Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

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Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #1 by xctasy » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:43 pm

I'm re-reporting the lost posts on Ford Australias decision to forgo car making between June 4 and Sun Jun 09, 2013.

Of that, Cool23 said
Cool23 wrote:I think the hackers have not liked me posting about Ford Australia ceasing production as every time the forum has been hacked the topic has vanished. :roll:


I was just doing another project, where I found this 23 minute video.plus my fave 280 hp XK

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-q45n19XLM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QTgb4knAuI


In regards to that, I've reposted my take on the public announcement that Ford Australia is closed its manufacturing facility by 2015 due to uncompetitive costs verses China and other less developed, less expensive manufacturing areas. We've had this scepter hang over us before.

This time, its real.

Back then, I downloaded some pictures from a major right hand drive Peugoet 208 add and paraphrased what it was like for me, having been brought up with Aussie Fords since birth

http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/videos/ ... Peugeot-ad

Here is the post again:-


For me, the Ford Australia is the jewel in the Ford Motor Company crown.

Since the advent of the 1934 Ford Coupe Delivery
http://motor.history.sa.gov.au/collecti ... pe-utility
Ford Australia has wrapped conventional US parts into European esque size and esthetic, with generally great results. Okay, some of the six cylinder Cortina's may have been thrown together unloved in factories by jaded Aussies who sometimes delivered Monday and Friday quality to what was reliable stuff in England and Germany, but Aussie cars were subject to revisions needed to cope with the world most appalling roads baring maybee East Africa.

After all, the first Holden Commodores broke in half before there introduction, and German GM Opel Mechanical engineers were disbelieving of the Australian data on the loads a car towing a trailer or boat would receive.


Image

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Those loads are why World Cars required a total redesign of every larger car until the major Austrailan road work in the 80's, 90's and 00's dragged the two lane plant mix roads into a proper low roughness tapestry. It took 5 years for Ford Australia to fix the 1960 XK Falcons US design structure short coming's, and 10 years for the 1971 TC Cortina to be corrected of its Ford of Europe muck ups. By 1981, the Cortina had its HVAC, suspension, local content and durability issues totally sorted, but it still dropped backlights and had build quality issues untill the Tom Pettigrew and Mercury Capri era forced massive changes. The Pommy Transit and US F100 coped by having beam front axles, the little Escort by being small enough to avoid bending moments which would snap an LTD or Fairlane.

Through it all, the sweetest versions were the XP and XA, XB and XC 'Hardtop' Coupes, but from 1967 to 1981 other X-shell Fords like the wagons, sedans and long wheel base LTD's were exported with Windsor and Cleveland V8's to international acclaim. They got a lot harder to shift the bigger they got. But who can forget the Gone green pano, the immortal Six pack 86 XF 4.1 Pannel Van.

So the demise of the Aussie Ford car is like Ford Australia as the pink race car

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and the team that screwed it together for goddness knows who many years is like Penelope Pit Stop....they made gray Detroit slurry look goood.

Image

But there was always the rest of the world, who kinda plays the Dick Darstedly.

Ultimately, the rest of the world can world can plot and scheme like this,

Image

but it always seams to end up in the muck while the Aussies come up trumps. In 1981 to 1985, Ford Australia was the highest financially performing of Fords overseas outposts, probably because of Edsel Ford II's 1977-1981 influence.

But ultimately, the esck up drove is broke down and ditched, and the damsel then goes for the guy with the funny French car.

All the while, muttley sniggers.

Image

I under stand failing sales, just look at this graph, we used to hussle 65000 Falcons a year or more, now its below critical mass at 10000 odd or less


Image

Since break even is a critical share holder issue, this cost /price issue is too real to ignore, and the whole reason that the awesome French Ford Vadette and Ponta Mousson Fords failed in the 50's. Ford axed that French base too early, mainly because, politically, Ford was on the outside of the Charles de Guall area, much like the Mitrand area Chrysler Europe and England was when it sold out to Peugoet in 1979.

Non the less, and without blame, the demise of Ford Australia as a car making base is because of the economics of Americas most favored nation, where health, safety and environmental issues are not costed out yet like they are in Australia. The Aussies need to do what the Germans did in 1980, charge a motza, and export the heck out of there mechanical beasts to the Arab and American quarter, but its all fallen of deaf ears at Dearborn.

The death of Aussie Falcons and small six cylinder based in liners is because the cost price formula is being traded off against the cheapest, most unrealistic, unsustainable labor price, just like the rare earth industry was in 1983 when China set suddenly set the lowest costs for those items, and resulted in California stopping mining. Now, the Chinese stop production, and suddenly the value of opening up mining in the USA is economic again.


Edited: Links updated 7 October 2016, last Day of Ford Oz manufacturing. :thumbdown:
Last edited by xctasy on Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #2 by Cool23 » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:43 pm

Do you want to add to all that now the loss of Holden as well. Holden will shut in 2017. This leaves Australia with Toyota as the last company building cars in Australia.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #3 by Nashtooth » Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:03 am

It's all OK we don't need design engineering or manufacturing anymore only marketing matters now! Ask Wall Street! Forget the makers, salute the Traders! What could go wrong???

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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #4 by Cool23 » Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:48 pm

Nashtooth wrote:It's all OK we don't need design engineering or manufacturing anymore only marketing matters now! Ask Wall Street! Forget the makers, salute the Traders! What could go wrong???


At least Ford still do some design work here and hopefully that will continue past the end date of manufacturing here.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #5 by Cool23 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:47 am

We can also add Toyota to the list as they have today stated they will not build cars in Australia after 2017.

From 2017 there will be no major car manufacturer in Australia.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #6 by xctasy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:59 am

Its interesting that the Falcon is the cheapest car for the size any where, and that the Aussie market is unprotected and as free market as any in the world.

The issues with Nissan starting the pull out of Aussie in 1992, Mitsubishi after the press induced failure of the 380 in 2005, and Toyotas stoush with Altona's cost base from 2007 to date culminated in the Ford and Holden announcements. The Aussie market was the first bastion of the Japanese invasion with the around Australia Datsun in 1957, from 1974 to date, the Japanese have lorded over the lions share. The greatest sales have been four cylinder Sigmas and 180B/200B/Bluebirds/Telstar's and Camries and Magnas, the ones that should have succeeded the US based Avalon and Daewoo based Epica and small 2.5/3.0/3.5/3.8 V6 Camries and Magnas were not the successes they should have been. The cross over SUV's, the Territory, were absolutely the right direction, but the whole economics of the Falcon got deep sixed when Ford Dearborn failed to allow the export long wheel base Fairlanes to UAE, Arab and North American countries like Holden does the current Holden Statesman Caprice based Chev Impala Special Pursuit vehicles.

I totally understand Ford USA working in the best interests of its employees and share holders, but proper antipodean rear drive sedans are an exceptionally economic cost base, and Ford moving to front drive 500/Taurus/Explorer frames won't ever make the returns in the Australasian market because we are much more conservative. Our cars are used as SR5/F150's on on ribbon development roads with exceptional roughness, and unsealed traction issues.

Dearborn with the 1960 Falcon and Russelheim with the Opel Rekord/Commodore/Senator B series in 1977 failed to learn the lesson of how damn hard we lean on our cars, we abuse them far more then the average American does because some of our roads and waterway accesses are still so much worse than the Canadian and United States. We tow stuff with unibody cars we really shouldn't. A gargoyle like 96 Taurus, Explorer or F150 isn't as good on our roads as they are in the US, they end up upside down in a ditch because there well engineered engines and transmissions are two steps behind there questionable low slung chassis dynamics. The raising up of the 1996 Explorer and 1997 F150 isn't where Aussies head, they often tone down the trucks, and try to over tire the sedans. The XA/XB and XC Cobra Coupe was fatter around the rump to allow fat tires and Aussie F100 and Bronco were getting too tall for the conservative, non flaunting it Aussie.

Ford have failed to learn the the Saito small wheel arch, front drive, low slung, high overhang and departure cars like the 88 Escort, the 96Taurus, the Probe and now the too wide Taurus and Explorer are just unacceptable to the Aussie consumer. Toyota and Nissan understand this, and make high hip-line front drive cars, and keep throwing darts trying to get a 20, and missing. The 1986 Skyline and Camry/Aurion remain the closest hit, the technically superior Avalon and Magna /380 should have engulfed the Commodore and Falcon entirely, but for one thing...they sucked dead cats for visceral appeal.

Aussies love rear drive cars you can lunch a boat with, a drive up a cement ramp. The 1966, 1972-78 and 1979-1982 and 1988-1997 Falcons were the purest of the breed, and people were happiest when the international Ford style was toned down to suit the conservative Aussie palate. The offset has been really hard charging Mustang or SHO style engine options. When the ballsy 188 hp 302 and 200 hp351 engines weren't replaced with proper performance versions of the anemic 149 and 162 hp 250 engines, the Falcon lost a lot of market share. There were four aftermarket turbo kits, and Ford lost its ability to regenerate market share in 1998 because of what it didn't do in 1982.

The T6, Ranger/Mazda BT50 is the best torch to continue Ford Australia engineering.

The right solution for the cost/price equation is added value export marketing, and its Dearborn who have constantly vetoed progressive Australian Ford CEO's and fired them and sent them packing when there aspirations have seamed Jaguar and Premium Automotive like . When Aussie car were exported to island nations like they were from 1967 to 1981, and again to LHD countries from 1990 to 1996, the Aussies learned to engineer there cars to suit the worlds demands. Aussies are smarter, and can do more with less money, and the cost of screwing them together can be offset by exporting niche Fords to the UK, UAE, Asia and North America.

The precedent is the 1978-2005 Fox body Fords and the South African GM 380/Aussie Commodore as a UC Holden Sunbird and Torana package ...those cars size wise in 2003 to date would have worked in the current market, and Toyota does it with the Camry/Aurion. Toyota's failure to follow through in selling Klugger/Highlander 4 wd under-pinings and performance spec variants of the front drive Camry/Aurion is why they fail to gain market share.

