Turbo 240 or 300

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Ramian17
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Turbo 240 or 300

Post #1 by Ramian17 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:19 pm

Hey guys I'm super new to this forum. I own a 1966 Econoline. I've already ripped the motor out of it and have taken it to a machine shop to have it rebuilt. I am going to turbo charge and direct port fuel inject it. I've been reading a ton of stuff on this forum and other ford forums for a long time. I am basically looking for any advice on things that I may have missed. The machine shop couldn't find 240 forged rods. So the rods on order currently make it a 300. Does anyone know of any high performance rods that they make for the 240? Also what software should I use for the fuel injection and the ignition control?(F.A.S.T, mega squirt, Bosch, they list is endless? Which head is another huge question I have both a newer fuel injected 300 head and an older 240 head. What turbo should I use? I'm not looking for more speed I want the same RPMs just more torque. I want to tow more at highway speeds. Im looking to be making strong boost at 1500 and maxing out around 3000. Thanks a bunch guys!!

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #2 by pmuller9 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:32 am

The 1966 240 rods are forged and since they do not have the oil spit hole like the later rods they are very strong. The rod forging # on the beam is C5AE.
The rods just need to have the beam ground smooth, shot peened and resized with ARP bolts.
See the following link.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/393 ... G_0010.jpg

The crankshaft stroke determines the engine size, not the rods.
The 240 crank has a 3.18" stroke while the 300 crank has a 3.98" stroke.
The crank would have to be changed to convert the 240 to a 300.

If the engine is a 240 then use the 240 head.
If you are changing crankshafts to convert to a 300 then use the 1965-1986 300 carburetor head.

It seems like a lot of money and effort to use an aftermarket EFI system just to supply 6 to 8 lbs of boost at low rpm.
A blow thru carb set-up would work just fine.
The ignition timing could be controlled using the MSD Programmable 6AL-2 ignition (Part# 6530) triggered by the Ford 300 Duraspark distributor.

Turbo compressor inducer size no larger than 47mm.
Holset HX30, GT2860RS are two examples.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #3 by Ramian17 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:38 pm

Awesome thanks for the info pmuller. That is just the boost that I want to Cruz at everyday. Don't you worry I still plan on cranking the boost up to see what this thing can do!!!! Yeah you are right it is a lot of money. But two of my main goals is to not modified the dog house ( so a giant 4 barrel won't fit heck a 2 barrel throttle body won't even fit), and to get the same or better gas mileage which should be helped greatly by direct port injection and a little boost to help her along. Please correct me if I'm wrong lol? I also want to get rid of the distributor and have full control of the ignition. I have not had good luck with any aftermarket electronic ignition distributors. Thanks again for the help I imagine I'm going to need a lot of it.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #4 by pmuller9 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:30 pm

I recommend the Holley HP EFI.
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_sy ... s/550-605N

You can use six GM LSx individual coils for a distributorless ignition system.

A modified Ford 300 Duraspark distributor can be used to supply the cam sync signal for sequential mode.
Replace the distributor cap with a round cover

You will have to mount a 58 tooth wheel and sensor to the harmonic balancer for the system trigger signal.

Coils and trigger wheel can be salvaged off an LSx engine from a wrecking yard

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #5 by Ramian17 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:36 pm

Nice that Holley kit looks nice. Will it be able to use all OEM seniors as they are the parts that will most likely brake. What do you think about just using stock 300 fuel injection parts like the coil pack, and all the sensors? Which leads me to another question where is the MAS air flow sensor? On the the rare 300 that had one. The crank trigger sensor and coil pack off of a Chevy LS motor will work ah? How much modification will a duraspark 300 distributor need, machine work? Also what lbs injectors would you recommend I go with to start off? Thanks again so much for all the help.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #6 by pmuller9 » Thu Dec 15, 2016 5:20 pm

