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Turbo US200 Crossflow

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gumby23
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Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #1 by gumby23 » Sun May 26, 2019 9:54 pm

I dropped a crossflow head off at the cylinder head shop for some valve and port work, I guess things are getting serious. I'd like to document the build here with hopes that you guys can help limit missteps and wasted dollars. :beer:


I currently have two 200 engines. One that I acquired a couple years ago with no real knowledge of what I bought, or plan regarding what I wanted to do with it.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=76859
And, a later shortblock with the low mount starter and big bell pattern, supposedly very low mileage. In the deal with the later shortblock I also received an aluminum crossflow head.

Image
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The second deal was really the other way around. I wanted the crossflow head, and came to the realization that the big bell block would be beneficial to the end goals. :idea:
The rough plan at this point is to tear down the forged piston 200, inventory and inspect all components, measure everything, and determine if it is feasible to put the rotating assembly into the later block. My hope is that the later block will have virgin bores, fit to open up as necessary and accommodate the forged internals.

I also purchased a turbo to hang on the side
Image
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HX52
Compressor
Inducer: 66mm
Exducer: 99mm
Turbine - Twin scroll, 16cm, T4 flange
Inducer 84mm
Exducer: 70mm

Gonna need a pretty good head and the right cam to make this turbo happy :nod:

I have done a fair bit of research concerning physically fitting the crossflow head on the US200 block. So far, I have read 328/487 pages of mike1157's Gila Monster build on Stangnet. I have also done some data mining on the AUS forums for general info and expectations. I am a chassis builder, not an engine guy. I am doing my best sponge impression, soaking up as much knowledge as I can put my eyes on.
I know that I am going about the process a bit out of order by attempting to reuse pistons spec'd by someone else for a different build, but I already have them and this snowball is gaining momentum. I am planning to get the forged 200 into position tomorrow for tear-down. Getting a handle on possible compression ratio is important right now. I am also aware that choosing a cam is going to become a very real hurdle fairly soon as the head guy will be interested in things related to such once he gets going.

Is there a cam grinder in the US that understands crossflow, or will I be strictly dealing with Crow, Camtech, or Tighe in AUS?

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #2 by pmuller9 » Mon May 27, 2019 10:03 am

Did you look at the compressor map for the HX52?
You would need to run between 4000 to 8000 rpm to stay in the center of the map.
That means good port work and big cam.

Any less than that the turbo will surge.

You need a 57 mm compressor inducer to make power between 3000 and 6000 rpm.

The HX52 is what is needed to make 600 to 700 hp on a 300 six.

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #3 by gumby23 » Mon May 27, 2019 10:28 am

pmuller9 wrote:Did you look at the compressor map for the HX52?

Good port work, big cam, and lots of RPM are all on the table for this build as well as a paired manifold to take advantage of the split scroll turbine housing.

Do you have the compressor map available to share? I have not been able to find it yet, only the PRO52 which has a different compressor wheel.

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #4 by pmuller9 » Mon May 27, 2019 10:48 am

I used the Borg Warner 66mm map as reference.

What fuel will you be using?

It will be a solid lifter cam because of the rpm.
The camshaft .050" intake duration will be in the 240s.
The lobe separation angle needs to be wide around 114 degrees.

How much valve lift will the head allow with the present set of valves?

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #5 by rocklord » Mon May 27, 2019 4:18 pm

Hopefully you've read the original article on installing an AU Crossflow head on a 200: ci/XFheadswap.html

Reading mike1157's build is also good in that he installed a turbo on his and you can get an idea on the challenges encountered.
However, he installed the crossflow head on a 250 which has a taller deck (9.469") than the 200 (7.808"); there's not as much room in
the lifter area to install roller lifters, it may be possible.

Does your head have a code between the 1st and 2nd intake port? Something like C1, C2, E1, E2, or no code?
This will give you an idea of the combustion chamber size.
Here's some information I've pulled together about Crossflow Heads:
Cast # Volume Shape
C1 47-49cc kidney
C2 41-42cc closed
D 42cc closed
E1 57cc closed (1mm larger inlet valves)
E2 50cc kidney (1mm larger inlet valves)
XD-XE alloy heads - 57cc
If the head is not off a XD-XE, it will have a letter and number marked inbetween #1 and
#2 cyl of the inlet side.. its clearly marked either C1, C1A, C2, C2A, E1, E2 or D..
If you cant see any casting codes, then it is a XD-XE head

You're going to have to purchase your cam from Australia, which is a good thing in that they know all about Crossflows and can
supply you with the cam you need.