My 2017 Falcon would be a front drive Taurus body shell with a 1982 Supra style nose extension from the A pillar , a rear drive conversion and a low deck in line six in 4.08" bore center 3.5 liter form in gasoline and diesel. A such, it starts looking like a Peugeot 505 on steroids. The engine could be used in 4 and 5 cylinder form in any other international car.
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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #7 by Cool23 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:29 pm

All that may be correct but value in the high value at present of the Aussie Dollar and the companies all pulling the pin here have decided they have no future in this country to manufacture cars. So we see Ford leave in 2016 then Holden and Toyota in 2017.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #8 by xctasy » Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:14 am

All that may be correct but value in the high value at present of the Aussie Dollar and the companies all pulling the pin here have decided they have no future in this country to manufacture cars. So we see Ford leave in 2016 then Holden and Toyota in 2017.




With respect to your undeniable intelligence, those two reasons are total nonsense brother. Once your parts supply and manufacturing go to another country, it will be unreliable, and the quality can no longer be controlled. Whole car divisions, in search of just money, are jeopardized by deciding to trust others. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/ ... 3S20140211.

Same issue when Toyota in the US sought an alternative supply to the Denso accelerator unit for the Camry. In that instance, a whole team of the most clever NASA engineers couldn't find the bug. Outsourcing at contract price creates risk, and it needs to be shepparded only to trustworthy sources. If Ford Dearborn thinks cheaper Asian supply lines for cars is gonna solve its cost problem, its got another thing coming. The past precedent is that only Japan and Korea has really improved quality, and it all stemmed from the awfull electronic goods supply issues of American incited post war production. It required all of Deming's production control disciplines to avert disastrous quality failures, and US incursion on the Chinese way of undercut and bankrupt won't be tolerated. In essence, Ford Australia is on board with the quality price tradeoff, and any other country won't be.


Having a high dollar and no investor confidence was what Germany, Holland and Sweden and England had in 1980, and it was only the Poms who got all messed up about charging extra to customers. As a result, the MGB GT, Midget and SDI/Lynx based Rovers and Triumphs got no extra component development, and the sold them with things like faulty ignition and injection capacitors and leaky Adwest power steering for the 3.5 V8 or in the case of the B and Triump 1500 engines, were just plain scared of shoveling in more dosh to keep customers happy. Just like in 1968, when US legislation ment BMC backed out of proper compenent, crash and emissions developement becuase stupid cigar smoking dingbats couldn't see how they could make money from Austin Healy's. Aversion to costs creates a series of total reliability failures. Jaguar, TVR and Aston Martin and Land Rover and Range Rover raised its prices and got alternative part supply from German suppliers like ZF and Bosch, or oil money and Arab quarter sales. Instead, Daimler Benz, Opel, VW/Audi/Porsche in Germany, Volvo in Holland and Sweden and Saab in Sweeen just co-operated, and raised there prices with better quality, better appointed goods, and the Germans via Bosch, ZF gear and Getrag gained all the production parts capacity, and sold the technology patents off to pay for higher production costs and inflation. All from a very adverse situation. GM and Ford screwed over Vauxhall and Fords Dagenahm plants by outsourcing to Belgian and Cologne plants, then suddenly injected extra capital as they picked up a better deal form the UK Government. That's how companies have to work in the modern era to get a better deal from Governments. They play hard ball to protect there own investments. Dearborn lookes after motor city as best it can, and if there's a short fall, it outsources. Motor city's unionized and negotiated work with its employess ensures people have jobs tomorrow. The Aussies need to do the same.

I remember you saying the same sort of smack about Geelong plant when it looked all hopeless back then. Ford Australia simply got the Federal and Dearborn funding it needed to continue. If Aussies are as smart as I think they are, the Aussies people, Federal Government and Ford at Dearborn will realize the old 800 000 per year Australian car market will have a large percentage of its production capacity will be picked up by China, and others will pick up ages old Holden and Ford components, and then decimate the US industry. Ford Dearborn are effectively stopping the Aussies making unibody gasoline and diesel rear drive cars in the 102 to 116 wheelbase range, and trusting the Asian labor to US dollar parity to yield dividends to Ford worldwide. It won't, because aspects of new supply lines are a greater risk.

When an Aussie uses economic issues like the AU dollar and overseas multinational investor confidence against themselves, they take a musket to there flag by listening to puerile crap fed to you by international companies that are just trying to get a better cost/price tradeoff. This is just what Ford did to Cosworth in 1985 by out sourcing to Yamaha the 60 degree V6 and V8 engines that became the Duratec 6 and V12 engines when it had a need to reduce production and design costs for next generation cars. Suddenly, Cosworth was winning Indycars, Group A and F1, and what does FoMoCo do, but outsource to Yamaha.

The threat of outsourcing is designed to give other Ford divisions world wide a pice of the pie, and have the Aussie population accepting that its all hopeless, and its better to buy Geely's from China. Of course, people from Aussie and New Zealand are frankly a lot more stupid, docile and easily conned than Asians, Germans and Poms were when confronted with this. Recently, the Buy Aussie campaign showed that you guys are at least thinking, but the thinking hasn't gone far enough to Aussies demanding a fair deal from its Federal Government in terms of exporting policy against other countries who don't expense out health, safety, the environment, and worker welfare. PRC looses 1.5% off its GDP each year trying to look after its collective nations political stability because health, safety, the environment, and worker welfare are secondary to self-administration, self-support and self-propagation.

The process Dearborn has undertaken is sort of like what happened to Taiwan when Ford became majority share holder and stopped Toyo Kogyo building engines for the world market Mazdas and Autorama Toyo Kogyo Fords in Taiwan. Imagine if the Japs and Koreans had the same attitude on giving up like you Aussies do, and decided it was all hopeless in 1996 because the US decided to collapse Japanese and Korean investment by playing off those two with PRC and Indian outsourcing. It's called 'getting a better price and saying your gonna walk', and they do it in Middle Eastern bazaars, yiddish kibbutzim, the Eastern block, and in Detroit Michigan. Its called business, and it requires a bit of resolve when the business owners play bodyline tactics. I do it myself.


Each of these two reason's you cited above are not reasons to stop. You Aussies had the same issue with your shipping industry, and you opted out because it was cheaper to give steel to the Koreans. And where is Hyundai now because of it? You have cheap bauxite, iron sands, coal, and expensive but stable shipping connections.

What's required is value added niche marketing. Despite of the UK's total post WW2 financial malaise and production engineering problems, Lotus, Cosworth, Aston Martin, its Tickford Prodrive division, Jaguar and Range Rover, Bentley, Rolls Royce and London Taxis International are foreign owned companies who have turned a busted a$$ English auto industry full of substandard thrown together goods into premium world beaters. You don't build 1.3 million cars a year in a high cost, uncompetitive environment, do you?

Well, yes you do.

I remember back in 1982 everyone said 6 and 5 liter V8's aren't what you use to gain market supremacy...well, from about 1988 to 2008, Holden did, with imported engines, gearboxes, and foreign designed, Aussie re-engineered components. The issue is that its wrong to peg two model lines in the same market, and asset strip sales between same sized cars. Holden bankrupted themselves in 1983 because of the cost implications from the wrong decision to replace 2liter J car fours and V and W big cars with three model lines. If it was Ford, it would have built the Astra in 1600 Family II engine form for export "complemenation" to GM worldwide, and then the Record as the Sunbird, then the Commodore and then the long wheelbase version of the Senator to keep the production lines humming hard out. Remeber, it was Holdens Chuck Chapman and Joe Whitsell who got the Aussie Goverment to help bank roll the export credits scheme to allow the Holden plant to export 1600, 1800 and 2000 and 2200 cc four cylinder Family II engines to the Germans and English, and in so doing, also got PBR brakes and BTR diffs to the Americans in small trucks and F cars. Imagine if the Canadians had the same attitude to you Australians? I'd expect this sort of crap from a Kiwi before an Aussie.

Today, the same stouch that existed between Ford and the Federal Government over the T6 program exists, primarily on cost/price, and who will contribute to getting the project to fly numbers wise. Well, newsflash!, Australia is the best, most stable, and cost effective base to build large cars for rhd markets and the UAE, and some engines for the world market. The cost of screwing them together can be amortized the same way England and Germany have. Right now, the UK makes more cars than Germany.

You Aussies need to stop with the crap fed to you by international companies that are just trying to get a better cost/price tradeoff, and market aggressively Holden EH sized cars which can be SUV'd like the AMC Concorde. The world market which has swapped to unibody front drive cars when full-chassis commercial vehicles like the Hilux SR5 and Ranger are becoming top sellers.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #9 by Cool23 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:21 pm

So do you have any comments on all those that will have lost a job ? What will they do ?

If you file for bankruptcy today will your government step in and use tax payer money to help you out ? I doubt it. A line was drawn with the car industry.

I wonder what you have to say about SPC ? What do you make of that ? They fear they may have to fold as well yet they are owned by Coke Cola Amatil who are a very wealthy company and could easily afford to set up SPC to do better and even export product.

Oh an by the way I am not your brother. :nono:
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #10 by Cool23 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:36 pm

On another note another company doing very well here at the present and building cars is a small company called TOMCAR. A great product being built in a way very different to the bigger companies. I expect this factory will do well as they have the Aussie spirit and know how to create a specalised vehicle.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #11 by xctasy » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:49 pm

Cool23 wrote:So do you have any comments on all those that will have lost a job ? What will they do ?

If you file for bankruptcy today will your government step in and use tax payer money to help you out ? I doubt it. A line was drawn with the car industry.

I wonder what you have to say about SPC ? What do you make of that ? They fear they may have to fold as well yet they are owned by Coke Cola Amatil who are a very wealthy company and could easily afford to set up SPC to do better and even export product.

Oh an by the way I am not your brother. :nono:


Job losses, read below. I've got reason to hate Aussies more than any, but I actually understand what its like to run a bussiness. My 120 mates at Toll Rail's Dunedin Hillside workshop got arsed out when a sleep under the bench Chinese firm undercut the price, and you can bet Toll rail weren't interested in up-fitting Hillside. My natural father worked there and Grandfarther Bob was a foremen there, and I had to rip and strip it all and forklift out all the machines to other business, and the Dutch sold off most of the machinery. The Government failed to secure assistance in the tender, and blocked my local engineering buddies despite ardent, focused and inspired work by our union. Then a casting foundry took up the excess capacity, and screwed over the rest.