The Holley HP system (Part# 550-605N) comes with all sensors needed to operate the system including the heavier duty NTK O2 wide band sensor.
It uses a Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor (MAP) instead of the MAF. It is also supplied with the kit.
It will need to be a 2 BAR MAP sensor to allow you to run up to 15 lbs of boost

You need additional spark energy for an engine under boost so I am not so sure about stock ignition components.
If you want to use a waste spark coil pack like the stock Ford then the Holley coils would be the better way to go.
This kit also comes with the pickup for the crank trigger wheel. You will see the universal wheel at the bottom of the page.
https://www.holley.com/products/ignitio ... ts/556-105

Here is the Holley version of the individual LSx coils
https://www.holley.com/products/ignitio ... ts/556-112

The ford 300 Duraspark Distributor has six reluctors. The following pic shows 8 reluctors.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/393 ... rkDist.jpg
Five reluctors are ground off leaving only one as cam sync signal.
Remove vacuum advance and pin the plate solid to the distributor base.
Also remove the mechanical advance and lock it out solid to the main shaft.
You can also remove part of the shaft above the reluctors so you can use a flat cover to replace the distributor cap.

If you want to figure on 250 hp max then it requires 32 lb injectors.

What intake manifold will you use?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #7 by Ramian17 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:24 am

I am using the lower half of the lower half of a stock 300 fuel injected intake. I'm going to cut all six tubes and then weld on a larger pipe to make a plenum all with hopes that it will fit in a 66 econoline dog house. I wanted to use all stock sensors where possible but that MAP sensor sounds like a must. What do you think, should I try to keep stock sensors on it where I can, or do I travel with extra sensors? There really aren't that many. I was told by some techs that with some set ups I could do away with the top of the distributor and just have the crank sensor for timing? Obviously pending something else to power the oil pump.
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #8 by pmuller9 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:54 am

A large tube (or plenum) welded to the front of the six stock tubes will work if a single throttle body is mounted to the front of the plenum.
The air temperature sensor must mount directly into the plenum.
There must also be at least two threaded holes for 1/8" fittings for the lines for the MAP sensor and the turbo wastegate.
Just add a 1/4" thick plate somewhere on the plenum for threaded holes. It could be a thick end plate also.
The stock 300 EFI dual throttle body is equivalent to a 60mm single TB. Get the TB first to help you decide on tube (Plenum) diameter.

The EFI system sensors are:
Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)
Manifold Air Pressure Sensor (MAP)
Coolant Temperature Sensor (CTS)
Manifold Air Temperature Sensor (MAT)
Wide Band Oxygen Sensor (WB02)
Optional:
Fuel Pressure
Oil Pressure
Knock Sensor

The TPS sensor comes with the throttle body wherever you end up getting it from.
The Holley EFI system is calibrated for the sensors that are specified for the system.
Sensor failure is not common and most sensor failures won't keep you from driving home.
Sensors and other parts can be found here: https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_sy ... omponents/
Here is the wiring manual: http://documents.holley.com/techlibrary ... 5rev17.pdf

You do not need a cam sync signal and just have the crank sensor for timing if you use a waste spark ignition setup and do not do sequential injection. However sequential injection works best on a low rpm application like yours so the fuel injection timing is the same for all cylinders in relation to the intake valve opening and closing.
Also in sequential mode you can individually tune each cylinder's ignition timing and fuel.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #9 by Ramian17 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:46 pm

Dang pmuller thanks for all the info that helps so much. You are slowly crushing my fears and my unknowns of this project.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #10 by pmuller9 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:30 am

So what did you find out from your machine shop about the connecting rods they ordered?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #11 by Ramian17 » Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:57 am

Unfortunately I didn't make it down there today. I will have to wait until Monday.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #12 by pmuller9 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:56 pm

updates?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #13 by Ramian17 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:14 am

Hey guys sorry for the long time between updates. I haven't given up yet. The pistons just came in so the shop has everything it needs to make the old girl run. The turbo is also in the process of being put together. So hopefully more updates soon.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #14 by pmuller9 » Fri Feb 03, 2017 11:41 am

Ya know we are gonna want to see pictures of the rods and new pistons if possible.
Thanks

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #15 by Keystoner16 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:37 pm

What exhaust manifold and turbo are you using??

