F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

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motorsickle1130
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F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #1 by motorsickle1130 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:52 am

Hello all. I've been thinking about a 300 build for a number of years, and just recently came into a 1978 f-250 4x4 supercab with Dana 60s front and rear. Truck is currently a mild 429, C6, with an NP205. Gears are 4.10s, rolling on 35s.
Donor is a 300, T18, with an NP 208 out of an ?1982 Bronco? Will most likely keep 205 in the truck, better ratio (1.96) and sturdier. Will be using the T18 for sure.

I've decided on an intercooled, blow through set up. Picked up an SA design book on Turbos, and have started working up some numbers.

Target: 8lbs boost, 10lbs max. wastegated for sure
Daily driveability, occasional towing/hauling. NO EFI, ECM, or the like to be installed. I will run guages, but will be sticking with analog wherever possible. Will most likely dyno for fine tuning.

I have a turbo that may or may not work. It's a T3 housing, garrett, off a ?VG30DET? (Nissan 300ZX) in need of a rebuild. I plan on running a larger inducer diameter, smaller exducer diameter, to keep the power band down lower; like in a diesel. I haven't crunched the numbers yet on specific diameters/trim.
Based on 8-10lbs, the math suggests 1500rpm to 4500rpm is a safe bet, though the efficiency could be a little better, but I am on a bit of a budget.
I have a machinist who's on board with a rebuild. Motor will be opened up, though the focus is on longevity. Still need to make a complete plan with him, and strip the motor down before purchasing parts.

QUESTIONS:
#1) Am I correct in wanting to use a smaller T3 for driveability/longevity, as opposed to what looks like a T4 most of the other posters on this forum are running?
#1b) If needing a different turbo housing, what do you think the best option is and why?
#2) At 8-10lbs boost, would stock grind cam w/ 1.7 rockers put out better low end torque, or bump up to a 252 cam? Goal is 400 ft lbs at crank (and hopefully? 15-20mpg). (it seems rediculous seeing it in writing, lol)

Thanks for whatever you have to offer, and I hope to be able give back what I hope to get out of the forum. :beer:

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #2 by Phase3 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:18 am

Not very familiar with that turbo but im using a t3 flanged he351cw holset on a efi headed motor and i have great low end results. Actually that was the area i was targeting as im developing a build that will eventually be in my 1996 1 ton crew cab long bed and i need all the low end i can find to pull out near 7k lbs unloaded. Also my results at 13 lbs of boost on pump gas was over 500 ftlbs at the tire and on the road i can achieve full boost at 1800 rpm. I can tell you that over 1500 rpm i can climb any hill around here in 5th gear. Thats in my half ton 4x4 right now but have no doubts it will pull around the 1 ton. The carb would be the biggest difference for me. Also i did advance the cam timing for additional low end. In my experience, if your looking for low end, the t3 will work just fine till about 4000 rpm. Now the other turbo specs may come into play as well such as turbine housing volume and wheel sizes and pitches.
1996 f150 turbo 4.9 OBD2 M5OD 4x4 12 lbs on 93
1997 f350 351w cclb- sacrificed power but saving the butterflies

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #3 by motorsickle1130 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:50 am

Right on, much appreciated.
Here’s a picture of my rig. It’s going to need plenty of help elsewhere too, hence the goal of not going broke on just the drivetrain.
I’ll be searching around soon for info, but Any suggestions on head work?
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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #4 by Phase3 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:05 pm

Very nice looking truck i love the 78s and 79s myself. Actually just found out where a 350 crew cab long bed is sitting. Havent found out what year it is yet and havent saw the front clip. Did you get that truck from south western pa? Ive seen one similar driving around in the past.
Im kind of at the head work point myself. I got arp head studs and have to order the felpro 1024 gasket. I thought i would have had problems with the stock hardware and gasket by now and then it would force me to get into the head porting and studs but so far so good.
There is alot of information about porting both carb or efi heads on the forum here including cutaways that show there isnt a ton of meat around the ports so it wouldnt be hard to blow thru. Some members here have flow numbers posted about a third higher than stock tho so there is still power to be found on these u flow designs!
1996 f150 turbo 4.9 OBD2 M5OD 4x4 12 lbs on 93
1997 f350 351w cclb- sacrificed power but saving the butterflies

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #5 by pmuller9 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:36 pm

The EFI head shrouds the intake valve in order to create swirl.
The flowbench shows restricted flow rates until the valve lifts above .350"
If you open up the chamber as shown on the right the mid lift flow picks up a lot.
The head shown below was installed on the block and the cylinder bore was scribed on the head surface.
Then the chamber walls around the spark was brought out to the scribe line.