As for brother quip, Go to Gallipoli, talk to an Aussie Vietnam War veteren. We are the same people. I'd trust you before I'd trust anyone else. Mate. I have Turkish Aussie mates who I'd give the shirt off my back to help, and despite the infractions of creed, race and where you came from, Aussies that gather under the stars of your flag have been sorting out Kiwi interests for years when we can't do it ourselves.

As for bankruptcy, Holden was bankrupt in 1983, and the Botton plan and export credits which the GM H exec team secured saved its butt. Government policy is a defacto handout, and Holden leaked a report to David Robertson to insure assistance. The Zmood JB and VK Holdens were useless shaddows of there former Germanic accuracy, but they got a huge amount of help to survive, and the money they saved was from governemnt inducements to cut down product lines with Nissan/ Family II engine swaps. Same thing would happen if Ford Aussie 'declared'. But it won't, its shadow boxing with an unlistening directorship which doesn't listen care much for weak signals. As my account says, goodwill is intangible, money is the matter. Just like Toyota didn't in the US when it ruined its quality reputations with engineering sign off on defective left hand drive accelerators and Celica timing chains, goodwill is worth something when you don't have it. Honda US didn't make the same stuff up, and Honda Motor Company was two timed by AR, and walked out on Austin Rover when they understood a lack of obedience and covert work to secure BMW support. I'd have dropped AR too..Honda is one of the best companies around. But I believe in Ford Dearborn, but the situation is that Ford Oz has been obedient,. but needs to reinvigorate its product line they way the did with the same Aussie flavor...

Lew Brants 1934 Ford Coupe Utility,
Image

the three years of Aussie Star 56 Ford Customlines,

the Zephyr Ute

the Bill Bourke area of plucky investment.

The XD and EA and especially the Henry Ford II
"V8 is doomed in the Blackwood"
, the non turbo XF and new edge AU which is the whole reason Ford Aussie has suffered so much. No help from Dearborn.

Same applies, and Aussies won't let America down. Your boss is still the boss, even if he's wrong. But Dearborn was wrong not to support an EFI alloy head Cleveland, an EECIV 4.1 Turbo, and AIT EA Turbo, and forcing new edge on the AU Falcon at gunpoint.

It can be conclusively seen that now Ford Australia has been hamstrung by Dearborn's front drive V6 mental block.

It take absolute issue with Ford Oz job losses. They are a result of not being able to make changes to product lines, and job losses would be absolutley nil if Ford Australias CEO's weren't given marching orders everytime they told Dearborn what the consumer needs. Edsel Ford II needs to stand in in the best interests of both Geelong, Broadmedows and that won't hurt Dearborn one bit. Ford has the smartest logistics people on earth, and it needs to understand that what is happening in Australia is happening everywhere...people are looking for more SUV cars, but with smaller dimensions. Its 1960 to 1965 all over again. Something like the Mercury Turnpike cruiser was where Ford thought things were headed in 1958, but the market does change. http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z119 ... uiser.aspx

The big car own
ers are moving to rear drive Skyline like bases, and the Japs via Nissan have found not everyone wants a V6. The days of 1580 mm wide interior cars still exists, but they aren't supposed to be 4.95 m or 195 inches long anymore unless they are utility or double cabs. And Holdens shift to 3 liter and Sport wagons was the right one, as the market is downsizing to Torana length but wider cars. In fact, I'd say the original XK Falcon length and width is where the market is heading, with enough room for two child seats and one adult.

The market needs rear drive model consolidation, diesel engines based on Ford Geelong Six, and the T6, Territory and Falcon need to have common base engineering to replace what was lost when the long wheel base wagons and Fairlane's and LTD's were ditched. That sha99ed the economics of the Falcon, and downsizing should have happened in 2008 after the 5 years of sedan and wagon model decline, but Dearborn said no to anything else but Focus and Mondeo. Go to the middle east, Canada and GTO circles. Despite the oddness of a high hipline car that looks like a too tall Pontiac, they love Holden based rear drivers, yet Ford Australia got no help selling off a competent well organized chassis overseas. On low polished stone value precoat chip, a Mustang won't generate the G's a Falcon can, and ill-informed reporters form the US don't understand the depth of Ford Australia's chassis ability.

I've seen http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/co ... 6815348036.

Comments like
This would be another 'Holden' - pump taxpayer dollars in for no real gain and only delaying the inevitable.
shows you that a lot of Aussies are unable to see that the company Holden has value. The reality is that a Holden Toyota Altezza sized would trump sales in ways it couldn't with the SunNerd and Torana Banana in 1979. Its button plan all over again, making certain Aussie makers sell in volume what customers want. It's time for the Governemnt to say, look, if we ran a bussiness down, our tax payers would lynch us, what the heck are you doing here. If its HS&E, then its a tax against business, but not mismanagement.

You picked the wrong person to talk to, as I grew up working for bulk drink distribution with Lane Thompson and then Oasis industries in 1985, and they went bankrupt after the 87 Kiwi recession. I know what job loss is when you've got kids to feed. The supply lines for that company then got owned by others, Coca Cola because it had critical mass. I drive a truck for Coke Cola Amatil in Dunedin on Thursdays through my work as an AWF Labourer, have done so for four years, and have been involved in logistics for 29 years. Fact is, Aussies need to drink, and there is everything around from other suppliers and CCA, including non sugar, non caffine stuff for everyone, and SPC Ardmona looks after HS&E matters, and its that which is the cost of doing business. I won't back down on the fact that a company acts in interest of its share price, but also has to consider who will take up the slack if they ditch there Aussie out post.

You guys are lucky, 23 million people have buying power, and a buy Aussie campaign would scare the crap out of anyone trying to sell foreign goods in Australia. Its really funny how my Kiwi counterparts get scared when Aussie talk buying Aussie. I've been laid off when the money is hard for a company, and the true Aussie spirit is actuially not just get stuck in and have a go, but talk about it, then act. In that way, Aussies are far smarter than Kiwis, and you guys need to stop looking at exclusive Aussie owned companies, but sussing out ways to grow wealth for people with a few dollars. Thats the measure, share holder value, and Ford Australia has proven it again and again, and needs to have another chance.

Fords Australian workers are responsible, active and hardworking, and Ford Australia clearly has been prevented from exporting by Ford in favour of Asian outsourcing. That's not fair play when Aussies can do it better than the Asians.


Ford Australia's model mix was messed up when Ford Dearborn went front drive and v6 exclusive...Aussie won't buy front drivers, and it will buy a smaller Mondeo sized rwd, and the Ranger will become the next tradie vehicle like the F150 did in the states, and the SR5/Hilux does here in NZ.

News Flash,Ford Dearborn, didn't the XK Falcon, TC Cortina and front drive Taurus teach you anything about the Australian spirit, and Australian motoring needs. I doubt it.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #12 by Cool23 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:34 am

I can see many faults in what you have written so I'll just stick to a couple as I am not here for an argument with you.

The name is Lew Bandt. Did you know we are lucky enough to have that Ute here in Castlemaine now. A mate has it stored safely yet on show to the public and looking after it for the BANDT family. It came here after Ford shut the discovery centre in Geelong. Many guessed something was wrong when that place shut.

I see you are not a true investor as you have not responded to what I said about SPC and the relation they have with Coke Cola Amatil. Ford, GMH & Toyota are all wealthy companies based in the US and Japan yet they wanted Aussie tax payers dollars to fund them. Coke Cola Amatil now want similar funding for SPC when they already have all they need to set up export without support.

As I said not here for an argument. Australia has lost Ford, Holden and Toyota as manufacturers now and what this means is we will no longer manufacture cars or mass produce cars in this country.

Imported cars will change the way this country does many things in the future. I am sure that will also mean many changes in New Zealand as well.

Tarriffs may or may not change and even recently I have seen GT Rhino Fairmonts making an appearance at events. Yes the GT Falcon was rebadged in South Africa as Fairmont and the Super Roo logo replaced with a Rhino.

How about all these changes and how will they affect say a vehicle built for the disabled, as an Ambulance or a Taxi ?

Another point you have not seen is how many workers at Ford, Holden and Toyota went to work every day in an imported vehicle ?

By the way I am the last person you will see in a Hyundai.

As for it being made in China and you mentioned a firm that was shut well I have been to China and I can see why the workers can do it for $3-00 an hour. They have no safety gear no hearing protection and often work barefoot. Any ones job can be outsourced to another country if the company can save more and spend less. We as workers in Aust have rights just as you do in NZ. Chinese workers have no protection.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #13 by xctasy » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:29 am

All companies want incentives, and tell you they'll pack up and get the low hanging fruit else-ware. Rio Tinto wants to pull out of Tiwa point at Bluff and stop smelting bauxite for Australia, and it threatens the Government here. It's called economics. http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/04/tiwai_point-2.html

The point I made is that China doesn't cost out HS&E, as there is none to speak of, so any short fall in the general ledger for Ford, Toyota, Holden or CCA in Aussie is as a result of higher costs in those three segments, which cannot be amortized. That's why multinationals ask for money.

Pretty simple. Its time to do the Merv Hughes sledge. If you want cheaper production costs and not to pay, the Fat controller has to collect the tickets some place else. You won't be selling 65000 Falcons this year, and 65000 units is a minimum for break even, so let us sell something that makes the volume. Ford saw this in 1981, when it saw the next Falcon as a front drive LWB Telstar. The fact that China is reselling Rover 75's as the switchabe to rear drive MG 6 should be a clue.


The Government funded T6 is doing it, and the American populace is perplexed as to why Ford doesn't offer it in the US. http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/tru ... rst_drive/

If the 126.8 wheel base was cut, and the basic parts used elseware like Ford did in the 60's, smaller segment cars could be serviced from the same production tooling and get the volume back up. An IRS with 112" wheel base 5 dr wagon and 3dr wagon on 105" wheelbase would be killer Territory replacement, and that short wheelbase be the form-work for a cut-down Falcon sedan. Since the side impact crash rules, cars have been getting wider and much longer. This isn't a Leyland p82 style dream its economics and sales.

