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79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

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Sick6Turbo
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Location: Almond, Wi.

79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #1 by Sick6Turbo » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:24 pm

Hi guys, I have enjoyed reading posts on this forum, certainly the best for an inline enthusiast.

To get things started, here is my build on FTE: http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/13936 ... st15578945

Please take the time to read through it, as most common questions have been asked and answered.

Here are videos: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh21RL ... _as=public
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

pmuller9
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #2 by pmuller9 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:03 pm

Thank you for posting here
I read through your build on FTE.
Very creative solutions and lots of great info.

One observation: Some of the aggressive Lunati lobe profiles have caused lifter stability problems after 5000 rpm on other engines.
The Lunati cam was switched out to a different cam and the problem went away
I'm wondering if that could be contributing to the rpm "brick wall" affect you are seeing.

drag-200stang
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #3 by drag-200stang » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:53 pm

Sick - love your build. I need a oil return pump for my new build , do you think your setup would work at 6500 -7000 rpm.
Thank you.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

Sick6Turbo
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #4 by Sick6Turbo » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:07 pm

pmuller9: It could be. Although I have seen it with all the cams I've tried, the Crower only pulled to 5200 after the turbo change to the Gt45. It was a brick wall 5000 before that. I haven't checked back pressure with the 277 and the gt45, I think it's higher than with the Crower, It sounds mean again and spools quicker.

Blowing through the converter with this combo and the v6 combo t-bird all were brick walls. Kind of nice showing peak hp rpm. Perhaps the converter is playing a part as well. Will know more when the Pro Edge is re-stalled and back in. When the converter was cool the other day, it pulled to 5600 in first. Drove around to cool off a bit and tried again, had a hard time getting to 5600.

Glad to be here, I enjoy your posts and many others here that really know their stuff. :beer:

I also wanted to add, even though the engine and trans are dirty etc.., I use extreme care keeping the internals and gasket surfaces clean when working on the truck. If I decide to stay with this project, it will eventually look pretty. :nod:
Last edited by Sick6Turbo on Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

Sick6Turbo
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Posts: 78
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Location: Almond, Wi.

Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #5 by Sick6Turbo » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:24 pm

drag-200stang wrote:Sick - love your build. I need a oil return pump for my new build , do you think your setup would work at 6500 -7000 rpm.
Thank you.


Thanks, love yours too!

Not sure if the diaphragm in the fuel pump would take the rpm's for long or hold up. I do run a .0625 restrictor due to a previous set up, and left it in without issue so far. I think the reservoir/plumbing would be ok. Been keeping an eye on one of these if I run into trouble: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NewBlack-Perfor ... SwkZhWRqSg
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

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bubba22349
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #6 by bubba22349 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:16 pm

:banana: Slick6Turbo, that's a really excellent write up on your trucks turbo build up! : :thumbup: I have always loved the sleepers too theirs nothing like beating somebody in their high dollar car or truck with one! :beer:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

pmuller9
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #7 by pmuller9 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 5:09 pm

I really like the layout with the rear mounted turbo.
The engine compartment looks uncluttered with lots of room to work.

I went over your very well done write up a second time including your comparison between cams versus rpm.
I have a turbo 300 project coming up so I have an interest in your results.

One of the areas of concern is the exhaust manifold.
The log manifold sees exhaust pulses running the full length of the log every 120 degrees of crank rotation.
The exhaust valve opens somewhere around 70 degrees before BDC and the blowdown portion of the exhaust cycle begins
and continues till pressure equalization just after BDC. The rest of the cycle is dedicated to pumping the remaining exhaust gas out of the cylinder.

The exhaust valve of the next cylinder in the firing order opens 120 degrees after the previous sending a pulse from the opposite end of the log.
This pressure pulse reaches the previous cylinder while its exhaust valve is still open, early in the pumping cycle which raises cylinder pressure.
This increases pumping losses and more importantly it will take a lot higher rpm before intake port reversion is overcome.
In any case it delays the start of cylinder fill when the intake valve opens at all rpms.
Just as a side note:Here the piston is always under compression and does not get hammered at the top of the exhaust stroke. One of the reasons they survive.

