turbo 200 build

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RichCreations
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #51 by RichCreations » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:07 pm

67Straightsix wrote:I wasn't planning on posting until the engine was actually running, but I ran into a snafu. I've come to the conclusion that this is probably the most odd-ball engine that the Holley system has ever been used on. I found a local Holley tech guy to help me set up the parameters so I thought this would go somewhat smoothly - and it did, up until we started checking injector firing sequence - there was no signal to the injectors. We traced it to the cam sensor which has no signal. Spent all day trouble-shooting (checked wiring and replaced the sensor) and still no signal. I'm using 2002 mustang 3.8 two pin sensor which doesn't seem to be compatible with the Holley. I think I should have probably went with a three pin. Information on the Ford cam sensor is scarce. I'm suspecting that the voltage requirements for the Ford and Holley are different - does anyone know what voltage the Ford operates on? Other than that, things are coming along - slowly...


a 2 wire sensor is likely a VR sensor, vs a 3 wire hall sensor... VR sensors put out a very low voltage at low RPMs and a higher voltage as RPMs increase... You might try a VR conditioner between the sensor and the ECU like the JBPerf one...

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #52 by 67Straightsix » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:14 pm

pmuller9 wrote:The 2 wire cam position sensor is a magnetic reluctor sensor and puts out a pulse as the reluctor swings past the coil.
Polarity is important. The ECU is looking for a zero crossing as the pulse goes from positive to negative.


From what I've been reading ,it did not sound like polarity was important. The magnet would get a pulse either way. I did however switch the wires on the cam sensor, no difference. Looking at the data log the crank sensor shows pulses, but the cams graph is a straight line. The ecu and cam sync are not communicating with each other. It seems like it should show something , which is a little worrying. If this can't be sorted out this week I'll switch to a 95 explorer hall effects sensor. From what I read on the Holley forms it looks like that has fewer problems. Thanks for the input.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #53 by xctasy » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:46 pm

Most likely inductance. Check Mikes1157


There are attachments which I only put on FEP because it was impossible to link them here in the past...

"http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread.php?155706-The-path-less-traveled-1978-Turbo-I6-Futura-(The-Gila-Monster)/page20"

xctasy wrote:Aussies have no problems if its a stock 1993 onwards system, even though the sensor itself is very hard to set up properly. Ford OZ actually totally backed out for two whole years from EECV and EDIS6 because dust, heat, coil pack failure and the inability to tune it so LPG instillations taht didn't go through spark plugs like a Russian Pogom. Its a beeatch if the primary battery voltages drop below 12.9 volts, and if your doing somethng just a little different. Like a big cam, propane or turbo.

But a clever Aussie just cut and shuts the Over Head Cam AU 4 liter system into any old overhead valve X-flow, and it works. But the VR relector has to be set up right. It may work even if you put the sensor the wrong way around, but to set it up proprly is actually quite hard. I remember Ralph Sarich, the Aussie Orbital Engine and fine atomisation EFI injector inventor, made an even cylinder swash plate engine run, even though it was technically impoosiable to do so. He said " If someone had told me that it wouldn't work unless I had an oldd number of cylinders, I probabyl wouldn't have gotten it to go at all...."

Pages 4, 5 and 6. This boy 81foxdwagon is no yella belly backyarder, but he and Wagon on FSP forum's are the only two Aussies who have army proof of any EDI6 converted ohv X-flow ever running. All because the prox sensor is such a nasty thing to set properly.KLR250's advice is bang on.81foxdwagon's respose was to just bang the Aussie Bosch 62 series Duraspark back on, and forget the EDIS6.....


There's more guys with Nissan/Holden in line six RB20, 25, 26 and 30's with Ford EDIS6 than X-flows, and that's a fact.
http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5473-the-yellow-turbo-wagon/page-4
http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5473-the-yellow-turbo-wagon/page-5
http://www.xfalcon.com/forums/index.php?/topic/5473-the-yellow-turbo-wagon/page-6




81foxdwagon had it on the wrong way, with the 1993 EF Falcon part number facing outwards, whereas in stock form, there is a locating sleeve on one of the tabs. He didnt reverse polarity or anything. Its this aspect that is so hard.

From personal experience, Proximity Sensors are just a total Cluster *&%^$. I'm no longer scared of them, but they aren't an easy thing to master. See KLR250's Kiwi forum posts.The composition of the reluctor wheel is critical, and the conditioning circuit is too.


I spent a few hours working through Fords VR speedosesnor, its the same, its not a pure digital system, its a hybrid, so when you hook it into something like my Rallye Route Postion Survey master (which is digiital) it won't increment properly.

http://oldschool.co.nz/2011/forum/index.php?/topic/30571-klr250-the-build/


"This also includes a VR conditioning circuit to condition the signal from the ford EDIS VR sensor. The sensor has to sit around 1mm from the teeth, and the air gap is critical. The circuit conditions the signal and converts it from a sinewave to a 5V square wave so megasquirt can process it, heres the circuit diagram as shown in the MSnSextra manual"


Variable Reluctors created an AC current. Digitial sensors are like tone rings on ABS, and make a square wave form. Some of the data logging aspects get messed up with neagative voltages. I've lost 8 weeks of pay dealing with proxity sensors from 2002 till last month. 13 years of utter crap.

Data loggers and ECM's don't deal well with square wave forms that have negative voltages at the bottom. Fords system is the exception, its a bit of both.

The Sensors that work are SMP (Standard Motor Products) PC51 and PC74. There needs to be shielded wire to cut electrical interference from messing up the signal, so what they call inductance doesn't screw your Varaiable Relector signal over....


But you'll get it sorted.

I use Moates J3 ports to do my turbo engines. I don't saw of the log or anything like what you do, and becasue of the injetor issues and packaging, I don't use traditional port EFI the way you do. I use speed density, and the Aussie 4.1 sensor.

.
From http://eectuning.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12137
One of the 158 + posts here "http://eectuning.org/forums/viewforum.php?f=2" might cover it...



Since I've destroyed more prox sensors than you've had hot dinners....contact me and I'll see if a trusted source can give me permission to send you some details.

The four Files are
PC-ED 1 (4.7 MB) <---- probably the one you need.
PC-ED 3 ( 109.7kb)
PC-ED 4 ( 417.2kb)
PC-ED 6 ( 594.8 kb)



Find a secure email and I'll send it if I can get permission.

I'm not sure it will help because"It means making a lot of new and old tech work harmoniously...a lot of very "different" sensors give similar signals, and a lot of "similar" sensors give very different signals"

67Straightsix wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:The 2 wire cam position sensor is a magnetic reluctor sensor and puts out a pulse as the reluctor swings past the coil.
Polarity is important. The ECU is looking for a zero crossing as the pulse goes from positive to negative.


From what I've been reading ,it did not sound like polarity was important. The magnet would get a pulse either way. I did however switch the wires on the cam sensor, no difference. Looking at the data log the crank sensor shows pulses, but the cams graph is a straight line. The ecu and cam sync are not communicating with each other. It seems like it should show something , which is a little worrying. If this can't be sorted out this week I'll switch to a 95 explorer hall effects sensor. From what I read on the Holley forms it looks like that has fewer problems. Thanks for the input.



