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New guy with turbo 200 question

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roostriz
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New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #1 by roostriz » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:00 pm

Hey all,
I've been reading through many of the back posts for a while and recently became a member. I picked up a 65 FB with a 200 in decent shape. I am seriously exploring the possibility of running a turbo on this motor for a relatively inexpensive budget. What I have in mind is the stock lower end with a late 250 head, a t3/t04b, intercooler, and 2 brl carb. This is a weekend driver but I'd like it to be reliable enough to drive several hundred miles and not worry about it blowing up. Is 275-300 flywheel horsepower realistic under these constraints, what do you guys think?

Chris

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #2 by thesameguy » Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:16 pm

Nobody has answered, so I'll throw in my $0.02...

Nope, I don't think that's realistic at all. 300hp on a stock 250 is going to mean a LOT of boost, and I'm not even sure a 2bbl (much less the log intake) can flow that much. I'll bet Classic Inlines or the Performance Handbook has addressed the upper output limits of the stock head/intake, but I would be shocked to find it's much more than 200hp. Even given that they can, I don't think the bottom end is going to put up with that much abuse.

Given the stock head/intake, but with the right cam, carb, exhaust, intercooler, turbo, and fuel system you could probably get to somewhere in the neighborhood of 200hp, but on the upside you'll be making piles and piles of torque. That plus the right gearing can get you a pretty quick car. Like they say, people shop horsepower but they buy torque...

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #3 by MPGmustang » Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:39 pm

275-300 flywheel turbo HP is possible from 200ci.

you'll need about 15lbs of boots
intercooler
waste gate
2bbl carb direct mounted (or 2bbl TB using mega squirt)
some way to retard top timing when under X boost
CR of roughly 8-8.5:1
good cam with close to stock overlap but little more duration, not too much duration though
stock rocker ratio
ARP rod bolts
Classic inline's double roller chain (to help dial in the advance more accurately)
hardened pistons, rods, push rods


Does10's has thier falcon @ 450 FW HP and dyno tested 350wrhp and they run 15lbs boost on thier 250ci. so 300 flywheel should be attainable. granted they are running the alum head, but IIRC they tried the log head and did very well too.

http://classicinlines.com/Dyno1.asp
here they got 280rwhp with the log head, now they put alot of money into the build, and I'm sure if you kept it basic you can easily make 215-240rwhp (roughly 275-325fwhp)

now they are running a c4, which looses roguhly 25% (I'm over shooting losses) vs a manual 15% (again over estimating losses) so thier 280rwhp was roughly 375fwhp... if it was a manual it would have been roughly 315hp...
then guestimate 20% cube inch loss... this will effect torque more than HP, as the 200 likes to rev faster than the 250.

I say go for it. sounds like fun and very achieveable. you will have to put $$ into it, to get the desired output, but it will be worth it and will be reliable as long as it's built right.
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
75 bronco-SOLD-v8 c4 dana 20 33's and disk brakes, locker front/rear.

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #4 by thesameguy » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:15 pm

It's important to note that Does10s is doing 10s on E85. You will get wildly different output numbers running E85 than standard pump gas, especially under boost. A turbo engine making ~300hp on E85 is probably 200-220hp on standard 93 octane pump gas. Maybe less, depending on the specific build.

That said, there is certainly nothing wrong with building for E85. You just need to know your driving range will be drastically reduced, since E85 has a lower power density than pump gas. That additional power doesn't come for free!

Whoops - my mistake... looks like only the second run (with the AL head) was done on E85!

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #5 by MPGmustang » Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:46 pm

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24859&start=235

linc'200 took a stock engine and got 13.5's, I'm guestimating 3300LBs??? vehicle (if it's heavier then HP will go up, less and goes down) that calculates out to 260HP... @ 20psi boost. on 100LL gas... not the same as pump but closer than E85... all with a 1bbl.

taking the same for kelly's 2700lbs??? falcon @ 10.68 gives 435hp...

I'm positive that the 200ci will give 300hp under boost... or at least give the 'fun' of what you are looking for.
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
75 bronco-SOLD-v8 c4 dana 20 33's and disk brakes, locker front/rear.

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #6 by thesameguy » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:08 pm

Oh, sure, it will do it - but it's not going to do it on a stock motor with a 2bbl carb. You need some serious guts to put up with 300hp - forged crank, pistons, big valves, good cam, etc. You can't just bolt a turbo onto an engine and pump 15psi into it and expect it to work for very long. In Linc's own post he said he was using a quart of oil every pass down the strip and "pinging like crazy." Neither of those are symptoms of an engine with a long life in front of it.