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #16 by Chipchop300 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:50 am

Howdy. I have an 88 300 efi and I just picked up a hx35 3 inch down pipe and a bunch of oil lines and fittings getting ready to turbo my girl.still have yet to learn about wide bands and finding an exhaust manifold. Herd talk about old hd exhaust manifolds off f600-f700s and supposubly is one with a 4 bolt flange that would fit my holset hx35. Called around to some local junk yards and their is one about an hr from my house he doesnt seem to think this 4 bolt flange exists on the old manifolds just a 3 bolt and 2 bolt design but I'm looking for possibly a casting number or if anybody happens to know more on these please fill me in. Thanks

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #17 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 9:03 pm

I believe the 4 bolt flange was a weld on modification used in Ak Miller turbo kits.
http://www.ckdesign-inc.com/images/Turbo/Manifold1.JPG
http://www.ckdesign-inc.com/images/Turbo/Manifold2.JPG

I would pick up one of the HD manifolds on Ebay and make an adapter plate for the turbo.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300-4-9-Ford-He ... 3f74bb42fb

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #18 by curts56 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:25 am

PMuller is correct. Ak chopped the outlet off an HD manifold and welded on the flange. I welded on the plate over the heat riser and milled off the bottom of the intake so it would clear. I think the smarter way would have been to install the plate so it was below the heat riser mating surface. Then you could still bolt the intake and exhaust together. Maybe the air gap is a good thing?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #19 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:50 am

curts56 wrote: Maybe the air gap is a good thing?

As you already know the exhaust manifold is going to run much hotter when the turbocharger is producing boost.
I too think the air gap would be a good thing.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #20 by drag-200stang » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:25 pm

X3,..I use a port divider to create a dead air gap on SB I6s. ..Not for exhaust flow,but for heat isolation to the intake manifold.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #21 by Ramian17 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:12 am

Holy cow guys I'm still waiting on the engine from the machine shop. He is waiting on custom pistons. Shouldn't be much longer...hopefully. As soon as I get it back I'm ready to through it in the van. Then it's off to the header shop to mount the turbo. I'm not sure on the turbo I'm thinking T3 or a 6266 something sized for a 302. I need it to spool up at or before 1500rpms. Any suggestions is always welcome. I am going to do some calling Monday, and try to lock down the turbo. Was thinking turbonetics but they never answer the phone. I need to order the ECM soon also. Has anyone heard of or used fuel tech? They have some super cool products. Also have been looking for some aftermarket fuel rails for this thing anyone know of any? Thanks for all the help

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #22 by pmuller9 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:43 am

Ramian17 wrote:Holy cow guys I'm still waiting on the engine from the machine shop. He is waiting on custom pistons. Shouldn't be much longer...hopefully. As soon as I get it back I'm ready to through it in the van. Then it's off to the header shop to mount the turbo. I'm not sure on the turbo I'm thinking T3 or a 6266 something sized for a 302. I need it to spool up at or before 1500rpms. Any suggestions is always welcome. I am going to do some calling Monday, and try to lock down the turbo. Was thinking turbonetics but they never answer the phone. I need to order the ECM soon also. Has anyone heard of or used fuel tech? They have some super cool products. Also have been looking for some aftermarket fuel rails for this thing anyone know of any? Thanks for all the help


A PT6266 turbo is way too large!!! It is a 735 hp 62mm inducer turbo.
The biggest possible turbo would be something in the low 50mm range.

A 302 V8 can pump a lot more air than a 300 six. Not a good way of sizing a turbo for your engine.

