back it off 2-3 degrees to stay safe. I only plan to run 87 octane if I can so I'm trying to keep a lot of the timing out of it.

So my question is, what is your static timing if you maintain centrifugal advance? If your distributor is 26 deg. of centrifugal advance (or 31 in my case), then do you set your static timing at TDC so that you only have 26 deg. of advance at WOT? If so that only gives you 22 deg. at idle through the vacuum advance. Then if you wanted to go lower you would have to retard static timing even farther. In my case (if I'm correct) the centrifugal Advance was 31 degrees total, and my goal is to keep the total timing at 20 degrees under full boost. So my static timing would be 11 degrees retarded if I kept it. Not healthy.

I figured the loss down low from the fixed timing would be mitigated by boost. Also I thought it would be safer too. I'm curious to hear your thoughts.



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #8 by powerband » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:12 pm

So factory centrifugal is 18+ 13 + 10 base(I had 18R on one side and 13R on the other). Which is 41 degrees max centrifugal advance.

Try all the math again after this: Distributors turn at one-half the speed of the crankshaft.

18 (at dizzy) X 2 =36 (at crank) + 13 + 10 base would be @ 59 degrees at the crankshaft.

http://www.oldcarsweekly.com/restoratio ... ing_timing

have fun


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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #9 by Derangedfords90 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:20 pm

Okay I know now what was confusing. In the first post that you wrote you said that I had a "13" slot. I didn't recognize that because I was literally reading the numbers stamped on the top of the distributor plate. If it is truly a "13" distributor then yes it should be 26 degrees of centrifugal timing. If that is true, total timing would be 36 degrees at max RPM. Minus my 12 for boost, that's still 24 degrees. So fixing the distributor 2 20 degrees is still satisfactory since I have the vacuum advance. I am unsure of whether my method is going to work. Also same question from before how do you set static timing with 26 total degrees and you're trying to back off 12 degrees. Again your static timing would be 2 degrees after top dead. I am mainly trying to figure this out so I can figure out if I need to go get another stock distributor LOL

I wish I had known to measure what this lot is before I reassembled the distributor.



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First Fox
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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #10 by First Fox » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:32 am

Hey, looking good man. Looks like you are well on your way to having positive manifold pressure in your small six.

A couple things, modifying that Holley single barrel is a PITA, but it can be done. In order to enlarge the PVCR you must remove the carb and disassemble it. I must have had mine on and off 15 times maybe more. If I had to do it again, I would buy a cheap carb adapter and modify a used 2 bbl Holley or weber carb.

I had my timing locked at about 26 degrees and retained manifold vacccum advance for cruise and idle. It ran great, never got hot and with aseriously over geared final drive got mileage numbers that would make you think I were lying about it.

And yes, your welding is ugly. So was mine as I thought myself to weld on my 200 turbo project. It will improve with practice and with better equipment. But what you have done looks perfectly functional and is much closer to fruition than the guy who is waiting till next year to learn to weld perfect beads and is instead telling people online what can't be done.

Much respect for your efforts and using the football manifold is awesome! Well done, and keep it up!


My garage:

1962 Falcon. 170/Auto.
1965 Fairlane. Twin turbocharged 289/4 speed.
1965 Thunderbird. 390/Auto.
1980 Fairmont. Turbocharged 200, 260 Comp cam/T5 and '93 Mustang steering/suspension.
1981 F-100. 300/4 speed OD. I use this primarily to haul my cars home after I modify them and they break.
1987 Thunderbird Turbocoupe. 2.3/T5. Porche designed 16 valve, twin cam cylinder head.


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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #11 by Derangedfords90 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:38 am

Thanks for the support! Yeah, I still have the 2 barrel autolite in case I can't get the 1946 to function. I figure learning on the 1946 will be a good experience.



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #12 by Derangedfords90 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:50 am

So I finished the engineering portion on the turbo project. Nowe it's going to be the fine tuning portion. Stuff I got done today was building my downpipe/boost referenced dump valve, and boost referencing the fuel pump. Also I hooked up my wideband and boost gauge. Took the car out to get a base line for tuning the carb and I got 3psi so far (luckily since my AFR was 14.5:1 at that pressure). I took a lot of pressure out at the wastegate so I wouldn't melt it down on the first drive. Pictures of the downpipe and how I boost referenced the fuel pump.
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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #13 by Derangedfords90 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:51 am

I am now realizing that the pictures get posted in the order you add them. So I apologize for them being in the incorrect order.



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #14 by Derangedfords90 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:54 am

Pics of the car. It's ugly and I love it.... also I forgot to mention, the AC still works. That was my goal. Now to get it fine tuned.
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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #15 by First Fox » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:16 am

I modified a new stock mechanical fuel pump the same way. Mine ran to 20 psi and the diaphragm never failed and it raised fuel pressure like it was supposed to, but Linc said that his was tearing at 10 or 12 I believe. His problem may have just been an old worn out pump.

Have you figured out the PVCR circuit in that carb yet? It is a huge pain to do tweak it, and you will have to remove a sealed plug and tap the channel for an access plug.

Keep it up man, you are close. :)


My garage:

1962 Falcon. 170/Auto.
1965 Fairlane. Twin turbocharged 289/4 speed.
1965 Thunderbird. 390/Auto.
1980 Fairmont. Turbocharged 200, 260 Comp cam/T5 and '93 Mustang steering/suspension.
1981 F-100. 300/4 speed OD. I use this primarily to haul my cars home after I modify them and they break.
1987 Thunderbird Turbocoupe. 2.3/T5. Porche designed 16 valve, twin cam cylinder head.


