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Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

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Cool23
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #51 by Cool23 » Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:37 pm

80broncoman wrote:Has anyone done a poll in OZ to see what the buying public wants to buy? I'd think gently used Fords have just shot up in value down under.


You get sick of companies doing phone market surveys. Ford used to do one by mail when you purchased a new car or you had a service. Most of the surveys done by phone are from India or the Philippines so you get pissed off very quickly when they call.

bubba22349 wrote:X2 maybe also do a big Australia wide write in campaign to Ford several times that has worked well in the USA to get special models built. But the biggest one was to save the Mustang as a rear driver platform over replacing it with the Probe front driver. And the Probe did not last very long or sell all that well after the newnest wore off. I wished we could have gotten the Oz version of the late Falcons here and I think they would sell very well.


Well writing to Ford here will do nothing now they have pulled the pin on manufacturing here and in fact Holden and Toyota will possibly not listen much to what we Aussies have to say. I doubt Ford will build a car just to Import to Australia.
The Aussie Falcon was a great car. Big enough to tow a decent car trailer or Caravan or the boat. Problem was it was to big for many and sales of bigger cars have been failing over the years as cars like the Mazda 6 win car of the year here. I am sure it (Falcon) would have sold in other places if a left hand drive version was built. After all the Holden Commodore was sold in the US (not sure what it is badged as) and it was also sold to other parts of the world as a Chevrolet.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #52 by MustangSix » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:53 am

The Monaro was rebadged for a time as the Pontiac G8 and the GTO. Actually, it took significant rework to make it fit the US requirements.

It's back this year as the Chevy SS.

http://www.chevrolet.com/ss-sports-sedan.html

Oddly enough, it looks like Chevrolet may built these in the US and sell them in Oz as the Holden Commodore.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/12/19/chev ... n-america/
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #53 by Cool23 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:07 pm

MustangSix wrote:The Monaro was rebadged for a time as the Pontiac G8 and the GTO. Actually, it took significant rework to make it fit the US requirements.

It's back this year as the Chevy SS.

http://www.chevrolet.com/ss-sports-sedan.html

Oddly enough, it looks like Chevrolet may built these in the US and sell them in Oz as the Holden Commodore.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/12/19/chev ... n-america/


That is the marketing at work from GMH ( Holden) Why would those in the US want to buy an Imported Chevrolet ? Mind you I have seen the Export version here and it has more than the locally sold version.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #54 by bubba22349 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:27 pm

:hmmm: I can think of a couple of reasons they would import them, main one is since the Government took over part of General Motors and the Union has ended up with the other part. I use to be in the UAW many years ago when worked at Ford all I can say the Quality has really dropped on the GM stuff these last few years was like that at Chrysler too until they were bough out by Mercedes. I doubt it will be much longer before all the GM cars are built in China.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #55 by 80broncoman » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:04 pm

Cool23 wrote:
MustangSix wrote:The Monaro was rebadged for a time as the Pontiac G8 and the GTO. Actually, it took significant rework to make it fit the US requirements.

It's back this year as the Chevy SS.

http://www.chevrolet.com/ss-sports-sedan.html

Oddly enough, it looks like Chevrolet may built these in the US and sell them in Oz as the Holden Commodore.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/12/19/chev ... n-america/


That is the marketing at work from GMH ( Holden) Why would those in the US want to buy an Imported Chevrolet ? Mind you I have seen the Export version here and it has more than the locally sold version.


Here You would be amazed at how many people are blind to where their vehicle is built. Even people that work in manufacturing are even lost to it. when thy look at a Chevrolet SS, Silverado Truck , or Chevy Spark all they see is Chevy Not OZ, Mexico, and South Korea.

bubba22349 wrote::hmmm: I can think of a couple of reasons they would import them, main one is since the Government took over part of General Motors and the Union has ended up with the other part. I use to be in the UAW many years ago when worked at Ford all I can say the Quality has really dropped on the GM stuff these last few years was like that at Chrysler too until they were bough out by Mercedes. I doubt it will be much longer before all the GM cars are built in China.