First, Is the engine size a 240 or 300?
Second, Once the turbo size is figured then I highly recommend the Borg Warner S200 series turbo.
Jegs carries most of the product line.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #23 by CNC-Dude » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:04 am

Ramian17 wrote:Holy cow guys I'm still waiting on the engine from the machine shop. He is waiting on custom pistons. Shouldn't be much longer...hopefully. As soon as I get it back I'm ready to through it in the van. Then it's off to the header shop to mount the turbo. I'm not sure on the turbo I'm thinking T3 or a 6266 something sized for a 302. I need it to spool up at or before 1500rpms. Any suggestions is always welcome. I am going to do some calling Monday, and try to lock down the turbo. Was thinking turbonetics but they never answer the phone. I need to order the ECM soon also. Has anyone heard of or used fuel tech? They have some super cool products. Also have been looking for some aftermarket fuel rails for this thing anyone know of any? Thanks for all the help


Regarding plenum shape and size, its often part of the design process to make the plenum volume larger in boosted engines compared to the same plenum for N/A engines. A plenum volume of 1-1/2 to 2 times the engine size is normal for boosted engines, while a plenum size of equal size to the engine is common for N/A engines. Also, the runners need a generous radius at the point where the runners meet the plenum. Airflow doesn't like sharp transitions as this disrupts airflow and can cause uneven airflow from runner to runner.
Image

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #24 by curts56 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:14 am

What type of boost control do you plan on using?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #25 by Ramian17 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:42 pm

Awesome thanks for the plenum advice I plan on flaring out all six of the runners on the plenum. Boost control will be decided by the wastegate I choose for the turbo right? So which turbo do I go with? I'm looking at the turbonetics T04E 60 trim, Garret GTX28 76, or a GTX 30 76? I know very little about turbos. Those are the ones that the turbo pros on the phone have suggested for me. I'm looking for 5 to 10 pounds of boost, 14 pounds when I get crazy. With it boosting at 1500RPM and no higher than 2500RPM. 300 to 400 horses and torque. Any of you guys done this before with RPMs that low?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #26 by pmuller9 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:52 pm

Ramian17 wrote:Awesome thanks for the plenum advice I plan on flaring out all six of the runners on the plenum. Boost control will be decided by the wastegate I choose for the turbo right? So which turbo do I go with? I'm looking at the turbonetics T04E 60 trim, Garret GTX28 76, or a GTX 30 76? I know very little about turbos. Those are the ones that the turbo pros on the phone have suggested for me. I'm looking for 5 to 10 pounds of boost, 14 pounds when I get crazy. With it boosting at 1500RPM and no higher than 2500RPM. 300 to 400 horses and torque. Any of you guys done this before with RPMs that low?

This is important! The turbocharger size depends on the engine size when you are looking for a specific rpm power range.
In this case significant boost from 1500 rpm out to 3000 rpm
At the beginning of the thread there was a question about this engine being a 240 or a 300.
Do you know what the crankshaft stroke is?

Second very important question is: Are you going to use an intercooler?
Example: A stock head 300 six will make 300 HP at around 4000 rpm at 15 lbs of boost using an air to air intercooler running at 50% efficiency .
Torque is around 470 ft lbs between 1500 and 2500 rpm.
Without an intercooler there is a 50 ft lb drop in torque across the power band.

In order to get more than 300 hp @ 15 lbs of boost the cylinder head would need modifications to increase port flow.

Third very important question is concerning the compression ratio.
In order to have power very low in rpm the camshaft profile will need to close the intake valve very early.
This will lead to a high Dynamic Compression Ratio which means the Static Compression Ratio needs to be low at 8.5 or less.
Do you know what the compression ratio will be?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #27 by Ramian17 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:47 pm

