Turbo 240 or 300

pmuller9 · Post **#251** by **pmuller9** » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:15 pm

The only turbocharger orientation that is important is the center section.
It is best if the oil feed is on top and the oil return is facing down.

The double slip collectors DO NOT get welded. The primary pipes simply slide into place and are allowed to contract and expand and move around without having welds to stress and eventually fail.

See half way down the page.
http://www.burnsstainless.com/technolog ... aders.aspx

Ramian17 · Post **#252** by **Ramian17** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:59 pm

Crazy so that little piece doesn't get welded to the collector, or the pipe coming up to the collector? The pipes just slip into that little sleeve? Does the oil feed need to be perfectly vertical it is definitely coming in from the top but it is at a little angle maybe 15° to 20°. Which then makes it so the coolant isn't flowing completely level across the turbo. Is all that ok? I was told that for longevity of turbo you want the shaft horizontal to the ground? How exact should that be?Also I am about to order the fuel pump, fuel regulator and the intercooler. Are these all still correct for this set up? Or do I want to max out inter cooler? I could definitely go taller and could go to right round 30 inches total width.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-18689/overview/
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-13129/overview/
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rev9-V-Mount-T ... gz&vxp=mtr

pmuller9 · Post **#253** by **pmuller9** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:45 pm

The oil return can be at a small angle. The object is to allow gravity to drain the oil out of the center bearing area.
I'm not sure how important it is to have the turbo shaft parallel with the ground with ceramic bearings that also provide thrust support.

Fuel pump and regulator are good.

Go for the biggest intercooler possible.

Ramian17 · Post **#254** by **Ramian17** » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:57 pm

Dang it i forgot the side view sorry. But we got it moved to where I think it's going to live!!! You can barely tell from these pictures but we moved it quite a bit. I Ordered the pump and reg and I will check on intercooler size one more time and then hopefully order one of those too.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j6ym4z6cfchxt ... 4.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ow503py0z49gf ... 6.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wkfhg8szbgmtl ... 0.jpg?dl=0

Ramian17 · Post **#255** by **Ramian17** » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:15 am

Got the side view. So can you see how when my hands aren't holding it the turbo isn't level aka in the correct position. Because of the heims it still doesn't hang perfect. It takes a couple pounds up on the compressor side is the easiest way to level it, Or like in the pic you can push up opposite of the flange too. So Should i build the header next to support it? I was also thinking I could build the intake to the compressor side out of aluminium and mount it to the motor on the other side before I build the header? The aluminium mount wouldn't have any heims but all in all would not be very stiff then I was thinking of building the aluminium tubing to the intercooler. The intercooler would be hard mounted to the frame not the motor so the tubing would have to be somewhat flexible but also might almost be stiff enough to support the turbo so it hangs more level. You could even have the exhaust put on and hung cause it would be mounted to the frame with thick pieces of rubber also providing support but still very flexible. Do all of this before I build the header? I'm just not familiar with the double slip joints and how well this header is going to hold the Turbo. Or just go for header lol? Thanks for reading all this you guys and for all your help !!!!!! I couldn't of done it without you. There is just so many unknowns and so many start over/redo moments that I'd like to not mess this header thing up.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w5q5mh7iqr01y ... 7.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1xyqkjyku83ks ... 4.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/90lmdz9mca706 ... 5.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l9qis0yh51afm ... 2.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wyglbhl7xbn37 ... 4.jpg?dl=0

pmuller9 · Post **#256** by **pmuller9** » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:27 am

Header next.
The way it should work is, the header will hold the turbo upright and level especially with six pipes attached to the collector.
The six primary pipes will approach the collector at different angles so the collector cannot be removed from the pipes or move period even with slip joints.
The hanger with the Heims only has to take the weight of the turbo off the end of the header and nothing else.