Modern Driveline has a flywheel for the 200 big bell conversion at a decent price:
http://transmission.moderndriveline.com ... 78p459.htm

Hope this helps.
Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #6 by bubba22349 » Mon May 27, 2019 4:42 pm

To add to your choices if your current block with its rotating assembly is still in good condition you could convert it over to the big bell used on the 6 bolt 289 302 351 V8's using a block plate. One of our site members has the plans and has even made several of them. Good luck on your build :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #7 by gumby23 » Mon May 27, 2019 7:08 pm

The Xflow head swap article was one of the first bookmarks I made during my research. My head is an E1

At this point, I have no intention of attempting to install traditional linked roller lifters. I would consider the Argentinian method with guide pins, but will more likely go with a flat tappet solid lifter for simplicity.

Target fuel is 93oct pump gas. I will be fuel injected with MS or similar stand alone management.

The red/orange block that contained all the forged parts is in really good shape other than a broken ear at the bell housing mating surface. I am sure I could work around this while using an adapter to fit up the SBF bell pattern but, unless the machine shop tells me no, I would rather stick the good parts in the big bell block and eliminate that layer of adaptation.

I did get the forged engine broken down today. I found flat top pistons, an 0.085" thick copper head gasket, and lots of ARP hardware. The block and copper head gasket have been machined for an o-ring seal
Image
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The pistons measure 0.030" over and have coated skirts. The rods have been polished and fitted for floating wrist pins. They are marked C30 and look quite different from the D8 rods I pulled from the big bell block. Are these the "early" rods I have read are better, forged, units? Curiously with the level of machine work already done, and money spent, there are not ARP bolts in these rods....
Image
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The log head has been freshened as well, and this engine was never started after it was built. I need to pull the crank damper so I can remove the timing cover, double roller timing set, and camshaft.
Last edited by gumby23 on Mon May 27, 2019 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #8 by bubba22349 » Mon May 27, 2019 8:03 pm

Looks like a well built engine. Yes the C3 rods are the early forged style rods they are the very best in a stock Ford 200 rod, next step up is a set of some better aftermarket rods. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #9 by pmuller9 » Mon May 27, 2019 10:01 pm

One of the first areas of concern is the cylinder head valve length.
We ran into this problem with the CI alloy head.
In order to run above 7000 rpm, the valve springs needed for that application require a minimum installed height of 1.700" and you get a much better range of springs if the valve is long enough for a 1.800" installed spring height.
The valves in the CI alloy head were too short so custom valves form Manley were ordered.
Here is some of the discussion.
viewtopic.php?p=601450#p601450

Pete62SOHC got his turbo cam from Camtech in Australia.
If you end up with a similar profile the static compression ratio can be a conservative 9:1.

Pete also used custom valves from Manley.

Call about the cam and find out what valve springs the cam will need and then check the head to see what needs to be done to install the springs.

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #10 by gumby23 » Mon May 27, 2019 11:17 pm

Thank you all for sharing info so far!

Crossflow valve spring installed heights are typically listed at 1.820"

Playing with a static compression calculator, the engine I just disassembled looks like 7.81:1
62cc chamber log head
flat top piston 0.020" in the hole
0.085" thick copper gasket

If I run some more reasonable numbers thru, I get 9.57:1
57cc chamber crossflow head
flat top piston @ zero deck
0.041" gasket

Deshrouding valves will add chamber volume, cutting the head will lower it. Basically with finding flat top pistons in this engine, and having uncut deck and head surfaces to work with, I can go pretty easily anywhere between 9 and 11:1

Calling about a cam is going to be pretty high on the list now, yes. I appreciate the guidance pmuller. Pete's Intech is very inspirational! You seem well read on the subject, and local to me. Could you recommend a machine shop that would tackle the bore/hone/deck on my block and not be scared off by the mods done to widen the head gasket surface? Also installing ARP bolts and resizing the big end of the rods.
:beer:

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #11 by pmuller9 » Tue May 28, 2019 9:14 am

I moved here from Washington state and have been focusing on building a new shop.
I haven't used any of the local machine shops yet so I couldn't give you a recommendation.
What shop did you send the head to?

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #12 by rocklord » Tue May 28, 2019 9:25 am

If the red 200 you have was rebuilt without running, then the rod big ends should not need resized just ARP bolts installed.