GM has started making more and more part in China for many years. Some times you even see it in the domestic content windo stickers.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #56 by Cool23 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:16 pm

Interesting comment as many here re-badge the Commodore as Chevrolet. Sign of the times I guess. I wonder if after Holden close if many will try to re-badge the Chevrolet as a Holden ? :twisted: :oops:

Same goes here, as what you have as the Chevrolet Cruze is presently sold and badged here as a Holden Cruze but I am sure it is not built here.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #57 by 80broncoman » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:35 pm

Cool23 wrote:Interesting comment as many here re-badge the Commodore as Chevrolet. Sign of the times I guess. I wonder if after Holden close if many will try to re-badge the Chevrolet as a Holden ? :twisted: :oops:

Same goes here, as what you have as the Chevrolet Cruze is presently sold and badged here as a Holden Cruze but I am sure it is not built here.

What does the VIN serial number start with? if its a 1,3, or 4 its made in north america.

Here is what lead up to that.
Years ago Chev stopped building the RWD Caprice 1996 (If I remember right)Which was slightly behind Ford in cop car sales and right then they started touting their FWD caprice cruiser complete with a 3.8V6 :rolflmao: . Chrysler was selling their LHS FWD cars as police cars I not sure I have EVER seen one)
GM really did Expect the police departments to buy the NEW FWD cars just like they did the old RWD cars.......It didn't happen. This left Ford as being the only seller of RWD cop cars. So It really boosted Crown Vic sales big time.

Fast forward to 2011 Ford quit making the RWD Crown Vic and Now Chrsyler has the Only RWD police car made in North America.
Ford is wanting police agencys to buy the new taurus SHO as police cruisers but all it really did was sell more Chargers. :bang:

So Now GM want to see if they can sell some RWD cop cars and have a civilian model while they are at it.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #58 by Cool23 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:09 am

I have never looked at to see a number but then GM could build them (Cruze) in multiple places and not just the US. Ford after all build the small cars (Fiesta & Focus) in both Spain and South Africa as well as Thailand the name may change in the different locations.

Interesting about the Police Cars as I have seen the Holden Commodore in Saudi Arabia a A Police Car and I believe it was also used in the US as a Police car.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #59 by Cool23 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:57 pm

Interesting to watch the Clipsal Supercar race on the weekend as it is no longer Ford & Holden.
Nissan, Mercedes and Volvo have no joined as well. Is this the future we see ?
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #60 by MustangSix » Mon Mar 03, 2014 12:15 pm

I was premature. The SS will be built on Oz until shortly before the 2017 shutdown, and is expected to move to the US then.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #61 by Cool23 » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:10 pm

MustangSix wrote:I was premature. The SS will be built on Oz until shortly before the 2017 shutdown, and is expected to move to the US then.


After that I guess it will be then imported here as a new model.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #62 by xctasy » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:46 am

Dearborn is being very stupid regards rear drive big cars, and Chrysler, like it did with the Viper V10, the Cummings Diesel, is niche marketing with the 300.

Which is also diesel down here.

Yes, anti in line, anti rear drive, anti diesel.


And Anti Australian Innovation.


Dingbats. I should buy a Great Wall now and fall on my sword....


Ford could still import the Ford Falcon in long wheelbase form to cover the market.


Then there would be the sales critical mass to do a US 1966 Fairlane from a US 66 Falcon style long door and different wheel arch mods, unlike our ugly and downright offensive too short wAgon door and filler window glasshouse like the 79 to 2007 LTD's and Fairlanes ran.

