turbo 200 build

Started working on the car again over the holidays. Had a hell of a time figuring out where to put the wastegate on the header. The places I planned on installing it did not pan out - not enough room. I kept postponing the decision (always a bad idea) mostly because I couldn't access the header to weld in the wastegate flange without pulling the engine :banghead: I finally figured out where it would fit and my worst fears were realized - out came the engine. So I took a few steps backwards but It ended up fitting perfectly in the original starter location. Since I have the engine out, I'm taking care of a few other details and will (hopefully) install it for the last time! I am now motivated again to get this car running!

Picture taken from bottom of engine looking up
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From top looking down
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Hurry up, I just ordered a Dom with the 7" dash and I am going to need some help :D ...
All kidding aside you are doing a great job and it takes whatever it takes. (y)
 
drag-200stang":37ybi60d said:
Hurry up, I just ordered a Dom with the 7" dash and I am going to need some help :D ...
All kidding aside you are doing a great job and it takes whatever it takes. (y)
Thanks, I'm in Northern California and I'm freezing my butt off - I don't think I want to go to Michigan! :LOL:
The engine is back in the car! While the engine was out I wrapped the headers with heat tape. I installed the power steering - it took over two hours for my wife (small fingers) and I to screw the front bracket bolts into the power steering! There's never any room to do anything easily on this build. Got the oil lines to the turbo all hooked up. Now for the bad news - I cut 1 1/2" out of the firewall and I moved the engine back an 1" from stock. With a stock radiator I'd have plenty of room for an electric fan - however I used an aluminum radiator for a V8 which is substantially deeper than the stock Ford. I got the slimmest fan I could find and it's still to deep - the center of the fan hits the water pump pulley. I'd already made the cowl of course. So now I'm going with two smaller fans and mount them diagonally to avoid the water pump pulley - and build another cowl.

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Latest update - finally have most of the wiring finished - I would recommend spending a the extra money and getting a quality wiring kit - it will save you a lot of time and frustration. Fabricated a transmission bracket because my the engine and trany sits 1 1/2 inches back from stock - that was surprisingly more difficult than I thought it would be. But, everything is now installed permanently. Still have a few things to do like the throttle and clean up some of the wiring. Finally started it and it fired right up even after a year of sitting! :D So happy to be moving on to brakes and suspension - should be on the road very soon! I have a question on exhaust: I'm running a 3 inch pipe from the turbo and then split to dual exhaust. I'm thinking of running two resonators with no muffler but am concerned about too much drone on the highway - should I use a muffler also?


Start #2 (Youtube Link)


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Pic of fuse panel:
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One of the best 200 builds I have ever seen. (y)
Cannot help you with drone, you may have to experiment...But I will recommend you to keep post turbo back pressure the lowest that you can design ...It will pay off with better all around performance...Maybe kick out on an angle in front of the rear tires , short, and less bends
I know you know these things but try help others at the same time.
 
Thanks for the compliments - always appreciate any feedback :) About the exhaust - I'm trying to walk a fine line between race car and every day driver, so I'm willing to sacrifice a little performance to keep the decibel level down. I think I'm going to split the exhaust and run it out the back with as few bends as possible ( I'll let ya know how that goes)
Here's a pic of my cam card:
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:beer: excellent build quality and workmanship! On your exhaust you could build a resonator tube or two for duels, to cut down on the drone. Good luck (y) :nod:
 
The cam in my old turbo was 266 adv. solid lifter shifted at 6500, 6800 at traps...New built 287 S should be good to shift at 7200.. .Had a 292 -S 500 lift , 3 240 engine yf's na that I ran with the 266 and the 292 was a dog at low speed would not start to come to about 5000 and would shift a 7500, compression may have been to low but that is why I turbo-ed it.. Seems like a very serious cam ,Your manifold and efi may change all of that.
For the knowledge base please let us know what the power range is and how it behaves when you get it all sorted out. :beer:
 
I asked about the cam specs because of the very rough idle and now I see why.

Originally you wanted peak power not much more than 5000 rpm with plenty of mid range torque.
Both Comp cams and myself specified the .050" duration of less than 210 degrees on a wide Lobe Separation Angle.
I'm not sure why you went with the Clay Smith cam which is sooooo far off from the original recommendation?