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Derangedfords90
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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #16 by Derangedfords90 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:17 pm

I don't remember where I got the idea to boost reference the fuel pump like that, but it might have been looking at your 250 write-up. I don't know.

No I haven't gotten to messing with the carb yet. I just wanted to get a base line first so I knew where to go. I probably should have put a gauge on the fuel pump to see what it was doing under pressure.

Did you change the powervalves to one that actuated with a lower vacuum? Or did you keep it the same?



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #17 by First Fox » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:53 pm

Derangedfords90 wrote:
Did you change the powervalves to one that actuated with a lower vacuum? Or did you keep it the same?


Unfortunately with that carburetor, the powervalve is a piston type instead of the more familiar Holley diaphragm type and I not as tunable. The good thing is that it is quite difficult to damage.

All additional fueling on my setup was from the powervalve circuit and I actually leaned the main jet out a little in the million times my carb was apart for tuning to get a nice lean cruise. By the time I was done I believe I ended up opening the PVCR to almost .100" to get enough fuel under boost and was running something in the neighbourhood of a 62 main. I remember also choking down the high speed airbleed with some small wire to get enough fuel under boost.

These are the reasons I would use a more tunable setup if I did it again, I was more trying to prove it could be done because Linc was so close with his.


My garage:

1962 Falcon. 170/Auto.
1965 Fairlane. Twin turbocharged 289/4 speed.
1965 Thunderbird. 390/Auto.
1980 Fairmont. Turbocharged 200, 260 Comp cam/T5 and '93 Mustang steering/suspension.
1981 F-100. 300/4 speed OD. I use this primarily to haul my cars home after I modify them and they break.
1987 Thunderbird Turbocoupe. 2.3/T5. Porche designed 16 valve, twin cam cylinder head.


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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #18 by Derangedfords90 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:11 am

Some guys are telling me to put an extension on the air bleed to help richen it under boost/ get a better signal. If you choked it down, were you leaving it in the stook position? Or are these guys sending me on a goose chase?



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #19 by Derangedfords90 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:40 am

I made a vent extention to the charge pipe and my AFR @ 3psi is 12:1 I guess I got lucky it dropped that much. I'm going to step up a few jets and see where it is at, then mess with the timing.



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #20 by xctasy » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:27 pm

If your turbo is the same rating curve as Lincs200's

Image


Then I'd just look at the fuel enrichment via the stock power valve.

Webers 32/36 dgav and 38 DGAS used the same as Holley 1908/1940/1945/1946 power valve...A little lvave in the base of the floar bowl, with a "sprung" rod to actuate.

The way to gage its operation is to do this.

See http://forums.ihpartsamerica.com/showthread.php?t=3153

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

It shows the full routing of the power valve, except its supply to the emulsion circuits. The black line on the photos shows the upper path in more detail. You can measure fuel enrichment durring transition, and by cutting coils and drilling PVCR's, you can get transitional fuel enrichment.




The second way to way to spike in tranition boost air fuel ratio is to slam the float level down to ensure the well tubes areate the fuel less.The issues were dealt with by Lotus in the 1981 Lotus Espirt Turbo, where increased boost pressure is rammed into the float bowl as a means of boost referencing the Dellorto's float bowl by applying a column of moving air to the float bowl. I'll send you a picture of it form David Vizards 1988 article.


AH, found it elseware


Image

http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=121925

Using carbs because i have them, No mod rings, look at the picture of my carbs that turbo baja posted, from that an fitting a 3/8" hardline goes into my boost stream to catch a good flow of pressurized air.






Less holes, richer, more holes, leaner. The hydrostatic gradient is midly pushed beyond the normal 14.7 lb per square inch at sea level, and that adds some extra richness. Most well tubes are 4 to five 25 thou holes deep, but on other carbs like Webers, they are much more sensitive emulsion tubes.

The issue with the one barrel feeding one 1420 cc log is that air fuel ratio supply to each six cylinders goes uneven past 9 pounds per squaring inch of boost. The boost ratio is forcing about, at just 180 hp, at the very least, about 650 cc/minute of fuel into 1420 cc log, and the individual deamands of each cylinder are not met, as the 60 thou globules of atomised gasoline have mass and velocity which ensures they miss there target due to fuel standoff in an aproximately 1.65" diameter 22 inch long log. Of that 770 cc's, about six 100 cc intake runners recieve varting amounts of fuel.


Adding extra boost and extra fuel will just make matters worse. So keeping boost down, but adding an excess fuel factor, will help you preempt an excessive lean out.

Its the log intake that makes the detonation occur.

Linc had the plan to Autolite 2100 the intake, and add side runners to get the air fuel flow efficency closer to 100 % equal between cylinders. Stock, the figures at peak flow of about 125 cfm vary 15% between all six cylinders, with cylinders 5 and 2 leaning out due to the intake design. 6-5-4-3-2-1 figures of something like 90-85-100-100-85-90. It then gets a whole lot worse at 9 pounds boost, as the atomised air fuel has "weght" and globes of atomised gas are like 0.80 cd drag balls, like little Kenwoths colliding down the turnpike. It gets terminal at 13 to 25 psi, Flow efficeny is the individual intake cfm verses the peak cfm of the best cylindr flow bare. As the boost ratio climbs, the individual cylinder to cylinder flow efficencys will vary by more than 30%, with from 6-5-4-3-2-1 figures of something like 85-75-100-100-70-70 from the flow net modelling. Adding more fuel at lower boost won't help much, but at higher boost, it will.


Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/About-Us.html

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JackFish
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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #21 by JackFish » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:38 am

The accelerator pump on there is adjustable via the u-shape bend in the external rod in front.
Squeeze it in for more fuel.
Just scanned the thread and didn't see it mentioned here.


1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
1978 Ford Fairmont station wagon
Yup, I bought another one.
1996 Chevy Caprice 9C1 (3)
1999 Dodge Ram 2500

Derangedfords90
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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #22 by Derangedfords90 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:38 am

Xstacy, wow. That was a lot of great info. I've had to read and re-read it about 3 times.

Since the efficiency of the cylinders is so different, what should my target AFR be? I've been trying for 11.5:1 at peak boost/RPM. When I extended the vent tube to the charge pipe I got down to 12:1ish @5psi with no other modification to the carb. I'm going to try to place the end in a "choke point" at the entry of the carb hat to maybe add more pressure to the bowl through the natural venturi effect of that choke point.

I don't plan on going past 10psi, as I don't have the fuel system to support more than that.

This is the efficiency map I found through Google for my turbo model. It's a T04E .57 trim. I figured I would only flow 20lb max with the stock carb and head at 6-10psi. I know this turbo is a little big but that's ok. It builds boost fine.
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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #23 by Derangedfords90 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:13 pm

Moving the vent tube in the choke point of the carb hat did not do anything. I will be moving to drill the power valve circuit and/or jetting up.



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #24 by xctasy » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:04 am

In a normal Ford I6, with a conventional 1 bbl carb, you might get 2.5 numbers of air fuel variance toggling between cylinders from 1000 to 5000 rpm on a dyno run. if you use an isolated runner exhaust, and individual wide bands or you can actually check it easy.

As boost ratio goes above 2, Its nothing to be running 15 (stoich) at cyl 3 and 4, and 10 at any one of the other cylinders; conventional thought says Cylinder 6 is supposed to be richer, but no 1 is supposed to be leaner at 15 in unfavourable conditions.

And then there is fuel drop out which then creates a psychotic swing. Drag cars are easy; you just read plugs or cylinder pyros, and adjust out excessive rich or lean.

Ford subtly changed the log from its C1 coded 144/170 days to the highly evolved and refined D8 dog turd you are now turboing...even if you moderted boost, fuel in the cylinder might drop out and not be even.

Best ever non V8 in line ntake manifold? The EAO Pinto 2000. Books exist on that one, and the turbo guys in Eurpe find the 2 liter Pinto makes more power 2-bbl 34 DTML than port EFI. The later 2-bbl Lima 2300 close second, lot or work went into getting inform efficency in those. EFI Turbo intake is great with a four corner center squirter 660 or 700 carb, But the Ford small I6 intake can only be approximately modled in a flow net diagram, and the tendancy for air fuel mix drop out defined and variance cylinder to cylinder can be done only to a degree. Its the ultimate log jam head.

The guys at Ford just dynoed that in Australia, the result was the 2V head. In Argentina, the result was the 2-BBL Holley 221 SP and Solex 34 2-bbl 188 cube ME heads. In the USA, the V8's were the step up option, so a 2V head just wasn't in the hunt. Best result for flow efficeincy was the EO to E1 castings.

Here's proof of Dearborns smarts.

1978 2-bbl experimental head with calibrated valve springs, and sensor for dyno tuning the EGR. Look at how much bigger the log is, and how the 2150 Motor craft base lookes like it gets fuel to the cylinders quicker by having each barrel almost an inch appart.

Image

Ther never was an M code 200 2-bbl....it was just another experiment. That year, they down graded the rod...to cast iron...

Each time Dearborn made changes, they increased carb inlet , runner size and volume, and added more integrated EGR ports that did away with the crack prone ones, took the manifold pickups to the front between 2 and 1 and got things pretty even.


Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/About-Us.html

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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #25 by Derangedfords90 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:55 am

So I drilled the powervalve holes up one size in the brass fitting. I hoped it would help my AFR. it did not. I guess I'll have to drill the PV to emulsion tube circuit. My emulsion tube only has 3 levels (two holes on either side) so that is ok I suppose.

Access to the PVCR is through a plugged hole. Once I drill the plug material (some sort of lead solder I supposed), then drill the circuit, how do I seal that hole again? Thread it and put a bolt and gasket in there? Re-solder it? If I do that how do I prevent the solder from dropping into the circuit? A bolt? Thanks again in advance.



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #26 by First Fox » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:29 am

I drilled it and ran a small npt tap into the hole and and used a plug. Inwas only able to get a few threads cut on it however as the tap would run into the channel restrictor orifice. This is what I was talking about as far as the adjusent of fuel on this carburetor, it is NOT user friendly haha.

Fwiw, I also had to epoxy a tube into the top of the power valve and run a boost signal there from the carb as the valve would not reliably stay open at higher boost with just the internal vaccuum passage. Just something to look for.


My garage:

1962 Falcon. 170/Auto.
1965 Fairlane. Twin turbocharged 289/4 speed.
1965 Thunderbird. 390/Auto.
1980 Fairmont. Turbocharged 200, 260 Comp cam/T5 and '93 Mustang steering/suspension.
1981 F-100. 300/4 speed OD. I use this primarily to haul my cars home after I modify them and they break.
1987 Thunderbird Turbocoupe. 2.3/T5. Porche designed 16 valve, twin cam cylinder head.