Image

With the larger chambers you now have the option to install larger valves.
For low rpm work the Chevy 1.84"/1.60" valves are sufficient. They are 4.91" long versus 4.75" for the stock EFI valves.
The benefit of the longer Chevy valves is you are no longer restricted to (less than) .500" valve lift as with the stock EFI valves.
This way you can use a short duration cam and use the 1.73 ratio Scorpion roller rockers to get higher valve lift.

Porting can consist of just working the valve guide bosses in the bowl and cleaning up the ports.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=77808#p599298

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #6 by deere114 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:22 pm

First things first, love the truck, and the direction of your build. Most turbo builds are more oriented toward hot rod type performance. I honestly think my turbo 4.9 f150 would stomp my 460 powered tow rig on the dyno in both hp and tq. That said my 300 isn't set up for towing, and I think of it was it would be a very good option over the big block and diesels. I'm running an hx35 t3 currently, I find it to be plenty responsive under 2000 rpm. I don't think a t4 is really needed for your very mild goals. However I'd be hesitant to go too small to, with my hx35 I can drag the brakes at 2000rpm and build as much boost as I want (one of my data logs shows 15psi at 1700rpm) moving a heavier vehicle and or towing a trailer will have a similar effect. That load will help spool the turbo, and one sized too small could just be un needed for this application. I would upsize in cam if it was me. If you search around for the n/a tow builds the comp 252 and 260 as well as other similarly sized cams build great low end and midrange torque, the same will go for a turbo build. Advancing the stock cam is an option as well. You can make 400ftlbs with a stock engine and boost, anything you do to the cylinder head or slightly upsizing cam will just make it easier to hit your goal with less boost. My trucks running megasquirt efi so I can't really give any useful information on the carb aspect of your build.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #7 by motorsickle1130 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:32 am

Thanks for all the great info!

-Nope, not in PA; I’m South of Portland Oregon.
I swapped a guy for my 2005 F-250 diesel. He got it from down by the CA border. It’s got a Canadian build code. The truck is mostly free of rust, and no major cancer. I’ll post some more in the intro section.

-Thanks for the head flow info. I’m going to try to sit down with the machinist/builder this weekend, and lay out the plan.
-I was leaning heavily toward the 252, seems like a good mid range set up. I’ll probably end up dropping it in and going N/A at first while finishing up fabrication, and then try to tackle install over a long weekend.

-I’ve actually done an about face on the EFI. I’m now thinking of going with the Holley Sniper EFI. Having self learning, instead of what would probably be 2 months worth of tuning, sounds way better. The reviews are mostly positive, especially the more recent ones.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #8 by motorsickle1130 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:35 am

-Any suggestions for a good source for turbo rebuild kits?
-I know it’ll no more difficult since I’m not certain about the origin of my unit, but I do plan on stripping it down and miking everything to at least know where I’m starting.
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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #9 by pmuller9 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:39 am

What diameter is the compressor wheel's inducer and exducer?

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #10 by motorsickle1130 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:45 pm

Well, the teeth (or blades) could be in better shape, but I got 1.830" and 2.368". Puts it at 46.482mm x 60.1472mm, approx.
Straight across, equals 59.723 for trim. I'm guessing trim doesn't come in 3/4 measurements, so probably should be 46.5mm x 60???mm and 60ish trim? I'd like to bump the compressor to at least 62 trim, but maybe I should just replace the bearings and seals for now and see how it rolls?
There's a ding in one of the blades thats approx 1/32 to 1/16 deep and wide. That seems like a pretty big deal at 110,000 rpm. :oopsie:

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #11 by pmuller9 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:59 pm

A Garrett GT2860R has a 47/60 compressor wheel and is shown as a turbo for Nissans.
It also shows the turbine housing with a T25 flange.

It is small for a 300 six and the T25 turbine housing will choke the 300 early in the upper rpm range.
It would be good for very low rpm torque.

A ported head would push the turbo beyond it limits and run it into the choke zone.
You could try a stock EFI head with some intake valve unshrouding and use the stock cam with the Scorpion roller rockers to get more valve lift.
Advance the stock cam by positioning the intake lobe center at 110* ATDC.

