Bit of guidance.

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psa1sonic
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Bit of guidance.

Post #1 by psa1sonic » Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:58 pm

So I have access to a engine dyno. It’s for much larger diesel motors. Like 47l cats.It’s a hydraulic style.
So. As I really have not done gassers. Mostly diesel.
I have asked before but I don’t think I was clear enough.
I have around 2500$ to spend.
What I would like is a reliable alternative to a new f150. The new 3.5l is 365 horsepower and 450 lb-ft of torque roughly. But I have $15k total for new interior body ect ect. The transmission is a e40d with all the upgrades better clutch packs cryogenic treated everything so it should hold 500ftlbs easy. The rear end is gonna be a posi loc have not decided on the gear ratios but it’s been cryogenic and better splines bearings.


Yes yes I could take my 15k and put a down on a new pickup. But I just got done putting in a dyno mat like material. And the cab is so quiet.
But I have a spare motor I like to get comparable to the 3.5l.
I’m definitely gonna have to go turbo Maby twin turbo, twin scroll, or twin scroll twins.
Of course a lot will have to be changed cams pistons machine work ect ect.
So far I know I am going to turbo charge run ms3
What order should this be done ms, then machine work, cam, turbos, injection system then tuning ect ect.
I have a good machine shop that owes me a few favors.
I have never been this extensively in a gas motor before. And I would prefer not to snap cranks or punch holes in blocks.

So I move this here and I guess I forgot to include. The truck is a 92 efi f150 dead stock motor trans and suspension are updated and upgraded rear diff is upgraded to posi lock with 3.55. The spare motor is out of a 1996 f250.
I currently have the spare on a stand plumbed up to run. But it’s all stock ecu. Ms is being assembled currently.

Wesman07
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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #2 by Wesman07 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:12 pm

Scroll down about three threads on this forum. There is an engine build that is very well done. Should be putting out about 500 lbs.
In-lines we trust

86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

pmuller9
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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #3 by pmuller9 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:39 pm

psa1sonic
As you mentioned, you should get the MS3 working on the spare engine first.
The cylinder head needs to completed next as it determines a lot of factors on the rest of the build.

As you know the 1996 is the only 4.9 that has sequential injection and three O2 sensors so the wire harness and ECM connector is different than the 1992 harness and connector.
What are your plans for connecting the MS3 to the wire harness?

The stock EFI intake manifold offers great low end torque so I would use it as is by plumbing the turbocharger outlet from the intercooler into the stock throttle bodies.
The fuel injector size depends on how much horsepower the engine will be making.

You only need a single turbocharger to get the power needed.
You mentioned a possible goal of 365 horsepower and 450 lb-ft of torque comparable to the 3.5?
450 lb-ft of torque can be done at low rpm without much head work but 365 HP requires the head to flow better at higher rpm.
The EFI head has shrouded valves to create swirl so the chambers need to be opened up to unshroud the valves especially if larger valve are installed.
viewtopic.php?p=599379#p599379

Are you handy with a long nose die grinder?

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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #4 by psa1sonic » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:27 pm

pmuller9 wrote:psa1sonic
As you mentioned, you should get the MS3 working on the spare engine first.
The cylinder head needs to completed next as it determines a lot of factors on the rest of the build.

As you know the 1996 is the only 4.9 that has sequential injection and three O2 sensors so the wire harness and ECM connector is different than the 1992 harness and connector.
What are your plans for connecting the MS3 to the wire harness?

The stock EFI intake manifold offers great low end torque so I would use it as is by plumbing the turbocharger outlet from the intercooler into the stock throttle bodies.
The fuel injector size depends on how much horsepower the engine will be making.

You only need a single turbocharger to get the power needed.
You mentioned a possible goal of 365 horsepower and 450 lb-ft of torque comparable to the 3.5?
450 lb-ft of torque can be done at low rpm without much head work but 365 HP requires the head to flow better at higher rpm.
The EFI head has shrouded valves to create swirl so the chambers need to be opened up to unshroud the valves especially if larger valve are installed.
viewtopic.php?p=599379#p599379

Are you handy with a long nose die grinder?

pmuller9
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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #5 by pmuller9 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:01 am

I was looking forward to your next post but there isn't much information there. :lol:
What happen?

psa1sonic
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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #6 by psa1sonic » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:22 am

pmuller9 wrote:I was looking forward to your next post but there isn't much information there. :lol:
What happen?