The cost price issue is then getting closer to being sorted. The cost of doing the shipping and production upgrades could be offset by US Union engine/trans production going right to Australia with no 'complementation', ie, no local labor added. Then US captive market niche parts could allow a full same engine/trans on the F150, and some kind of push into making a very slightly smaller pre 1983 style F100 variant to the Aussie market. Aussies aren't against full chassis pickups. An Aussie 4.0 turbo common rail inline diesel based on the Barra engine could then be added.

There is a huge market for bigger SUV's and trucks, the US trucks can sell, but they need to be a little trimmer, and have the right options for the recreational crowed.


Then the question of what the FG Falcon base can be downsized to for volume sales. A move to the T6, Falcon and a unibody FG based short wheelbase car. 4.08" bore spacing, drop a cylinder, make a 3.3 engine small car.

Its looking like McPherson and the five cylinder compact car of 1947 all over again.

I'll bet the whizkids that laid down there all lookin after Aussie and Kiwis during the yellow peril invasion wouldn't pull funding from a forwarding thinking bunch of Aussies like we have today in Ford Australia.

Lookes like its time for a Please Reconsider memo to Dearborn...
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #63 by Cool23 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:27 pm

Do you check any information before you post ? Cummins has no G. :D

I suggest you buy a Foton Tunland and it has a Cummins. From all reports the Chinese have that one right. Cummins have enforced the quality of the Foton built Cummins after all it is using the CUMMINS name that has a stamp of quality. :wink:

If Ford got it right how could they export a Falcon ? They have failed and will not build it here after 2017.

Also of interest at present is QANTAS. Priced an Air Fair recently with QANTAS and it was over $3000-00 and a longer route with another Airline was just over $1000-00 AU.

Not sure what to make of that but I know if I go belly up like Ford, Holden and Toyota here I do not think the Govt will bail me out. Not sure how QANTAS competes with other airlines but it is all about keeping workers in this country.

It is happening here and jobs are being lost to to other countries. If it happens here it can also happen in the US and NZ.

As for the innovation well that is happening in many other places. On the news QANTAS and FORD workers that have been laid off have been taken on by a wheel manufacturer. :beer:
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #64 by xctasy » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:18 am

The issue is that for some time its been uneconomic to make cars in the US, so Ford works hard with there US unions to keep engine, component and whole car lines in the USA, by augmenting its line with cost savers from overseas, so the total line up cost is reduced.


In the past, in Germany and England, same thing. Even screwing together Japanese cars with robots, British Leyland found it really hard to make a profit due to the cost of labor. The Germans did it another way, they used there expensive components suppliers, and sold ZF patents to the Japs on the cheep to keep German recirculating ball units and injection in Datsuns, and then spearheaded the very expensive second year garage sale on ZF gearboxes, Bosch injection and ABS systems...went hard on aluminium bodies with Audi, which Ford is copying Range Rover/Land Rover style for the F150 and maybe Bronco. And gasoline VW engines to AMC, Chrysler, Diesel and Gasoline VW Audi engines to the Chinese via there Nissan made Santana. And VW diesel engines to Volvo.

One diesel, Falcon I6 based engine could be sold as 4, 5 or 6 cylinders to five car makers I can think of. That was just what Benz did, they made turbo diesels like sausage machines, at high price to the US.

The Aussies cheap bauxite is just the ticket for alloy panels and turrets, and the components suppliers are very good, and should be playing with reliable, whole of life costed out items which don't have surreptitiously downgraded parts like the Chinese. The Government controls protectionism, and can network with Ford, GM and Toyota. The alternative is that the whole of Aussie production goes away, and with it, any chance of making the rising cost of Asian market production be counteracted with focused, Australian resolve to compete.

Especially when the buying patterns of car owners is becoming more conservative. Aussie cars have a very endearing character, and they can sell well internationally, even if building them is four times the cost of Asia. It is in Germany...
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #65 by Cool23 » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:31 am

You keep forgetting FORD purchased Jaguar Rover to get the Diesel Technology for the Aussie Falcon based Territory. The Diesel engine in those is is pretty good. Once they had that they sold off Jaguar Rover to the Indian company TATA. I think the Diesel Territory technology will live on in something different in the future like the US F150 as the US market is screaming for a Diesel in that size vehicle just as the Chinese have shown the small Electronic Cummins can sell in the Foton pickup and 4x4.