I don't know the exact stroke, but I do know that it's going to be a 300 for sure. I'm definitely going to be using an intercooler. I'm not sure on the exact compression ratio, but we talked about keeping it low around 8.5 or 9 so that we can turn up the boost. We talked about a custom ground cam duration at .050" is 212/212, lift is .447/.447, LSA is 114. And the cylinder head from my 240 is getting ported and polished so hopefully the do good on that. I will go over there tomorrow and get the exact stroke, cam grind, and compression ratio from the guy. Thanks so much for your help. I would love to have the numbers you are talking about that would be a huge step up from my old girl. Does what I'm telling you sound like it should work and if so which turbo?!?!?! Lol I'm dying to know and get that thing headed my way!!! Thanks again pmuller9.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #28 by pmuller9 » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:48 pm

Ramian17 wrote:I don't know the exact stroke, but I do know that it's going to be a 300 for sure. I'm definitely going to be using an intercooler. I'm not sure on the exact compression ratio, but we talked about keeping it low around 8.5 or 9 so that we can turn up the boost. We talked about a custom ground cam duration at .050" is 212/212, lift is .447/.447, LSA is 114. And the cylinder head from my 240 is getting ported and polished so hopefully the do good on that. I will go over there tomorrow and get the exact stroke, cam grind, and compression ratio from the guy. Thanks so much for your help. I would love to have the numbers you are talking about that would be a huge step up from my old girl. Does what I'm telling you sound like it should work and if so which turbo?!?!?! Lol I'm dying to know and get that thing headed my way!!! Thanks again pmuller9.

The cam specs look good. It will work with the stock rocker arms. Just need to increase the spring pressure.
The 212/212 .050" 114 LSA cam will make peak torque around 2500 rpm which is actually a good place for towing.
The 300 still retains plenty of torque below 2000 rpm so no worries.
Just be sure to install the cam advanced with the intake lobe center @ 110* ATDC.

Now for some fun where you get to participate.
I set this turbo calculator with close to your engine specs @ 15 lbs of boost so you can see the airflow load points in the row listed as Corrected Air Flow Rate, lb/min
These are the points that get superimposed on the turbo compressor map to check for the correct turbo match.
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarke ... sin=92044&
You can change any parameter including boost.
Starting at 2000 rpm the flow rate is 16.96 lbs/min and at 4500 rpm it is 30.72. round off to 17 and 30.
At the top of the same chart is the compression ratio which is just above 2. One atmosphere of pressure is 14.7 psi at sea level at standard temp. 15 lbs of boost is just over another atmosphere added. So (14.7 + 15)/14.7 = 2.02 or the ratio of boost over pressure at sea level.

Next look at the compressor map for the GTX2876 that was recommended.
Click on the compressor map image just below the turbocharger image.
https://www.extremepsi.com/store/produc ... ctid=31717
If you look at the left side of the map you will see the pressure level. We will be using a level of 2
Now come across that level till you find the two airflow point of 17 and 30. The load line will be a line between those two points.
Notice that our load line fits nicely across the map with a little extra room to the right for extra power.
It take approximately 1 lb of air per min to make 10 horsepower so 30 lbs per min is about 300 hp.
There is room at that pressure level to go out to 40 lbs per min for 400 hp which gives a good margin for additional HP.
Now change the boost to 5 lbs and use the new pressure ratio and flow points see if the load line is still within the compressor limits.
Looks like a good match?
If you look at the compressor specs it shows the GTX2876 as a 50mm compressor inducer (the inlet or small inside diameter of the wheel) and an 67mm exducer (outside wheel diameter).

Here is the latest Garrett catalog where you can find the compressor map for the GTX 3076 that was also suggested.
You may find that the 3076 is on the large size for your engine application.

https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyg ... -Vol-6.pdf

The GTX series has a ceramic ball bearing center and many other features that causes it to also come with a nice price tag.

From the maps that I could find the Turbonetics T04E 60 trim looks to be on the large side.

The problem is when you are trying to get good boost at low rpm the airflow is low at that point and the load line pushes the surge limit/ left side of the map.