My technical assitant is a 45 year veteren of factory prox sensors. He's gotten me out of the stuck so many times...Often, the sensor has a need to be loaded by a pullup resister to generate a square wave or variable relctance. Fords sensors are designed from very smart suppliers pricing the needs of Fords techncians, and they are not all the same, and vary so much by year. Explorer 96 to 97, total change. As long as it works, and they can get Job No 1 to the public, it doesn't matter what part they use as long as it meets the requirements for the model run and can be traced back to the supply for the EVTS manual; even a mid year spec change requiring a whole new batch code of EEC doesn't worry Ford as long as the lines of code from the CPU/ECM can recognise it.


Ben had a Ford Zetk powered Volvo Amazon 122S, and is a ship technician, so he's pretty clued up.

So you'll have to check Greywolfs EECV post in Four Eyed Pride. He's been a FSP member for a long time.

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/member.php?6939-Greywolf

FEP Senior Member Greywolf from Richmond, ME. He's out to sea servicing our (ooppps, your) coastlines at the moment, but he set me up with some EECV stuff, but its too huge to post



http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... -MPG-meter
Greywolf wrote:It's available. I do electrical and electronics (shipboard for a living, Ford for a hobby, household for sanity) so we should probably find a time to have a more detailed discussion.

My focus, like yours, has been EEC-V control of non-EEC-V engines, although (to make the Focus part a pun) I gave up a little and moved over to tweaking of pre-existing EEC-V (for example, the Focus-in-a-Volvo-Amazon project). It means making a lot of new and old tech work harmoniously...a lot of very "different" sensors give similar signals, and a lot of "similar" sensors give very different signals.

I have a lot of literature and test equipment that gets used for tweaking--we should definitely chat. The items you seek may be in a bin somewhere in the piles of boxes stuffed in the "future master bedroom".
Last edited by xctasy on Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:34 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

pmuller9
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #54 by pmuller9 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:13 pm

67Straightsix wrote: From what I've been reading ,it did not sound like polarity was important. The magnet would get a pulse either way. I did however switch the wires on the cam sensor, no difference. Looking at the data log the crank sensor shows pulses, but the cams graph is a straight line. The ecu and cam sync are not communicating with each other. It seems like it should show something , which is a little worrying. If this can't be sorted out this week I'll switch to a 95 explorer hall effects sensor. From what I read on the Holley forms it looks like that has fewer problems. Thanks for the input.

Have you checked the cam sensor coil resistance with an Ohm Meter?
I believe it should read several hundred ohms.
I would also check continuity from the cam sensor plug all the back to pins A22 and A14 on the main harness that plugs into the ECU.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #55 by xctasy » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:04 pm

I'm very impressed at your work. Two notes.


1. The SMP P51 sensor can be replaced with another, but generates a wave with speed. Its drops off at low speed. Typical Ford stuff. Engine has to be spinning above curcb idel to make it start to generte a reliable pulse.

62-2 wheel, yes? Its not stainless steel, is it?

Where is the sensor?


Inductance where there is crossover with another voltage, will take the signal out.


On my engines, I use an industrial eletric motor to get them at base curb idle speed, not anything else. Cranking range for a Ford engine is around 200-250 rpm The engine needs to turn faster than 70rpm to catch and start. 850 rpm is a better speed to test pulses.




2. On your 1/4" plate adaptor.

You can clock the starter and trans 6 degrees onwards and have the transmission on a pitch to clear the bellhousing lower buttress flange.

Did that on my AOD to Aussie X-flow Falcon six, much to xflowecono's absolute horror. Yes if all is level, the flange hits the starter, but you can clock the trans around a bit to clear it, or grind it. ON AOD to 429 and FE 427 swaps, sometimes 12.5 degrees pitch is generated. 6 degrees is nothing.

Normal camber of a road is 3%, a little side list on a T5 or AOD isn't going to hurt anything as the gearlever comes through where it should, and your cross member fits. Camaros have had offset 10 degree T5 for years. A little General Motors Genetic Enginnering is fine if it avoids a problem.

Nine times out of ten, you have to scratch build your crossmember anyway.

Its a little like redrilling the blank FE rocker arm to get the grub screw in the right spot for an I6. If you find yourself pushing material frienships, then clock something, or change it. Or mill it on an angle. Don't think at 90 degrees all the time. You can't screw up by deciding to avoid a problem.

If Ford Argentina decided to add a little 5 degree lean in one direction to clear the spring towers of its triple carb six, and Ford Australia leaned it the other direction 5 degrees to clear the Dana 44 diff and trandfer case on the 4x4 Falcon Utility, its quite okay to twist a trans the same amount. Even up to F car levels of tilt.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

67Straightsix
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #56 by 67Straightsix » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:25 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Have you checked the cam sensor coil resistance with an Ohm Meter?
I believe it should read several hundred ohms.
I would also check continuity from the cam sensor plug all the back to pins A22 and A14 on the main harness that plugs into the ECU.


I've tried two sensors - the ohms read 0.741. Checked continuity on the pins several times - always have continuity. My wires are shielded and routed separate from everything else. I'm starting to believe the sensor is not generating enough voltage for the ECU to read.

ectasy, your well of information never ceases to amaze! I'm starting to get a good grasp on how the sensors work - and how to trouble-shoot. To answer your questions: I should clarify what I've done for the cam position sensor - I modified a mustang 3.8 cam sensor/oil pump drive to work on the I6 (it's mounted in the stock distributor location). For the crank sensor, Holley recommends a 60-2 crank trigger wheel - no it is not stainless :lol: (always cover the obvious) Tomorrow the guy that's helping me is going to talk with Holley directly to see if they can help trouble-shoot this problem. I still think I'm going to end up going to a hall effects sensor - shouldn't be to difficult, just have to change the pick-up and the sensor.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #57 by xctasy » Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:59 pm

At a personal level, I dislike VR.

Reason 1. Ford does it all the time with everything...

xctasy wrote:What a very strange, but very cool system.. It's just the 8000 plips per mile, early EECIV compatibale 8 pulse per revolution VRS system, with a variable voltage sqaure wave form from 20 mph onwards. It does have some funny features on sub 20 mph voltage polling, technically able to poll back down to 7 mph in some circumstances.

Certain versions of the EEC III, EEC IV and most EEC V's require an 8000 pulse per mile vehicle speed sensor signal from the PSOM (speedo module), which is just like all other EEC-IV equipped vehicles

Other later EEC V applications use a 16000 or 40000 pulse per mile VSS signal.



I'm told that some of the CFI or Speed Density AOD Fox varaints poll down to 7 mph, and allow idle speed conditioning.



Sadly, the periodic zero mph to 19.9 mph null readings won't do what I need it to do, as like some ABS circuits, it has no reliable squarewave below 20 mph to log distance travelled. Its circumstantial, and as such, presents as aa Major Bummmer to me.....

I could probably use a prescaler to create a digital square wave form from an SN95 hub, but I can get another Proximity sensor tommorrow in the post for 95 US.