A good example of the things you refer to can be seen with Cummins as they have engines built by both Dong Feng (East Wind Motor Company) and Foton. Both are Chinese. Cummins build plenty of B Series engines in the US and most of these get used in the Pickup not leaving anything much to export out of the USA. From this you have to ask how do Cummins survive in other parts of the world like Australia ? All Cummins Engines here are imported. I have a Don Feng 6BT (12 valve) in my 1948 Truck. The Engine could have been built in the US, UK, or any of the other plants still building that B series based Engine. Just so happens mine came from Dong Feng China. Prior to that I had a UK built Cummins. The quality standard is kept no matter the build location and we could easily exchange or swap parts from both engines. If a company like Cummins can do this then so should Ford, Holden and Toyota. Sadly they have not chosenthat path and these 3 have gone.

As for Leyland. History still has the P76 and it may have been what Leyland needed but we will never know as they went just as Chrylser (Rootes Group & Mitsubishi), VW, Nissan, Renault did in the past.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #66 by 80broncoman » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:44 am

xctasy wrote:......
Lookes like its time for a Please Reconsider memo to Dearborn...


with your writing skills, I'd go for a full blown Global Petition. Tell them with all the other car makes gone
they are sure to make money as I am sure there people in Australia that might not be ford fan but will buy
a Ford over a import.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #67 by xctasy » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:36 am

I can't do the job that Aussies should do. The platforms the Chinese picked up, old Austin Rover stuff which was bmw designed for easy retro fit to raer drive is what is needed. How can you flog a 10 year old Rover 75 and make money....but controlling the cost of the build. What the Aussies need to do is follow the mass produced bases that the FT 86 and Altezza rwd platforms make work, what Holden should have gone towards in 2004, they are the future. GM USA got its Sigma platform cheep from the Aussies, then ran. The Falcon platform will die unless there is a compromise on the existing economies of scale, and a change back to one common rear drive base. For the sake of a commodity price change that is China invoked and Dearborn uses as an excuse.

Engineering wise, these issues just don't get answered.

Look at the Police Interceptor Taurus. http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/0 ... an-taurus/

1. Why the heck does it need an AWD option in a high surface polished stone value world of America? Answer. FWD is inadequate in any pursuit, not just those above the Mason Dixon line.

2. Where is the lost four inches in cabin width, Answer? Ford lied

3. Where is the dog leg loss in legroom compared to the Crown Vic. Answer? Nowhere, its gone

4. Why is the rear view BLIS set-up mandatory? Answer? The front drive package and width loss has forced FoMoCo to go higher in the trunk to make up for the width loss.

5. Why after the horrors of the redesigned rear door from the 96 Taurus has the front door been so compromised compared to the Crown Vic. It is after all a front drive car with minimal front a pillar to ifs center line distance. Answer. The target fixation about getting the rear door great for law enforcement has made a hash of the front, without consideration to donut eating cops life.

Its a massively lousy taxi...


Sorry Dearborn and Broadmedows, but one dissenting Kiwi voice isn't enough of a spark to goad 20 odd million Aussies to support there own industry.

Follow the trail of blood from ditched former Aussie CEO's...
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #68 by Cool23 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:34 pm

xctasy wrote:Sorry Dearborn and Broadmedows, but one dissenting Kiwi voice isn't enough of a spark to goad 20 odd million Aussies to support there own industry.

Follow the trail of blood from ditched former Aussie CEO's...