Idk I just re read it and wow. I don’t know how I did that. No posting after 48 hr shifts.

psa1sonic
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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #7 by psa1sonic » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:35 pm

Ms3 is running. Currently motor is on a stand with E4OD transmission output is hooked to a hydraulic pump so we can calculate the kw. And use that to make adjustments.
I have a junk block with head in vehicle so I can fab up intake and exhaust. I got them in cad atm and waiting my turn on the 5 axis. To cut certain parts and then start the tedious process of using heat, sand and a pipe blender to make nice rams horns. Turbo is going to be either a external waste t3t4 hybrid from a turbo coupe. Or if I can get the maths right a gt378v off a 6.0 and vgt “because why not”.
Yes I’m fairly decent with a long nose die grinding.

I currently have the truck in about a thousand parts body and frame are at the soda blasting and prime. Thankful no Swiss cheese as someone in my family has always owned this truck since it was bought new.

But on the wire side I’m not running the stock ecu I’ll write more later

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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #8 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:31 pm

Say "NO" to a T3 turbine inlet flange and housing.
If you want to make horsepower, the small inlet and housing will choke the engine with high backpressure at the upper end of the power band.

The 2003-2005 GT3782va turbo has a 59 mm compressor inducer which will be a good match for the 4.9 six providing the head is ported for the flow.
I believe the 2005 1/2 to 2007 had a inducer reduction down to 56 mm.
The VGT is a nice feature. It allows a large 1.12 A/R turbine exhaust housing so the is very low backpressure at higher rpm and the vanes can be redirected for spooling at low rpm.

With a big valve, full port head the turbo will easily make over 500 lb-ft of torque and over 400 hp at only 15 lbs of boost.

Obviously stock rods and pistons are not in this mix.
The recommended rod is the "H" beam BBC small journal 6.385" rod.
The big end width is the same as the 300 six and it uses the 2.100" SBC rod bearings.
The small end uses the BBC .990" piston pin.

Here is where there is some urgency.
Eagle and K1 no longer make this rod which put the burden of supply on Molnar and Compstar.
Molnar and all associated dealers are out with a six week lead time till Molar recieves the next batch of unfinished blanks.
Earlier this week Compstar was down to 2 sets. I called several dealers and again no inventory.

Molnar CH6385NTB8-A
Compstar CSB6385DS3B9AH

psa1sonic
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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #9 by psa1sonic » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:33 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Say "NO" to a T3 turbine inlet flange and housing.
If you want to make horsepower, the small inlet and housing will choke the engine with high backpressure at the upper end of the power band.

The 2003-2005 GT3782va turbo has a 59 mm compressor inducer which will be a good match for the 4.9 six providing the head is ported for the flow.
I believe the 2005 1/2 to 2007 had a inducer reduction down to 56 mm.
The VGT is a nice feature. It allows a large 1.12 A/R turbine exhaust housing so the is very low backpressure at higher rpm and the vanes can be redirected for spooling at low rpm.

With a big valve, full port head the turbo will easily make over 500 lb-ft of torque and over 400 hp at only 15 lbs of boost.

Obviously stock rods and pistons are not in this mix.
The recommended rod is the "H" beam BBC small journal 6.385" rod.
The big end width is the same as the 300 six and it uses the 2.100" SBC rod bearings.
The small end uses the BBC .990" piston pin.

Here is where there is some urgency.
Eagle and K1 no longer make this rod which put the burden of supply on Molnar and Compstar.
Molnar and all associated dealers are out with a six week lead time till Molar recieves the next batch of unfinished blanks.
Earlier this week Compstar was down to 2 sets. I called several dealers and again no inventory.

Molnar CH6385NTB8-A
Compstar CSB6385DS3B9AH

Yes I figure the t3 would be restricted so I would run two so my top end is less problem matic. My rods are going to be my weekness I had sent them to be cryogenic treated, je made some aluminum pistons for me. I’m still at std displacement. After the block was hot tanked and debured the deck is straight ect made a aluminum block skirt for strength and my oil pan is good but I wanna fine tune it.