The Mondeo is now Falcon sized
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #14 by Cool23 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:16 pm

Well if that is going to work every one has to take a wage cut and including NZ. Grin and bear the rising cost of living and hope like heck they survive.

My original posts that got deleted during the forum attack was about the loss of what this forum is about the inline six.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #15 by xctasy » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:42 am

That is what's happening, its getting harder to live and make a living everywhere. I want Aussie Inline sixes, and there is a road map to make that happen, and Dearborn are able to make it a reality.

Meantime, get ready for someone to make there own iron inline sixes, because Ford US has opted out of helping Australia
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #16 by Cool23 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:42 am

The Inline six is dead. Ford will not make them again.

SPC cried hard enough and got some money. If they fold in 5 years they have to pay back in full.

I wonder if you have ever looked at the Tariffs ? India has 100% for example so an Imported car would be very expensive. Makes it hard to build a car in Australia and export it when every country is so different. Importing a car from Australia to Japan for example would be a joke yet when we buy goods from Japan it is not an equal playing field. Yet the tariff to bring a car from Japan here is very different. Free Trade is nothing like it and a load of crap.

That is what killed off the Motor Industry here.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #17 by Cool23 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:33 pm

xctasy wrote:Meantime, get ready for someone to make there own iron inline sixes, because Ford US has opted out of helping Australia


Do you expect Ford will just say "OK yes copy our Engines we no longer make them so you can" ?
I doubt it. Ford will have that legally tied up or the hoops with (the legalities :bang: ) you will have to go through to build a copy of that engine will be great. If it was worth doing some one like Rare Spares may be able to do it but would there be a market for it with out improvements ? :hmmm:

Unless you have them built in China :lol: and that sort of defeats the purpose :cry: .
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #18 by xrwagon » Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:32 am

The whole thing is BS, the governments of past and present has made it very hard for Australian manufacturing. The imports, what Australia has failed to do is its failure to let other developing nations stand on there own to feet, imported fruit and veg when we have a rich futile country, export our best meats overseas, import crap back, i mean i cant even drink milk now, its crap. We had the lucky country, now its the unlucky country where the laws have you wound up tighter than a fishs bunghole, you quite simply cant do anything, its so complicated in red tape and this and that by the powers that be, who make and change laws with no legal argument or public scrutiny. Its quite simply gone, and now our beloved car heritage is all but completely in the toilet and these wowsers offer stupid assistance packages etc, well the answer was always in front of there face. If you can dictate farty fairy fun police laws and wrap ya self in 5 layers of red tape then dictate what we need to import and export, keep what we grow, sustain our selfs on a business model that makes it all fair. Only export whats left over, we have lost our way and the incredible cost of tooling up for the future generations is gone, when we had it in the first place, tall poppy syndrome for sure.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #19 by rocklord » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:40 am

Cool23 wrote:
Do you expect Ford will just say "OK yes copy our Engines we no longer make them so you can" ?
I doubt it. Ford will have that legally tied up or the hoops with (the legalities :bang: ) you will have to go through to build a copy of that engine will be great. If it was worth doing some one like Rare Spares may be able to do it but would there be a market for it with out improvements ? :hmmm:

Unless you have them built in China :lol: and that sort of defeats the purpose :cry: .


Companies already make aftermarket blocks, heads, and cranks for engines without Ford coming down on them (Dart comes to mind).
A lot of the pieces are even superior to what Ford produced; of course, you get what you pay for.

I doubt if anyone will ever recast the parts necessary to reproduce the great inline sixes you guys down south have. Sad :(
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #20 by Cool23 » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:59 pm

rocklord wrote:Companies already make aftermarket blocks, heads, and cranks for engines without Ford coming down on them (Dart comes to mind).
A lot of the pieces are even superior to what Ford produced; of course, you get what you pay for.

I doubt if anyone will ever recast the parts necessary to reproduce the great inline sixes you guys down south have. Sad :(


We have seen Ford get very protective of product here in the last few years and I guess that would also be very obvious in the USA. Licensing requirements are required for many things.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #21 by xctasy » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:06 pm

Ford Australia were screwed in 1976 with the 8 years of 85 % local content laws, and again by 1988, as by then, the Ford OHV Six had 16 years between being fielded as a 4.08" bore spacing engine with Bendix carb, Bosch ignition, and a block, crank and head which was now interchangeable with the Holden Red/Blue/Black engines. Honda making the head for Falcons from 1980 to 1992 added some extra fun into the mix. Transmissions and diffs were BW/BTR, interchangble between varous Chrysler Valiants and Leylands. I've discussed this abilty to cross over Ford, Holden and Mopar parts before. For instance, the current GM 4200 runs a 4.05" bore centre twin cam head, so you can make a Chevy headed, Holden cranked custom Ford Falcon block with either junkyard or recast parts. And even the smartest patent attorney's won't stop that. The Aussies through Kevin Sainty, Merv Waggot and Foster and Phil Irving and Duggan proved that you can remake anything with a design link to a standard production part. Blocks, heads, cranks, cams. Nissan proved that you could swap bore centers between engine families to avouid patent issues, which is why the four cylinder L14/L16/L18/20/L22 have a Ford Cortina/Escort Kent bore spacing, yet the six cylinder L 20/L24/L28's run an almost Slant Six bore spacings. They were not made with the same bore spacings, despite the high percentage of common parts. That's because Nissan was already trying to copy the Cosworth based multivalve Kent engines as high performance sixes.

Hence Holden's twin cam grey, red and blue/black motor heads are able to be slapped on Vauxhall or Ford blocks, and the F1 winning Repco Brabham was a just a Phil Irving headed 215 Buick engine with Daimler SP 250 rods, made by a Ford production engineer using Repco production facilities.

I've worked for big multi-national business for 16 as of 2009. With two movements, I had some very important design and database information that was effectively non transferable unless it was to be formed elsewhere 60% different. Patent lawyers are the best people in the world, like cross between Einstein and Alfred Ely Beach. So if well monied John Jacob Astor's of this world are kept in there place when they attempt to prevent progress, you just need a good one. A good lawyer helps you out.

There are differences between parts of the world, but generally when engineers are transferring from one company to another, there is an IP agreement which places a 5 year moratorium on non disclosure of trade secrets and designs. Although some historical 'behind closed doors' internal discussions avoided other auto makers taking new suppliers to court, there are many copies without official license. This is only tolerated when there is an internal arrangement. Examples

1. Rolls Royce stealing the Packard 352 and 376 engines, and remaking it in alloy as the 6250 and 6750 alloy engines 2 year later,as the engineer employed was ex Packard,

2. The Nissan Motor company never got taken to court for the A series knock off of the BMC A series engine because they made as many changes as possible to avoid it, but it was as much as a copy as you could get of, but they did get censored over the Bantam/Austin Seven being made illegally as the Datson.

3. The current MG 6 ( re heat of the competent Rover 75) had to be purchased from a bankrupt Austins Rover, and its Tarta company via Geely, and then a time of non production before it could be released to avoid patent, design mark and copyright infringements. There were a whole range of stipulations even a bankrupt company invoked after the 2004 collapse of Austin Rover. The car is a full copy, with more than 60% parts commonality.

4. The Holden Red motor being made on 4.08" Ford Bore spacings, with Ford suppliers components such as 1 and 2-bbl Bendix-Stromberg Technico carbs, Bosch non electronic and electronic ignition and Dodge ignition rotors.

5. The Cizeta v16t having Ferrari V8 cylinder heads

6. Ford copying the historic Jeep and Salisbury Gear HU6 and Dana 44 differential used in Jaguars, Vauxhall Cresta/Bedford CA/CF/J series, Chev Corvettes, AC Cobras and De Tomaso and Maserati rear drive cars and selling it as the 8.8 inch Ford in every bigger/higher powered Ford from 1985 to date. Internal parts between the are interchangeable between eight automakers differential housings, with some minor bolt and carrier hub changes.

7. The copy of the Austin Gypsy and Chev L6 engines on some early Japanese market Nissan and Toyota trucks. Of course, they changed more than 60% of the components to sort that out.

8. The 4 -speed gearbox in the 300G Mopar Hemi four speeds was a knocked of all syncro Ford side-valve V8 gearbox via the French Ponta Musson company, and the 153 tooth Chevy flex-plate was a Ford V8 rip off, and remains so today. But no one cared then, and don't now.

9. Lastly, the Detroit Gear/BW automatic Ford made as the multiple versions of the FMX and Cruise-O-Matic...but Ford had a gentleman arrangement, like they did with using GM Rochester 4-BBL carbs. But they didn't have BW patents to contend with when the AOD came out, despite a huge percentage of BW parts in that gearbox, because of age and the percentage of design changes.

I have worked through the legalities of making a Ford in line six myself, and Ford Australia have some major problems stemming from
1. the time since each last revision (16 years of more, free slather)
2. who the the producer of the part was(primary, secondary, tertiary supplier status, and if the part is shared with other engines)
3. and the Design mark/patent and 60% of design issues.

There's nothing to stop me getting some steel and welding together a 4.08" block in my basement, Sanity 392 Hemi style, or using three of my local grey iron casting places in Dunedin to knock off a Holden/Ford block with a detachable bell-housing adaptor and facilty for a T head cam arrangement so you can fit a Holden or Ford cam on either side of the block, and bolt a Yella Tera head or Ford log. CI , X-FLOW, AU-FG Twin cam or GM 4200 head on that block. If I lopped of 1 or two cylinders, I could make a twin cam 4 or 5 cylinder engine. All in my basement.

That's why Ford Australia shouldn't opt out of engine production, because it would soon end up unprotected, and in the wrong hands.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #22 by Cool23 » Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:06 pm

Would you like me to put you in touch with Ford Australia's Legal Department ?

I am aware Ford have taken action against many companies and a US firm had 24 hours to take the name Ford out of a business name.

More to the point of Manufacturing stopping I read today of a company making and developing seats that would be easier to use and lighter for a car and with many advantages including safety features. Now for this company to continue development they may have to relocate overseas to follow the market or continually travel to make and improve what they are doing. This is being done in conjunction with a University so this yet shows another area affected but all these changes.