I would expect high torque from off idle with good power to 3500 rpm.
Somewhere after that point both the small turbine housing and the drop in engine VE will kill the power.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #12 by brandoncw » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:56 am

motorsickle1130 wrote:-I’ve actually done an about face on the EFI.

Im going to guess you were in the military at some point :lol:

And as far as this build is going, i am very interested and please keep us updated thanks.
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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #13 by Wesman07 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:10 pm

I am also interested in this. I have been playing with a desktop dyno on a similar build.

Pmuller9:

I have a stock efi motor with an advanced cam and must say the dynamic compression is very high for a 5,000lb truck. Loaded at 6,000lbs I need to up the fuel octane to 89 or higher. Without a knock sensor, I would go back to the 4* retard cam setting.

Your prescription to the cost effective KB S3117H pistons on a similar build in a recent thread seems like the hot ticket.
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86 f150 300 efi with advanced stock cam. Np435, Dana 60/ 10.25, 35" BFG's, four link front suspension with 12" travel fox coil overs, custom deaver leaf pack in the rear.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #14 by Wesman07 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:13 am

Is there a rule for the relation of dynamic compression and boost?
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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #15 by pmuller9 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:23 am

Wesman07 wrote:Is there a rule for the relation of dynamic compression and boost?


It's not that simple since the intercooler efficiency is also part of the equation and the efficiency of the compressor making the boost.
Both of those contribute to the final air temps in the intake manifold.

The question becomes, How much do I need to lower the compression to decrease the cylinder temps during compression to compensate for the increased air temps coming onto the cylinder.

Then you have to consider how long the engine will be operating under boost.
Will it be for a short blast just for fun or am I hauling heavy loads for long periods of time.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #16 by Wesman07 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:43 am

Thanks for the explanation, that changes the way I have been thinking. Matchbox is extremely helpful.

So Intake temps are a factor of PV=NRT, turbine efficiency, and inter cooling. How do you figure combustion temperature?

Sorry for hijacking. That will be my last question.
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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #17 by pmuller9 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:53 pm

Wesman07 wrote: How do you figure combustion temperature?

You don't.
Autoignition for gasoline is around 500* F +/- depending on octane.
You can figure the air temps using the dynamic compression ratio but your calculations will come in high because it doesn't acount for the presents of gasoline which is a liquid that absorbs thermal energy and the effects of quench.

In general if an intercooler is being used you can drop the DCR about 1/2 a point for short term boost and up to a full point for long hauls with heavy loads.
On a 300 six where the DCR is normally 7.0 for 87 octane gas, that would be a drop to 6.5 or as low as 6.0 and that gives you room to use a higher octane pump gas if needed.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #18 by motorsickle1130 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:18 am

Don't worry about highjacking; these are all great questions and somewhat over my head, which tells me I need to do more research.

Talked to my machinist the other day; hopefully I haven't already mentioned that. Long day, already forgot half the posts. He thinks I'm nuts for wanting to ditch the 429. I'm supposed to be coming up with a parts list and something of a complete build layout. Haven't had time yet between starting a bathroom remodel and wifes pregnancy related stuff.

Still need to hit up Jobbers Services up in Portland to see if they have a decent forged crank. That's the only part I'm concerned about finding, aside from verifying that the block and head are solid.
Will also need a parts list for the drivetrain swap and will most likely rebuild everything, axles included.

Thing ran the front tank empty the other day. Pretty sure it's tuned way fat and probably only getting 6mpg at best. There's reason #1
The suspension is definately shot and the steering isn't tuned in the slightest, in addition to needing a new PS pump.
I'll try to stay on topic with Turbos next post.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #19 by Wesman07 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:41 pm

Pmuller9 is one of the best teachers I know. All of this was over my head too just a few months ago.

I’m curious about jobbers and the forged crank. I know of a big vender selling “forged” cranks, that apparently are not forged at all.
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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #20 by motorsickle1130 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 12:17 am

Hopefully this one goes through...

I’m not going to mess with the Nissan turbo, and instead will pick one up from cxracing.com
They don’t have a lot of options for compressors in their turbos, or maps, but I figure they’re close enough and in my price range.
I’m getting down to the wire on pulling the trigger on parts.

Is there an off the shelf cam combination that fits 8-15lbs of boost with 1.7:1 roller rockers?
What’s a middle of the road piston rod?
For above cam, and 2000-5000rpm range, what size turbocharger is a good fit for a 7000lb 4x4 truck on 35s with 4.10s and a Ford T18?