Like Drag-200stang said, it will be good info to see how the cam responds with the turbo and EFI
but I suspect it won't be what you were looking for.

The correct cam for your application should idle smoothly at 650 rpm and have good torque from 2000 to 5000 rpms.
A [highlight=yellow]Schneider 256H[/highlight] with a 1.6 ratio rocker arm would fit the profile.
This is not the first time Clay Smith provided a cam that had way too much duration and too tight of a LSA for a boosted Ford six.

I'm assuming the engine's compression ratio is close to 8:1?
What ratio rocker arms are being used?
 
Thanks for the comments and critiques - much appreciated. Yeah, I screwed up my cam choice :roll: I was going to buy a Comp Cam but the tech got irritated at my many questions and stopped communicating with me - which rubbed me the wrong way. So I contacted Clay Smith and talked with their rep - assuming he knew which cam to go with I took his recommendation - I do realize, pmuller9, that you recommended the correct cam and I should have gone with it :arg: So I have this cam and am going with it and see what happens - I'll probably have to change it out -I'll update after I get the engine sorted. My compression ratio is 8:1.
 
The drone is resonance frm your exceptionally well made, large diameter primary exhaust system and induction system. The rest you can control by slapping a dual pipe final exhaust with conventional mufflers.

George Striegel at Clay Smith has been the man to get cams from in the past.....vast experience means he just sort of listens to what radio station your on, and whammo, you have a cam.

Smetimes Clay Smith or Schneider screw up, just like any. Your actual results vary. I don't like low lift, low duration cams on turbos. The 256H is in my humble opinion quite the wrong cam for a cut off log head with good intake and exhausting manifolds.

Lobe center discussions are all very good and well, but camminess is based on cold cranking compression with your pump gas octane, and how you trim the air fuel curve. The cam's actual dynamic compression ratio is mellowed by the total cfm flow with all the EFi and exhaust bolted up.

Your bare cylinder head casting with the iron head has similar flow figures to a 2V 250 Head with better exhaust flow. The intake flow figures are compromised at low rpm by port which are a little to big, and at high speeds by shape which is a little too far off the idealised apple port with the bottom of the port the wrong shape, and the top of the intake port to flat and square. So peak rpm looses power, and at low rp, you loose torque.


The reverse slpit cam is the right one, and going up in off the seat duration betweeen 30 and 50 thou is okay on a 3.3 six with opened up ports and better exhaust.



I don't doubt a Schneider 256H will idle better, but the problem is with ignition and fuel tables, not cam size or LCA. Lobe splay is better to be wider, but 115 is best for EFi, going back to narrow lobe splays isn't gonna help much.


A real disease with cam selection in the US is using benchmarking of existing mild cams on engines that aren't the same. The Schneider 256H and other cams like it have been used on 2V 250 headed 200's and Classic Inlines heads, and give great results. Period.


Georges "Turbo Expriement" was a 250 X flow Cortina with a 291 duration, 220 degree lift at 50 thou cam that others like Mike 1157 ran... a solid lifter cam on a 250 with a very good breathing head with more than 200 cfm at 25" H20.

All the 250 engines with turbos lap up extra duration and lift, and the little 200 needs a lot more duration and lift than the milder cams. The Lobe split angle recomendations for I6's are all wrong.Port EFi needs wider lobe centers to time the low speed pulses. All good programs give you crank angle at maximum piston speed, and that governs how you set up your injector pulses. Below 3000 rpm, the Fuel Injection world is sequential, and you really need to avoid narrow lobe centers.

Peak power rpm is defined by the traditional three or four emperical formulas, but low speed behavour is defined by injection and advance set up and cold cranking compression values. Yo9u can pull out valve lash and advance or retard cams to adjust, but it won't alter the peak power rpm much because thats set by the total cfm at 4500, 5000, 5500 and 6000 rpm zones. If you have 180 cfm at 520 thou valve lift with the intake manifold on, then your peak power rpm will be 5714 rpm with a 210 cubic inch engine, and as cubes go downwards, rpm goes up.