The 57cc volume for the E1 head is stock, I'm sure the head will need skimmed, so deshrouding the valves will bring the volume back up.
I believe that the stock valves for the crossflow have smaller diameter stems, like the 250 2V head, so you will have to either purchase valve replacements from Australia, or replace the valve guides with US sizes.

You could recoup some of your cost by selling some of the parts you won't be using. The copper head gasket, red 200 block already machined 0.30 over, and the reconditioned E0 head come to mind.
Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #13 by gumby23 » Tue May 28, 2019 10:15 am

The head went to a guy in Owensboro, KY. Friend of a friend, does a lot of one-off race-only stuff, and seemed quite interested in working with a unique piece.
The valves in the crossflow head are 11/32" stem, but we are discussing moving to a smaller stem to save weight. Knowing now that we are working with a flat top piston, he can tailor the deshrouding, valve face shape, and depth of cut on the surface to hit a chosen chamber volume.

I have a couple connections for circle track engine builders by way of my work building chassis, but have not approached them with the idea because it is so far out of the norm for them. I have not used any local shops for my own stuff yet either. The operations needed are fairly routine, but the subject is rather uncommon in a world of v8's!

Recouping dollars from the unused parts of the red engine is definitely a partial motivator for taking good inventory. :wink:

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #14 by pmuller9 » Tue May 28, 2019 10:25 am

I was looking at visiting Williams Precision Engines.
It appears that they have some inline experience.
http://www.wpespeedshop.com/index.htm

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #15 by gumby23 » Tue May 28, 2019 11:02 pm

Scrolling down the WPE website, I am reminded once again how small the racing world is. I am familiar with some of the customers pictured there, mainly the Hoffmans and Brady Bacon. I was not aware of the depth of the WPE portfolio with regards to the different styles of racing they are involved with.

I fired off a couple emails to AUS this evening and received a reply with cam card from Crow

Image

The 7738 springs are listed on the website as having 350lb rate, but no spec listed for seat pressure at installed height. I am waiting on that reply.

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #16 by pmuller9 » Wed May 29, 2019 12:27 am

The 242* .050" intake duration is close to what I was expecting.
The reduced 232* .050" exhaust duration is good if the engine is using a log type exhaust manifold.
If a long tube header design is being used then the intake and exhaust durations can be close to the same.

The 7738 springs have a 110# seat pressure @ 1.820" and a 350 spring rate.
That is OK for a naturally aspirated engine to 6000 rpm but will not be enough for 8000 rpm under boost.
I would expect a 140# seat pressure and a 400 spring rate minimum.

You would also be looking at 3/8" pushrods.
Does the crossflow head use pushrod guide plates?

What are you looking at for a turbo exhaust manifold?

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #17 by gumby23 » Wed May 29, 2019 7:11 am

Indeed, the plan is to build a divided log manifold.
The head originally had pedestal rockers. We are converting it to studs and guide plates to run adjustable roller rockers. I told him I want chromoly bodied rockers and 3/8" push rods for stability and durability. We can chase weight in other places.
110# on the seat does seem a bit low. IIRC, my 2.3T is 140 on the seat and 380 open with 0.522" lift. I turn that engine to a 7500rpm limiter.

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #18 by drag-200stang » Wed May 29, 2019 9:07 am

If your low mount block will cleaned up at 3.700, I would suggest a modern thin ring piston and the 1jz rod.
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #19 by gumby23 » Wed May 29, 2019 11:25 am

If I was starting from scratch there is no doubt I would be specing pistons around the 1jz rod! The whole thought process for this engine started with a good deal on a built engine. It has already evolved mentally thru a log-ectomy and now into a full cylinder head swap/build.
It is very easy for me to allow scope creep to get outta hand, but I gotta draw the line here someplace! I have already picked up some cash work to try and cover the new projected budget.

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #20 by pmuller9 » Wed May 29, 2019 1:08 pm

Which roller rockers fit the head after the stud conversion. BBC?

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #21 by gumby23 » Wed May 29, 2019 1:22 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Which roller rockers fit the head after the stud conversion. BBC?

It is noted in several places on the AUS forums that the Cleveland 1.73:1 roller rockers fit the crossflow head.
I also read where mike1157 had to switch to a 1.75:1 due to valvetrain geometry issues. I think those are a BBC application. I assume his issue arose from some tolerance stacking complication possibly due to the grind on his Tighe cam or the roller lifter conversion, or both.