I’ve been going round and round on turbo sizes, and am no closer than when I started.

Oh, and here’s the interior:
AB4AD5D2-AED6-4AFF-94A1-34898F75B04F.jpeg
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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #21 by pmuller9 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:18 pm

If you want to make good power to 5000 rpm the head will need larger valves with some blending in the bowl area.
You can also do minor modifications around the valve guides in the bowl area.
SI Valves: 1.94" intake SEV-2533 and 1.60" exhaust SEV-3005.

Pull the stock rocker studs, drill and tap for 7/16" screw in studs.
I prefer to keep the rocker ratio at 1.6 so there is less pressure on the cam lobe for longevity sake.
What 1.7 ratio rockers do you have.

If you are going to use a CXRacing turbo then look at the 60mm compressor inducer size turbos.
I would also consider using a T4 instead of the T3 exhaust inlet turbine housing because of the exhaust volume of the 300.
If you were strictly looking for low end power then the T3 would be OK.
A .63 A/R Turbine housing will spool the turbo sooner

A more efficient turbo like a Borg Warner would need a 57mm compressor for the same job but they cost more.

What did you mean by "What’s a middle of the road piston rod?"

What are you going to use for an exhaust manifold for the turbo?

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #22 by Max_Effort » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:55 pm

pmuller9 wrote:The EFI head shrouds the intake valve in order to create swirl.
The flowbench shows restricted flow rates until the valve lifts above .350"
If you open up the chamber as shown on the right the mid lift flow picks up a lot.
The head shown below was installed on the block and the cylinder bore was scribed on the head surface.
Then the chamber walls around the spark was brought out to the scribe line.

Image

With the larger chambers you now have the option to install larger valves.
For low rpm work the Chevy 1.84"/1.60" valves are sufficient. They are 4.91" long versus 4.75" for the stock EFI valves.
The benefit of the longer Chevy valves is you are no longer restricted to (less than) .500" valve lift as with the stock EFI valves.
This way you can use a short duration cam and use the 1.73 ratio Scorpion roller rockers to get higher valve lift.

Porting can consist of just working the valve guide bosses in the bowl and cleaning up the ports.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=77808#p599298


Do you do all the chamber roughing by hand with carbide?

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #23 by motorsickle1130 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:00 pm

Thanks Pmuller, you’re a lifesaver.

Just got off the phone with Jobbers in Portland; they haven’t had a forged crank in a few years. He suggested scrounging in wrecking yards. :-/ oh well, I figured I’d have to anyway.

The kid at cxracing suggested a T4 T67 p-trim (?)w/ a .68 AR housing and 66.6 inducer and 84 exducer on the compressor wheel. Exhaust is 70.1 inducer, 61 exducer with a 3” vband outlet. Oil cooled only with dual ceramic ball bearings (?) and billet wheel for $540.
I’ll probably get fittings and an intercooler from them too.

I was thinking I’d build an exhaust manifold at some point, but for now will probably hunt for an HD motor to swipe crank and manifold from.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #24 by motorsickle1130 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:02 pm

1.6 ratio makes more sense, longevity wise.

For rods I just meant something that’ll hold up to boost for longevity but not force me to take out a second mortgage.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #25 by pmuller9 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:41 pm

The kid at cxracing isn't familiar with the low volumetric efficiency of the 300 six and probably used another 5.0 liter engine, possibly a V8 as a guide.
A 67mm compressor is too large and you may push it into surge if you try to make boost at a low rpm.

Here is what the 57mm looks like. See the load points on the map just off center to the right. A 60mm would center the load points nicely.
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarke ... sin=92044&

Here is what the 66mm looks like. Notice how the load points are sitting to the left side of the map near the surge zone.
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarke ... sin=92044&

Also most everyone here has been succesful getting a power band close to what you asked for using a 57 to 60 mm turbo.

I don't believe you need a forged crank.
If you want a new industrial crankshaft. We purchased one and and had it checked for trueness and it checked out great. It also appears to be cast steel.
https://www.ebay.com/p/4-9l-300-CID-For ... 1111270382

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #26 by motorsickle1130 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:23 pm

Awesome sauce!
Yeah I was thinking the same thing on the 66mm turbo. Thanks for the links.
I was starting to wonder on the necessity for forged, mostly out of not finding one and going with what’s available and easy.