Ford purchased Jaguar - Land Rover some time ago and got the Diesel design so they could use it in the Territory. They then sold off Jaguar - Land Rover to TATA Motors in India.
With the demise of the Territory the V8 Diesel is now to be used in another vehicle in the USA.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #23 by xctasy » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:47 pm

The cost /price issue is where its at. And Ford Australia failing to sell 140 000 cars a year like in 1982.

This is not an anti Chinese sentiment, G_d knows my European and English relatives screwed over the Chin's by continually under representing them with poll taxes and treating them as sub standard citizens. Well, they aren't, but Dearborn has to understand that as the Japanese reached supremacy with the 1969 to date invasion into the Australian car production via the 85% local content and quota restriction and trade tariffs. In a similar way, so too will the Chinese own the dregs of Australia's Ford and Holden supply lines, despite any attempt to protect it by the rule of law. Where is Repco heading, and VDO Australia now, and what is PBR going to do without a customer. Investors have to get there money back, so they will become more Chinese focused.


Over the past 11 years here, I have had very odd conversations with Ford Australia people, they call and test my knowledge and then go away and set there plans before Dearborn. Ultimately, nothing will save the intellectual property loss that giving up production in Australia will result in. Well before this point, Ford Australia was putting out tentacles to look at other opportunities, like they did when T drive and Cab forward and Tickford purchase. This resulted in Ford Australia supplying a fully working T drive train to the US, including the 2003 24 valve head which was picked up via Pro-drives Aston Martin and AJ6 development.

The issue is that you Aussies understand the market, and Ford US understands how to build a car down to a price. The two juxtapositions mean you have to have very threatening conversations...a Bunkie Knudsen verses Henry Ford II or Wangers and De Loren verses the Board heart to heat each time. The matter is making budget within confines of share holder and engineering forecasts. As we've seen, Ford Dearborn will burn 250 million dollars from 1958 to 1961 keeping the known failure of the Edsel on the production line for three years, but then chop the Mustang I and Cardinal after five years of carfull research from 1957 to 1962. Its called a balanced budget. I understand that to make money, you can't put to many radical eggs in one basket. Successful US percentage shots were certainly the 86 Taurus and Sable, but the Aussies even in 1984 with Bill Dix knew that such cars were destined to fail in Australia. The Magna and Charger, Monaro were just flashes in the pan, they don't sell in volume. So to appease Dearborn, who just loved the way the steep hood golden EA26 with LTD wheels rated in the clinic back in 85, the Aussies had to give a burn notice on every V8 Cleveland tool, and go for broke on just one I6 platform; and the result was the EA to EL success. The tooling for those kind of cars is up for grabs, and the Chinese can make Falcons and Commodores tomorrow, its already making Sigma chassis Buicks right now. Its just like Great Wall being reheated Nissan knockoffs. The Chinese are more like Koreans and Aussies in there car preferences than Americans.

If the better, more economic 96 Taurus and the latest Mondeo was actually something Aussies loved, there wouldn't be an issue with Aussie Ford production, but Asia Pacific is actually very conservative, and Dearborn has to learn to compromise. The ability to mix and match platforms like the ill fated but now Chinese made Rover 75 knock off, the MG 6, and now the Subarau Imprezia based Toyota GT86 is now the preserve for the Asians. Platform sharing in the European Cardinal/Consul/Cortina/Granada and US x shell Ford days was the whole reason Ford aced the development budgets in the 60's. They did it again in the late 70's with the Fox.

There is other stuff Ford Australia has been doing, the leading edge CNG and propane work, the Aston Martin DB9 style ZF 6 speed and Car of the Future style drive train. It didn't come from Mark Skaife. The landmark 1966 ZF GT40 gearbox design has always been a 17 grand prospect, Ford Australia could have made it a 2500 dollar prospect, with Nissan Skyline/Porsche 968 4 x 4 style drive train, but its all forlorn. But the Chinese will make it happen, and a transaxled rear drive sedan with 4WD capaility will happen with Great wall from Nissan bits.

The patent attorneys fight to censure the knocked off Ford and Holden branded parts, but Australian content laws and the button plan have made it impossible to protect everything.

The Nissan inspired EA 26 CFI, the Ion and BTR auto, the BTR/Dana diff, the X shell chassis stampings, the braking systems, even the Bordeux auto trans parts will be made elsewhere, but it will be just like it is with the Rover 75 owner...suddenly the cars are junk, and you couldn't get parts, then 7 to 10 years latter the car gets resold by being stamped with Chinese machines.
Last edited by xctasy on Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #24 by Cool23 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:35 pm

News today that Tariff changes will come into place soon and this will allow export of Australian made gearboxes with out the hassle it had before. By doing this the manufacture has a better chance to sell more than they did before. Other wise this company would have also been forced to close as they could not compete with the global market and what would be the point of having a company in Australia building gearboxes for a local market that will no longer exist !
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #25 by Cool23 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:41 am

Hopefully we can see a company like Holinger http://www.holinger.com.au/ take a big leap forward.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #26 by Cool23 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:36 am

Not only will the City of Geelong lose Ford, now adding to that the loss of ALCOA.

http://www.theage.com.au/business/alcoa ... 32xj4.html
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #27 by xctasy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:42 am

Opposition Leader Daniel Andrews said it was a "desperately sad day" but attacked the Premier and his government for failing to save the manufacturing sector in Victoria.

"No government ought sit by as a spectator, as bystander and watch industries leave our state and see thousands of workers put out of their livelihoods, this is not leadership at all, we used to lead the way," Mr Andrews said.

"So many others across Geelong will feel this pain.

"We used to lead this nation; we were well and truly ahead of the pack. We're slipping. Our state and its workers desperately need a jobs plan."




This where Ford and GM in Michigan were in 1980's, and again today. The Americans understand it, why aren't the Australians offering an alternative plan back to Dearborn and Flint need to look at who bails them out in terms of design and access to the East and Far East. The flow on effect isn't what you think, its worse.

In a very special interview of Edsel Ford II in 1981 on his departure from Ford Australia back to the US to University studies, he said that Ford US cannot just sack its production line workers because the US would rather buy Japanese cars with doodads, one that take less labor to make than US ones. He said it was a big jigsaw puzzle, but that Ford employed the smartest minds to see the way forward. Well, its still true, but Australia needs help too, and its sad that Ford USA isn't looking at how Ford Australia can make 140000 cars a year again with good margin. If it was, Ford Oz would be doing it. Instead, its about towing the party line. There are a few critical months before Ford USA makes another stupid blunder again. Not everyone wants front drive based platforms and gasoline V8 engine's. The cars that are selling are more conservative than ever, and more like Hiluxes and mini F150's.Ford Australia has gotten its trucking housing in order, and its time for proper volume sales on cars that Aussies want, not reheated wall to wall front drive fails. A co-oped BMW 3 series and SUV's based on it would sell. The old hat brigade is strong, and they buy old grey market Toyota Atessa's and Nissan V6 powered frumps down here, with the rear drive Toyota's the winner on repeat sales. Toyota understands the some what backward looking nature of new car buyers, and the GT86 fits the bill at very little cost to it.


Is anyone in Dearborn listening?
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #28 by Cool23 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:01 pm

If you want to make this topic Political then I think the forum admin should close the topic.
Daniel Andrews suffers from not turning on his brain before he opens his mouth. With the recent fires here he commented on the lack of support by the government for the fire fighters and the fire fighters turned that round and said labor had been pushed to much by the Greens tieing hands not to be able to do enough pre-season fire prevention work.

What you may also fail to see is the past labor governments left the present liberal governments with debts so they can not support the industries that need a financial break.

With the dollar as it is in value many places are looking for support. Even Aust Post looks like it may have to be privatised because no one writes letters any more.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #29 by xctasy » Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:23 am

Point noted and responded to in agreement.

I never expected Australians to respond to the free market policies like a bunch of Kiwis....

In the past, though no-one understood it, we discussed GM's response to a potential Chapter 11 in a similar manner without getting in p_litics, and can do here again. I cited back then exactly what GM H did in 1983 when confronted with her failure to win market share in 1982 like it almost did in 1973. That showed a smart, articulate and reasoned response to market share attrition because of model mix, and the instant response from Holden was to semi outsource its cars from other GM posts who could make market share. They did it, and did it well, although Toyota made permanent incursions on the truck market and small car market, which resulted from the failure to build the Opel Kaddet in Australia. and Isuzu's perpetual desire to do its own thing on body and engines for its J car and Rodeo Bighorn, and walk away from car production and a proper T car Gemini replacement. Holden realized this at its peril in 1982, after tooling up for a J car which would have been better replacement by a short nosed Rekord V car with a 2 liter Family II engine.


Ford needs to see itself as a producer of 140 000 cars a year in Australia again, and the F shell Falcon , T6 and a smaller fwd/rwd/4wd platform with parts commonality to each with common Word Car Ford components, but with similar export aspirations to the T6. A help up, not a shut up, is needed. One member of the Ford board, EFII, understands that the paid for by Ford infrastructure is likely to get subsumed by the non payers to Health, Safety and the Environment. In terms of those vital ingredients of a purchase, Ford Dearborns lack of support is a sellout since Ford Australia was following a US inspired game plan. Time for another one, and a regroup with a measurable requirement to retake the market again with more suitable goods at a higher price, with export aspirations revamped. ,

What's right for the US is not right for Australia. Does GM remember the HD, the Roberts HQ which took years to catch on compared to the XA and XB, and too small across the back seat V car, which Holden 'de-imaged' again with a mighty 1900 Sunbird engine. All had moments of brilliance, then died because they weren't engineered to suit Australians. Same applies today. If Ford really understood what customers wanted, they'd be out selling Toyota. with car platforms built down to a price. The 1/4 of a cost Asian Ford really isn't a match for an exported Falcon with a price premium.

Holden should be doing the same thing. There is enough pie for everyone.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #30 by Cool23 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:52 pm

You are now talking about what should have been. Hindsight is a great thing but that has not happened. Sadly will not happen now.