Atm I am dead in the water because my foward planet splined out, so now I’m hunting for 4r100 cores and Steel six pinion gear planets. But I got alto reds and kolen steel with a tugger kit. Sonnex has a nice seal kit with lathe cut seals. The tq is at a local rebuild shop getting bump in stall speed and triple lockup clutch kit.
So now I’m just doing body repair work and interior sound matting sent seats to be re apoulstered and I re dyed my carpet. Got the dash out to fix my hvac leaking. Stereo system is now blue tooth and hands free. Got a decent set of speakers nice 4 channel amp. My door panels are being repaired and re colored.
Yes Chris nice I’ll write more later.

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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #10 by pmuller9 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:00 pm

What are your plans for cam specs?

psa1sonic
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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #11 by psa1sonic » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:12 am

pmuller9 wrote:What are your plans for cam specs?



Stock atm. Cams are jibberish to me.
I can design one in cad throw a blank in and cut it.
Yes I know the basic theory. Lift, duration, lobe separation ect. But as how a .245 life with a .301 big valve is better than a .345 lift with a .214 valve ect ect. Those numbers are made up off the top of my head btw.
I have read about what and how it doesn’t translate in my head.

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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #12 by pmuller9 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:09 pm

If you decide to run twin turbochargers, they each need to have a 40 – 42mm compressor inducer size.
This again is assuming a big valve, fully ported head.
As you stated, twin turbos can have a T3 exhaust flange and smaller turbine housing.

Did the rods get polished beams and shot-peened before going for cryogenic treatment?

You asked about the order of work and components early on.
The head gets finished first so the combustion chamber volume is known.
The initial machining on the block can be started.
Then the cam specs are selected next because the intake valve closing point determines the Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) based on the Static Compression Ratio (SCR).
Once the SCR is determined along with the cylinder overbore and piston CD, then the pistons can be ordered with the correct dish volume.

Based on the many builds reported on site, the Ford 300 runs best with a DCR range from 7.0 to 7.5 on pump gas octane from 87 to 93.
The DCR for the 300 six is calculated using the advertised duration intake valve closing point ABDC and is simply a reference number that indicates the maximum compression before detonation occurs on a naturally aspirated 300 six.

Example:
Here is a midrange turbocharger cam for the 300 six.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qufkzkwyxoz8o ... .jpg?raw=1
The advertised intake duration is the same as the stock cam at 268 degrees and with the intake lobe center at 110 degrees ATDC the intake valve closes 64 degrees ABDC.
With an air to air intercooler and boost at least in the 15 to 20 psi range it would be good to drop the DCR by ½ point to account for the additional heat.
A finished EFI head that has been completely un-shrouded for large valves has a chamber volume near 75cc.

Using a lowered DCR of 6.6 and grinding all the numbers through a SCR/DCR calculator shows an SCR of 8.2 with a piston dish volume of 30cc set at zero block deck height.
If you use a 300 carburetor head that finishes out to a 80cc chamber the piston dish will need 25cc for the same compression ratio.
If you are pushing for a higher rpm, higher HP power band, then the cam can have a longer intake/exhaust duration along with a higher cylinder compression ratio.
This is what the planning process looks like.
We can discuss the rest of the camshaft parameters later.

What is the dish volume and piston pin height in the JE pistons?
Do the pistons have an accumulator groove between the first and second ring?

psa1sonic
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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #13 by psa1sonic » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:56 pm

pmuller9 wrote:If you decide to run twin turbochargers, they each need to have a 40 – 42mm compressor inducer size.
This again is assuming a big valve, fully ported head.
As you stated, twin turbos can have a T3 exhaust flange and smaller turbine housing.

Did the rods get polished beams and shot-peened before going for cryogenic treatment?



You asked about the order of work and components early on.
The head gets finished first so the combustion chamber volume is known.
The initial machining on the block can be started.
Then the cam specs are selected next because the intake valve closing point determines the Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) based on the Static Compression Ratio (SCR).
Once the SCR is determined along with the cylinder overbore and piston CD, then the pistons can be ordered with the correct dish volume.

Based on the many builds reported on site, the Ford 300 runs best with a DCR range from 7.0 to 7.5 on pump gas octane from 87 to 93.
The DCR for the 300 six is calculated using the advertised duration intake valve closing point ABDC and is simply a reference number that indicates the maximum compression before detonation occurs on a naturally aspirated 300 six.