I’ve seen you’re a big fan of borg Warner’s 200sx, and I’m thinking of possibly going with the bottom of the line unit (foregoing the fancy bearings), also for the sake of keeping it mostly American, but also a proven combination, with a compressor map no less!

As an aside; I was just reading through your conversation with the fella working on the bourke engine, and was able to mostly follow, but still felt kinda “special” (drooling smiley here). That’s some pretty incredible, yet moderately straight forward (physics and chemistry wise) tech.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #27 by pmuller9 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:37 pm

Borg Warner is always on the leading edge for turbo design and quality.
Off shore turbos can be hit or miss as far as getting a good unit.
If you get a good one it will ussually last if it isn't pushed very hard.

If you go back to the beginning of the thread from the Bourke engine you will see that the OP wants work with a Ford 300 six to get an incredible amount of fuel mileage.

Do you have a motorcycle?
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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #28 by pmuller9 » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:56 pm

Stevens Parts carries new 300 HD exhaust manifolds from time to time. See about halfway down the page.
http://www.stevensparts.com/FORD%20EXHA ... tm#240-300

The least expensive off the shelf "H" beam connecting rods are the
Molnar CH6385NTB8-A and the Compstar CSB6385DS3B4AH

They are BBC small journal (2.100") rods 6.385" long.
Big end width is the same as the 300 at .992"
They would require custom forged pistons

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #29 by motorsickle1130 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:21 am

Nope, 3 right now. I haven’t been riding much lately, but the only one that’s always ready to roll is my 06 Vrod. It’s needed a new clutch for about 5k miles, but only slips above 7krpm at WOT, which I hardly hit, so the new slipper clutch is still on my shelf. I’ll get to it between the dual bathroom remodel, first kid being born, and truck build. :lol:
Do you put your life in cagers hands too?

Yeah, I remember reading that hot rod article about the mid engine Frankenstein Yunick helped develop. Sounds like a great technology, but could go wrong fast. Probably not too much more complicated than a lot of the stuff already coming out of Detroit though, just substitute some old fashioned (solenoids, capacitors) for new fangled, and it’ll probably be more reliable, and just as economical.
Sounds like it’s on the back burner for him at the moment, but what an awesome hobby, if nothing else.

I’ve looked around on the turbo posts, but haven’t nailed down if there’s a decent grind cam out there for this application that’s not a custom grind.?
Also, what would you suggest for a decent, but not overly spendy piston rod?

Again, I really appreciate all the help and guidance. Not sure what I have to offer, but if you have (24v, 48v, 120/240, 277/480) electrical questions, I can probably help.
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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #30 by pmuller9 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:04 am

Nice bike!

My riding days were back in the 1970s and later.
My interest was drag racing on the street and track along with woods riding.
My last road bike was a 1977 Rickman Café chassis with a Supercharged 1000cc Kawasaki engine and my woods bike was a 1976 350 Bultaco Alpina.
I also built performance bike engines for others.

Stevens Parts carries new 300 HD exhaust manifolds from time to time. See about halfway down the page.
http://www.stevensparts.com/FORD%20EXHA ... tm#240-300

The least expensive off the shelf "H" beam connecting rods are the
Molnar CH6385NTB8-A and the Compstar CSB6385DS3B4AH

They are BBC small journal (2.100") rods 6.385" long.
Big end width is the same as the 300 at .992"
They would require custom forged pistons

The cam profile depends on what you end up doing for head work, the exhaust manifold and turbocharger.
Last edited by pmuller9 on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #31 by pmuller9 » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:09 am

Max_Effort wrote:Do you do all the chamber roughing by hand with carbide?

Yes
See post #11 thru post #15 in this thread
viewtopic.php?p=599338#p599338

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #32 by motorsickle1130 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:51 pm

Called up Stevens Parts in Texas this morning and they just happened to get a brand new batch of 300 HD exhaust manifolds in. $279 shipped, it’ll be here Friday. :D

Finishing up my material list for the motor, and tentatively planning on meeting the machinist this Thursday to go over the plan.

Also got a wild hair, and figured I’d check the bores. They’re all within .005” of 4”, probably closer to 4.003, so as long they’re no cracks, it’s a relatively virgin motor, and we can keep the bore to a minimum.

I’m also thinking about taking the truck to a mechanic outside town to get the steering dialed in the next few weeks.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #33 by pmuller9 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:24 pm

What did you decide on for connecting rods and pistons?