Your voice is too late. Many have been voiceing issues here for some time. To build a car here is simply too expensive. The CEO ditching is not only in the Auto Industry. Internet marketing has killed off many other things and we may even see Myer take over David Jones to create some Super Stores in retail. ALCOA and SHELL are two other names that come into play here as to what the future will be. ALCOA is also in the Geelong Ford area.

At present a Norwegian car carrier is searching for a lost Malaysian plane MH-370. It is in the southern ocean south west of Perth. I wonder how many of those cars will rust given the detour of that ship.

As for the Falcon the name is to be retired and only some of the design and engineering ideas may live on in other Fords. Not to become Political but the Government in South Aust went to the elections and it voted to stay labor. I wonder if this was feed back from Holden workers for lack of support for what was already looking like the flogging of a dead horse.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #69 by xctasy » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:18 am

This is my last post on this. I guess I've flogged the dead horse.

Look at Toyota, it has shut down all its specialty models, and gone straight to low cost base front drive packages, except for the Lexus models.

Love to know how Dearborn can react to the drift Toyota's now that there is no other real rear drive choice.

I'll always love Fords, but Dearborn have outsourced to the wrong continent, and Aussies won't buy reheated Chinese cars and trucks based on Nissans and MG's...Aussies will just grab there old full chassis utility pick-ups, and slap in reworked engines into them like Kiwis do. And they will remember what Ford, GM and Toyota did to them in the quest just to make a buck. Report card says an F for Fail on antipodean production economics, Dearborn.

Toyota, full marks for trying to make the Camry and Avalon no 1 in Australia in the 90's and Noughties...it failed because front drive cars don't work in the D and E class size ranges. If Toyota can't do it, no-one else can.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #70 by Cool23 » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:49 pm

Yes, you nailed it all that time, we can flog that dead Horse till the Cows come home but it will not change what has and is happening to the Car Industry in this country. Many who have and will be out of work will not be happy and will remember what those three motor companies have done.

As for LEXUS, did you know that stands for - Luxury EXport US market.

I am the first person in my family in three generations that will most likely be not able to buy a Ford assembled or built in Australia.

In the last six years I have seen the smaller Ford country dealerships being forced to close and see the lack of personal service of the bigger Ford dealerships not care if your 'product' is working as it should after they have taken hours to do a service.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #71 by MustangSix » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:41 am

One immutable rule is that nature abhors a vacuum. If there truly is a market, someone will fill it.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #72 by Cool23 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:05 pm

MustangSix wrote:One immutable rule is that nature abhors a vacuum. If there truly is a market, someone will fill it.


That will be interesting to see after Ford, Holden and Toyota pull out all cars here will be Imported. I doubt another Company will look at it being viable to build cars here.

The only exception will be specialist vehicles like TOM CAR or the Military BUSHMASTER being built for a small market.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #73 by Invectivus » Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:55 am

I'm curious -
Is there a significant price point difference (to the consumer) between Aus-built and import cars? Has the price of cars undergone significant increase lately?
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #74 by Cool23 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:38 pm

Invectivus wrote:I'm curious -
Is there a significant price point difference (to the consumer) between Aus-built and import cars? Has the price of cars undergone significant increase lately?


The cost to build cars here became expensive. An import car often got a luxury tax. I guess that will change once we no longer make cars in Australia. Aussie built cars would compare price wise to cars in other countries. The top of the range Ford and Holden would compare to the quality of a luxury BMW as well as compare in price.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #75 by 80broncoman » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:46 pm

I thought this was one topic

Story of the last Falcon GTs made

https://autos.yahoo.com/news/ford-annou ... 05909.html

......
The new special edition will be called the Falcon GT F, and is expected to feature a supercharged version of Ford’s 5.0-liter ‘Coyote’ V-8 tuned to deliver close to 470 horsepower. The current Falcon GT models already feature this engine, but with output tuned to 450 horsepower. A six-speed manual will be standard with a six-speed automatic offered as an option.
......