I jacked up my car, and ran the standard Hertz, A/C Voltage and Ohms resistance checks from zero to 62 mph, with my metric speedo registering in KM/H. Note that there is no voltage going up to 32 km/h or 20 mph, but once invoked, the voltage can be recorded right donw to zero, so there is an interesting voltage speed, Hertz resolution

0 km/h, 0 mph 0 Hz, zero volts AC
12 km/h, 7.4 mph, but 0.016 volts AC on over run
See picture
Image
20 km/h, 12.4 mph 0 Hz, zero volts AC
30 km/h, 18.6 mph 0 Hz, zero volts AC, but 0.033 volts AC on overun
See picture
Image
32 km/h, 19.9 mph 0 Hz, 0.00 volts AC
32.2 km/h, 20.0 mph, 0 Hz, 0.019 volts AC
40 km/h, 24.9 mph 0.056 volts AC
50 km/h, 31.1 mph, 0.083 volts AC
60 km/h, 37.3 mph 102 Hz, 0.109 volts AC
70 km/h, 43.5 mph, 0.149 volts AC
80 km/h, 49.7 mph 0.186 volts AC
88 km/h, 54.7 mph 125 Hz, 0.223 volts AC
See picture
Image
100 km/h 62.1 mph, 0.273 volts AC
See picture
Image


The square wave form kicks in after 19.9 mph on the upward rise, with zero Hertz cycles per second on my Cat IV multimetervoltage and the voltage increasing steadily from 20 mph on upwards.

The on the decilne after 20 mph, it records right down to 7 mph, assumably for the one Speed Density AOD car that needed idle speed control...



2. Nissan and Toyota use it. My old Road Roughness Holden wouldn't control cruise below 40 km/h, as it used on too. I don't like having to drive at 40 km/h like I do in my Nissan to use the attesa VSS to generate a distance recording. So they are VR. So are ABS cut outs. Add a prescaler to boost them, and they still fall short. Ford, GM and Nissan and Toyota use them because its fit for purpose. I like to missuse a sensor and mine it for data, so I'm a gready SOB who will never be happy with the modern way of doing sensor tech.Greedy of Gain, Guilty As Charged...

MSD or Holleys choice of HE is good.


I like optical pickup to, but it gives other problems. I've used it in a commercial Road Roughness measurement environment, and you can bet its fun, accurate, and safe, The VR and HE. Just depends. So feed the machine what it wants, dude, and enjoy making it truly Howitzer Proof like any built down to a price Ford should be.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #58 by pmuller9 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:45 pm

If going to a Hall Effect is the solution that will be good to know.
Thanks

67Straightsix
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #59 by 67Straightsix » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:23 pm

Have not been able to work on the engine for over a week, but I did get the right cam sync parts. Went to the pick and pull, and found a '97 mustang 3.8 - got the three wire connector, and sensor. Yesterday installed the parts, checked ignition, and injector timing - turned the key... (long pause for dramatic effect)... engine roared to life!!! The header design gives the engine a deep growl - which of course the muffler and turbo will change, but it was cool to hear! So happy/relieved it actually worked! - :beer: Once you get the right components for the Holley EFI, it's incredibly easy to use. I'm using a turbo 302 fuel map so I still have a lot of fine tuning to do. Now for the bad news - the oil pressure is low, so have to trouble shoot that - I'm thinking it could be a spacer I put in between the block and oil pump, guess I'll start there.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #60 by drag-200stang » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:48 pm

:thumbup: What did you have to do to get the 3.8 to fit? I believe they say to set the program to hall effect and falling edge is best? Also what cam shaft are you using?
One thing I would like to caution you on is bad spark timing under boost will destroy things, you will make good power and think everything is fine...Just make sure that noise is not false triggering spark and that it is what you are commanding it to be before boosting it.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #61 by 67Straightsix » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:42 pm

drag-200stang wrote::thumbup: What did you have to do to get the 3.8 to fit? I believe they say to set the program to hall effect and falling edge is best? Also what cam shaft are you using?
One thing I would like to caution you on is bad spark timing under boost will destroy things, you will make good power and think everything is fine...Just make sure that noise is not false triggering spark and that it is what you are commanding it to be before boosting it.


The shaft on the 3.8 is longer than our inlines. I cut the synchronizer of the top of the shaft and bored a hole through the center of the synchronizer. Then I cut the shaft down to the correct size and tapped a 1/4' hole in the synchronizer end. The cam sensor body is a direct slip-on into the block. You need to change the cam gear the 3.8 is reverse rotation to the inline six.
Image
This pic is not the sensor I used, it's the magnetic sensor - but I did the same modifications to both the magnetic and hall effect sensors.
Holley recommends falling edge
I'm using Clay Smith Cams - custom turbo grind.
Thanks for the warning, I plan to do a lot of tuning before the turbo goes on.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #62 by drag-200stang » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:24 pm

:thumbup: Nice job, Thanks for the info.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

67Straightsix
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #63 by 67Straightsix » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:34 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I1eOpdTcEg&feature=youtu.be
It's been a long week - tore the engine down, rechecked everything and put it back together. Ran a drill on the oil pump, got good oil pressure - and re-test started it (had 60psi). In this video the engine is running very rich, but you get an idea how it sounds with open header and and no turbo. I'll post again when I get it all sorted with a muffler on. Feeling extremely relieved there were no serious problems - :D

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #64 by pikesan » Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:15 pm

Sounds awesome man!!
See all my cars here: Pikesan's Garage What's in your garage?

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #65 by 67Straightsix » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:48 pm

We got the engine as tuned as we can get on the engine stand. Runs well. Put the engine in the car and got the computer wired in- working on hooking up the turbo and all the rest of the wiring. I've neglected the car getting the engine running so now we're concentrating on getting the car back together. Here's some pictures showing the turbo's plumbing situation - it's very tight, but it all fits!
Image
Image
Image

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #66 by gus91326 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:01 pm

That is fantastic!
What oil pump are you using to get 60 psi? I get 40 cold startup that settles to 20 at idle when warm.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #67 by drag-200stang » Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:58 pm

Very nice, :beer:
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #68 by pmuller9 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:49 pm

Great looking fabrication and packaging job!!
Will you coat the header pipes later?

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #69 by 67Straightsix » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:42 am

gus91326 wrote:What oil pump are you using to get 60 psi? .

I'm using a melding pump. The oil pressure will probably be a little lower once the engine has some miles on it.

pmuller9 wrote:Will you coat the header pipes later?

I was planning on coating them, but now that the engine is in the car, I don't really want to take it out to coat them. I'll run it and see how hot the intake gets... If I need to, I'll pull it and coat them this winter.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #70 by bubba22349 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:50 am

:beer: Wow it's sure looks great setting in there! :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #71 by xctasy » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:03 am

Well done.


This was kind of where I thought Mike1157 might go to back in the early days before Aussie X flow heads, and the
mike1157 wrote:1978 Ford Fairmont Futura project: "The Gila Monster" Xflow'd Megasquirted, MPFI'd, DIS, T/C'd, A2WI/C'd 250, 4R70W shifted, and 8.8, 3.55 gear rearended.


I've had a lot of fun with all my Cross flows, they always make dependable power with lovely low end torque.

The later Cross flows like mike1157's, , over 9 years from 1976 to 1985, they ratcheted the port area down, but increased / raised the valve area. In 1985, 1.4 sq inches of port area at the gasket, to 2.65 sq inches of valve with a 1.84 diameter intake. A port just 52.5% of the valve area.