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #22 by 64 200 ranchero » Fri May 31, 2019 3:34 am

Has there ever been a comparison of the crossflow vs the classic inlines head? Does the crossflow flow better?
60 ford ranchero daily driver. 200 tri power, modified c4 trans, ds2 distributor, msd programable 6al2, weber ict's, 8" rear end with full spool, 3.40 gears, 245 tires, CI dual out header, Flowmaster, 114hp shot wet nitrous kit. JE Forged pistons, 280 110lc cam, around 11-1 compression.

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #23 by gumby23 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:51 pm

I am not aware of a direct comparison, but there are some CI head flow numbers in the tech articles and this thread has a handful of numbers on the crossflow

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #24 by xctasy » Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:02 am

Post #7077 gives all the Fordsix. com references the former board user XRGlens cfm numbers from stock to fully modified in page 354 of Mike1157 build-up


The Classic inlines and Vintage inlines head has larger ports, and more aiflow with less valve lift. They are neck and neck everywhere because Mike W benchmarked the Crossflow head. Even the 2V iron head out flowed the crossflow intake.

145 cfm at 435 thou lift stock for the HF-1 head, to 275 cfm high ported and welded at 600 thou lift.

https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums ... 79&slide=0
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #25 by gumby23 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:14 am

I am going to let my engine parts picking inexperience hang out and hope that one of you will take me by the hand and 'splain things to me like a toddler.
I got a second cam recommendation, this one from Camtech. I can see that this cam is a single pattern with more duration and lift. What I can't wrap my head around is translating these numbers into real world performance.

Image

I need to go back thru mike1157's thread and see if I can dig up the specs on his cam for comparison. There is plenty of subjective documentation of how that combo performed for me to digest

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #26 by xctasy » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:36 am

Kelford Camtech is my supplier from 1993, ex Christchurch, South Island shareholdership.

Its a Danger Will Robertson Cam. Checking durations off the ramp can be 6 thou, or 10 thou for earky SB Chevies. 20 thou is used by some companies. 50 lift has become industry standard.

David Vizard gave exceptionall clues to cams, camminess, and turbo synchronisation in his Ford S.O.H.C Performance book in 1988. Let he who has wisdom understand....pmuller9 s cam calcs are just like Vizards Isky 134 example.

He discussed lobe centers, off boost and C4 automatic torque holes off idle and how to fix them with reducing duration when both intake and exhausts are open 30 thou.

Google SCRID xctasy Ford S.O.H.C, and you'll get my three posts.

Re-read the EAO/Pinto stuff. What works on those worjs better on Ford Sixes.

The "at lash" duration is calculated below using the standard calculations pmuller9 has posted(see below).

The cam is a lot more intense off the seat than Mikes; CMA's is down around the 235 mark for 50 thou duration. A 250 engine has a 25% stroke increase that dulls that savageness, but 253 at 50 is exceptionally savage, and a turbo 200 wont work at all well with it off boost.

Its very similar aside.

Im touch screening this, so cannot re-edit wrongly pushed "fat fingered fone fugg ups" without constant re-edits, so any words miss-spelt, im truley sorry.

I use Thou as a short hand slang term, and the System Internationale 0.552 when I see .552. I blurt out 30 thou over when I see a .030 over 351C.

Sign conventions like net and gross valve lift are like negative and postive wheel offset. They vary from place to place. My conventions might not be the same as proper US convention

The first readings are at lash durations, intake and exhaust. The second, at 50 thou (.050) durations intake then exhaust, the third brace of numbers, the average lobe center angle, the average of two, intake and exhaust. The forth set, the with 1.73:1 rocket ratio gross lift, minus the lash setting.

The grind is just like Mike1157's.

The total duration is a little less than the part race solid lifter cams from the early 1970's used in 265 Hemi Six Pack Chrysler Valiant Charger E49's, and the Phase II and Phase III GTHO 351C 4v Falcon four doors. The intensity, second figure, is far, far higher, so it reakky has a much more savage load stress curve, making it very noisy, with more noise than Mopar or Ford would ever except. At more than 220 degrees at 50 "thou", the engine will be unsympathetic to vacuum advance, low stall converters, a/c compressor cut in, and powersteering or 130 amp alterntor or electric fan cut in, so electronic or manual idle kick-in "throttle kicking" and "ignition ramp tip in" stratergies might be needed to tame ragardness from engine catch at 650 to create a stable 900+/- 50 rpm idle. The LCA average governs how the engines cam duration melds in with the cylinder size. Turbo engines with big cames should have 4 degrees more LCA than a cammed up carb engine. Most modern EFi engines start with 5 degrees more LCA from the factory to favor emissions and tame liw speed ragardness. 113 indicates its designed for an EFi engine, but LCA is not a band aid, its a mandatory requirement to manage reversion in the intake charge. In my opinion, its purpose is to allow pulse tuning.