450HP NA / 470HP With a blower? 5% more??
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #76 by redxm » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:54 am

NSW Highway patrol built/had built a 400kw GT as an anniversary car. (Thats 536hp!)

http://performancedrive.com.au/wp-conte ... -car-2.jpg
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #77 by 80broncoman » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:36 pm

redxm wrote:NSW Highway patrol built/had built a 400kw GT as an anniversary car. (Thats 536hp!)

http://performancedrive.com.au/wp-conte ... -car-2.jpg


I liked the Boss 400 on the side.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #78 by Cool23 » Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:14 am

So I wonder what the next generation of Police Cars will be after the big 3 close ?
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #79 by MustangSix » Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:59 am

Three questions:

1. With approx 30 speed cameras per resident in Oz, where would you ever use 500+ hp?
2. Why would the police bother to chase you down? Just let the cameras do their job and pick you up later.
3. Are the cameras bulletproof? :twisted:
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #80 by Cool23 » Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:27 pm

MustangSix wrote:Three questions:

1. With approx 30 speed cameras per resident in Oz, where would you ever use 500+ hp?
2. Why would the police bother to chase you down? Just let the cameras do their job and pick you up later.
3. Are the cameras bulletproof? :twisted:


What does this have to do with the loss of vehicle manufacturing in this country ?

1, 30 per resident Those figures sound very odd. Do you think we have more roads than people ?
As for 500hp did you not invent Drag Racing in the USA. We also have the long white Dyno called Lake Gairdner that is bigger and better than Bonneville.

2, They only chase the ones they need to and yes the bill comes in the mail or you front court and if that fails the Sherrif finds you and clamps your car until it is paid.

3, No but then to get a gun here requires much more than getting a drivers license and why shoot a camera when it has digitally photographed you. A paintball gun would have better effect :evil:
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #81 by 80broncoman » Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:17 pm

Cool23 wrote:
MustangSix wrote:Three questions:

1. With approx 30 speed cameras per resident in Oz, where would you ever use 500+ hp?
2. Why would the police bother to chase you down? Just let the cameras do their job and pick you up later.
3. Are the cameras bulletproof? :twisted:


What does this have to do with the loss of vehicle manufacturing in this country ?

1, 30 per resident Those figures sound very odd. Do you think we have more roads than people ?
As for 500hp did you not invent Drag Racing in the USA. We also have the long white Dyno called Lake Gairdner that is bigger and better than Bonneville.

2, They only chase the ones they need to and yes the bill comes in the mail or you front court and if that fails the Sherrif finds you and clamps your car until it is paid.

3, No but then to get a gun here requires much more than getting a drivers license and why shoot a camera when it has digitally photographed you. A paintball gun would have better effect :evil:


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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #82 by MustangSix » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:28 am

Cool23 wrote:
MustangSix wrote:Three questions:

1. With approx 30 speed cameras per resident in Oz, where would you ever use 500+ hp?
2. Why would the police bother to chase you down? Just let the cameras do their job and pick you up later.
3. Are the cameras bulletproof? :twisted:


What does this have to do with the loss of vehicle manufacturing in this country ?

1, 30 per resident Those figures sound very odd. Do you think we have more roads than people ?
As for 500hp did you not invent Drag Racing in the USA. We also have the long white Dyno called Lake Gairdner that is bigger and better than Bonneville.

2, They only chase the ones they need to and yes the bill comes in the mail or you front court and if that fails the Sherrif finds you and clamps your car until it is paid.

3, No but then to get a gun here requires much more than getting a drivers license and why shoot a camera when it has digitally photographed you. A paintball gun would have better effect :evil:


Tongue in cheek humor......

I suppose my point is that if you make the driving experience too tedious and fraught with regulation and oversight, then it ceases to be an enjoyable experience. Receiving a ticket from an automaton for exceeding the speed limit by only a mile or two has to be irritating.

