Going turbo

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sortafast
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Going turbo

Post #1 by sortafast » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:37 pm

Just starting the process of refurbing the wife's 66 I6. The goal is to make this thing mean. So far the plan is to go EFI, get the Aluminum head and a bunch of other things. The goal being to make an efficient and power full car that will go around corners. So I am starting the build out and am looking for things like what CR to go with, cam, pistons, turbo, etc. I am being told that one can run forged pinto pistons, but I have no detains on this as of yet. It would suck to have to order 2 sets of pistons, but if that's what needs to happen then so be it. What else should I look at doing? We will be doing all of the fab work in house for the intake, exhaust etc (the benefits of owning a machine MFG company that is partnered with a highend fab shop that is right across the parking lot from a diesel tuning shop that has a dyno). I will likely going all out for this build so that I can make the wife happy. A\

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Re: Going turbo

Post #2 by pmuller9 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:49 pm

You need to have the finished head first before looking at pistons.
The combustion chamber size will determine the piston dish volume.

I'm assuming you want to run high boost with an intercooler?

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Re: Going turbo

Post #3 by sortafast » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:30 pm

pmuller9 wrote:You need to have the finished head first before looking at pistons.
The combustion chamber size will determine the piston dish volume.

I'm assuming you want to run high boost with an intercooler?

Going to run an intercooler, as high of boost as I can get away with and maintain reliability and a bunch of other stuff. I am getting a little ADHD with this thing and going all over the place. Probably going to pull the motor in the next month or 2 and start in on it. Got a message from Matt about the head, and it sounds like they won't be available until sometime this summer, which is kind of a bummer that it's still 6ish months away, but I have waited 10+ years to start in on this thing so another six months ain't gonna kill me. Gives me time to buy up all the EFI things that I will need, pull the motor and get any machine work sorted. Plus I need to build a new transmission cross member as the one we got for the T5 swap we did on it years ago sucks.

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Re: Going turbo

Post #4 by pmuller9 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:29 pm

Are you still looking at MegaSquirt with port injection?
Keeping the T5 tranny?

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sortafast
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Re: Going turbo

Post #5 by sortafast » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:46 am

pmuller9 wrote:Are you still looking at MegaSquirt with port injection?
Keeping the T5 tranny?

Keeping the T5 unless there is a better 5spd. Just found out that a guy I know is a distributor for Haltech ECU's. So I might go that route. But the plan is to do multiport with a custom aliminum intake, and we will be doing a distributorless ignition system as well. Got big plans and enough connections to make this all happen. The crappy part will be trying to find forged rod and pistons as it seems they only make em down under anymore.

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Re: Going turbo

Post #6 by pmuller9 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:28 am

As far as I know the stock 1966 Ford 200 rod is forged.
The rods will need to have the beams polished and shot peened and resized with ARP rod bolts.
There are many piston manufacturers here in the states that will make the exact piston you need.

The Haltech Elite 750 has 6 drivers for injectors and six outputs for distributorless ignition along with all other inputs and outputs you need.
No matter which system you use, if you are going distributorless ignition it is best if a crankshaft 60-2 wheel is used for timing and you can use the modified distributor to deliver the cam sync pulse and drive the oil pump.
The Haltech as well as many other ECUs recognize this signal combination.
The 60-2 wheel installation on the harmonic balancer hub and pickup is something you can start working on right away.

Are you having the aluminum head ported?
Last edited by pmuller9 on Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Going turbo

Post #7 by sortafast » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:41 pm

pmuller9 wrote:As far as I know the stock Ford 200 rod is forged.
The rods will need to have the beams polished and shot peened and resized with ARP rod bolts.
There are many piston manufacturers here in the states that will make the exact piston you need.

The Haltech Elite 750 has 6 drivers for injectors and six outputs for distributorless ignition along with all other inputs and outputs you need.
No matter which system you use, if you are going distributorless ignition it is best if a crankshaft 60-2 wheel is used for timing and you can use the modified distributor to deliver the cam sync pulse and drive the oil pump.
The Haltech as well as many other ECUs recognize this signal combination.
The 60-2 wheel installation on the harmonic balancer hub and pickup is something you can start working on right away.

Are you having the aluminum head ported?

Yeah, I haven't been into this motor yet. I usually hate working on my daily cars, but I can't wait to start in on this. Going to be making a lot of full custom things for it. That's good to know on the rods though. I will likely get them magnifluxed and inspected prior to any polishing and peening. I kind of like the idea of putting in new rods though, I don't know why. Maybe it's just piece of mind.

I am probably going to go with the haltech just because the guy I know can help me tune it and there is another excellent local tuning shop that runs them too. The 750 is what I was recommended.