For a 30 thou over 200, that's smack dang on 5800 rpm. If your total cfm is lower at 520 thou lift, then peak rpm will drop, but there aint no way I'd ever undercam a 200 turbo with EFi with as little cam as that. Everyone these days is wanting to run power Steering, A/C, and high stall converters, and the common recomendations Jerry makes is for something a little less than the ideal. With bigger head flow CFM's, carb duration and lift don't need to be as high, but as the head become less efficent like our log heads, then cam duration and lift become CRITICAL.

Balancing off overscavanging is likewise ultra important, because Ford's engineers decided to restrict intake flow and adjust exhaust flow to 65% of the intake figure on all its engines. Cleveland 351 4V's are the worst, as are FE 390's and Lima 460's.

Anytime you got a great intake, Ford always restricted the exhaust hump. Mainly becasue they were lumped into little uni body X chassis 60's Falcon sedan based platforms with coil over A arm or Modified McPherson strut suspension Foxes that you couldn't swing a spanner in.

So all the Ford cams up till 1985 were ground for restrictive exhaust flow, while a turbo 200 with a cut off log needs a reverse cut intake and duration split like 300/290 or 280/270. Especvailly Aussie X flow alloy heads, the most unbalanced Ford head ever, with perfect exhaust ports, and very , very small intakes, becasue it was designed by Honda in Japan to a Ford Australia brief, using all the inputs from the old Lean Burn Four Cylinder project Ford and Honda did togehter in the mid 70's.


Everything changed in 1984-1/2 with th advent of headers and low restriction four catalyst exhausts, and then with roller cams. Ford did some great work on the V8 EFi engines, and changed the intake to exhasut split, the lobe angle, and from 1984, started using the Power Control Module to run the ingtion advance to control idle speeds and smoothness in adverse conditions. At lash duration went up, so did 50 thou figures, and they used electronics to tune out bad idles. Or, in the case of the few Saleens than came with the E303 roller cam, tuned in the B-A-D idle, and thats what everyone loves about a bad a$$ 5.0 Mustang. Idle chop!



I've seen Jerry Cantrell's latest cam recomendations, and they are generally very conservative. One done on Feb 7, 2018 was in my opinion, wrong for the combination supplied. ITB EFi, approx 220 cfm intake flow, 250 six with 4 stage auto. It was so far off Georges, and way, way off the Australian Dean Tigue cam. US cam selections use too much V8 histronics that don't relate to full house street in line sixes with Holley or Megasquirt port EFI control systems.

Having said all that, I love Schneider. Schneider cams back up and its cam selections appear to be based on the over rIding issue that nearly all US in line six cylinder guys have...."my Ford in liner won't idle smoothly." If its gonna take out a V8 on the street, then idle shouldn't be concern No 1 fellas.

I'm convinced that Schneider under recommend duration, lift and lobe center, not because they don't understand full house cams, but because they know that 90% of Ford Six Cylinder guys are a heck of a lot more conservative than Ford V8 guys, and that a smaller cam won't suffer break in and low speed drivablity problems, a primary issue for aftermarket cam buyers today.


All the recomendations I've seen leave a lot of power and mid range torque on the table, instead on in your in line engine. Use Fuel and Igntion EFi manages air fuel and idle tip in to fix off the cam issues. If a 2-bbl CFi 1985 Mustang used a cam milder than your Schneider 256h recomendation, then the Schneider recomendation isn't man enough for the job. Any time you loose two cylinders, 102 cubic inches,and add a turbo, you'll need to have a much racier than a good Ford 302-361 V8 "benchmark"cam.

A traditional Cobra Jet or Torino 73 351 Marine cam was what the 5.0 GT's and the non Saleen SVT R351 1994 Mustang used....

the D3OE-6250-AA cam for 1973 Torino/1982 GT 5.0/ 1984 5.0 GT or RS HO CFI / 1985 HO AOD/ 5.8 Lightening 260° intake, 278 (or 274 by another source)° exhaust

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=71872

84-85 5.0L CFI
Cam OE Number Type Int Lift Exh Lift Int Dur Exh Dur Int Dur@.050 Exh Dur@.050 Lobe Centerline
D3OE-6250-AA Hydraulic .416 .445 260 274 198 208 114.5

Split lobe cams were Fords total solution to getting cars to make low end torque while still giving okay emmissions. The culmination of them was the 1985 to 1993 Ford Motorsport "Deadly Letter" Roller Cams.