A 360* journal bearing center turbo has a price tag more in line with budget.
I purposely displayed the Borg Warner turbo of choice for your engine at the bottom of the MatchBot calculator.
The S200SX-E has a very wide map at the lower pressure ratios allowing for wide rpm power bands.
Jegs carries the Borg Warner line.

We didn't discuss turbine housing A/R yet. Will wait until you get handle on the compressor side.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #29 by Ramian17 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:47 pm

Awesome thanks a I read up on all that info last night learned a lot. It sounds like you are leaning towards the Garret or Warner turbos not the turbonetics? On one of the graphs on the match bot all five dots didn't line up on one line? And yeah I have no idea what AR I need on either side. When they say TO4E or GTX2876 does any of that reference AR or trim or anything really for that matter lol? I want a ball bearing turbo for this project for sure. I have got a lot of different opinions from a lot of people on the water cooled or not? I just want to have it be reliable and make a lot of power lol. My budget for the turbo is $2000 I think that will get you the best of the best right?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #30 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:40 pm

I have used twin 88mm Turbonetics for racing. We switched to Precision and picked up some efficiency. Not really relevant here just thought I'd mention it. As far as I can tell the TO4E 60 was on the large side.

The GTX2876 will work except it looks like it has been replaced with the GTX2867.
There is a GTX2967 that is also available which appears to have a more efficient compressor than the GTX2867.

The Borg Warner equivalent would be the EFR 7064-B.

Trim is simply the ratio of the small diameter area to the outside diameter area of either the compressor or turbine wheel.

The A/R of the turbine housing is very important. It is the ratio of the turbine housing inlet cross-sectional area to the radius of the turbine wheel.
Basically as you decrease inlet size, the exhaust gas velocity increases spinning the turbo faster as a result so it will respond better to low rpm.
However the smaller inlet size is more restrictive and will choke the turbo sooner effecting the ability to make higher rpm power.
A smaller A/R turbine housing will make more power at low rpm while the larger A/R will make higher rpm power. Same old story of give and take. LOL
You would be looking between a .60s to .80s for a turbine housing A/R.
If you really want a lot boost by 1500 rpm then use a .64 A/R or whatever is close to that.

The turbo experiences the most heat to the center section after engine shutdown.
Water cooling helps during the time the engine is running and after shutdown during the time heat is being transferred to the center from the turbine housing. The heat absorption creates an effect known as “thermal siphoning” which pulls the water through the center even though the water pump is not running.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #31 by Ramian17 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:33 pm

Awesome those turbos all look good to me. Went and talked to him to today my compression is 8:1 stroke is 3.98 exhaust valve size is 1.94 and intake valve is 1.6 and this is my cam.
IMG_20170314_135225257.jpg

The guy building my engine likes Warner for turbos and said that he would go for a turbo built for a 4L motor? He sais with that cam to set it at 108° ATDC?
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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #32 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:50 pm

Yes that particular cam does get set at 108* ATDC.
That is Crowers "Off the shelf" naturally aspirated cam which has more focus on upper rpm power.

For a turbo cam I prefer NOT to have more exhaust duration than intake duration for low rpm power.
Most of the energy from exhaust cycle that is driving the turbo turbine is from the blow down portion, from the time the exhaust valve opens till just after BDC.
At very low rpm any exhaust valve open time remaining after the intake valve opens (valve overlap) causes reversion in the intake port especially when using the stock log exhaust manifold.
Exhaust pressure can be twice the intake manifold pressure under boost.

Please have Crower grind a cam with the specs you previously mentioned. 202/202 114 LSA.
Here is a 300 six custom turbo cam that Crower did where the exhaust duration is less than the intake duration.