The German Opel designed Torana (Vauxhall in the UK) is a good example as the Aussies took that design and ran with it. The Holden six in the Torana even competed and won against the bigger Ford GT V8's. Still now we can only look back on that as history.

With the three companies now changing plans what future does the car industry have in this country ? What future will the component manufactures have ?
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #31 by MustangSix » Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:05 am

And farewell Holden. This leaves only Toyota as a manufacturer in Oz.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/12/11/gm-m ... -official/

I imagine that GM will continue to sell cars in Australia, but they'll be built in China (and badged as Opel's).
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #32 by xctasy » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:36 pm

Cool23 wrote:You are now talking about what should have been. Hindsight is a great thing but that has not happened. Sadly will not happen now.

The German Opel designed Torana (Vauxhall in the UK) is a good example as the Aussies took that design and ran with it. The Holden six in the Torana even competed and won against the bigger Ford GT V8's. Still now we can only look back on that as history.
With the three companies now changing plans what future does the car industry have in this country ? What future will the component manufactures have ?


Simon, I hope you get this, its tone is in total respect to being able to talk issues and matters surrounding the Ford Australian operation. I'm not trying to transfer issues.

100 years of Automotive Hindsight makes automotive foresight. Australia is indeed the most important and competitive market, aside from perhaps California. It has been an easy nut for Japan to crack, it was there first market, and its critically important to them. In this instance, Ford Dearborn has been outsmarted and out maneuvered by the Japanese Toyota and the Chinese and Koreans will plug away at the market when Ford Oz goes.Its tantamount to sacking Tabatha Coffey when she tells granny how to suck eggs in Tabatha Takes Over. Really, its the same thing,



Mark my words. Rear drive capable and non front drive only combinations are the next step forward, and its not a 100% Aussie dollar rise that makes Aussie uneconomic. Its the price/cost equation, amortized over the units of sale. Really basic economic stuff. Stuff that Dearborn prevents Broadmeadows getting right. The price per pound equation gets a wide base when you do a BMW, and give model variance for proven sales. The

I know how mechanical engineers in Aussie and New Zealand do business, they've worked with low margins before, just like the English and Germans have. The United States is different, because Detroit in 2014 does what it did in 1903....it creates margin by making equity out of investors money. A dollar made, verses 1 million dollars, as long as its money made, all good. As it was in the McNamara era, its the general ledger in each market share that's important.I can't see how Ford Australia can make money when its next step forward has to be a car base custom made to make Australian sales. The Mondeo is not it, but the T6 is blQQdy close...Mazda showed that a B2000 can take a whole 323/GLC/Laser dash and bring car like refinement into the light truck range. The same yachting approach Ford Australia used with the Territories alternate model upgrades to the Falcon's allowed the IRS, long wheel base BA body and double jointed IFS to be "costed" off...the same thing happens when you get more revenue from a closely related SUV's based on the sedan. Its cost plus margin stuff, like it was with the LTD and Fairlane over the Falcon, so to was the Territory over the Falcon. This is where Ford Australia really shines...its ability to make very different cars from the same engineering base. I suspect its the De Tomaso type engineering concept of making a four door or two door rear drive sedan the primary model base that ticks off Dearborn, and Dearborn is turning its back on the proposition that Australia is very conservative, but highly Japanese in terms of working the cutting edge of a basic concept, in a way foreign to Dearborn.

Ford Australia is the tale of two project mangers. One makes a 25% margin, the other looses 25% margin, so you keep the manger who makes money as the wining formula. The Ranger Rover was just a Ford Bronco with substandard British engineering and alloy panels, yet Ford Dearborn paid money for the privilege to have it in its Premium Automotive group when it could have done the same thing by marking it in Australia. Ford paid for Volvo's substandard Mitsubishi based front drivers because it had ancient sandwich construction I5's and 6's, which Ford still uses. They paid for the privilege to capitalize off the Volvo durability image. The Jag XJ 12 series was just a cheap De Tomaso, the concept that made the Deuville and Longchamp. Again, Ford Dearborn paid a handsome price for others to produce what it could have done.

The The Cricket mentality is that a whole team wins when you give the spinners a go. It upsets the existing order. Stonewalling is what Dearborn has forced Ford Australia to do. There is no chance of prospective growth in the Australian market with a bunch of random, confused image Fords that are starting to look like recent Mitsubishi's or 1979 to 1985 Alfa Romeos, where there wasn't the money to re-engineer the parts base to change the character of the cars. Ford is in danger of mainstreaming its component base to Thailand and China, and that puts car development in a straight jacket.

As it was with the GM letter cars, people know when they are being conned, and the Mazda/Ford shared bases are not diverse enough to give the customer what they need. They were with the first Mazda 6 and Mondeo. Fords Mondeo suffers from a total lack of continuity in Australian sales, as its too close to the Falcon in size, but too inept in chassis to be respected...its almost a Camry in that regard.

I'm adamant that these decisions are not etched in stone as much as people think.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #33 by Cool23 » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:54 pm

Interesting that you refer to the rear wheel drive and how that has become a mainstay of the design in Australia. On another forum I belong to reference was made about a Falcon or Commodore and how it was towing a car trailer. Tow capacity came into the topic and reference made how a similar vehicle possibly in the US could not tow like this.

The US market has better sales of Pickups and bigger vehicles suitable to tow. Australia has been on its own with design and rear wheel drive towing has been very different in many ways to the rest of the world. Even the Buggy spring was kept in the Falcon Wagon until Ford stopped making the Stationwagon. This gave the wagon a bigger towing capacity than that of the sedan.
The F series was built here but stopped and even more recently imported from Brazil yet Ford did not have a good market for that vehicle so they again stopped. very different to the Pickup sales in the US.

Global design has headed toward front wheel drive smaller cars so the Aussie market for towing Caravans, car trailers and boats is now directed towards that of the 4WD as the vehicle with towing capacity.

I fail to see how the rear wheel drive will be the next big thing when most see them as a dinosaur in design. Still the rear wheel drive is a very popular platform and for many reasons I have mentioned above so I am not disagreeing with you.

You covered more about Ford and how they have taken over to add technology. I am sure I covered before how Ford wanted the Diesel to use in the Territory and after doing this how they then sold of to TATA. How about the GT40, Ford tried hard to buy out the opposition and then went on to build the GT40 to compete with the competition. I can add I have heard many find the Diesel Territory a great vehicle to drive.

As for being etched in stone. I can not see the iconic Mustang going away from being rear wheel drive and I am sure many of the Falcon design features are now included in that vehicle and that may even include the independent rear suspension that was designed right here in Australia that has been used in the Falcon sedan.

One thing I can not see happening in Australia is a Mustang here in the future being purchased to replace a Falcon as a tow vehicle for the boat or caravan.

With the loss of Ford, GM (Holden) and Toyota it will be very interesting to see how the Global market converts or adapts to what they produce for the Aussie market given we are so different. The Falcon and the Commodore have both been built for the roads here all very different to say the Autobahns in Germany and the Concrete Highways of the USA.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #34 by xctasy » Sat Feb 22, 2014 3:10 am

I think your getting it. The Indians are more rear drive focused, despite the Nano, the Tata four wheel drives are loved. The Chinese can just swing to rear drive platforms in between the front drive sedans and the hardcore light pickups, but they haven't...yet. The MG 6 is a front and rear drive capable car like the old Rover 75 based MG ZT was when it got the Ford 4.6 Modular V8.

Don't forget, that technology is now Chinese, and they know what will sell. That's why the pick-up of forlorn Austin Rover junk was such a coup for China.

The Aussie Ford and Holden focus point should be on short departure and approach cars like the Toyota Altezza/MG ZT/BMW 3 size rear drivers, cars essentially Record/Omega/Commodore and Sierra/Scorpio sized. There is funding for cars like that, and a market. Its AMC Concorde like in their ability to become cheep SUV's with very good price per cost ratios. You can vary their visuals, but keep the basic sizes, and win sales. The substitution of Aussie engines and transmissions and deletion of cylinders to make Aussie content. The ideal was shown with the formerly front drive focus platform when it was shown in the V8 engined Focus conversion back in the Noughties.


It's that simple. It could be that Dearborn are purposely trying to avoid making small rear drivers agin, and its playing a waiting game. But right now, all my mates want rear drive Skylines, Altezzas, BMW 3's and rear drive Benzes....they hate front drive with a passion, and I might be a luddite, but my friends aren't.

The pendulum swing is on Front Wheel Drive Sucks T shirts and drift car racers and a generation of existing car buyers are going ae86. Toyotas GT86 is the new swinger, and Ford need to revise there plans, and start in Australia, not axe production. The Japs have gotten the message, but Ford Dearborn hasn't. Dummies for that.

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I'd say payed for Prodrive technology is now in the hands of the Chinese. Nanjing Automobile made the Rover 75 the MG 7 from after 2005, and since the MG ZT 260 design is now wholly owned by SAIC Motor. from the Rover 75 based Roewe 550. Slapping a hatch on the 75 platform to make it an MG 6 just fooled people...its reheated 75 tech, and a few rear or four wheel drive changes, and it would blitzkrieg der wereld if it were aggressively marketed.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #35 by 80broncoman » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:17 am

Cool23 wrote:Interesting that you refer to the rear wheel drive and how that has become a mainstay of the design in Australia. On another forum I belong to reference was made about a Falcon or Commodore and how it was towing a car trailer. Tow capacity came into the topic and reference made how a similar vehicle possibly in the US could not tow like this.
.........
I fail to see how the rear wheel drive will be the next big thing when most see them as a dinosaur in design. Still the rear wheel drive is a very popular platform and for many reasons I have mentioned above so I am not disagreeing with you. .

Here in the states in the 80's Chrysler went full throttle into FWDs and if you watched their ads they said anything else was a dinosaur. Then in 98 Daimler-Benz got them and they came up with the "Newer" LH cars which were mostly old E class mercades mechanicals complete with IRS and Mercades engine except for the New Hemi engines. No more mention at all of how much better FWD was after 1998 that i can remember.