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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #27 by xctasy » Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:52 pm

Good luck with that.

I've never been into the Holley 1bbl to modify it in any way.They call these carbs simple, but I don't, its got lots of features and changes.

I think I got mixed up, on the 1945/1946 series, its the Accelerator pump circuit which lookes like a Weber 1-bbl or DG/DFAV series power valve.

To cover the PVCR driilings after opening them ( or it)...the other 2-bbl Holleys carbs have moved to another kind of 4150-4500 Holley type. The Holley 1946 is pre 1957 carb traditional, like the 2210. Not like this 2-bbl. But same idea applies. Like a dentist, drill and fill. If there is just enough room to run a tap into it, then it'll work.



So everyone else knows, for the later 1981 onwards 1946C carb, this is the full schemtic, although its missing a few numbers from 71 onwards....

You have to push the Magnifying glass icon to get it in full size.

http://s1215.photobucket.com/user/xecute6/media/xecute6115/Fig%209%20Holley%201946%20carburetor.jpg.html
I guess everything has a number if your eyes are good enough.

35 Power valve body ,
37 Power valve pin,
40 Power valve spring


It (the power valve pin) seats into

48, the main body assembly.

Its cross driiled at the base to a power valve channel restriction in the main body.

IMHO, I don't agree with one point of distribution to six cylinders...adding fuel is just like telling six grid iron players to charge six file into a Oone person single file access culvert. Someones gonna get hurt if the ante is upped.

So I guess I have a scratchy response to spikeing power valve supply, and Ive never understood the 1945/46 carb. I grew up on ICH/ICT Weber style carbs...the 1-bbl VNT Zeniths and 1-bbl Bendix Strombergs. The 1966 AP5 225 Valiant we had we never touch the Holley 1929 or 1931 it had. Same with my old 81. Vauxhalls, Holdens, all the time.

Holley 1-bbls and Carter YFA's are actually very different to Webers, and I just leave them alone, and never rebuild them because of the way that US 1-bbls change. The layers upon layers of new info specific to fixing this carb really require a specfic video like the Chrysler 1945 1-bbl video.


oh, and I forgot to add this....dough!

MechRick wrote:One thing that must be done is the power valve channels must be restricted to lean out the carb and allow it to work with the smaller displacement engine. This is done by drilling and tapping the channels and installing brass restrictors. I buy 6-32 brass plugs (Fastenal is a good source) and drill them.

P5060018.jpg

Clutch and flywheel arrived this week, so installation will happen this weekend.


And this video is good, but its a 1945, not a 1946.

1945=war
1946= Peace.

MechRick wrote:One thing that must be done is the power valve channels must be restricted to lean out the carb and allow it to work with the smaller displacement engine. This is done by drilling and tapping the channels and installing brass restrictors. I buy 6-32 brass plugs (Fastenal is a good source) and drill them.

P5060018.jpg

Clutch and flywheel arrived this week, so installation will happen this weekend.
Last edited by xctasy on Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #28 by Derangedfords90 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:14 pm

First fox, now I see that you had written that. Ntp pipe plug it is. Did you eventually seal it up when you got into your AFR range?.



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #29 by First Fox » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:20 pm

I never saw a need to do anything other than the pipe plug as it never leaked and the carb was meant to be a temporary endeavour anyway. I just wanted to finish what lincs200 started and get the carb operable under boost and I did.

For the record, I agree with Dean 100 percent on the single carb issue and had intended to work up a stock log with multiple carbs with boost and I hurt myself and never got back on it. If multiple carbs are beyond your comofrt zone, a 2 bbk Holley or progressive weber would be a great choice. As stated, this carb is an old design and as you are figuring g out is a pain in the ass to tune. The two carbs mentioned above can be tuned in minutes with the still mounted on the intake.

But with that being said, if you are set in using what you have, it can work. PM me if you'd like and I will send you my phone number. I can probably help you via text/or phone if you need any help.


My garage:

1962 Falcon. 170/Auto.
1965 Fairlane. Twin turbocharged 289/4 speed.
1965 Thunderbird. 390/Auto.
1980 Fairmont. Turbocharged 200, 260 Comp cam/T5 and '93 Mustang steering/suspension.
1981 F-100. 300/4 speed OD. I use this primarily to haul my cars home after I modify them and they break.
1987 Thunderbird Turbocoupe. 2.3/T5. Porche designed 16 valve, twin cam cylinder head.


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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #30 by xctasy » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:27 pm

:beer:

Yep, what he said...

But you know, its all about whatcha wunna doooo!

I say, darn it,

" work the Holley
work work the Holley,
, my 0ne barrels soo fast its gonna hurt somebody...

I can see it now..one jug in hand, DF90 declared "Duno Y Lincs melted his at 20 pounds doing 13's. I'm at 9 pounds doing 12s..."

oh, and see ABOVE I forgot to add the carb PVCR plug you can use for the Concealment Plug...dough!

"MechRick" 6-32 brass plugs (Fastenal is a good source) and drill them.

And the Mopar video.

The 1946 is pretty cool, but it requires someone smarter than me to make it sit up and beg for more...GO GORRILLA BALLS DF90!


Concealment Plugs are like swim suits, what they show is interesting, what they conceal is VITAL.