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #34 by motorsickle1130 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:19 pm

Probably going with Keith Black Hyperautectic (?spelling?), but I’ll see what the machinist says. I have no clue on connecting rods, and will most likely defer to the machinist.
I’ve got most everything else figured roughly, but am taking all my notes with me today, and will see what he says.

I’m also thinking of going with the Comp 252H, though still not sure as the lift is a bit less than seems right for all this effort, but the price is right and will probably be easier an the valve train in the long run.?

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #35 by pmuller9 » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:24 pm

Turbo Cam suggestion:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qufkzkwyxoz8o ... m.jpg?dl=0

The compression ratio should to be in the lower 8s
Use the KB 3117H pistons on stock rods and zero deck the block.

Grind the forging lines off the rod beams, polish the beams and have the rods shot peened.
Resize with ARP bolts.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9u6bhvzw0p5w ... 0.jpg?dl=0

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #36 by sdiesel » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:53 pm

there are no more forged cranks to be had anywhere.
jobbers only had them when evergreen aviation had a contract with the govt.
evergreen has been dead several years now.
and jobbers no longer does coreexchanges.
ur last hope is an airport tugger tractor with a 300.
but tearing one apart for the engine seems a shame.
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #37 by guhfluh » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:16 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Turbo Cam suggestion:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qufkzkwyxoz8o ... m.jpg?dl=0

I may have asked before, but I do not understand Crower's calculations on their cam cards at all. Does this cam have any overlap at .050" tappet or not? The use of a minus symbol and using ATDC vs BTDC throws me off and doesn't ever add up to their claimed duration. Even with their cams that act like there is huge duration and overlap compared to others, they show similar card figures that are hard to believe.
1967 F-250 Crew Cab 2wd, 300 6cyl, T-170/RTS/TOD 4-speed overdrive
240 head, Offy C, EFI exhaust manifolds, Comp 268H, mandrel 2.5-3" exhaust, Edelbrock 500, Pertronix ignitor and coil, recurved dizzy. 200whp/300wtq

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #38 by pmuller9 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:16 pm

guhfluh wrote:
pmuller9 wrote:Turbo Cam suggestion:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qufkzkwyxoz8o ... m.jpg?dl=0

I may have asked before, but I do not understand Crower's calculations on their cam cards at all. Does this cam have any overlap at .050" tappet or not? The use of a minus symbol and using ATDC vs BTDC throws me off and doesn't ever add up to their claimed duration. Even with their cams that act like there is huge duration and overlap compared to others, they show similar card figures that are hard to believe.


To use the minus sign and also state ATDC for the intake or BTDC for the exhaust is like speaking with a double negative and can cause confusion.
However it is used to give you the correct duration if you use the timing points with the minus sign in place.

Example:
For the .050" intake duration. -5 +180 + 35 = 210*
Exhaust .050" duration -18 + 180 + 38 = 200*

When you calculate the lobe centers you always invert the signs if you are looking at the distance from TDC.
Intake lobe center 210*/2 + 5 = 110* ATDC
Exhaust lobe center 200*/2 + 18 = 118* BTDC

Lobe Separation Angle (110* + 118*)/2 = 114*

Overlap = (Intake duration + exhaust duration)/2 - (LSA x 2) = (210 + 200)/2 - (114 x 2) = 205 - 228 = - 23*
A negative number means there is no overlap. In this case there is no overlap by 23*

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #39 by motorsickle1130 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:05 am

Sorry, been busy with the house and changing jobs. Tearing out half of my plumbing waste lines today, but couldn't sleep so I've got a few minutes. :thumbup: Waiting for the "home store" to open up so I can make one more (but probably not) parts run before ripping and tearing.

After talking with the machinist:

-He's not keen on using the KB pistons because they're cast; He's wanting to use Forged, which works for me, especially if we can re-use stock rods and just clean them up/shot peen.

-Gotta get a cam figured and he strongly suggested looking into a complete roller set up; which I'm not too keen on after seeing the prices. It did have me wondering if it'd be possible to steal roller lifters out of something else used for cheaper, but I'm not sure I want to invest that much time into modifications. Maybe for another build if I decide to go "Full Race" or return to N/A and attempt to keep some higher power numbers. Again, with my fairly modest goals, a mild (turbo) build will get us there.
I like Pmullers cam suggestion and it seems like it would still work well even if I loose boost for one reason or another.