Everyone is of course entitled to do what they want, but IMHO/IME you are not going to be able to run 15psi on any motor that wasn't explicitly made for it. 5psi? Sure. 10psi? Maybe. 15psi? Not in your wildest dreams.

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #7 by Invectivus » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:20 am

I agree you SHOULD forge up your bottom end for forced induction, and I would for sure, but I'm almost positive Kelly's bottom end is stock. At least I read a post a year or so that said it, might not be true any longer, but they had a lot of time on the bottom end.

the log head sees a lot of benefit from a turbo, as it is so restrictive NA. I don't personally think you need to go with the large log head, and I've heard you get more bang by keeping stock intake port sizes but bump up the exhaust valve size.

it's still a huge risk, and like thesameguy said, depends on your boost, and the level of risk adversion you have.
1967 mustang coupe - 200ci, 69 dizzy, adjustable rockers, headers and dual exhaust, T5.

1964 convertible falcon - Gutted.

1973 EB Bronco - 302ci (sorry!) DUI ignition, C4/D20, Dana 44, 33's

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #8 by roostriz » Sat May 05, 2012 10:50 pm

Thanks for the replies guys. I actually have read all of Linc's stuff prior to posting and have been speaking with Does10's via PM. I am going to give it a shot, I'm not sure where I'll end up with this thing but time will tell. Gonna stick with the stock internals and hopefully they hold on. If not then it will be time for a beefier engine.

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #9 by Does10s » Mon May 07, 2012 10:02 am

Guess I'd better chime in here!

Kelly's "bottom end" isn't stock. Manley forged rods, JE forged pistons, custom "turbo" friendly cam, modified crank to accept a SBF timing set, o-ringed block, 1/2" head studs, Hardbloc half filled water jackets.
I think that's about it.
We used to use stock stuff of course. But unfortunately both of those blocks ended up in the recycling yard!
A stock motor will handle some abuse, but if you have any fuel or timing issues, boom. But if you're using a Corteco or Felpro head gasket, you'll likely push out one of those long before any serious damage will occur.

Also for the record....we're no longer running E85. Haven't been since we switched to EFI.
The main reason.....consistancy! Pump E85 wasn't 85% alcohol from season to season. Even week-to-week the amount of water content changed. I was constently chasing the tune up!
So out with the E85 and in with Torco110. Now for the street we do add in some pump 91 octane from time to time.

Later,
Will
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'86 Mustang, Turbocharged, Best ET: 10.70@132.
'69 Mustang Sportsroof, 351w, auto
'63 Falcon, Turbocharged 250, C4, 9", Best ET: 10.64@127mph 11/21/14

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #10 by thesameguy » Mon May 07, 2012 6:58 pm

That is awesome information - thanks!

Just out of my own curiosity, what head gasket is it running? Something off the shelf, or copper, or?

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #11 by Does10s » Tue May 08, 2012 2:29 pm

Copper
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'86 Mustang, Turbocharged, Best ET: 10.70@132.
'69 Mustang Sportsroof, 351w, auto
'63 Falcon, Turbocharged 250, C4, 9", Best ET: 10.64@127mph 11/21/14

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #12 by MPGmustang » Tue May 08, 2012 4:53 pm

roostriz wrote:Thanks for the replies guys. I actually have read all of Linc's stuff prior to posting and have been speaking with Does10's via PM. I am going to give it a shot, I'm not sure where I'll end up with this thing but time will tell. Gonna stick with the stock internals and hopefully they hold on. If not then it will be time for a beefier engine.


sounds like a plan,

stock bottom end
2bbl head conversion
turbo

ramp it up until you get desired performance.
then give it a shot... :twisted:


I understand linc was pinging like crazy, it's kinda expected. but the engine held together anyways for a while. I'm mainly saying I can see an easy turbo 230hp at the tires which is close to 300hp fw... now with only stock parts, hmm, maybe a few laps down the track. but if the parts are beefed up enough I can see a reliable 230rwhp or 300fwhp these engines respond really good to boost. you just need not fear pushing it a little.

go for it, what's the worse than happen? blows up a stock engine? good thing they are cheap to find and replace, just not modify. at least this way you can play with turbo on a stock engine, and all the wonderful weak parts. once you get a great tune you can swap to something more durable and add to the tune. just don't put all your cash on one horse all at once.
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
75 bronco-SOLD-v8 c4 dana 20 33's and disk brakes, locker front/rear.