The cam choices sugested are just too conservative for me, and they typically over scavange like all Ford performance cams from 1968 to 1985.


Ford learned to widen the lobe center and not be affraid of extra 50 thou duration with the advent of EFi.

We should be doing the same thing, even with solid lifter flat tappet cams.
 
Another conservative cam choice. But the recomendation is on the right track. So Jerry clearly makes his recommendations to suit his clients.


viewtopic.php?f=22&t=75914&p=592310#p592310
"Turbo 200 in 1967 MGB"
SynchromeshWines":2r23e2q6 said:
Hi Guys,
Some of you may have seen that a couple of us MGB owners were experimenting with a 200-6 transplant into an MGB. I'm one of them...
I have a 1967 MGB modified to fit a 200 t5 combo. The engine sits back nice and far and also quite low so balance should be good. The engine/trans combo actually weighs less than the original 4 banger thanks to thin wall casting. I have also fitted a coil over 4-link rear end and corresponding front suspension and brake modifications.

I have an aluminum head on order with Matt, Turbo curved DUI Distributor and am likely going to give the FiTech 600hp power adder fuel injection unit a go. It is on the large size for a NA 200 with aluminum head but should be in a good space with blow through turbo setup. Is anyone else running one on a small six? I have a custom grind cam from Schneider with the following specs:


intake 280 duration 220 @ .050" .450" lift
exhaust 270 duration 214 @ .050" .440" lift
114 lobe center


I picked up 2 Holset turbos to start the build with and will be running a front mounted intercooler. One is a HX35 with about 100,000kms on it and the other is a low mile rebuilt HY35W (internally wastegated). From my research the HY35 and HX35 wastegates are set around 17-20psi from the earlier cummins. Is anyone running a similar sized Holset with the internal wastegate? If so were you able to adjust the actuator far enough to get boost psi to a more reasonable range? What PSI are you finding it boosts to and can the wastegate keep up with boost creep on a 200? I am planning on using the HY35 unless I find it too small on top end then may just switch the exhaust housing/turbine to something more appropriate.

If I don't have to go to an external wastegate right away I would rather not for simplicity. I'm sure I'll have plenty of kinks to work out with the entire setup and having a more straight forward exhaust setup during all the in and outs will be preferable.

Thanks, I would welcome any input and advice. This is my first foray into the Falcon six and turbocharging but not my first engine build. I have gone through a few high performance ford big blocks and mgb engines.

Alan

PS: here is the build thread on the MG Experience forums http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?40,2895734
 
I also agree the 256 is less that what 67 needs but the 300 may be to much, the split needs more testing in my opinion.

67 please tell us what pistons you are using ( aluminum ) is not a answer..I fell for that already . ;) What is your planed upper maximum shift point? You have stock piston's?
Also about the turbo, what size comp.inducer, turbine exducer, and turbine AR.?....This will help us understand more. :thanks:
I have no problem with a higher idle, helps keep the cam well oiled. I still favor solid cam on these one valve cover engines, the sound is classic.
By the way the engine sound great. (y) ...I am more stoked about getting my efi done, maybe to much, went wrong way, cut corner off of a trigger tooth and is in bad spot to make missing :banghead:
 
I think you all good. Its the injector sequencing and fuel tables you need to experiement with first. If your cam is installed straight up and set at the correct lash figures.

The head has been ported - I'm using 1.46 ex. and 1.75 int. - have forged pistons and a.r.p. bolts
I'm using Holley HP for my fuel and ignition management and Ford throttlebody


And focus on how you have to run your 36 lb/hr black injectors.

The pulse width and injector impedence has to suit the Holley HP, and the ingition tip in has to be mapped to control idle surge. You've got a 3000 rpm C4 stall converter?

Jimbo65 had a heck of a job with running a 130 amp alternator, and if you have electric colling fans and a rope seal or engine that isn't run in and the cam timed to suit the actual gasoline your using, it'll take awhile to tune the base idle. When the A/C cuts in in drive, wit the power steering on full lock, you just have to use ignition advance modulation to enure the idel is stable. Unloaded, you can use a differing advance tip in.


Back to where it is head flow wise.


The head has to be flowing less than 155 cfm at 520 thou to have a 5000 rpm peak power rpm. I'm fairly certain your peak flow will be a hack of a lot more than that.