On small 200 and 250 engines, Ford used the same 109 degree lobe center as the bigger 302C and 351C engines, and then just retarded the cam chain sprocket or crank sprocket for emissions compliance. In the 1985 speed density EFi era, Ford Europe and USA added LCA, and removed built in cam retard. In Australia, everything was VAM Meter EFi till the OHC in line, but the bottom end cars were CFi speed density, and Multipoint EFi still used the tighter lobe center.

Early in, FoMoCo had limited cam master profiles, cam changes were costly, and Fords late sixties Cobra Jet and Super Cobra Jet split duration cams were designed to save Ford money in reconguring the exhaust systems on emissions vehicles with thermactors. For LeMans, example is the GT40 289 and 427 LeMans Total Performance cams the intake exhaust duration was split with 18 less duration on exhaust; overscavening was provided by a special bunch in bananas exhaust.

Different philosphies to the days when cam grind cost was immense, now, its a growth industry which allows American cam grinders to rule the world with. Just remember, it was Clay Smith and heavy fuels and Hillbourne injection that got things moving. Everyone else then the world over copies USA cam grinders.

For gross lift at the valve, the normal max of the intake valve times (x) the curtain area are calculated using a factir of 0.30. If your lobe lift is 0.325, your solid lifter lash 6 thou (0.006) becomes lost motion and thats just 0.319 at the lobe and your rocker ratio might be measured as 1.75 instead of 1.73:1 advertised, then your lift at the valve is .319 x 1.75, or .558 at the valve. With a later larger intake valve of 1.84, your active .30 curtain area is bang on .552. Any lift over that isnt wasted lift, but you need to know that huge 2nd, 3rd and 4th factors need to be managed.

Very importantly, Ford Australia used 15 cc dishes in the little 200 cross flows instead of 5.5 cc pistons in the US 200 and 250. Peak lift at the valve was just 0.435, and any 200 with a 0.558 intake lift might get close to needing more than 8.5 cc of piston relief. The angles of the Aussie X flow valves are different and flatter than the Boss 302 and Cleveland 351 heads, but Be Carefull. The Boss 302 engines needed relief cuts with the 505 cams to avoid piston to valve contact in 8000 rpm situations.

The 250 cross flow used 21.9 to 27.9 cc piston dishes. The US 250 added another 18 cc by a 0.103 or greater piston shortfall.
Last edited by xctasy on Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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xctasy
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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #27 by xctasy » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:30 am

See post #38 for pmuller9's cam calculations. Hes always solid.

At viewtopic.php?f=22&t=79088
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #28 by gumby23 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:46 am

That is a lot of info to process, thank you.
xctasy wrote:The grind is just like Mike1157's.

Do you have his specs handy? I was able to find where he listed the lift(.529/.559) but have not found duration or LCA numbers yet.

Regarding pmuller, he pretty much called out the first cam before I even emailed any vendors for recommendations! I am curious how the two recommended cams differ in performance/drivability.

I am used to driving a 2.3T with a cam and larger turbo. 950rpm idle, 7500rpm red line, full boost(22psi) at 3400rpm, cruises easily at 25-3000rpm. 93oct fuel.

I am not looking for a 600rpm idle, and 1700rpm cruise. I will be running a manual trans and am not afraid to drop two gears from cruising speed to put a gap on somebody. I will have EFI, e-fans, and A/C. I do expect drivability similar to my 2.3, and the ability to stay on 93oct fuel, with much more power!

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #29 by xctasy » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:43 pm

Search Mike1157's early posts here. Members mike1157, select anyone of his 181 posts. He asked me for a best choice roller cam spec after I gave him Psycho250's roller cam conversion data.



viewtopic.php?f=1&t=70927&start=50


Dean Tigue sent him three specs. I told him to get the widest lobe center angle.

A Bensons Turbo guy gave me advice on cam selection for 202 Holdens via a 1987 Australian Street Machine article. You just have to avoid overscavenging.
Last edited by xctasy on Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #30 by gumby23 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:52 pm

Will do. Probably easier than sifting thru the stangnet thread again, thanks.