Image
If you are going to use the Warner ball bearing turbo it needs to be either the EFR 6258-A or the EFR 7064-B.
The EFR 6758-G. is a little larger but will still work.
Anything else is too big.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #33 by Ramian17 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:15 pm

Dangit I wasn't very happy when he pulled out the none turbo cam. Sense I told him to get a custom ground one. Well how much of a difference is it going to make do I go back in the tomorrow and tell him to order one like yours? I'm all going to have a custom one off header made from m&m exhaust they only make headers.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #34 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:29 pm

The header helps because the separate primary tubes isolate each cylinder and can actually create low pressure in the tubes behind the high pressure exhaust pulse.
It is still important not to have a long exhaust duration especially if you want power at very low rpm.
Because of the header the exhaust duration doesn't have to be less than the intake, the 202/202 114 LSA would be good.
The LSA at 114 is also important. The larger LSA decreases the valve overlap period.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #35 by Ramian17 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:00 pm

Alright so from the sounds of what you are telling me I need to man up and go tell him to order the custom cam? How long does it take crower to churn one of those things out. This motor has been at the shop for almost three months and the assembly hasnt even started yet? I'm starting to lose my mind!!!!

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #36 by Ramian17 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:04 pm

Have you used a 202/202 114° on any applications?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #37 by pmuller9 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:18 pm

No I haven't used a 202/202, 114 yet.
It is real close to a profile that will be used for a turbocharged, liquid propane injected 300 for another board member looking for the same power band.

A 202/202 114 has 8 degrees less overlap than the 202/210 112 Crower that you have now.
That is significant when you are looking for low rpm performance versus high rpm where 8 degrees of crank rotation goes by very quickly.
Port velocities are also slow at low rpm and can be easily effected unlike the high port velocities at the upper rpms.

Crower has pretty good turn around time.
They will let you know when you call them.
We needed a custom billet steel cam for one of our supercharged V8s for a race that was coming up.
Called them on Monday, cam was sitting in our shop that Friday.

I get that you are getting anxious.
What I see is a project with a lot of time and planning to get it right that should not be compromised over a cam profile.
Just my opinion.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #38 by Ramian17 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:25 am

Yeah I agree with it all. I'll go tell him tomorrow. Wow there's another guy on here looking for lots of power with RPMs as low as mine? What is his application? Should I go with those numbers or do you have a favorite cam for things like this lol. I honestly dont know what I need and will tell the mechanic any numbers you tell me to tell him.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #39 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:42 am

202 duration numbers or close to that will work.
The cam for the turbo propane engine was 204/204, 114 LSA
The 114* LSA is what is important.
Valve lift anywhere around .450" is also good and will allow the use of the stock rockers.

Where did you get the original specs that you posted?
112*/112*, .447"/.447", 114 LSA

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #40 by Ramian17 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:07 pm

I'm pretty sure off of this forum. I'll have to check

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #41 by Ramian17 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:16 pm

Went and told him 202/202 114° . So which turbo lol

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #42 by Ramian17 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:18 pm

What RPM did you run to on that turbo propane set up?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #43 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:17 pm

Ramian17 wrote:Went and told him 202/202 114° . So which turbo lol


Garrett or Borg Warner?
You mentioned that your machinist prefers BW.
The new Garrett are less money.
Either one will do the job.

The propane engine is in the makings but a good wideband turbo will push 5000 rpm even if full boost is at 2000 rpm.
What is unknown is if the Turbine housing A/R is .64 for low rpm boost will the engine choke before 5000 rpm.

Conversely if the A/R is .84 can it make big boost at 1500 rpm.
The 300 six is a fairly big engine and I think there should be enough exhaust volume to work both ends with an .84
Turbine housings can be changed if the results need fine tuning.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #44 by Ramian17 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:06 pm

Yeah he liked the BW turbos probably im going to go with them? Personally I have no idea on the housing AR? Wow it can be changed without replacing everything? That's nice. No joke I'm not going to push this motor past 3000Rpm. I drove it all day no higher than 2500 only went to 3000rpm when passing or racing lol. Everyone laughs and says I will take it to 5000rpm now that I can. I always could but that's just plane scary. Going to 3000rpm in third or second gear is flying in the old girl. 75mph third gear 55mph second gear she's geared pretty high in my opinion. I just want her to have more pedal/power at 2500. Basically in third gear going down the highway. And also boost before 1500RPM I think is a good idea. It had loads of torque by 1250rpm and even 1000rpm honestly it was in a strong power band by then. Either way I'm going to go with your opinion on the turbo. Thanks again for your help. I was just curious what is your back ground with turbos and these motors how do you know so much!?!?!