If you had 155 cfm, that's not going to make much more than 205 hp at 5000 rpm with 155 cfm flow. You then add your 12 pounds of boost, and it'll make 370 horsepower with an intercooler.


You need a Clay Smith Solid cam with 274 degrees at that level, like Crosley uses. He passes through the traps at 6200rpm, so power is likely to be at 5400 rpm with his direct mount 500 cfm Holley 2-bbl. His peak cylinder head flow will be about 155 cfm at 490 thou lift.

I'd say the peak cfm would be a lot higher than 155 cfm with your intake on, most likely 180 cfm, with the head flowing more than 190 cfm bare at 520 thou lift.

Fast64Ranchero, JTTurbo used the sawn off log, and looked to get about 175 cfm without any real major port work on the intake.


The figures Fast64Ranchero used were bare head flow figures, with a hard edge adaptor, not the same as your RHS intake, which will most likely have a flow drop of only 5% at wide open throttle.


Now, talking as an egg head. Despite a technically wrong cut off log heads port shape,

ie with the injectors in the high flow zone,

and even with a stagnant port floor,

the average size of the ports is still huge....well over a 1.65" diameter equivalant circle. Size is not the issue, Pipe Max and other programs have you covered with any effective port size from 1.65 inch circle to 1.75 inches giving you all the flow potential to make even 370 to 420 hp WithOut a turbo.

its the shape that gives great cfm.



Your cam choice is fine as it has a wider lobe angle between itake and exhaust, and the way the injectors are pulse tuned and set electrically and the way you have the ignition are ramped is how to settle the idle. You've got cam retard and advance to check, and you can alter lash to ensure you get a 185 psi cold cranking compression.

Question 1 .

What is your static compression,
cold craking compression
and your idle vacuum at 950 rpm loaded with A/C, P/S and C4 in drive.
and your idle vacuum at 950 rpm unloaded without A/C, P/S and C4 in neutral .


With you cam set straight up, that then gives me your dynamic compression ratio,

What your peak and Dynamic compression ratio is with the exhaust closing event you have. That governs what octane gas you cna use with your planned boost. That gives me a few clues as to how to trim your ignition.



So your dynamic compression ratio is controlled by where the cam is dialed in, and what your exhaust and intake lash figures are. If you feel the cam is too big, you can put more lost motion in the tappet clearnace, and change the cam from straight up. Idle can be softened drastically, and you need to see what the idle MAP figures are to see if you need to make basic changes.

I start with the cam at the grinders recomendation, and at the specified lash, then read idle vacuum in Inches of water. If you've got less than 15, then you just need to fiddle with the base cam phasing.


All engines with less exhaust duration and lift are easy to tune to get great vacuum compared to a cam that is 300/300 at lash, or 240/240 at 50 thou.


The idle of a 3.3 liter in line six with 240 and 236 degrees of 50 thou lift is normally very sweet.

Down here, production Holden Torana XU1's 1972-1973 had factory option production Wade XH 383 and XJ 391 or XJ373 cams, real factory 312, or 326 degree at lash solid lifter camshafts that made 216 to 250 hp on production racing cars. Last ones in race cars were XJ cams and had 241 duration at 50 thou and just and 452 thou lift. EFi on a wide lobe helps the 300/290 at lash cams run a lot nicer than an old Triple Stromberg CDS175 carb engine.


Here is how it idles, in the dyno room, and in the car. A 326 degree cam with 22 degree rams, 241 degree 50 thou lift

[bbvideo=560,315]https://youtu.be/jYyHfsf1hJE[/bbvideo]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYyHfsf1hJE


[bbvideo=560,315]https://youtu.be/L340kHosZvU[/bbvideo]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L340kHosZvU


When you have an open exhaust without a turbo, it sounds just like your engine did on first start up.


[bbvideo=560,315]https://youtu.be/T4eM--NfKrQ[/bbvideo]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4eM--NfKrQ


Remember, people at Ford spent millions on sound deadening, and making cast alloy intakes, steel tube manderel bent headers, and then going back to cast iron and plastic intake manifolds.

It won't idle like a 252 or 256 factory cam with 380 thou lift, but EFI really tones down once you get a handle on the igntion and make sure you use the right injectors. The cam can be rephased without too much performance loss if the cold cranking compression is in the sweet zone of 185 psi.