The piston reaches max velocity at 74.3 degrees ATDC so any delay in charge motion after the intake valve opens decreases the time for the piston to transfer its kinetic energy to the incoming charge which lowers port velocity decreasing cylinder fill ABDC.
The intake duration is effectively shortened at both opening and closing and as the duration is increased there are diminishing returns.

The EFI exhaust manifolds isolate the back three cylinders from the front three. Now there are exhaust pulses every 240 degrees of crank rotation in each manifold instead of 120.
Much less negative interaction between cylinders
Secondly exhaust manifold runners collect in parallel like a tube header collector and can actually create a scavenging pulse behind each for the benefit of the next.

As you can tell I recommend putting the EFI exhaust manifolds back on.
Run about 18" of pipe beyond the flanges before collecting the two pipes with a "Y".

You should see the rpm "Brick Wall" change to a easier roll off at a higher rpm with a lot more power through out the power band.

sthorvictor
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #8 by sthorvictor » Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:53 pm

subscribing to this thread as well, awesome read and info at fte, and loads of info here and tons of good guys to chat with.
Best of luck,

Seth

turbocharged maf 300 f150

Sick6Turbo
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #9 by Sick6Turbo » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:17 pm

Thanks guys!

pmuller9: The brick wall is from blowing through the converter. There is just enough left in this converter when cool(not been boosted), that is stalls to 4700 and pulls great leveling off slowly such as 5600 rpm described earlier. After is has been boosted once and the fluid is warmed up, it shoots to 5200 and stays there. You really have to actually ride in a turbo car that's blowing through the converter to get a good grasp of whats going on. Andre at Edge Converters confirmed that it can limit rpm. The other v6 was the same way, until the new converter.

I have put thought in the exhaust pulses, and also considered different cam profiles catering to the 120* firing. You cam and ignition lead a 5hp racing Briggs and Stratton differently than a multiple cylinder engine as well. Low timing helps pulling out of the corners toward the checkered flag on those...anyway... The whole exhaust system is under pressure fluctuating 5psi pressure with pulses on my best gauge. Depending on flow, anything with a Y in it and more time could cause reversion up the other pipe, not good. The log on the other hand, is like a balloon with six straws in it. Don't matter which straw is blowing or when, its flowing out the hole. The efi mani's have terrible bends in them detrimental to flow and reversion could occur there too.

The bottom line: I have see horrible turbo plumbing to the turbo, only to be done proper later with zero benefit. Real world testing is the only way. My truck spools great with excellent back pressures, no reason to change things. I do understand where you are coming from in theory however. The efi mani's could work better, headers with proper heat treatment could work better...Their is a guy selling 1000hp mod motor turbo kits, he will sell you his headers or you can use your manifolds. He said dyno testing showed no difference in power.

Agreed, turbo boost keeps pressure in the cylinder and on the piston....keeping the rod alive. Low timing and proper AFR's save pistons and head gaskets.
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

pmuller9
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #10 by pmuller9 » Thu Dec 24, 2015 12:17 am

Sick6

Thanks for the more detailed explanation of the converter problem.
Had a similar problem with a nitrous car. Car was fine on motor running 9.10 ets.
The owner wanted 8s so on went the nitrous, engine went to 7200 rpm and stayed there through 2nd and 3rd gear. Ran an 8.8 1/4 mile but it was strange.

A few years back was involved with 10.5" tire outlaw class as well as NHRA top sportsman. Twin 88s on 430 cid SBF over 2000 hp
I was recording both manifold and exhaust pressure with Racepak sensors. Average manifold and exhaust pressures were the same, 1:1 ratio.
With pressure sensors I could see exhaust pressure at the collector going down to zero and up to twice the average pressure.
This was a good indication that pressure and scavenging pulses existed along with good isolation between cylinders.
That was with large tube equal length primary pipes to the turbine flange.

The advice I got from those racing the 300 recommended the efi exhaust.
With 18" of pipe after the manifold flanges before the two are collected there is enough velocity and air mass in each pipe to prevent reversion.
The pulses coming out of one pipe is 180 degrees out of phase with the other which creates scavenging for both as they meet and travel down the single pipe.
The consensus here is that a full length header is worth more when open but loses its advantage over the EFI with back pressure from an exhaust system.

I wasn't thinking about improving the spooling as much as finding you more horsepower.