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #13 by 66Sprint6 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:27 pm

Dont mean to dig this up, but what your tryin to do is COMPLETELY doable!!! I have a 100% stock bottom end 200 with ARP head studs, a mild cam, big log head milled for 2 barrel, QuickFuel 2300 carb and a TE44 turbo. I run 15psi low boost and 20psi high and am actually having a problem with it running too rich. She made 240rwhp/310rwtq on a heartbreaker dyno and 9to1 AFR. SUPER RICH. I drive this sucker everywhere, including an annual trip to Gattlinburg, TN (216 miles one way) for the Shades of the Past car show. I run a highflow (EFI) electric fuel pump into a boost referenced regulator to keep the fuel side happy and love it!!! I USED to run a completely rebuilt bottom end with .060 forged pistons and ARP rod bolts etc but cracked the block installing the ARP head studs after yet another head gasket failure. I tossed the original, bone stock motor in that I got for free and havent blown a gasket since and she hold 20psi like a champ...so far :twisted: We'll see how long it lasts but if you want to be different, beat the import guys up, spook the small block crowd and have a fun, reliable, quick car that turns heads at the shows...then your headed in the right direction!!!

Matt
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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #14 by 66Sprint6 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:35 pm

OH...just make sure to run a stock Felpro headgasket and you will be fine. They are like fuses, they will blow often before anything important does saving you from havin to hunt down another motor! Dont skimp out on the fuel system and you prolly wont even have an issue with headgaskets or pinging.
Matt
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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #15 by MPGmustang » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:37 pm

:nod: :thumbup: :wow:

edit: hey I have a stock 170ci that you can blow up with your first turbo build, that way you don't loose anything... and they bolt up to anything 200ci...
65mustang-SOLD-200ci-t5-scarebird disks-vintage air ac-264/274 110 cam-mav 8inch 3.8 open-350cfm-CI headers
66 Bronco-SOLD-i6 170 - rust bucket never ran...
75 bronco-SOLD-v8 c4 dana 20 33's and disk brakes, locker front/rear.

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #16 by roostriz » Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:33 pm

66Sprint6 wrote:Dont mean to dig this up, but what your tryin to do is COMPLETELY doable!!! I have a 100% stock bottom end 200 with ARP head studs, a mild cam, big log head milled for 2 barrel, QuickFuel 2300 carb and a TE44 turbo. I run 15psi low boost and 20psi high and am actually having a problem with it running too rich. She made 240rwhp/310rwtq on a heartbreaker dyno and 9to1 AFR. SUPER RICH. I drive this sucker everywhere, including an annual trip to Gattlinburg, TN (216 miles one way) for the Shades of the Past car show. I run a highflow (EFI) electric fuel pump into a boost referenced regulator to keep the fuel side happy and love it!!! I USED to run a completely rebuilt bottom end with .060 forged pistons and ARP rod bolts etc but cracked the block installing the ARP head studs after yet another head gasket failure. I tossed the original, bone stock motor in that I got for free and havent blown a gasket since and she hold 20psi like a champ...so far :twisted: We'll see how long it lasts but if you want to be different, beat the import guys up, spook the small block crowd and have a fun, reliable, quick car that turns heads at the shows...then your headed in the right direction!!!

Matt


Matt,
Thanks for the info. It's good to hear from others who have done something similar. I'm still in the parts accumulation stage at this point. My funds have been short over the past year due to a forced job change but things are starting to turn around now. Realistically I hope to have the mechanical end of this done over the summer.
Chris :thumbup:

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #17 by 66Sprint6 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:24 am

Do what you can, when you can with what you can!!! Mine is a LOOOOONG term project with no real goals other than to drive it, have fun and upgrade along the way. Dont get in a hurry and have fun while your at it and the end results will turn out alot better!
Matt
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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #18 by xctasy » Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:17 pm

Take a leaf from Linc 200's and Does10's drag200stang and Georges book.

Lincs and Does10's/ Kelly's you know, but Georges DIY The Turbo Experiemnet is very special. George is a very smart IT guru who makes does specialist blue tooth applications for Holden and other car companies, and makes out he doesn't know much, but he started out many years ago on his journey to I6 Turbo grunt. His Cortina 250 turbo runs a stock engine block with a really strange, almost anti turbo high duration, high lift cam, waste spark igntion, cheap and nasty Wolf 3DEFI, roller rockers, forged pistons but still a stock block, crank and rods with nothing remotely flash asside, and it, um, Does 10's just like Kelly's does. Although its cross flow, its got similar head cfm port flows to any earlier modfifed log head, and less than a 2V 250 or Classic Inlines aluminum head, so you don't need to blow your budget with expensive parts.