-He asked me to look into stroking the 300 (though it's technically a stroked 240, if I understand most explanations), which again looks like a labor intensive and costly process for only 20-40cu in gained. Maybe cool for another build if I did most of the work/labor.

-I'm also supposed to be reading up on Quench, which has only been cursory at this point. I just need to make a little time for it, and find some more in depth explanations.

-He is absolutely opposed to using a High Volume oil pump, and instead wants to modify the stock (or rebuilt) pump to make it high pressure. He was concerned about possibly having too much oil leave the pan and end up with a (not the good kind) dry sump. I haven't given it much thought, but it's left me wondering about making a larger capacity pan out of the current one (which already has a few wrinkles in the bottom from laying in a junk yard), and going with the Melling high volume (25%ish over stock) and beefing up the internals for high pressure. I'm not entirely sure what to expect for oil usage from the turbo, and would rather have to restrict the incoming oil than not have enough.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #40 by motorsickle1130 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:21 am

This also has me wondering about distributors:

The one in the truck (429) is off the original 400, and looks like an early HEI unit that is still running an external coil, that's pretty sad looking.
I was thinking I would just go with a Pertronix Flamethrower II kit for the six, as it looked like the distributor still had points in it. I'll check that in a bit when I go out to the shop. The Holley fuel injection should be able to work with that.

I'm probably going to order the EFI equipment soon, and start retro fitting everything for the fuel system, which I could do fairly easily since it's dual tanks. Probably just switch to the rear tank, drop the front to do the in-tank pick up, and then rig the rear tank to feed the front so I don't need an additional fuel pump.
I'll probably install the fuel injection on the 429 for now as well. Might get 10 mpg if I'm lucky. :arg:

I'm going to try and address the steering and suspension issues soon too, and I've got and SAdesigns 4x4 book coming in the mail to help with my comprehension.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #41 by pmuller9 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:56 am

Is the 300 a 1982 engine?
If so the distributor doesn't have points unless someone changed distributor.
If the distributor has a vacuum advance canister it should be a Duraspark 2 that uses 6 reluctors and a pickup coil.

Which Holley EFI system are you lookind at using?

The stock crank is cast iron so the only way to stroke it is to use a different connecting rod with a smaller rod journal and offset grind the crank rod journal which weakens the crank.
The extra few cubes doesn't do anything for the performance of a 300 six since the bottleneck for power is the cylinder head.

Since there aren't any "Off the shelf" forged 300 pistons, is your machinist lookins at custom pistons?
The only other option is to bush the stock rods for either Chevy or Ford V8 pistons.

In either case the cylinder head needs to be completed first so you know what the finished combustion chamber volume is.
You will need that piece of info first so you can calculate the piston dish volume to get the correct compression ratio.

If you use ARP studs for the main caps the oil pump will need a spacer under it so the pump body clears the top of the stud and nut.
On the last engine I ground the stud even with the top of the nut but the clearance is with the side of the nut.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zt7gze7xqc447 ... e.jpg?dl=0

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #42 by bubba22349 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:40 am

motorsickle1130 wrote:
After talking with the machinist:

-Gotta get a cam figured and he strongly suggested looking into a complete roller set up; which I'm not too keen on after seeing the prices. It did have me wondering if it'd be possible to steal roller lifters out of something else used for cheaper, but I'm not sure I want to invest that much time into modifications. Maybe for another build if I decide to go "Full Race" or return to N/A and attempt to keep some higher power numbers. Again, with my fairly modest goals, a mild (turbo) build will get us there.
I like Pmullers cam suggestion and it seems like it would still work well even if I loose boost for one reason or another.


Just for your references the Roller Lifters made for a 429 / 460 can be used in the 240 / 300 short block. Good luck on your build :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #43 by pmuller9 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:48 pm

bubba22349 wrote:Just for your references the Roller Lifters made for a 429 / 460 can be used in the 240 / 300 short block. Good luck on your build :thumbup: :nod:


Ford 460 OEM lifters have alignment hardware that does not fit in the 300 six lifter gallery behind the side cover.
You need the aftermarket retro-fit lifters that use side bars.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #44 by motorsickle1130 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:40 am

Yes '82 300 engine. Looks like I'll just need a new cap (has a hole), clean up the guts, solid state kit, and new gear; should be good to go.
That reminds me: I still need to try and find some casting "stamps" on the engine.