Image

Iron XC/TE head top (A port 82% of the valve area) 121 hp, despite bigger 1.575" diameter 40 mm ports

HF2 XE alloy head below ( A port 59% of the valve area ). 141 hp, despite smaller 1.300" 33 mm ports

In 1979, the all iron headed XD/TF's got a Blue 3.3/4.1 block, and a Black head with 1.378" 35 mm intake ports, re worked to give an extra 2.5 hp. The XD engine was heaps more ecconomical than the XC. The port area at the gasket face was now down to 1.49 sq inches, for that same 2.38 sq in area valves. A port just 63% of the valve area.

In 1976, the XC/TE 3.3/4.1 had a Blue block, and Blue head with 1.575" diameter 40 mm intake ports, it was 1.95 sq in at the gasket face with a 2.38 sq inches of 1.74" diameter valve. A port 82% of the valve area.

The all mighty XY/XA/ XB 250 2V's, same deal, although they seams to be a lot harder to take a slog around the traffic, they lost a lot of air speed and always end up pulling a lot more more revs to make torque, becasue of huge, 2.13 sq in intake ports, the same area as the 1.65" diameter valves. A port 100% of the valve. The torque grew only past 2200 rpm, 600 rpm higher than the 1v 250, and that was with very good headers and a really mild 256 degree cam

By way of reference, the renown raged low end torque Boss 302 and Cleveland 4V port to valve head area. I think one port was 2.7 sq inches at the gasket face for a 3.7 sq inch 2.19" diameter intake, or a 4.0 sq in 2.25" diameter intake. A port 67 to 73% of the valve area. The heads always had a torque hump at 2800 rpm, then they'd go crazy with power gain. "505" 300 degree and K code 310 degree cams made this thing take off at 28 and make torque at 3500 rpm.


Guys have been cutting off the log head for years, and finding that the early 1961-1962 170/200 heads had only 1.125 " diameter ports with 1 sq inch of port serving a 2.13 sq in 1.65" diameter valve head, or a port 47% of the valve area.

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The later log heads, it went up in two saw cuts, 1969, about 67%, and then again to port areas of 2.13 sq in intake in 1976, and those D6 onwards valve heads were now typically 1.75", or 2.40 sq in, or 89%. And that's about where most large log heads have been. Only issue is the port shape is an upside down Catheral shape, with a port floor that is stagnant flow, and the roof that is the wrong shape.

I think that what you've done will simply make a bucket load of tire smoking torque, without the characteristic Cross flow roughness, and without the overly large 2V port to valve area.

I really think that the stiffness of iron, and the heat from the exhaust will have no ill effects on your port fuel injected head, and I instinctivly recon that little 200 will stand up and begg.

Here is what a normal late model log head looks like inside, pretty much the same as yours

a host of Americans, like Fast64Ranchero, JTTurbo, Big Al the Hackmiester, who's tool of choice was the Sawzall.

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Big log was a D8
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Small log like the early ones
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Experi Mental Frontal Log-otmy
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Aussie Motec Hilbourne style EFI runners with top mount injectors at 30 degree draft angle, taken from the 1990 Hot Sixes Street Machine book with the 292 Chevy on the cover.

Image
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #72 by Asa » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:23 pm

I love this build.
Right and Wrong are just words, what matters is what you do

Susie - a work in progress
Clyde - ya mule!

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #73 by 67Straightsix » Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:45 pm

Thanks, everyone, for all the support - it really helps me to stay motivated!
xctasy - I've been following Mike1157's build from the beginning - I'd love to see him get that car all sorted out to it's full potential. I trolled the turbo section of this forum for a long time - think I read every thread on it - my first thought was to use the Australian cross low head, but I was having enough problems getting parts here in the states and didn't want to deal with trying to get parts from Australia. Then I found Does10s and Fast64Ranchero's threads and got inspiration. I didn't realize with the log head there would be so many logistical problems - like xctsy stated "Only issue is the port shape is an upside down Catheral shape, with a port floor that is stagnant flow, and the roof that is the wrong shape." The port placement and shape have been a major pain and caused much compromise on every aspect of this build. Having said this, I'm happy with the results - I've built this motor to get 350-400 horsepower (trying to keep it street-able) but I believe with a little more design development someone could pull more horsepower out of this set-up.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #74 by 67Straightsix » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:49 pm

I'm in the process of building the dash panel - I'm mocking it up in the car now. It's looking flat to me -not happy with the way the bottom edges below the speed-o and tack are looking. I want to keep it simple, but I think it needs some detail. Any ideas?
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #75 by 66Sprint6 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:31 pm

I love fabbing everything I can and especially love seeing other's fab work but in this case...Ive always been a fan of the factory gauge cluster in the 67-68 cars as they come. Add some aftermarket gauges to the factory cluster and you have a winner to me. Keep at it tho, You will make it work!

Matt
"ITS A SIX!!!!!"
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #76 by xctasy » Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:29 am

Yes. Since you've now got space that didn't exist, you have a new freedome to re-establish the old diameters.


The base needs a nacelle


https://translate.google.co.nz/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nacele&prev=search wrote: is a designation normally given to the engine mount in aircraft where it is attached to the wing . The nacelle can be used to attach engines , tanks and weapons to the wings and / or fuselage. In some cases, such as the P-38 Lightning fighter, the cockpit itself can be accommodated in a nacelle. The nacelles have a second function: to reduce the drag generated by the structures of the airplane, and therefore have an aerodynamic design. In wind power structures the nacelle is the structure where the propeller is fixed and normally accommodates the generator. It is the part behind the propeller, at the top of the tower



Your point of difference is using a less obtrusive smaller diameter speedo and rev counter, so your missing the base nacelle which is a "fairing" into the metal dash structure.

Somewhere, you have to look at re-establishing the diameter.

If I were you, I'd put a whole bunch of OBDII check lamps in and around each dial, and use it to trouble shoot from your MS system.

Make them covered by black mylar, and only energised when a fault or check sequence is in process.

Basically similar the the AlfaRomeo Montreal.


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viewtopic.php?f=11&t=70419
Beaus67 wrote:One last thing to add to this thread,
Our custom gauge pod "in the car",

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I love the look of those gauges on that dash

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day

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or night.


Beaus67 wrote:Sorry to be so longwinded with this post but I would be remiss if I didn’t show the modifications needed to the back of the bezel to accept the new gauges. These are the same picture, the highlighted areas had some amount of plastic removed to make way for the gauges. I used a Dremil tool with a fibrous cutting wheel to cut both the plastic and metal parts.
Image

Image
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #77 by 67Straightsix » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:27 pm

Thanks for all the suggestions - I appreciate the ideas (even learned a new word; nacelle). My original plan was to use the Ford dash and use aftermarket gauges, but the factory dash only fits five gauges and I have eight - I want the gauges specifically placed so they can all be seen at a glance - hence a custom made dash panel. At this point my creative abilities are wearing thin - I think I'll just clean it up and install it. Hopefully the steering wheel will distract from the area that bothers me. If it looks crappy, I'll deal with it at a later date - I just want to drive the car! :bang:

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #78 by xctasy » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:41 pm

67Straightsix wrote:Thanks, everyone, for all the support - it really helps me to stay motivated!
xctasy - I've been following Mike1157's build from the beginning - I'd love to see him get that car all sorted out to it's full potential....


12 psi at 50% pwm duty cycle.....https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums ... 3/page-298

madmike1157 wrote:I'm driving home tonight,.and I'm thinkin..."Do I want to dick with the car tonight?" or do I just cave, go home and lounge around....:shrug:
I consider my options:
I'll do it only if:
I left my computer plugged in,..otherwise it'll be dead,...no power to datalog the runs,..