When driving becomes too irritating, you simply choose the least expensive appliance that will accomplish the task, much like buying a refrigerator. At that point, what does it matter where the car is built? Lowest cost to achieve a given result. Pity.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #83 by Cool23 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:40 pm

We all hate the red light cameras and the speeding cameras. Given the sense of humor you may enjoy this and yes it is a true story.

A camera car was using a truck rest area to photograph speeding cars as they came over a rise.
Problem was he was partly blocking the area. Typical Aussie Truckie comes along in his B Double and parks beside the camera car blocking him in. A short time later the Truckie has a tap on his truck window and is asked to move. The response is "No Mate I am on a designated rest break according to the log book and if I move now I would be in violation and it is you that should not be parked in this location". Result Camera car packed up and moved off after he worked out how to get out from being blocked in. I am sure the camera car was never used in that location again. Truckie used all the rules in his favor and was within the law as to what he was doing. Camera car was technically illegally parked in what was designated as Truck rest area and not for cars.

:lol: :D
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #84 by MustangSix » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:25 pm

Use the law! Here in Florida, the courts have ruled that it is permissible under our First Amendment rights to flash our lights to warn other drivers of speed traps. If the objective is to slow people down, then I figure I'm assisting the cops by doing so. If they object, then their intent must simply be to raise revenue.

But back to the subject, I still fail to understand how the automakers will be able to respond to local market conditions. Driving in Oz is not at all like Japan, China, or Singapore. And there are customer expectations that surely has to drive design criteria.

Just as the Japanese and Germans eventually had to move design centers and production facilities to the US, I suspect that eventually they will need to do the same in Australia.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #85 by Cool23 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:05 pm

The interesting thing to come out of much of it is the Design centres are being kept here by both Ford and GM. Ford Australia design team recently had some input into the new Mustang.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #86 by xctasy » Tue May 06, 2014 10:51 am

Cool23 wrote:The interesting thing to come out of much of it is the Design centres are being kept here by both Ford and GM. Ford Australia design team recently had some input into the new Mustang.


Unrelated to the detail of my topic sentence, but in positive response to your post Cool23. Proof that Ford Australia's design talent and Government money has made the T6 (a Mazda BT50 and Aussie Ranger) the standout success

http://www.caradvice.com.au/ford/ranger/

If you'd like something positive and affirming in tone, this is certainly it.

Note left hand drive in Thailand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn4hi_n0mFI


In right hand drive form, it crashed like a champ making an NCAP 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44UXH4AvOnY

What gets me is that AutoAlliance Thailand (ATT) manufacturing joint venture will boost production by 20,000 units annually, taking total utility capacity at the Rayong-based plant to 140,000 per year...
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #87 by MustangSix » Tue May 06, 2014 11:57 am

I was surprised to see the pricing for the upmarket versions. I think the total market here in the US for a Ranger priced at $55,000 US is exactly zero.......
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #88 by xctasy » Wed May 07, 2014 2:47 am

Point taken. On the basis of the dollar value of various ores, Aussie beef, property, and the investment prospects, the Aussie dollar has failed to collapse against the US dollar, with a 1 Aussie buck 0.93 US dollars, so the base 2.2 ins about 32 K US, and the upmarket 3.2 is 53 K.They are all diesel,no gasoline. A US sourced or Aussie based i4 or i5 based on the i6 won't sell, but would reduce the cost significantly.

The cost of the T6 is is more a reflection on how bankrupt the US is...outsourcing is a real solution to the problems of the US economy and personal debt issues. In Australia, its the intense cost that forces many to think that perhaps the job market and production costings needs to collapse in a similar manner to the USA. The unions, and public have negotiated, and the cost is what it is. The alternative is a Kiwi or Dotcom style aggressive collapse scenario, where everyone becomes a Mexican with a cell phone, and un-unionised to chase the illusion of reducing costs to 1 forth of present. That won't happen; unlike New Zealand, Australia isn't full of fraudsters looking for tax breaks, and based on health, safety and environmental matters, Australia can never go back to the low levels of health, safety, environmental and worker remuneration...its a developed country, not Bhopal or Rayong or Shanghai.