See this viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5241

and most importantly, Georges car sold to a new owner, still doing 10's...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=43235&p=518852#p518852

Since the early 80's, lots of US and Australian turbo punters have proven you can do 11 second 1/4 miles on blister packed bearing ring seal and gasketed I6's which are in good initial condition. If you control detonation, you can follow through the upgrades to ensure sucess. If you don't have forged rods, your probably okay, but long term, any post 1975 to 1983 200 cube engine core without foeged rods is a long term durabilty risk.

Mods
the ignition (Duraspark, DU1 or simialr update recurved to suit),
the fuel system with a direct mount 2-bbl,
a better cam for increased rev range
and the better later model head.
Follow the right turbo recomendations by Linc.

Note that A stock 200 sits at about 8 to 8.5:1 compression, has a low duration cam for a 4000 rpm power peak, and is the worlds moost undercarbed, and lowest flowing cylinder head around.

Just add a 41 thou thick Permaset/Monotorque composite head gasket like the 15 US dollar Appco AP630 gasket, not the stock steel 25 thou thick job, and that will drop your compression down to a safe 7 to 7.5:1,

Apply a later model head, a better cam and carb, and your good to go .

Plug for a direct mount 2-bbl 32/36 or 38 DG series Weber, and 8 or 9 pounds of boost, and follow Linc 200's set-up. He used a low mount 1983 X-code 3.3 engine, but if you'd like to use a T5 or C3 or Explorer 4 or 5 speed auto bellhousing, I have a kit that eliminates the right hand starter so you can nest the turbo right back down low like Linc did, and still keep your ancillaries in the stock side.

230 horsepower and 270 lb-ft isn't out of reach on a stock engine

That means a bolt on turbo without much effort.

Stock Ford 183 cubic inch, no changes except Duraspark Ignition, a carb hat, turbo and in that case, the engine came out with a DGAS 38 carb anyway. Its not hard to start with a better log head with direct mount 2-bbl and get about 140 hp and 170 lb-ft stock anyway. Most times you get the 120 cfm intake flow you need to create that horsepower. In my opinion, you'd have to use a higher duration aftermarket cam, then turbo it!


xctasy wrote:Examples? For 1979- 1986 blow throughs, the Weber DGAS 38 on the 1979 TVR 3000 (230 hp, or 90 hp up on the stock Ford of England Essex 60 degree 3 liter V6).

They had a Paxton Thunderbird/Gale Banks/BroadSpeed blow through carb design which was to put a box around a stock multiple barrel carb, and treat it like it was just a 60% bigger engine.

Image

Image

For example, just an 8.5 psi Holset turbo took a stock 2994 cc 142 hp at 5500 rpm and 172 lb-ft at 3000 rpm engine to a stunning 230 hp and 273 lb-ft. 61.9% power, 58.7% up on torque.


Zoom up to large and see http://www.flickr.com/photos/triggersca ... 674093521/
and http://www.flickr.com/photos/triggersca ... 674093557/
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #19 by XFlow_Fairlane » Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:08 pm

I guess I will toss in my turbo 200 comments too having built one.

1. EFI style pump with a return line and decent regulator (return style) -6 or 3/8" lines will be enough. people have gotten stock mechanical pumps to work but I don't think they work well. I was chasing an off idle dead spot on the EBAY speacial 2v I was running. once I swapped to an electric pump and regulator the issue went away (mind you I put about 1000 miles on the car before I swapped)

2. If you run a carb keep the fast idle cam. having no choke it will make it easier to get warmed up.

3. I made a header but you can just as easily do a J-pipe.....I had access to a shop at the time so I made my own.

4. doing it again I would just get a megasquirt 1 with extra code on it. mod a 2.3L OHC ford TFI distributor for the 200 (PM if you have questions). This will give you a locked dizzy and just use the MS for timing control. you will need a 3 bar map sensor if you plan on over 14psi of boost. This will make a swap to EFI easier down the road if you want.

5. There is enough room on the drivers side you could prob mount a nice air/water setup.

6. Don't for get a blow-off valve and a wastegate (you might be able to get buy with an internal wastegate turbo though for these power levels)

7. A stock bottom end will be fine if you are limiting the RPM's (Ms is nice for a rev limiter too) I would just toss in a more agressive than stock cam....nothing real big is needed though.