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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #31 by Derangedfords90 » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:10 pm

Thanks again for the info. TBH, I am essentially using this carb as a learning experience. I have an autolite 2100 that I could (and seemingly should) use for the application. But then I am nearly certain I would have to cut the hood, and I don't want that.

I am considering plugging the High Speed Air Bleed first before opening up the PVCR and adjusting cruise with the idle circuit... Just to see how much of an improvement I will get with the stock PVCR. That way if it works, I won't have to do anything, and if it doesn't I can reverse it and dig into the PVCR. Plus, I dont feel like pulling the whole carb again right now (because, though I am ambitious, I am lazy....oxymoronically).

First Fox, I'll PM you. Would be good to have someone on hand that knows this thing. Even google images garnishes little on these carbs.



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #32 by Derangedfords90 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:56 am

I plugged the HSAB with a paperclip and folded it around the top of the carb rim. Choke stops on it but that's ok. I'll find a more permanent solution. I'm at around 11.4:1 max under boost. Only issue I have now is a tip-in stumble. I assume because the booster dumps fuel and the accelerator pump adds to the flooding for a split second. I tried leaning out the idle control also but I can't seem to get it happy enough to idle. I suppose I'll have to mess with it, until then I'm just going to rely on the transfer slot and Crack the throttle for a high idle.



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #33 by Derangedfords90 » Wed Jan 25, 2017 5:57 pm

Also, I put a clear fuel filter pre-carb, and am curious as to why the thing seems mostly empty most of the time(at idle). I am thinking it is due to the lack of flow and high heat. I think this may be attributing to my low speed running issues. I am not positive. I think I am going to start with the low speed idle circuit first.



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #34 by Derangedfords90 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:43 am

I had an epiphany.... the reason the car was bucking and trying to shut off at idle was the timing. 24 degrees advance of base + 22 degrees of vacuum advance? WAYYY too much at idle. So I moved the vacuum advance feed over to the ported vacuum port and she runs like she was factory. Only bad thing is that now it's a little more laggy, but I guess staying safe is better than performance in this situation.

I have also observed that when the accelerator pump has depleted, my AFR rises a bit, so I think I'll end up doing the PVCR circuit drilling anyway to compensate, but overall (if you just wanted to slap a turbo on a 200 i6) the recipe is, plug the HSAB, lock out the timing, and boost reference the fuel pump. Thanks everyone for the help. I'll keep updating this as I continue to DD this to work. Oh, and I put 87 octane in it. I'm probably going to build some sort of detonation detector and see how much timing I can get with 87. Also I may play with developing a cheap water/meth injection.



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #35 by xctasy » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:23 pm

Sounds as awesome as 32.6 US mpg and sub 14 1/4 miles with a turbo 1-bbl.


Lincs200, FirstFox and maybee You Too, Dr eFeNintey.

I like your style....Bookem Derangedfords90. Murder One-Barrel

I REALLY like the late model 1-bbl engine, its got so much to hate with those cast iron rods and enough tubes on it to feed a Texas to New Jersey gas line from just a few junked Foxes, but heck, it was a great way to nothing with a design for 23 years.

Keep the 1-bbl, you sir are a true Hawaii Three-3

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FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #36 by Derangedfords90 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:11 pm

New update. I'm losing fuel after I do some full boost 3rd gear runs. I don't think the mechanical pump is cutting it. I'm going to run an electric pump I have and boost ref a bypass regulator



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #37 by Derangedfords90 » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:23 pm

Oh also my cruise AFR (around 0- 10in/hg) is now around 11:1, so I'm getting 11.5 MPG (plus the lead-foot turbo noise symptom). I think I'm definitely going to have to mess more with the PVCR. I was thinking, what if I completely removed the piston return spring? I know someone mentioned cutting the coils to weaken it but what if it was just loose? That way only when the car starts boosting, the PVCR will be used. Instead of it engaging at the factory spec. (What is the factory vacuum at which the PVCR piston moves?). If I can make the PV piston operate completely under boost then the main system should be satisfactory up until then. I suspect my new cruising RPM/manifold pressure is enabling the PV piston. Thoughts? Besides try another carb (still my backup plan).



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #38 by First Fox » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:37 am

Wait, are you saying you are making positive manifold pressure at cruise?

What turbocharger are you using again?


My garage:

1962 Falcon. 170/Auto.
1965 Fairlane. Twin turbocharged 289/4 speed.
1965 Thunderbird. 390/Auto.
1980 Fairmont. Turbocharged 200, 260 Comp cam/T5 and '93 Mustang steering/suspension.
1981 F-100. 300/4 speed OD. I use this primarily to haul my cars home after I modify them and they break.
1987 Thunderbird Turbocoupe. 2.3/T5. Porche designed 16 valve, twin cam cylinder head.


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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #39 by Derangedfords90 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:07 am

Well, my cruise is sometimes up a very long hill, so around 50% load I can be just around 0psi. But part throttle 0in/hg to 15in/hg the AFR can be as low as 10.5:1 or lower. In that low RPM, low load I would like to be in the 13-14:1 range. For science sake, I have a T04E .57 trim. It spools pretty quickly all things considered.




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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #41 by Derangedfords90 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:49 pm

Also, I killed the diaphragm in the stock fuel pump. I tried to rig up a 135GPH pump I had lying with a boost ref bypass regulator under the hood. It moved way too much fuel and it would aerate the fuel, causing it to lose prime from the tank, so I'm going to try a replacement mechanical pump and see how long it lasts. $24.99 at Vatozone. Worst case scenario it pops again and I go to a pump located at the tank.