I appreciate your input

Sick6Turbo
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #11 by Sick6Turbo » Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:14 am

Good stuff pmuller9.

I think you are correct, there would be enough velocity to prevent reversion with the Y's. Also, the bends may not be too detrimental to flow but do lose heat as seen in dyno videos, bends glow cherry red first. I have been considering coming out of the h.d. mani laterally rather than down improving flow and heat retention, along with other bends in the feed pipe that are no long needed because of cross member removal. I may do all these things and yield no noticeable improvement!

There have been guys that tried headers with rear mounts, and put the manifolds right back on. On the other hand, there is also a guy that used headers and gradually stepped down pipe size on the way back to the turbos and claimed there was no difference in e.t. or spool from front mount. This throws a wrench into velocity vs. flow debate, and may be the best of both worlds. I have considered coming out of the mani with 3" and stepping it down gradually to 2.5" at the turbo. My thought is the hot expanded gasses aren't forced into a 2.5" pipe so soon and the heat is carried farther downstream. The pipe size shrinks along with the gasses keeping velocity stable with less restriction.

On that note, perhaps the log works best with the 13+ foot long 2.5" "header" on my truck. Maybe the efi mani's would not work any better with the long 2.5" pipe, but could work better than the log/2.5" straight combo if stepped down more gradually on the way to the turbo??? Trying it is likely the only way tell.

A big monkey wrench in the gears is this: Drove the truck with a friend taking video of the back pressure gauge for safety. Boosted the truck, drove a mile to cool tranny, turned around and boosted the truck from a 20mph roll similar to the other videos. The truck pulled harder than it even has, getting squirrelly but hooking enough to pull hard. Finished up and parked the truck. Went to take my brother for a ride a few days later and no boost. The 2.5" exhaust pipe had shrunk and pulled out of the slip coupler that is about 2/3 the way back. Made some adjustments and welded it solid. The truck never pulled that hard again. Brings a whole new element to turbocharging with a possible adjustable exhaust venturi in the mix!

Thank you for the idea's, and effort. I will experiment down the road and may wind up with efi mani's...my main focus now is to settle in on a cam and turbo combo so further testing can be apples to apples.

Have a Merry Christmas!
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

gassercoupe
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #12 by gassercoupe » Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:25 am

Using the stock fuel pump as an oil pump for the turbo is just inspired thinking.
I'm really digging the heck out of your truck.

Congrats, great build.

Sick6Turbo
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #13 by Sick6Turbo » Thu Dec 24, 2015 1:04 pm

Thanks gassercoupe!

I've worked on such an assortment of things for so many years, i'm drawn towards mechanical reliability and simple. If points ignition was accurate, that's what would be in the truck :nod:

I have also developed a system I call "the cure" for controlling the power valve in the carburetor externally to control fueling when boosted. It is similar to the "crutch", but is fully mechanical...no wires or motor to fail and has worked flawlessly for over 2 years on another vehicle, and flawless on mine. Adjustable and costs about $20 depending on what's available on ebay.

I would like to talk to Brent Davis(created the crutch) about "the cure" prior to releasing details out of respect as he is selling his crutch systems for around $400+.

I can tell you that the carb can be rebuilt to stock using a standard rebuild kit and power valve. Modify one circuit to channel control somewhere on the outside of the carburetor and plug the original power valve hole in the base plate or body. More details soon, will start a thread here when ready.
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

Sick6Turbo
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Location: Almond, Wi.

Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #14 by Sick6Turbo » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:41 pm

I have conversed with Brent Davis, he gave me the green light on posting about the Cure.
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

Sick6Turbo
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Location: Almond, Wi.

Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #15 by Sick6Turbo » Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:51 am

Well, it's time to say goodbye. I have decided to take a break from forums.
Good luck with all your builds and take care.
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

pmuller9
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #16 by pmuller9 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:24 pm

Sick6Turbo wrote:Well, it's time to say goodbye. I have decided to take a break from forums.
Good luck with all your builds and take care.

Dale
I'm really sorry to see you go
I appreciated you taking the time to share your projects and I learned a lot from them.
You really have some excellent "out of the box thinking" solutions.
Please reconsider posting here as you make progress.