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #45 by pmuller9 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:34 pm

Ramian17 wrote:Yeah he liked the BW turbos probably im going to go with them? Personally I have no idea on the housing AR? Wow it can be changed without replacing everything? That's nice. No joke I'm not going to push this motor past 3000Rpm. I drove it all day no higher than 2500 only went to 3000rpm when passing or racing lol. Everyone laughs and says I will take it to 5000rpm now that I can. I always could but that's just plane scary. Going to 3000rpm in third or second gear is flying in the old girl. 75mph third gear 55mph second gear she's geared pretty high in my opinion. I just want her to have more pedal/power at 2500. Basically in third gear going down the highway. And also boost before 1500RPM I think is a good idea. It had loads of torque by 1250rpm and even 1000rpm honestly it was in a strong power band by then. Either way I'm going to go with your opinion on the turbo. Thanks again for your help. I was just curious what is your back ground with turbos and these motors how do you know so much!?!?!


Well that makes turbo choice easy.
The Borg Warner EFR 6258-A
It is their 49mm ball bearing turbo with a .64 A/R turbine housing.
It is also their smallest turbo in the EFR series but it will still support 350 hp at 15 lbs of boost.

I have experience with 2000+ hp twin turbo engines in NHRA Top sportsman and 10.5" tire outlaw classes.
Also 2000 hp multi stage nitrous engine and presently Vintage 7 liter blown alky Hydroplane.

I took on the 300 six because i always liked the inline six and I love to see sixes kick V8 butt.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #46 by Ramian17 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:01 am

Haha I like your confidence. I just googled that turbo it looks super awesome and amazingly clean. I love it. I am also a little worried about such a tiny one. It looks like it is mostly put on 2.5 to 3 liter engines. Can you change the housing very cheaply? In doing so allowing it to breath better if it chokes out?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #47 by Ramian17 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:03 am

How confident are you one the .64 over the. 84? You changed because of the sorry low rpm?

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #48 by pmuller9 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:37 am

The turbo size has to do with engine airflow.
A 3L engine at 6000 rpm with good breathing heads will outflow a Ford 300 six (4.9L) at 4000 rpm with very bad breathing heads.

Yes The .64 A/R is because of the low rpm you want to have boost available.
There should be no chance of choking the engine if you don't care to run the engine much above 3000 rpm.

The BW EFR turbo has internal wastegate and internal bypass valve which means you won't have to purchase an external wastegate or a blowoff valve.

Jegs has the best price and the 126 page instructions is also there if you would like to take the time to read through it.
Click detail on the product page, then click on the instruction tab.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #49 by Ramian17 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:05 am

Awesome he's going to port and polish the head so hopefully it flows super good. Yeah 3000 in the old girl is all we need. I need way more power and torque below that rpm. How much power you think this motor will have at 2500 if she is making 10-15psi? And yeah it is super handy about the waste gate and blow off valve.

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Re: Turbo 240 or 300

Post #50 by pmuller9 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:10 am

If the head will flow enough to get the engine volumetric efficiency up around 80% then it should make about 430 ft lbs with 10 lbs and 500 ft lbs with 15 lbs @ 2500 rpm.
That would be 205 and 240 hp @ 2500 rpm respectively.
Disclaimer: Your actual results may vary. LOL

The EFR 6258 supposedly comes with the 179283 canister that controls the waste gate between 12 - 18 lbs of boost which would be too high.
The 179282 canister controls up to 10 psi by itself and can be controlled between 10 - 15 psi by using a controlled spill valve.

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