To help with flex you use silicone rubber tubing between the aluminum tubing coming from the frame mounted intercooler and the engine mounted turbo.
They come in straight, elbow, reducer and other shapes and sizes.
Example: http://www.turbosmartdirect.com/Product ... cone-Hose/

Ramian17 · Post **#257** by **Ramian17** » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:57 pm

Ok so I got the exhaust mandrel bends for the turbo exhaust outlet. Now!!?!??? I think the turbo is where it is going to live and I hope you guys like these angles? Just want to make sure that the bends around the water pump pulley aren't to extreme? They will be in the two inch pipe after the six have consolidated to two. I think they are fine and have plus they kinda have to be. I guess just another question before we start cutting these stainless. Cause if this looks good to go tomorrow we go forward with header!!!!!
What do you think about the bend around the pulley and then there is also a little bend going into the turbo?

Ramian17 · Post **#258** by **Ramian17** » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:01 pm

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4262xnfnq0z6e ... R.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ntdn3t1b7pk4c ... 2.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7w8366c36zk66 ... 2.jpg?dl=0

pmuller9 · Post **#259** by **pmuller9** » Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:06 am

If that's where the turbo needs to be to get all the ins and outs to work then go for it.
The 2" tubing bends around the pulley aren't very much and will be OK.

Ramian17 · Post **#260** by **Ramian17** » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:34 am

Hooray thanks a bunch pmuller we are going for it then!!!!

Ramian17 · Post **#261** by **Ramian17** » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:51 pm

I don't think I ordered enough bends in the two inch stainless. I will need to order some more of that cheap stuff. I ordered the SS for the flange that will bolt to the head. My two old headers had there own flanges. Should I make one flange aka one header? Or should I go two sperate flanges and then we could probably keep them separate all the way to the turbo flange? We started by making a tool to press the tube into a rectangle to match the turbo flange. When we start cutting these tubes do we want any gap between the pieces when we weld them? Or do we want zero clearance between the pieces?

pmuller9 · Post **#262** by **pmuller9** » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:42 am

I would make a one piece header flange. If you have two pieces then you would need to have them both bolted to the head to get tube alignment at the other end.

If you mean spacing the tubes apart to get penetration, I would say no.
I would grind an angle on the tube walls at the ends of both tubes and butt them together so you have a "V" to fill in at the weld joint.

Ramian17 · Post **#263** by **Ramian17** » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:05 pm

One piece... will do. the flange for the head side will be here tomorrow and we are pressing two tubes into rectangles as we speak.

Ramian17 · Post **#264** by **Ramian17** » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:42 pm

Success... Kinda. So what's the trick? we pressed the end of two tubes into rectangles to match the Turbo flange. But because the flange is so tight in the middle as soon as the tubes go back to round they are in the way of each other. We don't have a way to hold a mandrel bend so that we could press a rectangle into the end of one of those but even if we could it would have to be right at the start of the bend. So our plan was to press about an inch worth of the tube into a rectangle. Then cut out a small wedge right as soon as it clears the turbo flange, so that we could bend it out of the way of the other tube? Just feel like our way is kinda ghetto? Gonna go ask an exhaust shop tomorrow if they can form the ends of mandrels?

pmuller9 · Post **#265** by **pmuller9** » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:10 pm

The tubes transition from a rectangle to an oval then to a round.
The two tubes still have to angle away from each other after the turbo flange but the oval section minimizes the angle.

Ramian17 · Post **#266** by **Ramian17** » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:33 pm

Yeah the problem is that it needs to go to a mandrel in a matter of inches. Tomorrow I will mock it up first thing and see if we can make one longer, to keep it an oval for a little bit. I drew a sketch of what I think it will look like what do ya think. The tube on the left might be able to be a couple inches before it needs to turn to miss the water pump but the right tube needs to turn almost immediately to make room for the other tube. Jahahahahaha go times. Also in the pick the right tube going to the front collector will snake up and down and not left and right just couldn't draw it 3D. Hopefully all six tubes going into the collectors will be made the same length and the snaking will hopefully make the 2 inch tubes the same length which hopefully makes this thing screem!!!!!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d4h27jhsvmkp4 ... 1.jpg?dl=0

pmuller9 · Post **#267** by **pmuller9** » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:46 pm

Why does the right tube going to the front collector have to snake up and down?