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #42 by Derangedfords90 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:57 pm

So the build has been doing well besides a few little issues. I have some oil leaks that have been exacerbated by crankcase pressure but thats not a huge deal, just annoying. The car is a pleasure to drive, has plenty of power on the highways and acts consistant. Also, since putting about 1000 miles on it, I have had nearly no major issues. ABS charge pipe is still intact but I upgraded to actual turbo couplers because I was killing the cheap ones from home depot. Only other issue I have is vapor lock isssues at idle. This is the same common issue with all of the small sixes, except mounting the turbo has only exacerbated the issue. so sitting and idling in traffic or restart after shutdown is sometimes a chore since the fuel starts to boil, There is not enough fresh fuel flowing in to keep the temp cool at idle so it just boils up. At WOT and cruise this is a non issue, one, because the underhood temp is cooler from crusing, and 2, because enough cool fuel is coming in from the tank to counteract the boiling effect.

So besides those little issues, the wagon is DDable, reliably and is fun to drive. However, my gas mileage, as mentioned before is TERRIBLE. about 10-11 mpg MAX. If cruising at 30mph for the whole day I can get 13mpg but thats basically 1/8th throttle. My AFR through the power band is 12.9:1 at idle (which okish) but then drops to 10:1 all the way up to 11.5:1 at 7 psi. The AFR at 7 psi is great, but the rest of the time is horrendous. I should see a negative curve where low speed, no boost i am seeing maybe as high as 15:1.

So I started messing with the emulsion tube. my theory is that the factory emulsion tube settings allow for WAYY more leaning at high speed air flow, so when the fuel level drops in the bowl, it is getting the full leaness. So I decided to do some experimenting. I had originally plugged the HSAB (high speed air bleed) so no air could lean it out at ANY condition. It ran really well, but was super rich, as stated before. So I then drilled my jet to 76 (because I am cheap and don't have a kit yet) and tried plugging a few of the holes in the "flute" of the HSAB in the emulsion well with some copper wire and pulled the assist spring out from behind the PV piston, so that it only opens the PVCR at 0inhg instead of whatever the factory intent was (somewhere between 6inhg and 8inhg I'll bet). I got the same result, but had a leaner top end, because I left some of the holes open (toward the top of the flute, where the mid-speed fuel level should be) . My conclusion is that I need to drill emulsion holes higher in the tube (where the fuel level is higher for low speed driving) and completely plug the high speed holes. An alternative to that would be removing the tube completely, shortening it maybe 1/8" at a time and pressing it back in.

A question that I need answered though, is there anyone that supplies blank emulsion tubes for these holleys (1946 or 1940s series) or perhaps are they all alike?

I'll attach a picture for reference and take a picture of what I did when I pull it apart again, right now she is being relied on for transportation, as I am trying to sell a ford lightning. I know that it is said to just widen the PVCR, but I would like to see if there are alternatives to that, since it is a pain to figure out, and potentially costly if not executed correctly.



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #43 by Derangedfords90 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:14 pm

Picture of said "Emulsion Tube". Labeled "Main Well Tube" in the picture. This is from a 1940 technical manual I found online, but the same concept. The top of the tube leads to the HSAB in the mouth of the carb. This picture shows it upside down. If I could get blank ones or replacement ones, then I would be more willing to experiment, but I haven't found anything. It is about an 1/8th diameter brass tube with about 12 holes drilled in it.
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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #44 by xctasy » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:48 pm

Bang on. Well tubes on Holley 2/4-bbls are 4 or 5 holes deep with 25 thou holes. You add or subtract a hole holes to trim the air fuel ratio. Just like the 2-bbl 2100 and 4-bbl 4100 Autolites.


People used to add Weber well tubes to Holley 2 and 4-bbls with the Weber/Edelbrock/TMP kit.


The top surface of the fuel level changes with RPM. So emulsion/well tube calibration works by turning the tube upside down, and then soldering up holes to richen, adding holes to lean.

Compared to Weber emulsion tubes, your job is gonna be simple and fun....on a 1-bbl, 12 holes is about the same as most Weber well tubes.

You can solder and drill the brass tube. Like swanson 454 did on his 245 cube Jeep, and Airbert on Fordsix Pefromance did with his 1961 Falcon 200. .




Image

Turn the stock issue F5 or F50 e tube upside down with Main jet at top and air corrector at the bottom.

The normal F5 is pretty much the same operationally as the F50, but its a different section width and has an external as well as internation section change, plus different holes.

Image


Upside down E tubes. Left hand side, F50, which is near enough to your F5.

Then F6 then, far right, his custom F7.


He then turned it into the F This

Image

F6's and F66's are other common replacements. Airbert (Mr Neuman) found an F56 too

Image


Posted on Fordsix years ago from U-tube link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pkFSA_rRFI

Sources for the same well tube you have are:-

All 1940 (Generic replacement Autolite 1100)
1945 (Mopar Slant six)
1946/1946c ( Fox I6)
Feedback 1949 (Tempo/Topaz/Tracer before CFI/TBI)
Feedback 6145/6146/6149/6153 (Tempo/Topaz/Tracer before CFI/TBI).

Note Well:-

No log head I6 was ever electronically controlled by any feedback carb.