But there it was,...fully charged.

I'll do it, only if "I feel it" when I walk down the stairs to the basement..

I was feelin it.

It's was still high 80's outside, but the humidity seemed tolerable,..Meh,...what the heck,..I can't talk myself out of it now. I'll take it up and down the highway for a couple of full throttle blasts to see if 50% duty cycle makes any difference.

I' didn't start the DL at first,...I wanted to watch the boost gauge and see if the thing actually goes past 7 before I even bother..

I floor it,..7,8,9,10,11 p.s.i. all are flyin by on the gauge......HOLY heck!!! the things working at 50% duty cycle!!!

I start the datalog, and turn around,....floor it,....I see the same stuff again,....I do that a couple of times for good measure, and then drop the duty cycle back down to 45% to see if maybe the thing is hitting the overboost protection and is trying to go higher...

Only now the gauge will only read 8.

So I stop, return the thing back to 50%,...and bring it back home...happier that a clam in pond scum..

Lets see what the good ole datalog shows me...

50% duty cycle shows an almost consistent 11.9 p.s.i.....more than I wanted...so lets look back at the 45% duty cycle area of the chart and see what that says...

9.6-10 p.s.i.....clearly,... that gauge is nothing to trust....

So,...I open TS, and drop the duty cycle back from 50% down to 45%...I'm almost there guys.

86% injector duty cycle,..at a stupidly rich 11:1 AFR,..14.5 degrees of timing, and MAT's that go from ambient before the pull to 99* at the end....

Whoopidoo!!! :banana:
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #79 by drag-200stang » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:51 am

Bump for a super build.
How is it going ?
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #80 by 67Straightsix » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:24 am

drag-200stang wrote:Bump for a super build.
How is it going ?

:thanks:
I have not been able to work on it sense July( Been putting in too many hours at work.)
I'm not going to be able to touch it till November :arg: The car is close to being drive able. still need to finish wiring, make transmission mount and finish exhaust. I really want this thing done by the end of the year. Hopefully my next post will be the car moving under its own power.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #81 by fast64ranchero » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:25 pm

Nice progress, keep plugging away at it and it'll get finished.
63 Ranchero,1965 Mercury Comet Convert V-8, 1978 Fairmont small six, mill'd off intake, 62-1 ET 12.332 @ 123.49 mph (gone)

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #82 by 67Straightsix » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:17 pm

Started working on the car again over the holidays. Had a heck of a time figuring out where to put the wastegate on the header. The places I planned on installing it did not pan out - not enough room. I kept postponing the decision (always a bad idea) mostly because I couldn't access the header to weld in the wastegate flange without pulling the engine :bang: I finally figured out where it would fit and my worst fears were realized - out came the engine. So I took a few steps backwards but It ended up fitting perfectly in the original starter location. Since I have the engine out, I'm taking care of a few other details and will (hopefully) install it for the last time! I am now motivated again to get this car running!

Picture taken from bottom of engine looking up
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From top looking down
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #83 by drag-200stang » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:09 pm

Hurry up, I just ordered a Dom with the 7" dash and I am going to need some help :D ...
All kidding aside you are doing a great job and it takes whatever it takes. :thumbup:
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #84 by 67Straightsix » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:12 pm

drag-200stang wrote:Hurry up, I just ordered a Dom with the 7" dash and I am going to need some help :D ...
All kidding aside you are doing a great job and it takes whatever it takes. :thumbup:

Thanks, I'm in Northern California and I'm freezing my butt off - I don't think I want to go to Michigan! :lol:
The engine is back in the car! While the engine was out I wrapped the headers with heat tape. I installed the power steering - it took over two hours for my wife (small fingers) and I to screw the front bracket bolts into the power steering! There's never any room to do anything easily on this build. Got the oil lines to the turbo all hooked up. Now for the bad news - I cut 1 1/2" out of the firewall and I moved the engine back an 1" from stock. With a stock radiator I'd have plenty of room for an electric fan - however I used an aluminum radiator for a V8 which is substantially deeper than the stock Ford. I got the slimmest fan I could find and it's still to deep - the center of the fan hits the water pump pulley. I'd already made the cowl of course. So now I'm going with two smaller fans and mount them diagonally to avoid the water pump pulley - and build another cowl.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #85 by 67Straightsix » Wed May 09, 2018 1:07 am

Latest update - finally have most of the wiring finished - I would recommend spending a the extra money and getting a quality wiring kit - it will save you a lot of time and frustration. Fabricated a transmission bracket because my the engine and trany sits 1 1/2 inches back from stock - that was surprisingly more difficult than I thought it would be. But, everything is now installed permanently. Still have a few things to do like the throttle and clean up some of the wiring. Finally started it and it fired right up even after a year of sitting! :D So happy to be moving on to brakes and suspension - should be on the road very soon! I have a question on exhaust: I'm running a 3 inch pipe from the turbo and then split to dual exhaust. I'm thinking of running two resonators with no muffler but am concerned about too much drone on the highway - should I use a muffler also?
https://youtu.be/WL-jdGl5kxc
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Pic of fuse panel:
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #86 by pmuller9 » Wed May 09, 2018 8:02 am

Looking and sounding Very Good!
What cam specs did you end up with?

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #87 by drag-200stang » Wed May 09, 2018 10:04 am

One of the best 200 builds I have ever seen. :thumbup:
Cannot help you with drone, you may have to experiment...But I will recommend you to keep post turbo back pressure the lowest that you can design ...It will pay off with better all around performance...Maybe kick out on an angle in front of the rear tires , short, and less bends
I know you know these things but try help others at the same time.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #88 by 67Straightsix » Thu May 10, 2018 12:39 am

Thanks for the compliments - always appreciate any feedback :) About the exhaust - I'm trying to walk a fine line between race car and every day driver, so I'm willing to sacrifice a little performance to keep the decibel level down. I think I'm going to split the exhaust and run it out the back with as few bends as possible ( I'll let ya know how that goes)
Here's a pic of my cam card:
Image

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #89 by bubba22349 » Thu May 10, 2018 8:29 am

:beer: excellent build quality and workmanship! On your exhaust you could build a resonator tube or two for duels, to cut down on the drone. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #90 by drag-200stang » Thu May 10, 2018 8:36 am

The cam in my old turbo was 266 adv. solid lifter shifted at 6500, 6800 at traps...New built 287 S should be good to shift at 7200.. .Had a 292 -S 500 lift , 3 240 engine yf's na that I ran with the 266 and the 292 was a dog at low speed would not start to come to about 5000 and would shift a 7500, compression may have been to low but that is why I turbo-ed it.. Seems like a very serious cam ,Your manifold and efi may change all of that.
For the knowledge base please let us know what the power range is and how it behaves when you get it all sorted out. :beer:
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #91 by pmuller9 » Thu May 10, 2018 9:41 am

I asked about the cam specs because of the very rough idle and now I see why.

Originally you wanted peak power not much more than 5000 rpm with plenty of mid range torque.
Both Comp cams and myself specified the .050" duration of less than 210 degrees on a wide Lobe Separation Angle.
I'm not sure why you went with the Clay Smith cam which is sooooo far off from the original recommendation?