Ramian17 · Post **#268** by **Ramian17** » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:09 am

To make it longer to match the left tube

pmuller9 · Post **#269** by **pmuller9** » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:19 am

It is more important that the primary tubes are the same length than the two 2" tubes.
The extra bends in the 2" tube will make it flow different than the straighter 2" tube and will also create more heat loss.
It would be best if you just made it without extra bends.

Ramian17 · Post **#270** by **Ramian17** » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:40 am

Alrighty then I was just going with what some one at a turbo shop had told me. he said that the extra bends where ok. He said that you are looking for the same volume between the two headers because of the twin scroll? But if you say straight that will be cheaper and easier so I'll go that route if you say so.

Ramian17 · Post **#271** by **Ramian17** » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:50 am

So I've been reading that thread about the crank sensor and the crank trigger. Is there an easy way to know where to leave out the two teeth? Or it's sounding like I need to build or at least figure out where the sensor is going to go?

pmuller9 · Post **#272** by **pmuller9** » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:27 am

The reason I suggested not doing the wavy pipe is that you are trying to make up for a 13.4" difference in pipe length between the two and that would take some big waves to make that up in such a short distance.

The better way is to have the forward header collector turn back about 30* and the rear header collector turn forward about 30* similar to the Stock EFI exhaust manifolds. The outlets of the two collectors will be closer together.
Then the forward 2" pipe would have a 60* turn to run back to the turbo flange and the rear 2" pipe would have a 120* turn to run back.
The two pipes would run side by side all the way back to the turbo flange and be the same length.

Have the harmonic balancer made with all 60 teeth. Then after you mount the sensor you can grind the two teeth off where you need the missing teeth to be.

Ramian17 · Post **#273** by **Ramian17** » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:17 pm

So I drew this pic you thinking something like this? Cause wouldn't that make the front collector have a greater than 90 and the rear less than 90? Either way I think this might work.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/sinutajcgc15k ... 4.jpg?dl=0

pmuller9 · Post **#274** by **pmuller9** » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:44 pm

Yep, that is what I was trying to say. Good translation!

Ramian17 · Post **#275** by **Ramian17** » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:05 pm

Nice got a rough cut on the header flange today. Hopefully we can get that design header to fit in the doghouse.

Ramian17 · Post **#276** by **Ramian17** » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:43 pm

Finally made some more progress but it's slow, this stainless steel crap is super tough lol. When I cut it out with the plasma I did a horrible job. I have what, I am calling, rough milled the first three cylinders of the flange. Still have the last three to mill. The first three took me hours!!!! But other than watching a ton this was pretty much my first time using a plasma or a mill lol. I have used them both before, very minimally, but never on anything this heavy or tough. We are still planning on having to smooth it by hand with a die grinder or such, after the milling process. You guys have any better ideas of how to go about this. Also we need a template for the head. We are going to go old school with thin cardboard and a soft mallet. Does any one know where I could get a template for a 1966 Econoline 240 head? Does the head need to be machined in the upper corner of the intake port for the injector spray path? Also I bought an intake/exhaust gasket for a 1991 ford 300 and it doesn't seem to have a notch in the upper corner of the intake port fort the spray path is this the wrong gasket?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t3tubqxi32xtd ... 1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ilijqc87g2zwg ... 8.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3tqgqpaht4zp4 ... 8.jpg?dl=0

pmuller9 · Post **#277** by **pmuller9** » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:34 pm

The EFI head doesn't appear to have a notch in the upper corner either.

I prefer to use thin aluminum to make a template. It gives a sharper working edge than cardboard.
A ball peen hammer will cut out the (or at least mark well) the outline of the ports

Ramian17 · Post **#278** by **Ramian17** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:21 am

Crazy I guess I'll go with no notch in the head then. I talked to the dampener doctor today he wasn't sure if we should cut the 60 gears in the front of the V belt, because of the tiny amount of movement between the dampener and the crank. Due to the rubber between the two. What do ya think about that? Should I have him grind 60 teeth into the front or make me a custom wheel gear that will bolt onto the front of the crank? If I go with the custom wheel should it still be 60 or go with the three style? You did say this is better than just using the distributor for the crank trigger right lol?

pmuller9 · Post **#279** by **pmuller9** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:20 am

He is correct. The dampener does vibrate back and forth with the different torsional harmonics from the crank.
Have him make a 60 tooth wheel that bolts to the inner hub.