Cool23 wrote:........
As for being etched in stone. I can not see the iconic Mustang going away from being rear wheel drive and I am sure many of the Falcon design features are now included in that vehicle and that may even include the independent rear suspension that was designed right here in Australia that has been used in the Falcon sedan.
..........

Back in 88 Ford came out with the Probe (a rounded FWD Mazda 626) And there was rumor that it was the Mustangs replacement. I have heard there was a revolt among Mustang purist that incuded many letters to FoMoCo explaining that a NO front wheel drive car would be considered a mustang by the masses as well.

xctasy wrote:......
It's that simple. It could be that Dearborn are purposely trying to avoid making small rear drivers agin, and its playing a waiting game. But right now, all my mates want rear drive Skylines, Altezzas, BMW 3's and rear drive Benzes....they hate front drive with a passion, and I might be a luddite, but my friends aren't.
..........

I think they certainly are avoiding RWD due to the fact FWD cars cost less labor to bolt together. That and the fact that 70% of the publice uses vehicle to just get from point A to point B and only care about that a how they look.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #36 by xctasy » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:02 pm

This is a faithful reprove. It feels like India trying to biff the British out in 1947. I know who's name is on the roof...FORD's, and in an era where big bucks are at stake, you need smart people to yield smart money. They provide the insight, then the divisions worldwide shell into the corporate funds.


Dearborn has in the past been anti Diesel, anti canted valve Cleveland ohv v8, anti IRS rear end, anti rear drive, anti unibody rear drive big car. And of course, now after 2016, anti I6. That's why Ford no longer sell 140000 cars per year here. Its not tougher competition, its its typical "lets just upsize the Mustang package" ethos which resulted in the race back to the Mustang II and Fox in 1974 to 1978. Its like the French Vadette V8, back then no one in Ford could get past the cost price matters for retooling metric small cars...bigger is better, bigger makes more money, so why not a bigger front drive or a 60 degree V6 with two more cylinders to make a v8, or a front drive with four wheel drive to make and Explorer. Yadda yadda yadda. Or add 50 hundredweight to a F100 and not have to emissions certify it as a car. Bingo, an F150. That's the way Ford US does it business. i aint judging the hardworking Ford Execs, but those US edicts don't work here. And Dearborn prunes back Ford Oz all the time because they just don't get the Strine market.

Meanwhile, Toyota in Australia has picked up all the excess and mopped the floor with Ford Dearborn's "nyet" corporate edicts to Ford Australia. So you find Diesel Tojo's everywhere, V8 Toyota's as grey import Lexuses with four wheel wishbone suspension and 240 hp for 800 dollars in my street being used as towcars, rear drive 170 and 200 hp IS 200/ Atlezzas being raced of Friday nights, and every one using there 2.8 or 3.0 liter 4 runner or SR5 to pull boats, and I6 Supras being loved an cosseted by young bloods. Ford is walking away from its Sierra/Escort FF 4wd platform, and a smaller, punchier Falcon is nowhere, just fat Mondeo's with a glorious Aston Martin nose but a confused underpinning making a very confused image. What happens when you decide not to sell a big car for three years in Aussie...it dies! What's happened in Aussie will happen everwhere if Ford doesn't give Australia a free hand to make those sales.

Ford Australia need to tell the more ignorant Ford Dearborn engineers that they need to get there heads outta there a$$es and do some proper research that even Toyota and Mitsubishi doesn't do. Nissan does, possibly because of the Datsun Stanza, Bluebird and Skyline work the former late Ford then Nissan the Ford again engineer Howard Marsden did with the Japs, the depth of understanding Nissan and now Renault have allow them to work on trans-axle four wheel drive specially cars.

In Australia, total supremacy of the Avalon, Camry and the Galant based Magna, Diamante and ill-fated 380 was thwarted by not being able to pull a boat out of a even a cement waterway, let alone a chip seal or gravel or stone stream access. Without 4wd, they don't have a chance. Any wide bodied Camry after 1992 to date won't even get up my street from the highway to my house. Shove an anti icing agent on a New Zealand chip seal, and a Camry or Taurus will have trouble hooking up on the flat towing a trailer. And that my friends is the damning reason why front drive always sucks on bigger cars here in Australasia. Past Fords C class, front drive is unable to put power to the ground on our sealed surface low polished stone value (PSV)roads. (At present, PSV [Polished Stone Value] is the only parameter relating to the microtexture properties of an aggregate which can be measured in a standardized manner and which has been related to traffic and site conditions. It remains an appropriate property to use in specifications, provided that its limitations are recognized.)

Image

See http://www.highwaysmaintenance.com/skidtext.htm

http://www.highwaysmaintenance.com/JPEG ... ndset1.jpg

In the US, you don't have to deal with low PSV roads, you use more hot mix asphalt, and base materials are clinker and slag and calcined bauxite to aid traction. Your skid pan results on US cars are through the roof, but in Australia and New Zealand, those same cars understeer like pigs because our roads have low PSV. We often use precoated chip, which reduces skid resistance. Then the percentage of unsealed roads is high, and all bigger front drive cars with a couple of exceptions under-steer and all bigger front drive cars loose traction when towing. There are exceptions...if you want your car to looking like an BMC 1800/Freeway or Austin Tasmin or Kimberly, you can still make a front driver work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin_Kimberley

The latest Explorer is pretty much an 1970 Kimberly anyway, wide enough for its power plants, and designed first as a fwd car, then four wheel drive after that . You can cross the dessert in a Kimberly or 1800, but you can't tow a trailer unless you give it 4 WD...

Image

In 1979, Ford Australia found 53% of every Falcon was equipped with a trailer hitch. Those stats haven't ever changed. Aussies and Kiwis love boating, shooting, footy and cricket, in a way foreign to most in America. The 1800, 2000 and 2200 cc overhead valve SUV Toyota SR5 and then the 4runner 2.4 and 2.8 diesels became the vehicle. Ford Australasia had an anti Peugeot Diesel philosophy...Ford used the Peugeot - Inadore Diesel from the Aussie Pug 504 and 505 on its European cars, where as Ford of Europe and Opel sold Granada's and Rekords with 2.3 diesels in them in huge numbers. The Aussies just loved rear drive Pugs with diesels.

The worst was that you couldn't combine four wheel drive with a diesel in any Aussie Ford for another 25 years after Toyota did it in its Landcruiser and Hiluxes. Dopey move on Fords part, especially when the F100 and Bronco were universally loved, but constantly under pushed for sale when the no Aussie v8 edict from Henry Ford ii was handed down in 1979.

Nowhere else are people as tough on unibody cars as the Aussies. Accounts of early Falcons losing wheels, ball joints and falling apart at the strut towers, TC Cortina station wagons loosing there rear end during towing, Opel Commodore B's breaking in half at the transmission tunnel are totally true. Rear drive cars are often hard to engineer, but they are also more adept in hard going washouts common in flood ridden non suburb Aussie roads


The smaller the rear drive car, the less modification you need to do. Rear drive Escorts and even the Front drive Toyo Kogyo Erika based Lasers and larger Telstars coped without modification because they were rated down for towing, and roads by 1980 were a lot better, but are still rough and high load roads by international standards. The Jap stuff was very harsh, and needed lots of suspenion work, but the Japs did that. Rear drive Skylines and Pintara's were very rigid cars. The problem is that Aussie peoples "occasional use" could involve just about anything, and there is no just take a Dodge Ram, F150 or Suburban, because they just don't sell unless your running a drilling company
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #37 by Cool23 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:43 pm

MustangSix wrote:And farewell Holden. This leaves only Toyota as a manufacturer in Oz.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/12/11/gm-m ... -official/

I imagine that GM will continue to sell cars in Australia, but they'll be built in China (and badged as Opel's).


Holden Dealers will be re-badged or re-branded as Chevrolet and what they sell will be the same except no Aussie built content.

Toyota has also pulled the pin and will stop manufacturing about the same time as Holden.
Last edited by Cool23 on Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #38 by Cool23 » Sat Feb 22, 2014 11:51 pm

80broncoman wrote:Back in 88 Ford came out with the Probe (a rounded FWD Mazda 626) And there was rumor that it was the Mustangs replacement. I have heard there was a revolt among Mustang purist that incuded many letters to FoMoCo explaining that a NO front wheel drive car would be considered a mustang by the masses as well.


I do recall that. About the same time the Aussie built Ford Capri was sold in the US as a Mercury Convertible. Based on the Mazda design but built by Ford as rear wheel drive.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #39 by Cool23 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:07 am

xctasy wrote:
In 1979, Ford Australia found 53% of every Falcon was equipped with a trailer hitch. Those stats haven't ever changed. Aussies and Kiwis love boating, shooting, footy and cricket, in a way foreign to most in America. The 1800, 2000 and 2200 cc overhead valve SUV Toyota SR5 and then the 4runner 2.4 and 2.8 diesels became the vehicle. Ford Australasia had an anti Peugeot Diesel philosophy...Ford used the Peugeot - Inadore Diesel from the Aussie Pug 504 and 505 on its European cars, where as Ford of Europe and Opel sold Granada's and Rekords with 2.3 diesels in them in huge numbers. The Aussies just loved rear drive Pugs with diesels.

The worst was that you couldn't combine four wheel drive with a diesel in any Aussie Ford for another 25 years after Toyota did it in its Landcruiser and Hiluxes. Dopey move on Fords part, especially when the F100 and Bronco were universally loved, but constantly under pushed for sale when the no Aussie v8 edict from Henry Ford ii was handed down in 1979.

Nowhere else are people as tough on unibody cars as the Aussies. Accounts of early Falcons losing wheels, ball joints and falling apart at the strut towers, TC Cortina station wagons loosing there rear end during towing, Opel Commodore B's breaking in half at the transmission tunnel are totally true. Rear drive cars are often hard to engineer, but they are also more adept in hard going washouts common in flood ridden non suburb Aussie roads


The smaller the rear drive car, the less modification you need to do. Rear drive Escorts and even the Front drive Toyo Kogyo Erika based Lasers and larger Telstars coped without modification because they were rated down for towing, and roads by 1980 were a lot better, but are still rough and high load roads by international standards. The Jap stuff was very harsh, and needed lots of suspenion work, but the Japs did that. Rear drive Skylines and Pintara's were very rigid cars. The problem is that Aussie peoples "occasional use" could involve just about anything, and there is no just take a Dodge Ram, F150 or Suburban, because they just don't sell unless your running a drilling company


The roads here played a big design in cars as the first Falcons just could not handle the conditions. Interesting fact on the Tow bars and for that matter the Diesel and Toyota who pushed hard when the Snowy river scheme was built and Toyota got the Diesel 4wd on the market.