Sincerely
Paul

sthorvictor
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #17 by sthorvictor » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:24 pm

late to the goodbye here however, hope to chat with you again sometime dale, as well. i will pm you with what i think of the cam and specs you suggested awhile back for a custom grind. i put an order in with lunati should be a few weeks away.
thanks
Best of luck,

Seth

turbocharged maf 300 f150

Sick6Turbo
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #18 by Sick6Turbo » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:14 pm

Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

pmuller9
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Location: Columbus, Indiana

Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #19 by pmuller9 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:25 pm

I like it.
I may copy it with your permission.
Thanks

deere114
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #20 by deere114 » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:30 am

I see the valves on the table in the back ground and the manly box. Some more head work before the track opens?

Sick6Turbo
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #21 by Sick6Turbo » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:11 pm

pmuller9: Go for it! Not sure if it's enough area for e85, will try it and if not will stay on gas(or mixture) and next year will expand to cover all the plenum area like some of the Clifford's I've seen on the net.

deere114: :D
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

Twinturbor
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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #22 by Twinturbor » Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:31 pm

Has anyone dynoed their turbo 300's ? Mine is getting close and I'm going to be running 15 to 20psi and I was wondering roughly what people wreaking at what boost level

Sick6Turbo
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Location: Almond, Wi.

Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #23 by Sick6Turbo » Wed Jul 06, 2016 4:15 pm

Wallace Racing track calculator put the Sleeper at 424 hp with the Crower 284, t72 turbo, 20 psi, loose converter for the 1/8 mile e.t. of 7.86@87mph and 3920 lbs. I like the track calculator because of cost, and it's true to the combo. The quarter mile times showed less power, which makes sense with a loose converter and school bus aerodynamics. I would have liked to engine dyno it however.

Estimations and calculations only, but since that run I had went to a LOOSE clutch fan (20hp vs direct?), bigger ebay gt45 turbo (5-10hp less backpressure), straightened the driveshaft angle, and ran more pressure in the rear tires. Estimating output to be 450hp.

Installed the Lunati 277 cam and wasn't real impressed initially with 2nd gear testing, as the extra power was absorbed as heat, blowing through the converter worse. Warmed up the engine for 10 minutes another day so the converter was cool, and let her eat in 1st. I literally said HOLY $)(!+. Around 16-17 psi (was 20psi with Crower) and for the first time the 300 was just toying with the truck. It felt like you've been sliding 20 pound boxes across a table all day and someone handed you and empty one. Even when the turbo was cool at 14psi it was impressive. Guestimate output 475hp. Optimistic calculations show that at 24psi it could be 526hp.

Certainly with moving the turbo to the front, porting the head with appropriate sized larger valves, and building an "over the top" header with at least 15" long 1 5/8" primaries collecting at a twin scroll ebay gt45 would move the hp up a healthy notch as well. I don't think a 550-600hp factory headed turbo 300 is out of the realm of possibilities, if one has the cash and skills. Just remember to watch ignition timing and fuel octane with a better head and bigger efficient cams, as the cylinder pressure is higher with less boost.

I was well on my way to building a screaming 240 to do just that, 30 psi with a Borg Warner S366. Between the funds, and the 240 not fitting into the 38 Ford(my family dream car) due to wishbone steering joint location, I decided to abort the mission. Most importantly I need to spent more time with my 11 year old son who is not interested in mechanics.(yet!) I will certainly miss the simple and rugged inliners.

It's always been about the 38 Ford for me, a huge project always passed up by something quicker and easier to build. I thought the Sleeper would scratch that itch being my all time favorite truck, but it hasn't. At this point I am looking at building a budget Windsor for the 38 as time and funds allow. It will fit very well with the dependable c6. It may just find it's way into the Sleeper until the 38 is ready.
Dale
79 F-100 turbocharged 300 rear mount 20 psi
Stock EFI bottom end, mild port carb head
12.44@106 1/4 mile in 2015

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Re: 79 F-100 Turbo 300-6 Sleeper

Post #24 by 66Sprint6 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:45 am

Love it...big power from a big six and a big turbo, cant beat it! Runnin 7.8's in a classic truck would be a dream and the sound of the turbo spooling is awesome as well! Good job!

Matt
"ITS A SIX!!!!!"
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