Going with three is not as acurate and you would just use the PIP signal from the distributor instead.

Ramian17 · Post **#280** by **Ramian17** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:02 am

Awesome thanks pmuller. I'm not sure there is enough room between the balancer and the block. I am assuming that if you are telling me to do that, that they there is lol. If there isn't though can the gear go on the front?

Ramian17 · Post **#281** by **Ramian17** » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:05 am

Never mind just reread.... sorry inner hub. Nothing about the inside of the balancer. Thanks again

Ramian17 · Post **#282** by **Ramian17** » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:33 am

Got the outer edge of the flange pretty much milled to completion. Only a couple spots right next to bolt holes that need a quarter of an inch or so taken off. Also completed the aluminium template.....well kinda it matches the head perfectly right now. So we still need to take .045 of an inch off around all exhaust ports to allow for the tubing to match the head perfectly. Does anyone have the capability to press one off the mandrel bends into a rectangle, to match the T-4 flange. We have pressed a straight piece into a rectangle. But due to the tightness of everything it would be a lot cleaner and nicer if it went right into a bend out of the turbo instead of, turbo half inch straight piece welded seam mandrel bend. I've talked to one guy that says he can do it but I'm guessing I annoyed him with all my questions, and no actual purchase of his skills.....yet lol. Basically he isn't returning my calls any more. He is a custom header guy in Sacramento. I only need two of these rectangles pressed into the ends of two 90° mandrels to go with my twin scroll flange. I have the bends and am willing to ship them to pretty much anywhere. Or I still need some more 2 inch bends so I could have burns send them right to you. I am willing to pay $$$$$ obviously. Otherwise I'm going ghetto extra seam.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tyupekqh9mdu5 ... 1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nc5ll8k2ntho2 ... 1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/994op65eq7k2f ... 9.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rweuvyk5pbtz4 ... 7.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v4qyigdc2mkz5 ... 1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/oxwquji8fgqoy ... 5.jpg?dl=0

Ramian17 · Post **#283** by **Ramian17** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:18 pm

Does a 1996 f-150 have a 58 tooth gear mounted to the balancer? If not i think I'm going to have to make a custom one. Unless someone knows of one that will bolt to a 300 balance, and is low profile. I only have about half an inch to spare on the front of the balancer?

pmuller9 · Post **#284** by **pmuller9** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:29 pm

Ramian17 wrote:Does a 1996 f-150 have a 58 tooth gear mounted to the balancer? If not i think I'm going to have to make a custom one. Unless someone knows of one that will bolt to a 300 balance, and is low profile. I only have about half an inch to spare on the front of the balancer?

The 1996 engine decodes the PIP signal from distributor for sequential injection.

Ramian17 · Post **#285** by **Ramian17** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:17 pm

That's what I thought then why does Napa sell a 96 f-150 crank sensor lol?

pmuller9 · Post **#286** by **pmuller9** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:00 pm

Ramian17 wrote:That's what I thought then why does Napa sell a 96 f-150 crank sensor lol?

Because the 1996 F150 with a 5.0 and 5.8 V8 uses the crank sensor.

Ramian17 · Post **#287** by **Ramian17** » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:28 pm

Ahhh gotcha thanks.

Ramian17 · Post **#288** by **Ramian17** » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:35 pm

Still need that offy/taller valve cover anyone know of any?

pmuller9 · Post **#289** by **pmuller9** » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:57 am

How much room do you need?
I was able to get away with two cork gaskets

Ramian17 · Post **#290** by **Ramian17** » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:09 am

Not very much that would probably work for me too. But I'd much rather have a nice New tall one lol.