8. def directmount a carb or TB to a late model log.

9. I would only go this route if you can weld or know someone that can for you. Any homebrewed power adder will require some fab work. If you can make some of the brackets yourself and some of the exhaust it will keep it pretty cheap.

10. I would be temtped to make a elbow to put in place of a direct mount 2v to mount a TB on and run a couple injectors for fuel supply....kinda a semi TBI setup (I would mount the injectors over the opening in the log behind the TB....just do it simple with some plate steel and a exhaust bend)
Rule: Torque = Fun , Turbo's make Torque

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #20 by roostriz » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:36 pm

So I came across a an allegedly rebuilt T04E with A/R of .50/.63 respectively. I am thinking this is workable for my application. What do you guys think?

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #21 by thesameguy » Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:16 pm

Probably more turbo than you need, but should be fine!

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #22 by XFlow_Fairlane » Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:32 pm

I am pretty much going ot be running the same turbo on my Aussie 250.

TO4E .50 trim compressor with a .63 stage II exhaust side. Shoudl flow aorund the 350hp mark which will be a good start I think for getting the car going....left room to step up in size (hopefully)
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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #23 by roostriz » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:25 pm

I think this one is actually a t3/4 hybrid after getting the pics from the guy. I still think it should be fine.

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #24 by thesameguy » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:18 pm

That'd be a good thing in my mind. Not that a 3.3l would have problems spooling up a T04, but a T3 will probably get you on boost a little sooner and make power delivery a little more progressive. You will sacrifice ultimate hp, but probably improve driveability. Most modern cars slightly undersize their turbos so they're running closer to the edge at peak power but deliver full boost at very low RPM, giving a much more linear experience.

I have a big hybrid on my 2.3l XR4Ti, and it's just a little too much turbo for good street performance on that car. An extra liter of displacement would be just about perfect for a great street experience and a fine track experience. Worst thing about too big of a turbo - IMHO - is managing one in corners. You're always fighting between bogging down or breaking loose. I'd rather have more flexibility at the expense of ultimate power... maybe less fast, but certainly more fun. ;)

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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #25 by one70six » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:13 pm

So I have a quick question as I am starting a turbo 200 build as well. I am very impressed with Does10's 63 and a lot of the fellow inliners rides here on the forums but I can't find any information on what aftermarket parts that you guys have used for the bottom ends of your sixes. I know that I need to beef up the stock rotating assembly before I throw some decent boost at it but off the shelf aftermarket parts just aren't readily available for items such as forged or billet rods, etc. Any recommendations on where I could find those type of parts? I'm going to get the full rebuild kit from Classic Inlines w/ forged pistons but it sure would be nice to amp up the rods to hold them. :wink:
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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #26 by xctasy » Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:13 am

The stock seven bearing engine has enough strength for three times the stock power, even with cast rods. Cast rods will break after some cycles, but that's about the only major risk.

Unlike Detroit V8's and V6's, there is no need for forged pistons because the balance and compression and rev range isn't in the same leage as a Z28 302 or Boss 302, so good cast pistons will do everything you need in a 250 to 300 hp engine.

Con rods should be replaced with forged items if you can get them. They are common and easy to change. They suffer fatigue resistence problems if reused and repeatedly leaned on, while the stock forged rods were fine to use

Asside from that, the only problems are rod bolts, which tend to be plastercine under loads, and the stock oil pump should be replace with a good replacement of stock or better than stock flow, with a new oil pickup and new anodised screen. And timing chains. Stock early 250 is fine, twin row aftermarket 200 timming chain is hard to beat.

Stock pistons are geared around compression and what works for a 255 V8 or HSC 2.3 or 2.5 will be strong enough for three times the stock rating in an I6. The 125 gross 200 is about an 85 hp engine (85 to 93 hp factory net). The 155 hp gross 250 was a 98 hp engine (or thereabouts). So that's 255 hp will have no main bearing issues on a formerly 85hp. And 300 hp likewise no issues on a formerly 100 hp engine.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

one70six
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Re: New guy with turbo 200 question

Post #27 by one70six » Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:04 pm

Thanks for the tips xctasy. I'll roll with your suggestions then because that would save me a bundle of cash in the build process as well.
1965 Ford Falcon 4 Door Sedan
Turbo 200 in the works!
http://www.samos65.weebly.com

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