As for the Ford Escort. That is a great car and was rallied well here just as it was in many parts of the world. My Grand Mother had an Escort from new from my Uncle as a Ford Dealer. Dealership has long gone as has my Gran but that Escort is still used daily and in very good order. On it second trip round on the speedo.

The Toyota Landcruiser would be the market leader here for towing as the US style pickup is just not popular like the Aussie Ute. What will replace the ute here ? We just have to wait and see. I doubt we will see any US pickups here as they can not build enough of them for the US market.

As for Chinese Cars well we see a few but when you see something like the Chery you wonder if the Chinese have learnt what a safe car is. Foton look like they may sell well but they have chosen to use the well known Cummins Engine so they have the name and reputation behind them and I expect Cummins would have a close check on what is built under license.

What ever happens next only time will tell as the market is in for a big change.

Spoke to a mate this week who works for a company making floor carpets for Toyota and he expects to be out of work well before Toyota shut and cease production here so what does that tell you ?
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #40 by Cool23 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:41 pm

MustangSix wrote:And farewell Holden. This leaves only Toyota as a manufacturer in Oz.


Toyota announced this back on the 10th of Feb well before you made that post. I think I would have posted about it some where in this topic. Maybe I missed it.

As from 2017 NO cars will be built in Australia by any of the big companies.

http://www.3aw.com.au/blogs/3aw-drive-b ... 32ckg.html

http://www.thecardriving.com/toyota-pla ... australia/
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #41 by MustangSix » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:58 pm

I somehow missed the Toyota announcement. That is indeed a blow to Australian manufacturing.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #42 by Cool23 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:39 pm

MustangSix wrote:I somehow missed the Toyota announcement. That is indeed a blow to Australian manufacturing.


A massive blow as no longer can we say we will manufacture cars here. Adding to that we have also lost ALCOA and almost lost Shell (has been taken over) and QANTAS will also shut the maintenance here at Avalon.

Ford, ALCOA, Shell and QANTAS (Located in Avalon) are all very close to the Geelong area.
Toyota in Altona and all very close together so a big hit for employment. Holden is based in Adelaide and that was also hit some year back when Mitsubishi shut down as well.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #43 by MustangSix » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:48 am

Pity.

I believe that wealth is generated by adding value to material. You dig something out of the ground, grow a tree, pump a liquid.....then you refine it, cut it, shape it, forge it and eventually turn it into something useful, consumable, or beautiful - fuel, furntiure, steel, wool, clothing, food....... The labor, management, and creativity that goes into every step of the process adds real value and increases the worth of the final product.

You don't attain the same result from manipulating currency or shuffling digital data. While there is money to be made, there isn't always value created in the process.

When whole nations start to give up wealth-creating activity in favor of money-making activity, the populace suffers and the income gap widens because the wealth will be concentrated with those who are money-making, not wealth-creating. The short term gains of money-making often look wonderful to the accountants, but miss the larger picture.

Australia and the USA didn't become great nations because we had great money exchanges. We became great because we had people who took what the land gave them, added sweat and imagination, and created something new that others would want. That model works only as long as we understand the difference between money and wealth.

Selling Chinese cars makes money. Building Australian cars creates wealth. They are NOT the same thing.

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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #44 by 80broncoman » Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:46 pm

X2 on a very good post.

And more importantly a great point!!
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #45 by Cool23 » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:24 pm

MustangSix wrote:
Good luck to you and to us......


What we are seeing is a global change in the way we do many things. In time we will see just how all these changes affect us all both in Australia and in the USA as well as in Europe and for that matter in Asia.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #46 by xctasy » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:01 pm

Cool23 wrote:
MustangSix wrote:
Good luck to you and to us......


What we are seeing is a global change in the way we do many things. In time we will see just how all these changes affect us all both in Australia and in the USA as well as in Europe and for that matter in Asia.



Thanks. But in this instance, someones playing bodyline tactics, and its about time for the details to be leaked by a new Bill Woodfull.

I do not want to see you, Mr Ford. There are two teams out there. One is making cars with health, safety and environmental consideration and the others you compare us to, are not...


I think in this instance, being a spectator in 'wait and see' will get us to place much less advantageous to where the British are now. They are at least a massive assembler of 1.5 million cars and trucks a year from Nissan, Ford, BMW and specialty models from Aston Martin and Jaguar Land Rover.

A more German, self believing and industrious response is needed. Right this instance, Aussies have critical production mass to push there way through to key markets in the Middle East, UAE, parts of Asia Pacific and certainly the UK and Europe. I don't buy the abject, New Zealand style 'lets not use public money to support a private enterprise company'. It is just that partnership which created Holden in the first instance, and then kept Land Rover, Jag, and the Mini a UK business prospect, and if the prospect of picking Austin Rover up for free wasn't so alluring to the Chinese, English Tax payer money would be currently returned to Pommy coffers by a pruned Austin Rover. The sales of little cars and Rover 75 sized cars has always been there. especially the early Fox Mustang size, T type Jag market. Why else would anyone try and buy Jaguar, Land Rover, Aston Martin, Bentley and Rolls Royce...because they were four and rear wheel drive configurations who others at the time said had no real value. They did have value, they created it by better design and engineering than anyone else, the ability to execute the design reliably was what Ford contributed, as mass production creates reliability.

Public money was just what protected Ssangyong's butt from SAIC's violation of Korean law and company regulations pertaining to access to Daimler Benz propriety knowledge. And doesn't China thrive because it uses nothing but what is deemed as public money. C'mon! Aussies opting out of car making is unthinkable. You guys do it well, and you can make a motza doing it.

I've got an old Rover 75, probably the last almost 100% English designed and made mass market car. This is what is being remade in China as the SAIC MG/Roewe 550, MG 6 and Nanjing Automobile MG 7 from the old MG Rover tooling. With a low deck Falcon I6 and rear drive conversion to it, MGZT style, it would package up as cool as an early V8 Ford Focus. After-all, ProDrive, (which is Subarus and Aston Martin Tickfords car sorting subcontractor), converted the Rover 75 from fwd to rear drive, and made the 4.6 Ford V8 engined 260 and 290 MG ZT-T's what they were in 2005, and dynamically and size wise, that's where Ford need to be in Australia from that time to right now, with Falcon and Territory vehicles as shoots off a common base. The Chinese just added 5" to the Nanjing Automobile MG 7's wheel base, and it looks like the PRC steps are to making proper volume car production in the traditional pre 2007 Ford Australia style, with SUV, LWB and SWB versions sharing tooling and cost amortization.

And that, my friends, is a crime since Ford Australia should be building smaller cars like that with 4.08" bore spacing in line engines, PBR brakes, Tristar steering, Dana diffs, VDO controls and Ford versions of the ZF gearboxes, and the capability to be fwd, rwd and 4x4. Its all about not stonewalling, but being active and vital.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #47 by Cool23 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:21 am

Well when I say wait and see I want to see if they get it right this time. Will Ford sell the Mustang here (well that is what they tell us they are going to sell here) but will it sell like the Falcon ? Personally I do not think it will as it is a performance car like the Falcon GT or the XR6.

Will any of these companies get it right with what they bring into the country ? GM ? Toyota ?
What will replace the Falcon and the Commodore ? Will it fall apart on our Aussie Roads ?
This is what I say when I say wait and see.

Now as for the Industry I am involved in I am already seeing and hearing changes. What this forum is about is the Inline Six and I can tell you it will not die here it is an Aussie Icon.

Ford's earlier engines from the 170 to the cross flow and Holden's 179 and 202 engines from all models will still be well chased in the wrecking yards for many years and my guess well sort after for many years to come. The Performance and Modified side of the industry will side step and change in new directions but I can see growth happening and changing in many ways even now.
You can buy enough panels to build a new XW or XY from Rare Spares just as you can buy a steel body 1932 Ford in the US.

Aussie ingenuity is already looking at many things and I have been made aware that some companies are stepping up with new ideas. Davies Craig (http://www.daviescraig.com.au/ ) recently went to SEMA and the other Performance trade show in Florida and the electric water pump they make is being exported to many places as well as the fans. An Aussie invention the EWP. I think we will see more of this sort of change and I for one am not going to be sitting on my hands whilst it happens.

As for Ford Australia and for that matter what we can say once was Holden and Toyota Australia they will soon just be market arms for the parent companies In the US and Japan. Although Ford appears to be keeping some design and engineering etc. here given they had some input into the Mustang.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #48 by Cool23 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:43 pm

Ford have already told us we will not see a US based Pickup here as they can not make enough for the US market so what will replace the Aussie Ute ? Ford also tried to sell the Made in Brasil based F Series truck but the quality was not good enough for the roads here and they only lasted a very short time. When I say wait and see well I want to see if they can get it right as the F Series Import was a failure.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #49 by 80broncoman » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:20 pm

Cool23 wrote:Ford have already told us we will not see a US based Pickup here as they can not make enough for the US market so what will replace the Aussie Ute ? Ford also tried to sell the Made in Brasil based F Series truck but the quality was not good enough for the roads here and they only lasted a very short time. When I say wait and see well I want to see if they can get it right as the F Series Import was a failure.


Has anyone done a poll in OZ to see what the buying public wants to buy? I'd think gently used Fords have just shot up in value down under.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #50 by bubba22349 » Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:51 pm

X2 maybe also do a big Australia wide write in campaign to Ford several times that has worked well in the USA to get special models built. But the biggest one was to save the Mustang as a rear driver platform over replacing it with the Probe front driver. And the Probe did not last very long or sell all that well after the newnest wore off. I wished we could have gotten the Oz version of the late Falcons here and I think they would sell very well.
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