Ramian17 · Post **#291** by **Ramian17** » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:12 am

Super close to finishing the header flange. Milling the finishing touches tomorrow. Once that is done we will finally be playing with the 321 SS!!! I hope you like my plan. Cause I already ordered them. I talked to a lot of intercooler guys and they said it was a good idea. I ordered two of these.
https://www.speedyracer.com/180SX-200SX ... -S15-300ZX search=Universal%20intercooler
And am going to weld them together connect the tanks on one side by turning them into one tank. That way I'll have the inlet and outlet on the same side which I'm pretty sure is going to fit the best for me. What do ya think good idea? I also ordered some silicone fittings and some aluminium piping. Getting closer!!!

Ramian17 · Post **#292** by **Ramian17** » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:05 am

We actually started on the stainless tubing today. We got one runner from cylinder 6 tacked together, that holds the rear collector where it might actually work fingers crossed lol. I forgot to take pics but will soon. This is what we are going for. It's hard to draw in three D so work with me.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/59mggcrqmcotr ... 8.jpg?dl=0
We aren't very far but it's looking like if we go under the floor and outside the dog house to go around the motor mount, that it will be a build in place piece haha. Unless we break it in the middle somewhere like in the drawing. My question is does it matter where other than for ease of installation, and what kind of connection.? V clamps, flanges with a heavy seal that are bolted together?

pmuller9 · Post **#293** by **pmuller9** » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:58 am

I've always had good luck with "V" flanges. I don't like having to deal with seals.
Break it where you need to. No problem.
Glad to see progress.

Ramian17 · Post **#294** by **Ramian17** » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:30 pm

Awesome I will go with the v claps then thanks for the opinion. Oh boy hold on tight. The rear three runners and collector might actually be tacked in place!!!!!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cewofepxpwlx1 ... 3.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/jag3u9eerrs8d ... 8.jpg?dl=0
Gonna start the front three tomorrow and then on to the two inch. We are going to drop the two inch down under the motor mount and out of the dog house before it goes forward and too the turbo. We thought this would be better for heat inside the dog house and. Inside the van. It is going to make the two inch pipes considerable longer. That shouldnt be an issue correct? As long as they are the same length?

Ramian17 · Post **#295** by **Ramian17** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:43 am

As I predicted today we redid most of yesterday. We found out right away that the intake didn't fit so well with the front and rear runners in that last header design lol. Now we have this.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vqgli0qym0f39 ... 0.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0256wsugaw24l ... 1.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5mgnj0900kgfr ... 3.jpg?dl=0
What do ya think. We mocked up the front collector to try to figure out where the two inch is going to be right after the collectors and next to the engine mount. I won't lie it's only a solid half inch from the motor edge. It is the lip with the oil pan seal. Unless someone ... objects? We are going with it. Gonna start the front three banks tomorrow which are going to be way more complicated.

n8in8or · Post **#296** by **n8in8or** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 6:56 am

I wondered if the previous design left enough room for the intake. From what I can see I think this looks good. Are you taking each of these tubes apart to weld them out individually and then weld the assembly together at the end? I’m not sure how you’ll get to some of those seams otherwise. I don’t remember if you said in a previous post - are you wrapping these when you’re done or having them coated? If so, I don’t think I’d worry about the clearance. Nice work and it looks like fun!

Ramian17 · Post **#297** by **Ramian17** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:17 am

Thanks yeah it has been a lot of fun. We will be have to basically dismantle the whole thing to get to all the seems. I was going to ceramic coat them. But was wondering if the double slip joints from burns can be coated? I'm guessing not? Should I wrap the joints and the rest of the header after it's coated?

Ramian17 · Post **#298** by **Ramian17** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:13 pm

Check it out got all the runners and the collectors tacked in place. On to the two inch headed to the turbo.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tqxe0w7qzcfx9 ... 3.jpg?dl=0
Then the hard stuff is over lol

pmuller9 · Post **#299** by **pmuller9** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:51 pm

Nice routing job :beer:

Ramian17 · Post **#300** by **Ramian17** » Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:13 pm

Thanks pmuller they are almost all the same length except for cylinder number three obviously. He's our ugly duckling. You still confident this thing is going to make lots of low end torque lol ?!?!?

Who is online