Like Drag-200stang said, it will be good info to see how the cam responds with the turbo and EFI
but I suspect it won't be what you were looking for.

The correct cam for your application should idle smoothly at 650 rpm and have good torque from 2000 to 5000 rpms.
A Schneider 256H with a 1.6 ratio rocker arm would fit the profile.
This is not the first time Clay Smith provided a cam that had way too much duration and too tight of a LSA for a boosted Ford six.

I'm assuming the engine's compression ratio is close to 8:1?
What ratio rocker arms are being used?

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #92 by 67Straightsix » Thu May 10, 2018 11:00 pm

Thanks for the comments and critiques - much appreciated. Yeah, I screwed up my cam choice :roll: I was going to buy a Comp Cam but the tech got irritated at my many questions and stopped communicating with me - which rubbed me the wrong way. So I contacted Clay Smith and talked with their rep - assuming he knew which cam to go with I took his recommendation - I do realize, pmuller9, that you recommended the correct cam and I should have gone with it :arg: So I have this cam and am going with it and see what happens - I'll probably have to change it out -I'll update after I get the engine sorted. My compression ratio is 8:1.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #93 by xctasy » Sat May 12, 2018 4:41 am

The drone is resonance frm your exceptionally well made, large diameter primary exhaust system and induction system. The rest you can control by slapping a dual pipe final exhaust with conventional mufflers.

George Striegel at Clay Smith has been the man to get cams from in the past.....vast experience means he just sort of listens to what radio station your on, and whammo, you have a cam.

Smetimes Clay Smith or Schneider screw up, just like any. Your actual results vary. I don't like low lift, low duration cams on turbos. The 256H is in my humble opinion quite the wrong cam for a cut off log head with good intake and exhausting manifolds.

Lobe center discussions are all very good and well, but camminess is based on cold cranking compression with your pump gas octane, and how you trim the air fuel curve. The cam's actual dynamic compression ratio is mellowed by the total cfm flow with all the EFi and exhaust bolted up.

Your bare cylinder head casting with the iron head has similar flow figures to a 2V 250 Head with better exhaust flow. The intake flow figures are compromised at low rpm by port which are a little to big, and at high speeds by shape which is a little too far off the idealised apple port with the bottom of the port the wrong shape, and the top of the intake port to flat and square. So peak rpm looses power, and at low rp, you loose torque.


The reverse slpit cam is the right one, and going up in off the seat duration betweeen 30 and 50 thou is okay on a 3.3 six with opened up ports and better exhaust.



I don't doubt a Schneider 256H will idle better, but the problem is with ignition and fuel tables, not cam size or LCA. Lobe splay is better to be wider, but 115 is best for EFi, going back to narrow lobe splays isn't gonna help much.


A real disease with cam selection in the US is using benchmarking of existing mild cams on engines that aren't the same. The Schneider 256H and other cams like it have been used on 2V 250 headed 200's and Classic Inlines heads, and give great results. Period.


Georges "Turbo Expriement" was a 250 X flow Cortina with a 291 duration, 220 degree lift at 50 thou cam that others like Mike 1157 ran... a solid lifter cam on a 250 with a very good breathing head with more than 200 cfm at 25" H20.

All the 250 engines with turbos lap up extra duration and lift, and the little 200 needs a lot more duration and lift than the milder cams. The Lobe split angle recomendations for I6's are all wrong.Port EFi needs wider lobe centers to time the low speed pulses. All good programs give you crank angle at maximum piston speed, and that governs how you set up your injector pulses. Below 3000 rpm, the Fuel Injection world is sequential, and you really need to avoid narrow lobe centers.

Peak power rpm is defined by the traditional three or four emperical formulas, but low speed behavour is defined by injection and advance set up and cold cranking compression values. Yo9u can pull out valve lash and advance or retard cams to adjust, but it won't alter the peak power rpm much because thats set by the total cfm at 4500, 5000, 5500 and 6000 rpm zones. If you have 180 cfm at 520 thou valve lift with the intake manifold on, then your peak power rpm will be 5714 rpm with a 210 cubic inch engine, and as cubes go downwards, rpm goes up.


For a 30 thou over 200, that's smack dang on 5800 rpm. If your total cfm is lower at 520 thou lift, then peak rpm will drop, but there aint no way I'd ever undercam a 200 turbo with EFi with as little cam as that. Everyone these days is wanting to run power Steering, A/C, and high stall converters, and the common recomendations Jerry makes is for something a little less than the ideal. With bigger head flow CFM's, carb duration and lift don't need to be as high, but as the head become less efficent like our log heads, then cam duration and lift become CRITICAL.

Balancing off overscavanging is likewise ultra important, because Ford's engineers decided to restrict intake flow and adjust exhaust flow to 65% of the intake figure on all its engines. Cleveland 351 4V's are the worst, as are FE 390's and Lima 460's.

Anytime you got a great intake, Ford always restricted the exhaust hump. Mainly becasue they were lumped into little uni body X chassis 60's Falcon sedan based platforms with coil over A arm or Modified McPherson strut suspension Foxes that you couldn't swing a spanner in.

So all the Ford cams up till 1985 were ground for restrictive exhaust flow, while a turbo 200 with a cut off log needs a reverse cut intake and duration split like 300/290 or 280/270. Especvailly Aussie X flow alloy heads, the most unbalanced Ford head ever, with perfect exhaust ports, and very , very small intakes, becasue it was designed by Honda in Japan to a Ford Australia brief, using all the inputs from the old Lean Burn Four Cylinder project Ford and Honda did togehter in the mid 70's.


Everything changed in 1984-1/2 with th advent of headers and low restriction four catalyst exhausts, and then with roller cams. Ford did some great work on the V8 EFi engines, and changed the intake to exhasut split, the lobe angle, and from 1984, started using the Power Control Module to run the ingtion advance to control idle speeds and smoothness in adverse conditions. At lash duration went up, so did 50 thou figures, and they used electronics to tune out bad idles. Or, in the case of the few Saleens than came with the E303 roller cam, tuned in the B-A-D idle, and thats what everyone loves about a bad a$$ 5.0 Mustang. Idle chop!



I've seen Jerry Cantrell's latest cam recomendations, and they are generally very conservative. One done on Feb 7, 2018 was in my opinion, wrong for the combination supplied. ITB EFi, approx 220 cfm intake flow, 250 six with 4 stage auto. It was so far off Georges, and way, way off the Australian Dean Tigue cam. US cam selections use too much V8 histronics that don't relate to full house street in line sixes with Holley or Megasquirt port EFI control systems.

Having said all that, I love Schneider. Schneider cams back up and its cam selections appear to be based on the over rIding issue that nearly all US in line six cylinder guys have...."my Ford in liner won't idle smoothly." If its gonna take out a V8 on the street, then idle shouldn't be concern No 1 fellas.

I'm convinced that Schneider under recommend duration, lift and lobe center, not because they don't understand full house cams, but because they know that 90% of Ford Six Cylinder guys are a heck of a lot more conservative than Ford V8 guys, and that a smaller cam won't suffer break in and low speed drivablity problems, a primary issue for aftermarket cam buyers today.