Example:
Here is a midrange turbocharger cam for the 300 six.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qufkzkwyxoz8o ... .jpg?raw=1
The advertised intake duration is the same as the stock cam at 268 degrees and with the intake lobe center at 110 degrees ATDC the intake valve closes 64 degrees ABDC.
With an air to air intercooler and boost at least in the 15 to 20 psi range it would be good to drop the DCR by ½ point to account for the additional heat.
A finished EFI head that has been completely un-shrouded for large valves has a chamber volume near 75cc.

Using a lowered DCR of 6.6 and grinding all the numbers through a SCR/DCR calculator shows an SCR of 8.2 with a piston dish volume of 30cc set at zero block deck height.
If you use a 300 carburetor head that finishes out to a 80cc chamber the piston dish will need 25cc for the same compression ratio.
If you are pushing for a higher rpm, higher HP power band, then the cam can have a longer intake/exhaust duration along with a higher cylinder compression ratio.
This is what the planning process looks like.
We can discuss the rest of the camshaft parameters later.

What is the dish volume and piston pin height in the JE pistons?
Do the pistons have an accumulator groove between the first and second ring?


I am not sure what pistons. My friend who a builder order them. I am asking as his explanation is lackluster.
So far nothing internal has been done. Other that steel cam gear and high volume oil pump. The goal is to get ms working on a E4OD and the motor no need for stock ecu.
But the planet has splined out.
The cryogenic treated stuff was yes polished and shot. Its in the build up motor that’s going to take the place of the original motor.
Sry I re read my original message and I confused myself. But I have the original motor and trans on a stand rotating a hydraulic pump. As a informal dyno. The motor being built is out of a 96. It’s getting all of the upgrades. Right now it’s bare block and stripped down head. I am hand porting the heads. I am shooting for 66cc chamber volume, I asked and the pistons have a 22cc dish. I should have a cr of 7.8. Idk if that’s the right numbers for the math. The builder is good at what he does. We just have a bit of a language barrier. So I’m trying to comprehend what he is explaining. Technical engineering in German does not translate to southern English tex-mex very well. So far we have worked out a series of grunts and head nods, intermittent obscene hand gestures. For communication. He’s also like 86 so I am more his hands.
But the motor is going to be assembled with all the new internals. And big valve head I’ll try and trans late his specs later. But the boxes say vauxhaull. For the valves, seats and valve springs. And roller rockers. But it’s metric so idk exactly what he’s planning. Still a flat tappet cam.

pmuller9
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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #14 by pmuller9 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:17 pm

A 66 cc chamber with a 22 cc piston dish will be anywhere from a 9 to 9.4 compression ratio depending if the piston is .025" down in the cylinder at TDC or right at zero deck height.
That is way too high for a turbocharger application with pump gas.
It needs to be 1 point lower in the 8 to 8.4 range.

With the EFI head you should be shooting for 75cc after chamber walls have been ground back to unshroud the valves.
Here is what they need to look like when you are done.
viewtopic.php?p=599338#p599338

Where do you live? Are you here in the states?

psa1sonic
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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #15 by psa1sonic » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:32 pm

pmuller9 wrote:A 66 cc chamber with a 22 cc piston dish will be anywhere from a 9 to 9.4 compression ratio depending if the piston is .025" down in the cylinder at TDC or right at zero deck height.
That is way too high for a turbocharger application with pump gas.
It needs to be 1 point lower in the 8 to 8.4 range.

With the EFI head you should be shooting for 75cc after chamber walls have been ground back to unshroud the valves.
Here is what they need to look like when you are done.
viewtopic.php?p=599338#p599338

Where do you live? Are you here in the states?

Yes I’m in San Antonio TX. and it’s 76 cc on the head technically 75.765 # 1 75.689 #2 75.766#3 75.786 #4 75.676#5 75.764#6
They have a valve seat cutter/remover. So it’s getting new seats. The top we have not got to far into other than port matching except we’re the intake and exhaust share a wall just polish it up the about 10-15 mm from the top of the valve opening he’s having me make like tiny channels and bumps. He said it to make the air and fuel molecules mix better. I’ll try get pictures next time I am there. He’s a big no cell phone person.

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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #16 by bubba22349 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:02 pm

HI psa1sonic, just curious how your 300 engine build is coming? :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Bit of guidance.

Post #17 by sdiesel » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:29 pm

me too I'm curious how this is progressing
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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