Not fuel only EECII,
not fuel and ignition EECIII,

not fuel and ignition EECIV,
nor did any ever have an MCU control unit.

Like the Hi Po 5.0 2 and 4-bbl carb GT and RS V8's from 1982 to 1985, there was no electronic feedback system to control air/fuel or EGR or ignition by feedback wire except on startup part of Duraspark II. Like those, the I6 ran Duraspark II, and everything was controlled by playing off ported and manifold vacuum against the EGR needs, with the Orange Throttle Kicker ( for A/C vehicles some years) the only semi feedback device.


An easy method of electronic control is 200 Hz Pulse Width Modulation on the 6145 carb, a 4 cylinder 2.3 version of the Holley.


Note....some of the info is dead wrong, as no I6 3.3 or 4.1 was ever feedback

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thre ... ue.668379/


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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/About-Us.html

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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #45 by Derangedfords90 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:33 am

How did people convert the Holley type with the Weber type? The Holly type just looks like some plain rolled brass tubing where the Weber type looks like a turned piece of brass. I found some hobby brass tubing in 1/8" and 1/16" sizes (I am honestly unsure of the size of the original). What I may do is get some of this (at $3 a package of 4) and cut them to an equivalent length and solder the end shut like the stocker. Then start playing with the holes. Also the stocker appears to be pressed into the upper half of the carb. Any suggestions on how to get it in and out without maiming the tube or the carb half?



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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #46 by xctasy » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:54 pm

Derangedfords90 wrote:How did people convert the Holley type with the Weber type? The Holly type just looks like some plain rolled brass tubing where the Weber type looks like a turned piece of brass. I found some hobby brass tubing in 1/8" and 1/16" sizes (I am honestly unsure of the size of the original). What I may do is get some of this (at $3 a package of 4) and cut them to an equivalent length and solder the end shut like the stocker. Then start playing with the holes. Also the stocker appears to be pressed into the upper half of the carb. Any suggestions on how to get it in and out without maiming the tube or the carb half?



I have little experience with modifications to the 1946...for the 4 years I had it, I never had to do anything to it...best carb ever.

Normally, the well tubes are profiled for volume and stage depth and location, so they don't swap.

It lookes like you can refashion yours if you find a replacement 1945 or 1946 or whatever carb on your island.

This might help...the old Autolite arrangement. That set up had a needle hanger K cluster that went through the well tube, so it won't be anywhere near the same.

The principal of remaking one is similar....find one from anthor Holley 1-bbl carb car, or find some stock, and by American smarts, solder something up. Not sure about the locating tab, or how you might get past that, but a good jewler has fine tools, and can cut the basic shapes with ease.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=70651&p=541760#p541760
xctasy wrote:For anyone else with this problem, the four and five hole brass emulsion tubes are called well tubes, and are part of the whole K cluster. The idle jet in 27 to 32 thu sizes goes down the tubes.

They are different to 2-bbl 2300 and 4-bbl 4150/4160 Holleys, which use 6 hole well tubes with 25 thou holes typically, although there are a few types of a slightly different nature. The key thing for Autolite and Motorcraft 2100/2150's and 4100's is that as long as the pattern and sizes are the right ones, you can take em off, and remake them, or solder them. Jeeps used the carb as well as FoMoCo...its around!


Here is some really good tech info to show how.

http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vinta ... tions.html

http://68vert.blogspot.co.nz/2011/11/this-old-carb.html

While I was cleaning the venturi clusters, I noticed that one of the emulsion tubes of the primary cluster was cracked. I read up on this a bit and found it to be a fairly common problem. Some guys leave it alone, others solder the crack. I decided to try to remake the tube. The tubes are .2175" inches outside diameter with a flare on the end of .279". I found that 7/32" brass tube from the hobby shop is only 125 thousandths too large and 9/32" tube is 225 thousandths too large. After a few failures, I figured out how to accurately solder the large tube over the small tube to kind of simulate a properly expanded flare. The emulsion holes in the tubes are right at .040" and I had some .040 drill bits handy (1mm) so I laid a piece of transparent tape over the holes of a good tube and transferred them to the fabricated tube. Finally, I chucked up the tube into my drill press and sanded the "flared" end down to .279". I then pressed the tube into the venturi cluster making sure to aim the holes in the same direction as the originals were. By the way, I did try to find an old carb, venturi cluster, or even replacement tubes but came up empty (for less than $25). Otherwise, I wouldn't have bothered.


Looks like it is a common 2100/2150/4100 Autolite and Motorcraft problem. Knowing how much the Holley and Holley Weber carbs respond to customized well tubes, this is an important first step if you fail to get the performance and idle characteristics you expect.


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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/About-Us.html

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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #47 by xctasy » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:40 pm

Derangedfords90 wrote:How did people convert the Holley type with the Weber type?


A 4160 style metering plate with Weber or modified Weber emulsion tubes/well tubes. You can then play around with all spects of fuel air, without dropping the float boewl. Doesn't apply to your carb, sadly, but the cahnge in well tube hole pattern results in this kind of visual change.

Image

Image

xctasy wrote:If everyone used a 4-bbl 4150 or 4160 series Holley, you could make any cam and intake system work. In some cases, a 2-bbl will have very poor perfromance and fuel distribution with I6's. The trick of opening the secondary throttles a little for airflow, and then adjusting idle mixtures and only drilling throttle plates if there is an idle to transition tune problem has worked for years on little OHC Pintos, Foxes and Rangers with 6299, 8007 and 6895 Holley 390 cfm carbs. You can run those on a 2 or 2.3 with the biggest cam, and they idle nice. The 350 or 500 2-bbl is very touchy with respect to cam timing, so are the bigger versions of the 2100 and 2150.