All the recomendations I've seen leave a lot of power and mid range torque on the table, instead on in your in line engine. Use Fuel and Igntion EFi manages air fuel and idle tip in to fix off the cam issues. If a 2-bbl CFi 1985 Mustang used a cam milder than your Schneider 256h recomendation, then the Schneider recomendation isn't man enough for the job. Any time you loose two cylinders, 102 cubic inches,and add a turbo, you'll need to have a much racier than a good Ford 302-361 V8 "benchmark"cam.

A traditional Cobra Jet or Torino 73 351 Marine cam was what the 5.0 GT's and the non Saleen SVT R351 1994 Mustang used....

the D3OE-6250-AA cam for 1973 Torino/1982 GT 5.0/ 1984 5.0 GT or RS HO CFI / 1985 HO AOD/ 5.8 Lightening 260° intake, 278 (or 274 by another source)° exhaust

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=71872

84-85 5.0L CFI
Cam OE Number Type Int Lift Exh Lift Int Dur Exh Dur Int Dur@.050 Exh Dur@.050 Lobe Centerline
D3OE-6250-AA Hydraulic .416 .445 260 274 198 208 114.5

Split lobe cams were Fords total solution to getting cars to make low end torque while still giving okay emmissions. The culmination of them was the 1985 to 1993 Ford Motorsport "Deadly Letter" Roller Cams.

The cam choices sugested are just too conservative for me, and they typically over scavange like all Ford performance cams from 1968 to 1985.


Ford learned to widen the lobe center and not be affraid of extra 50 thou duration with the advent of EFi.

We should be doing the same thing, even with solid lifter flat tappet cams.
Last edited by xctasy on Sat May 12, 2018 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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xctasy
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #94 by xctasy » Sat May 12, 2018 5:40 am

Another conservative cam choice. But the recomendation is on the right track. So Jerry clearly makes his recommendations to suit his clients.


viewtopic.php?f=22&t=75914&p=592310#p592310
"Turbo 200 in 1967 MGB"
SynchromeshWines wrote:Hi Guys,
Some of you may have seen that a couple of us MGB owners were experimenting with a 200-6 transplant into an MGB. I'm one of them...
I have a 1967 MGB modified to fit a 200 t5 combo. The engine sits back nice and far and also quite low so balance should be good. The engine/trans combo actually weighs less than the original 4 banger thanks to thin wall casting. I have also fitted a coil over 4-link rear end and corresponding front suspension and brake modifications.

I have an aluminum head on order with Matt, Turbo curved DUI Distributor and am likely going to give the FiTech 600hp power adder fuel injection unit a go. It is on the large size for a NA 200 with aluminum head but should be in a good space with blow through turbo setup. Is anyone else running one on a small six? I have a custom grind cam from Schneider with the following specs:


intake 280 duration 220 @ .050" .450" lift
exhaust 270 duration 214 @ .050" .440" lift
114 lobe center


I picked up 2 Holset turbos to start the build with and will be running a front mounted intercooler. One is a HX35 with about 100,000kms on it and the other is a low mile rebuilt HY35W (internally wastegated). From my research the HY35 and HX35 wastegates are set around 17-20psi from the earlier cummins. Is anyone running a similar sized Holset with the internal wastegate? If so were you able to adjust the actuator far enough to get boost psi to a more reasonable range? What PSI are you finding it boosts to and can the wastegate keep up with boost creep on a 200? I am planning on using the HY35 unless I find it too small on top end then may just switch the exhaust housing/turbine to something more appropriate.

If I don't have to go to an external wastegate right away I would rather not for simplicity. I'm sure I'll have plenty of kinks to work out with the entire setup and having a more straight forward exhaust setup during all the in and outs will be preferable.

Thanks, I would welcome any input and advice. This is my first foray into the Falcon six and turbocharging but not my first engine build. I have gone through a few high performance ford big blocks and mgb engines.

Alan

PS: here is the build thread on the MG Experience forums http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?40,2895734
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

drag-200stang
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #95 by drag-200stang » Sat May 12, 2018 10:00 am

I also agree the 256 is less that what 67 needs but the 300 may be to much, the split needs more testing in my opinion.

67 please tell us what pistons you are using ( aluminum ) is not a answer..I fell for that already . :wink: What is your planed upper maximum shift point? You have stock piston's?
Also about the turbo, what size comp.inducer, turbine exducer, and turbine AR.?....This will help us understand more. :thanks:
I have no problem with a higher idle, helps keep the cam well oiled. I still favor solid cam on these one valve cover engines, the sound is classic.
By the way the engine sound great. :thumbup: ...I am more stoked about getting my efi done, maybe to much, went wrong way, cut corner off of a trigger tooth and is in bad spot to make missing :bang:
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #96 by pmuller9 » Sat May 12, 2018 1:12 pm

Here is the link to the engine build.
I will comment later.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=72627&hilit=cam

drag-200stang
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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #97 by drag-200stang » Sat May 12, 2018 9:55 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Here is the link to the engine build.
I will comment later.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=72627&hilit=cam

Thanks, That helps...I though there was more info and could not find it here. :oops:
Cam changed , what else?
5000 is a little low for a short stroke 200 with forged pistons, I would think.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #98 by xctasy » Sun May 13, 2018 6:01 am

I think you all good. Its the injector sequencing and fuel tables you need to experiement with first. If your cam is installed straight up and set at the correct lash figures.

The head has been ported - I'm using 1.46 ex. and 1.75 int. - have forged pistons and a.r.p. bolts
I'm using Holley HP for my fuel and ignition management and Ford throttlebody



And focus on how you have to run your 36 lb/hr black injectors.

The pulse width and injector impedence has to suit the Holley HP, and the ingition tip in has to be mapped to control idle surge. You've got a 3000 rpm C4 stall converter?

Jimbo65 had a heck of a job with running a 130 amp alternator, and if you have electric colling fans and a rope seal or engine that isn't run in and the cam timed to suit the actual gasoline your using, it'll take awhile to tune the base idle. When the A/C cuts in in drive, wit the power steering on full lock, you just have to use ignition advance modulation to enure the idel is stable. Unloaded, you can use a differing advance tip in.


Back to where it is head flow wise.


The head has to be flowing less than 155 cfm at 520 thou to have a 5000 rpm peak power rpm. I'm fairly certain your peak flow will be a hack of a lot more than that.

If you had 155 cfm, that's not going to make much more than 205 hp at 5000 rpm with 155 cfm flow. You then add your 12 pounds of boost, and it'll make 370 horsepower with an intercooler.


You need a Clay Smith Solid cam with 274 degrees at that level, like Crosley uses. He passes through the traps at 6200rpm, so power is likely to be at 5400 rpm with his direct mount 500 cfm Holley 2-bbl. His peak cylinder head flow will be about 155 cfm at 490 thou lift.

I'd say the peak cfm would be a lot higher than 155 cfm with your intake on, most likely 180 cfm, with the head flowing more than 190 cfm bare at 520 thou lift.

Fast64Ranchero, JTTurbo used the sawn off log, and looked to get about 175 cfm without any real major port work on the intake.


The figures Fast64Ranchero used were bare head flow figures, with a hard edge adaptor, not the same as your RHS intake, which will most likely have a flow drop of only 5% at wide open throttle.