Isn't it like 3am where you are? Don't you sleep?? :)

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #31 by xctasy » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:40 pm

I've spent years asking for info, often with very little sucess, and many sarcastic responses from a lot of normally very great people. Since I do night shift construction professional services work for government projects, I don't mind helping out.

The worst thing is missinfo, the new antidote to free info sharing.


The cam specs are hard to find as Mike 1157 moved on when he found the FSP forum hard going and not performance orientated.

As I had a Fox Mustang 3.3, I retreated to Four Eyed Pride after many issues and a lot a hassle posting pictures here at Fordsix.com

Mike1157 lost acess to extra picture posting, and got out of FEP eventually.

I now remember that the cam specs are elseware; I've only copied them here in the past.

Once I get back to my desktop, I'll update the links below.

The Stangnet reference is:-

The page before this one...

https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums ... 3/page-376

The Four Eyed Pride reference is:-

Post#77
http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... la-Monster)/page4

The Ford Six Performance ref is:-

Post#6

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=76080&p=585795#p585795
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #32 by pmuller9 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:14 pm

The 253/253 single pattern cam from Cam-tech has two shortcomings.
First it has way too much duration for the rpm range and power band you want the engine to run at.
Second if a log type manifold is being used rather than a long tube header, a profile with less exhaust duration will run with higher efficiency.
There are two parts to the exhaust cycle.
The first part is the blow-down where the exhaust valve opens and the high pressure enters the exhaust system and continues until the cylinder pressure equalizes some time after BDC.
This is where the turbocharger picks up the exhaust energy that would have been wasted.

Next is where the piston pushes out the remaining exhaust and whatever pressure remains against the piston is a pumping loss and any pressure in the cylinder at the time the intake valve opens can delay the beginning of the intake cycle along with intake port reversion at low rpm.

The times I have data logged the exhaust pressure of a long tube turbocharger exhaust system showed scavenging enough to bring exhaust pressure at the port down to zero.
A single pattern cam profile works under this condition.

A log style manifold doesn’t offer a high level of scavenging and in some cases non at all so it is better to reduce valve overlap and exhaust duration and increase the LSA to focus more on the blow-down portion of the exhaust cycle.

A profile with an .050” intake duration in the low to mid 240s will make good power between 7000 and 7500 rpm.
An exhaust duration with 8 to 10 degrees less duration than the intake with a 114 degree LSA will be more compatible with a log style exhaust manifold.

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #33 by gumby23 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:31 am

pmuller9 wrote:A profile with an .050” intake duration in the low to mid 240s will make good power between 7000 and 7500 rpm.
An exhaust duration with 8 to 10 degrees less duration than the intake with a 114 degree LSA will be more compatible with a log style exhaust manifold.

I read, "Get the Crow cam and stop fussin!" I don't doubt your experience here, but that guy hasn't answered my email since he told me the crossflow head won't go on my block. :nono: I asked about why the card specs a hyd lifter on a mechanical cam and what other spring options he has, but have gotten no response.

I am still exploring and learning. I will try to make up with Martin at Crow once I have satisfied all my curiosities. :hmmm:

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #34 by pmuller9 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:20 pm

Don't worry about getting springs from the cam supplier.
You can get springs elsewhere.
Comp Cams has a conical spring that will work very well for your application.
Comp 7228, 136@1.800" with a 438 lbs/in spring rate.

What will the valve stem diameter be?

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #35 by gumby23 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:36 pm

I was mostly only curious as I found the wrong lifter called out and thought maybe the listed spring was incorrect as well. I have given my cyl head guy free run to choose the valves/springs/retainers that will go in the head. He mentioned possibly dropping stem diameter, and beehive or conical springs as well. We have not talked further about that yet. That Comp spring does look nice 8)

With Crow gone incommunicado, Camtech being considerably cheaper, and having built a bit of conversation with Malcolm @ Camtech, I decided to try and reign in his choice based on info in this thread. I received this just a few minutes ago:
Image

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Re: Turbo US200 Crossflow

Post #36 by pmuller9 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:04 pm

As previously mentioned the turbo is big for a 200 cu in engine but you can run the 246/246 cam and push the rpm to keep the turbo happy.
The idle will need to be high around 1200 rpm.
For street use I would prefer to see 246/238 on a 114 LSA.
It would be much easier to tune and improve low end response as mentioned.
Hoping the ported head can show .600" intake flow numbers near 230 cfm.

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