More questions though, what kind of boost can these motors handle? I don't want to go nuts as we won't be drag racing it, but I would like to take it to track days as well as smoke fools on the streets should the need arise. Also, what is a good target compression ratio? I am thinking between 8.5 and 9 to 1 maybe? That's what my research is saying. What cam would go well with the turbo? Also, looking at the roller rockers. Anything else I should look at for this guy? I am kind of venturing out of my knowledge base on this one and will likely have to rely on others for recommendations for things through out this project. My father in law (the guy who gave my wife this car) does a lot of resto work on stangs so he knows a lot about body work and some with the motors, but EFI is something that he doesn't play with much. Same thing with turbos. At the end of the day I want this car to be super bad and a head turner as well as to be fast as heck.

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Re: Going turbo

Post #8 by pmuller9 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:39 pm

I understand about feeling safer with new aftermarket rods.
The only aftermarket rod that I see that comes close is the Toyota 3TC
They come 4.843" or 4.850" long, the rod journal is 1.88" and the big end width is 1.054"
The Ford crank rod journal could turned down to 1.88" and the big end of the rod can be narrowed .060" to fit the Ford .994" width.
Both Eagle and Molnar make the rod. Molnar is a better quality rod but cost more than the Eagle
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp- ... gLaBPD_BwE
http://molnarrods.com/toyota-3tc-connecting-rods

The other option is have Molnar make a custom rod that matches the Ford 200 rod which is costly.

The 7 main 200 is a stout little block and can handle plenty of power.
With enough head flow you should be able to make about 400 hp at or below 6000 rpm with 15 lbs of boost.
A turbo cam for this application has 114* of lobe separation angle to minimize overlap and high lift in the .500" range.
The exhaust system you fabricate will have some bearing on final cam specs.
There were complaints about the aluminum head needing longer valves to accommodate higher lifts so that is something that still may need to be addressed.

A 9:1 limit on the compression ratio will allow plenty of boost without making the tune-up very critical.

A Borg Warner 200SX-E (57mm inducer) with a T4 twin scroll .83 A/R exhaust housing will get the job done.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Going turbo

Post #9 by sortafast » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:50 pm

Awesome. Good info. Got a bit more sorting out to do, then its playing the piecemeal game with all this so that maybe by the summer when the head arrives, everything is ready to rock. Gonna get the Head ported and such. Will the roller rockers help much? Especially with the higher leverage ratio? Would I need to get different springs and such? Gonna be a lot of stuff going on inside this engine. Hopefully I can clean up the engine bay at the same time and make everything look fabulous.

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Re: Going turbo

Post #10 by pmuller9 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:32 pm

Yes, roller rockers are always recommended for valve lifts near .500" and over on these engines.
It reduces valve stem side loading with higher valve lift and higher valve spring loads.
The valve tip and rocker fulcrum friction is eliminated for increased longevity.

Valve springs will depend on what the cam card specs call for and how high you want to rev the engine.
Generally boosted application calls for more seat pressure and not so much for open pressure.
You will have to see what comes with the head.

Change of subject: Which ignition coils are you thinking about using?

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Re: Going turbo

Post #11 by sortafast » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:47 am

pmuller9 wrote:Change of subject: Which ignition coils are you thinking about using?

Not 100% sure as of yet. Like many things with this project, I am just starting to look and see what is out there.

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Re: Going turbo

Post #12 by pmuller9 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:30 pm

I've been thinking about the Eagle and Molnar rod suggestion I made using a 1.88" rod journal.
I would not hesitate using that combination for a naturally aspirated application.
I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with taking that much material off the crankshaft rod journals for a high rpm, high torque turbo engine.

Since the stock rods are only 4.71" long they should be a very rigid piece and can be rebuilt into a usable performance part.

Would like to see a photo of the rods when you get the chance to take the engine apart.

There is always the custom rod.

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Re: Going turbo

Post #13 by sortafast » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:56 am

I will see what these rods look like. Cleaning them up and polishing them shouldn't be an issue. I would like to just buy some stronger aftermarket ones, but I have a feeling that custom rods will be a bit on the expensive side of things. I know I can get rods from a company down under, but their rod/piston combo would be in the $2100 neighborhood which is a fairly big chunk of change.

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Re: Going turbo

Post #14 by pmuller9 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:30 pm

pmuller9 wrote:I've been thinking about the Eagle and Molnar rod suggestion I made using a 1.88" rod journal.
I would not hesitate using that combination for a naturally aspirated application.
I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with taking that much material off the crankshaft rod journals for a high rpm, high torque turbo engine.