Now, talking as an egg head. Despite a technically wrong cut off log heads port shape,

ie with the injectors in the high flow zone,

and even with a stagnant port floor,

the average size of the ports is still huge....well over a 1.65" diameter equivalant circle. Size is not the issue, Pipe Max and other programs have you covered with any effective port size from 1.65 inch circle to 1.75 inches giving you all the flow potential to make even 370 to 420 hp WithOut a turbo.

its the shape that gives great cfm.



Your cam choice is fine as it has a wider lobe angle between itake and exhaust, and the way the injectors are pulse tuned and set electrically and the way you have the ignition are ramped is how to settle the idle. You've got cam retard and advance to check, and you can alter lash to ensure you get a 185 psi cold cranking compression.

Question 1 .

What is your static compression,
cold craking compression
and your idle vacuum at 950 rpm loaded with A/C, P/S and C4 in drive.
and your idle vacuum at 950 rpm unloaded without A/C, P/S and C4 in neutral .


With you cam set straight up, that then gives me your dynamic compression ratio,

What your peak and Dynamic compression ratio is with the exhaust closing event you have. That governs what octane gas you cna use with your planned boost. That gives me a few clues as to how to trim your ignition.



So your dynamic compression ratio is controlled by where the cam is dialed in, and what your exhaust and intake lash figures are. If you feel the cam is too big, you can put more lost motion in the tappet clearnace, and change the cam from straight up. Idle can be softened drastically, and you need to see what the idle MAP figures are to see if you need to make basic changes.

I start with the cam at the grinders recomendation, and at the specified lash, then read idle vacuum in Inches of water. If you've got less than 15, then you just need to fiddle with the base cam phasing.


All engines with less exhaust duration and lift are easy to tune to get great vacuum compared to a cam that is 300/300 at lash, or 240/240 at 50 thou.


The idle of a 3.3 liter in line six with 240 and 236 degrees of 50 thou lift is normally very sweet.

Down here, production Holden Torana XU1's 1972-1973 had factory option production Wade XH 383 and XJ 391 or XJ373 cams, real factory 312, or 326 degree at lash solid lifter camshafts that made 216 to 250 hp on production racing cars. Last ones in race cars were XJ cams and had 241 duration at 50 thou and just and 452 thou lift. EFi on a wide lobe helps the 300/290 at lash cams run a lot nicer than an old Triple Stromberg CDS175 carb engine.


Here is how it idles, in the dyno room, and in the car. A 326 degree cam with 22 degree rams, 241 degree 50 thou lift

https://youtu.be/jYyHfsf1hJE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYyHfsf1hJE


https://youtu.be/L340kHosZvU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L340kHosZvU


When you have an open exhaust without a turbo, it sounds just like your engine did on first start up.


https://youtu.be/T4eM--NfKrQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4eM--NfKrQ


Remember, people at Ford spent millions on sound deadening, and making cast alloy intakes, steel tube manderel bent headers, and then going back to cast iron and plastic intake manifolds.

It won't idle like a 252 or 256 factory cam with 380 thou lift, but EFI really tones down once you get a handle on the igntion and make sure you use the right injectors. The cam can be rephased without too much performance loss if the cold cranking compression is in the sweet zone of 185 psi.


Just like the old 351 C 4V HO engines with the 300 degree cam. Don't go back to a lower rent cam with less duration. Tune it to suit.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #99 by 67Straightsix » Sun May 13, 2018 10:58 am

This build as been an experiment - I wanted to try some things that I haven't seen done and it basically has taken on a life of it's own. I have to admit this car has turned more into a track car than street car - so some of the parameters have changed. I'll put the car on a dyno and see what the hp curve is and go from there because right now everything is speculation. I've done all the idle tuning I can until the car is actually on the road.
Here's the turbo I have:
Turbonetics T3 - T4E 50 trim/62 turbine wheel/T3 82AR turbine housing
Pistons are Racetec custom forged pistons
65mm throttle body (instead of 63mm)
Right now I'm running 3.00 rear end gears, but that is going to change to either a 3.5 or 3.73 (I want to drive the car before making that decision)
Everything else is the same as my original plan

It's good to see you back xctasy - I can't give you some info because the ac is not hooked up yet - and not sure if I ever stated this but I'm running a manual transmission. Enjoyed the videos.

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Re: turbo 200 build

Post #100 by xctasy » Sun May 13, 2018 12:53 pm

I assure you about 244 thou is just right if its manual and the head doesn't flow as well as an Aussie cross flow or worked CNC ported Bathurst 3300 Holden 9 or 12 port head.

Camminess is due to other things....as you port the head, you loose air speed, and when its sub crtical, it then screws up idle.

Most of your issues are likely to be reverberation from the materials you've used to make the intake, exhaust and that's making you think you'v over cooked it. Hence the very conservative cam profiles US cam grinders(even Clay Smith) use and recommend.


So take heart and cary on with it. The Holden videos are just an example of how a 312 to 326 degree cam with manual gear box sound in the dyno cell, in the stock production car, and in the race car. Each is an exaple of how far you can go.

Your noware near over cooking it on idle because you don't have the peak head flow CFM figures someone like Mike1157's auto, 250 cross flow turbo had. had. If you remove and automatic gearbox, and take off 50 cubic inches, a cam in the 230 to 244 50 thou lift idles the same as an auto 250.


Ford Australia always made 3.3's manuals, and 4.1 automatics from the same basic engine block. Do do that, Ford used the same carb jetting or similar CFi mapping. Axle ratios were put numerically upwards(3.23's verses 2.92's or 2.77's or 3.08's) , and dropped downwards when the capacity was added.

In the Torana, it ran a close ratio four speed, and had 3.08 or 3.36:1 gears without and overdriven 4th gear.

Individual runner EFi cars have a supremely docile idle if tuned right, even over the 300 degree mark with low compression. It's like the old K code 271 hp 289 cam in a 63-67 Hi Po v8 Fairlane or Mustang. It's just got a lumpy idle...not a psychotic one. Everyone will love it, and even as a daily driver, you'd love it too. Back then, they didn't have 5 speed gearboxes and wide ratio 4 speed automatics and EFi to tame the edgy-ness off idle a 310 degree cam had. Your at a point below that level. The reason they only sold 18000 K code engines was just that...it was too wild for Auntie Jane. Your not Auntie Jane.....As was said back in the 90's as advice to a guy making a 280 degree cammed Holden 3.3 eat V8's. If you want it to take out a V8, it won't idle like a stock 240 or 260 degree cam in a 1-bbl 3.3 six. The good thing is, 200 cube sixes with 1-bbls never idled any good anyway, so you can go a lot choppier with cam choice the moment you add multiple carbs or port EFi. That is worth 40 degrees on any stock at lash cam reading, and about 32 degrees on the 50 thou figure. A triple carbed 200 cube six with a 232 degree 50 thou cam idles like a 1-bbl 200 with 200 degrees 50 thou.

That's how it works with our sixes, especially the little T code Ford 200's because of its rod ratio and its lack of inclination to rev being even less than the old Holden 3.3 liter engines. Adding a cam, carbs or EFi to them turned the 202 cars into rampant fire breathing machines. The idles even up to 312 degrees peak duration were pretty stable. When you added a big gun exhaust, they suddenly got a lot noiser and cagey, but the factory XUI Bathurst cars came out with 312 cams with over 225 degrees of 50 thou lift.


That's your benchmark. EFi with a wider lobe center mops up the idle roughness even with 244/236 intake and exhaust.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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