Holley Sniper EFI.
Will most likely run me between $1600 and $2000 when that system is all said and done. Throttle body, in tank fuel pump, and high flow in line filter already total $1350 from Summit. Also doing new hard lines, will need a tubing bender, flare tool, fittings, flexible line, etc.
{ouch, just looking at the total dollar figure makes me feel non-commital. I could set up a Holley 750, with a stand alone O2 sensor, and all new lines for less than half that}

I'd read about the offset grind on the crank for stroking, which is a no go for me, in addition to the clearancing required.

He had mentioned using chevy pistons, since they'll be easier to come by, and he may already have a set. He had also talked about chevy rods being an option if I wanted, but I'll stick with the stock rods and bush them.

For the head, I've been tasked with finding a similar year that's junk so we can cut it apart and see what we've got to work with for extra material.

Thanks for the heads up on the oil pump. How thick of a spacer or we talking? something like .050 or more like .500?

I saw some of the threads on 385 series roller lifters, and it seems like it would be a good use of money if I were planning a more radical build, but I just can't justify the extra cost or time it would take to make it work. I'll stick with a standard hydralic flat tappet on this one.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #45 by sdiesel » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:31 pm

I've given too much time thinking about dual tank one pick up syste.
in the end one tank one pick up is the logical soluion.
here is why I say that.
what u gonna do about return fuel?
in one tank, when both are full risks overfilling.
blocK off a tank, takes forever to fill both.
what about venting?
it just never made sense to me .

in the end rip out the saddle tank have a big tank built to fit between frame rails.
with a 3 inch fI'll tu be to rear tank , you might have what u want....

HIGH VOLUME PUMPS
why do we even need them?
what part of the engine has been so drastically modified or what service will the engine see that is so far out of factory design spec. that higher volume is needed?
a long love affair with the 300 six.
my lastest and final fling is a fresh 300 in an 88 ford f350 dually 4X flatbed

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #46 by pmuller9 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:13 pm

motorsickle1130 wrote:Thanks for the heads up on the oil pump. How thick of a spacer or we talking? something like .050 or more like .500?

I made a .060" aluminum spacer and still had to grind a notch in the pump housing.

If I have to do it again I will make the spacer thick enough so the oil pump housing doesn't need to be modified which means a longer hex oil pump drive shaft and modify the pickup so there is the correct clearance to the oil pan.

The Crower turbo cam I posted is designed to work with the HD log exhaust manifold.
It is the reason for the 114* LSA and shorter exhaust duration.

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Re: F-250 super cab 4x4 300 Turbo

Post #47 by motorsickle1130 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:56 pm

SDiesel-
Buxton!?
Ha, I just moved outa Hillsboro last year. I couldn't convince the wife to move outside Forest Grove or Banks so now we're down by Corvallis. It's dangerous down here.... Lotsa young ladies... Lots. :nono:

Anyway, I see what you mean by why bump the oil pump, but he's the engine builder and it's one of his rules. Doesn't hurt my feelers either way.
I also thought it would be nice to get the rear frame area back for a spare, though with 35s, I'm not sure how much room I've got....
I may just fab my own tank in the end, like you say, for simplicity and capacity.
LMC truck does have a 38 gallon retrofit for the rear. That's probably the easiest/quickest option.
I'm pretty sure the original tanks are crusty, as I replaced the inline filter at the selector, and it still flowed, but had plenty of little red crusties coming out the supply end. I may cut it apart to see how bad it is.

Pmuller-
That makes a little more sense with the cam degreeing for use with the HD, though I'm still a complete noob for most of this stuff.
If the difference for the oil pump is .060 and grinding vs pump drive shaft and pickup, I'll probably just grind it.

Also: threw some new plug wires on it yesterday, as the old ones looked like literal garbage. Threw the timing light on it too, was showing about 6* BTDC warm at idle with vac plugged. Looked into the distributor a little more, and it sounds as though the 400 distributor has the completely wrong curve for a 429, and throws in WWWAAAYYY too much advance too fast for it, which would partly explain why it runs like crapola at heavy (not full) throttle before the secondaries open. Pretty sure the carb just got thrown on there, and also wasn't properly tuned. The more I go through this truck, the more I'm disgusted with the guys I got it from. I can also tell from all the remnants of extra parts, that at some point, this truck was set up well for towing and hauling a camper. NOT NO MORE!

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