If you want to get the best out of a Holley, with none of the horrible split line and adjustment hassles, grab any old 7448 350 or 4412 500 cfm 2-bbl Holley, and run the Weber Power Plate (found used on the internet as Weber, Edelbrock or new from TMP Carbs).


Smaller venturis cost you power on a Holley or Autolite/Motorcraft 2-bbl. This is not true of DCOE Webers or dcnf or IDA and IDF down drafts, somtimes the venturi can be too big for the throttle. On the US Holley or Autolite/Motorcraft 2-bbls, the throttle bores and spacing can be nice and large, so the casting can support upsized venturis if the casting is epoxied or JBWelded to as much as 1.56" by fly cutting or 3M paper boring with a broom handle awl and drill, and the only issues that stop people making the bigger 1.21's and 1.33's work is air bleed, well tube, squirter, power vlave and and accelerator pump calibration.

Anytime you get better progression and economy with a sub optimal flow smaller carb is because its air fuel trim is out of wack. Running an smaller carb because you can't calibrate the bigger one for use when the bigger one has the right air flow is not the smart way to go. Again, the way they come prepared, none of the 2-bbl Holley/Autolite/Motorcraft carbs like large duration cams, its very easy to get fuel standoff and reversion problems, typical of the smaller i6 with big cams and automatic gearboxes with stock 1650 stall ratios. They have multiple problems with distributor calibration being out, cam being to big, stall being to low, and then the owner dropping out of a bigger carb to a smaller one.

The kits have been around since the early 80's. It has long gone out of major US production from Edelebrock and Weber, but new from TMP, it is expensive, and there are some debates about how ideal the Weber IDA well tubes are in a Holley application, but they work, and can make a seamless Air Fuel ratio.

That allows you to run bigger venturis, and the Autolite/Motorcraft venturis cost you power at 1.08 to 1.21 inches. A 500 Holley with 1.375" venturi or
a 650 series 2-bbl venturi size of 1.4375 with an upsized 1.75" throttle can be operated with ease when you use this kit.

You get two plates in the kit because its generally for 4150 or 4160 4-bbls, but you only need to run the one with the accelerator pump

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70 idle jet, 150 air corrector,
155 main jets, 110 air correctors,
Two IDA F11 emulsion tubes

and a 120 micron Power Valve Channel restriction will make the engine run clean and responsive.

Emulsion tube is based on hp level expected, intake runner type, and the venturi size, but the five emulsion tubes cover that off.

That will get you started.

It allows you to carb to a better, bigger carb size, but has a transition circuit, and there is now the right access and info on 61450xxx Weber emulsion tubes and main jets and air correctors.

Most importantly, you can run a standard high pressure fuel pump, and even change idle jets with the engine running. Its set up for a standard Holley float height, but has been used in competition Cleveland race engines for years down in Australia, and it eliminates all the hassles of the truly awful vertically jointed Holley float bowl.

In an i6, the throttles can be run parallel to the crank, and then the power valve will never be uncovered under acceleration. The float level isn't optimal with the stock five kinds of 61450 series IDA emulsion tubes, but that's irrelevant because the choices work for the power levels, fuel pressures and float levels you's see from a front float bowl.

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33417
http://www.theturboforums.com/threads/3 ... f8c9649a43


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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/About-Us.html

Derangedfords90
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Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:03 pm

Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #48 by Derangedfords90 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:21 am

So, I'm still planning on messing around with the carb a little longer, just to say I did, but I just discovered this :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Motorcraft- ... 2186165234

I also found out that I can get a 64lb/hr injector for this unit (far larger than the stock units). I am sure this has been discussed over in the megasquirt section, but I may go that route. I have been wanting to get into the megasquirt scene for a while.



Derangedfords90
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Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:03 pm

Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #49 by Derangedfords90 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:31 pm

Small update, and a bit of a sad one at that. The engine has developed a noise. Without pulling it apart I can only speculate that I may have butted a ring. So, unfortunately I will be pulling it and swapping the 351w I have on the stand in it, only because I have it. I will be pulling it apart and looking for what happened in the name of science, and if the damage is not horrible will probably rebuild it. I think I'm going to keep it to put into a bronco II or ranger. Probably do some sort of EFI system and put some more boost to it next time. Thanks all for the help! Updates to what happen will follow this post!



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xctasy
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Re: A "run of the mill" 200 project.

Post #50 by xctasy » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:21 pm

Derangedfords90 wrote:Small update, and a bit of a sad one at that. The engine has developed a noise. Without pulling it apart I can only speculate that I may have butted a ring. So, unfortunately I will be pulling it and swapping the 351w I have on the stand in it, only because I have it. I will be pulling it apart and looking for what happened in the name of science, and if the damage is not horrible will probably rebuild it. I think I'm going to keep it to put into a bronco II or ranger. Probably do some sort of EFI system and put some more boost to it next time. Thanks all for the help! Updates to what happen will follow this post!


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I'm a Lava Luva not a hater...

Buy one of these bro'

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Lincs200, Does10s, First Fox, and now Re-arangedfords90!

I feel like I'm aiding an abetting both sides of the fight here, either option will be the coolest!


Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/About-Us.html

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