I looked at "fast64ranchero" engine specs and he used a 1.88" rod journal to offset grind a 250 crank for more stroke.
That engine is making over 400 hp with 18 lbs of boost
If a 250 crank can stay alive with a 1.88 rod journal on a 4.125" stroke, a 200 crank, 1.88" rod journal on a 3.126" stroke should certainly not have a problem.
I take back my concerns for using the 1.88" journal aftermarket rods.
viewtopic.php?p=403854#p403854

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Re: Going turbo

Post #15 by drag-200stang » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:45 am

The 66 will have c3 forged rods, they come in at 515 grams when polished . Do not remove any more materiel than necessary..They make a good NA rod they will not break even when bent.
Under boost they are a little on the light side and If you are not to bright and you over boost it with lean cylinders and bad timing the rods on the heavy detonating cylinders will self adjust to what makes it happy.
But today with mpefi and you set safety parameters in the ecu, this should not be a problem...If the budget is tight, running a lighter forged piston with a thick pin and you are not trying to set the world on fire, I would give it a go..If you go with an better rod ,this engine has been stroked twice, it is tight in the case, the cam is scalloped all ready, watch that...Before you take it apart note where you may have problems.

On the reduced rod journal, that will give you more room but I chickened out and when with chevy rod size 2.100 and and clearance is a huge problem with a bulky AL rod, steel would be better. The 250 crank has larger mains and a much heaver unit.. Maybe Fast will chime in...This is uncharted territory for a 200..It is all about compromise.
Last edited by drag-200stang on Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: Going turbo

Post #16 by sortafast » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:44 pm

So, where would be a good place to go for forged rods then? Custom or otherwise? This is kind of going to be a money is no object kind of build. I wan the motor to be stout and be able to handle some boost. Don't want to go too crazy as I want it to be drivable on the street. But I still want it to go like a Bat out heck when my foot gets heavy. Only downer is that I don't know my way around the inside of motors super well. I have done a few rebuilds, but don't know many tricks for making things go fast. All the rebuilding I have done was to make cars/trucks work, not get speeding tickets. Got some good help with my father in law, but the work he does in restoring stangs is no where near what I want to do, performance wise, with this 200.

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Re: Going turbo

Post #17 by pmuller9 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:34 am

For custom rods that are made to your specs or the stock 200 rod dimensions:

http://www.oliverracingparts.com/
https://www.crower.com/
http://www.k1technologies.com/
http://www.cunninghamrods.com/products.html
http://www.molnartechnologies.com/rods-domestic.html

Oliver Rods has always been one of the best.

You will want to match the rod with 2618 alloy pistons.
We use Diamond pistons.
I would look at a Spherical dish piston rather than a stepped dish.
JE pistons developed the Spherical dish and Randy who was part of that development team now works under the Race Tec piston name.

Also if the piston has an accumulator groove between the first and second piston ring, that gives you the option of using a ZGS (zero gap second) piston ring which reduces blow-by under boost.
They are exclusive to BWE piston rings.
I was able to pick up 2 inches of crankcase vacuum in our blown alky engine.

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Re: Going turbo

Post #18 by drag-200stang » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:32 pm

pmuller ,Thanks for putting up those sites.
I never would have seen that Molnar has a toyota 1jz rod #TH4931MFB6 That looks doable at 4.931 length 2.166 big end bore, for a 2.047 crank pin, 1.020 BE width, and a 22 mm pin. They come as a 6 pack....what do you think, plenty of room for a good ring pac. The .076 reduction in the crank pin is not a lot and gives the grinder room for a large radius in the fillet, may be even be stronger...Clearance fitment would have to be checked out.
Please check my finding and math and give us your valued opinion.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

pmuller9
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Re: Going turbo

Post #19 by pmuller9 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:09 pm

I get a compression height of 1.314" which is plenty room for rings.

The Molnar rods are only .026" wider than the stock rods.
.013" can easily be machined off each side of the big end to get the rod side clearance.
I'm assuming the 200 rods are .994" wide at the BE

This looks like the solution to "sortafast" connecting rod needs.

http://molnarrods.com/toyota-1jz-rods

Nice find!

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Re: Going turbo

Post #20 by drag-200stang » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:58 pm

pmuller9 wrote:I get a compression height of 1.314" which is plenty room for rings.

The Molnar rods are only .026" wider than the stock rods.
.013" can easily be machined off each side of the big end to get the rod side clearance.
I'm assuming the 200 rods are .994" wide at the BE

This looks like the solution to "sortafast" connecting rod needs.

http://molnarrods.com/toyota-1jz-rods

Nice find!

:thumbup: :beer:
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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sortafast
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Re: Going turbo

Post #21 by sortafast » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:35 am

pmuller9 wrote:I get a compression height of 1.314" which is plenty room for rings.

The Molnar rods are only .026" wider than the stock rods.
.013" can easily be machined off each side of the big end to get the rod side clearance.
I'm assuming the 200 rods are .994" wide at the BE

This looks like the solution to "sortafast" connecting rod needs.

http://molnarrods.com/toyota-1jz-rods

Nice find!

hmm...that is interesting and relevant to my interests. Need to get this motor apart and start looking at what all I need and measure stuff. Gotta get my suburban cleaned up and sold first though.

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