Just like the old 351 C 4V HO engines with the 300 degree cam. Don't go back to a lower rent cam with less duration. Tune it to suit.
 
This build as been an experiment - I wanted to try some things that I haven't seen done and it basically has taken on a life of it's own. I have to admit this car has turned more into a track car than street car - so some of the parameters have changed. I'll put the car on a dyno and see what the hp curve is and go from there because right now everything is speculation. I've done all the idle tuning I can until the car is actually on the road.
Here's the turbo I have:
Turbonetics T3 - T4E 50 trim/62 turbine wheel/T3 82AR turbine housing
Pistons are Racetec custom forged pistons
65mm throttle body (instead of 63mm)
Right now I'm running 3.00 rear end gears, but that is going to change to either a 3.5 or 3.73 (I want to drive the car before making that decision)
Everything else is the same as my original plan

It's good to see you back xctasy - I can't give you some info because the ac is not hooked up yet - and not sure if I ever stated this but I'm running a manual transmission. Enjoyed the videos.
 
I assure you about 244 thou is just right if its manual and the head doesn't flow as well as an Aussie cross flow or worked CNC ported Bathurst 3300 Holden 9 or 12 port head.

Camminess is due to other things....as you port the head, you loose air speed, and when its sub crtical, it then screws up idle.

Most of your issues are likely to be reverberation from the materials you've used to make the intake, exhaust and that's making you think you'v over cooked it. Hence the very conservative cam profiles US cam grinders(even Clay Smith) use and recommend.


So take heart and cary on with it. The Holden videos are just an example of how a 312 to 326 degree cam with manual gear box sound in the dyno cell, in the stock production car, and in the race car. Each is an exaple of how far you can go.

Your noware near over cooking it on idle because you don't have the peak head flow CFM figures someone like Mike1157's auto, 250 cross flow turbo had. had. If you remove and automatic gearbox, and take off 50 cubic inches, a cam in the 230 to 244 50 thou lift idles the same as an auto 250.


Ford Australia always made 3.3's manuals, and 4.1 automatics from the same basic engine block. Do do that, Ford used the same carb jetting or similar CFi mapping. Axle ratios were put numerically upwards(3.23's verses 2.92's or 2.77's or 3.08's) , and dropped downwards when the capacity was added.

In the Torana, it ran a close ratio four speed, and had 3.08 or 3.36:1 gears without and overdriven 4th gear.

Individual runner EFi cars have a supremely docile idle if tuned right, even over the 300 degree mark with low compression. It's like the old K code 271 hp 289 cam in a 63-67 Hi Po v8 Fairlane or Mustang. It's just got a lumpy idle...not a psychotic one. Everyone will love it, and even as a daily driver, you'd love it too. Back then, they didn't have 5 speed gearboxes and wide ratio 4 speed automatics and EFi to tame the edgy-ness off idle a 310 degree cam had. Your at a point below that level. The reason they only sold 18000 K code engines was just that...it was too wild for Auntie Jane. Your not Auntie Jane.....As was said back in the 90's as advice to a guy making a 280 degree cammed Holden 3.3 eat V8's. If you want it to take out a V8, it won't idle like a stock 240 or 260 degree cam in a 1-bbl 3.3 six. The good thing is, 200 cube sixes with 1-bbls never idled any good anyway, so you can go a lot choppier with cam choice the moment you add multiple carbs or port EFi. That is worth 40 degrees on any stock at lash cam reading, and about 32 degrees on the 50 thou figure. A triple carbed 200 cube six with a 232 degree 50 thou cam idles like a 1-bbl 200 with 200 degrees 50 thou.

That's how it works with our sixes, especially the little T code Ford 200's because of its rod ratio and its lack of inclination to rev being even less than the old Holden 3.3 liter engines. Adding a cam, carbs or EFi to them turned the 202 cars into rampant fire breathing machines. The idles even up to 312 degrees peak duration were pretty stable. When you added a big gun exhaust, they suddenly got a lot noiser and cagey, but the factory XUI Bathurst cars came out with 312 cams with over 225 degrees of 50 thou lift.


That's your benchmark. EFi with a wider lobe center mops up the idle roughness even with 244/236 intake and exhaust.
 
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