As stated, the Germans would just raise the price, and over feature the Aussie Ranger, and then reuse the parts for sell-off to other countries by creating patents to sell.

Without the support and will of its owner, Ford Australia has no chance of doing that.

Anyway, diplomacy has been undertaken, and on the basis of just the cost of steel, aluminum and labor, the Aussie car is dead as a mass produced entity, despite the desire of other countries to buy into cars the Aussie likes to drive, Ford Austraila failed to get pemission to build the Ranger and Focus in Oz.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #89 by MustangSix » Wed May 07, 2014 9:30 am

Just for comparison, I went to the Ford USA site and "built" the priciest F150 I could. I was hard pressed to hit $55k, even including every option in the book on the most upscale model they list. It ends up with all kinds of stuff like a 5.0 V8, 20" special wheels and tires, leather & alacantra seats, NAV, moonroof, and tons of other little nonsense things.

I don't think you can attribute the price difference entirely to the cost of labor. The materials alone must approach 80% of the cost of a vehicle. The total amount of direct labor hours is probably about the same no matter where you build the car. So even if you cut the cost of labor in half, it's a very small percentage of total costs. That leaves only the indirect costs to attribute - Overhead, fringe, general & administrative costs, etc. Then add in profit. I doubt that Ford Aus is earning a usury rate on each vehicle, so it really has to come down to the overhead efficiency of the operation.

This really gets too complex to elaborate on in a forum like this, but I truly suspect that it's not the cost of the workforce, but rather all the non-labor costs that drove all the auto manufacturers out of Oz. If that's truly the case, they will find themselves loosing money no matter where the cars are built.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #90 by Cool23 » Wed May 07, 2014 6:46 pm

You forget that globally whilst you had a downturn in finances in the US we had a boom here in Australia (Mostly export in Mining and Iron Ore) and when things leveled out again the playing field changed and you could build the same vehicle in Asia a lot cheaper.

You can build many things in Asia much cheaper. Look at firms like Bob Drake Reproductions for example as 90% of what he does is made in Asia cheaper than he can do it in the US and as he is in it to make money as he produces product where he can make a better profit. Ford Australia have done the same thing.

Many places making parts for Ford here are looking to the future and diversifying now so many believe Ford Australia will fold well before the date they gave.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #91 by xctasy » Thu May 08, 2014 11:25 pm

MustangSix wrote:That leaves only the indirect costs to attribute - Overhead, fringe, general & administrative costs, etc. Then add in profit. I doubt that Ford Aus is earning a usury rate on each vehicle, so it really has to come down to the overhead efficiency of the operation.

This really gets too complex to elaborate on in a forum like this, but I truly suspect that it's not the cost of the workforce, but rather all the non-labor costs that drove all the auto manufacturers out of Oz. If that's truly the case, they will find themselves loosing money no matter where the cars are built.



Wow, you've actually hit on the fact that the cost of running the operation doesn't work out unless the whole supply chain cost is reduced. In Australia, Ford and Dana Corp set up drive-line operations in close proximity, in there own pockets. But yet again, there was no third supplier. In the old days, the BTR 4 speed was sent off to Volvo on the 760/850, S50, and the Maserati GT3200, but now, the cost of selling gearboxes is to great, and uncompetitive against the German ZF boxes. Yet Ford makes ZF gearboxes in America for a vastly reduced cost.

When Ford bought engines from Tiawan, and Toyo Kogyo Japan before the mid 90's 51% share take over, Ford Australia started failing to make money from Mazda for its Autorama Fords, the Laser (323/GLC), Telstar (626), Courier (B 1600/1800/200/2200/2600), Econovan/Spectron (Bongo). The Aussie Dollar to Yen parity was the whole equation, not supply chain cost.



I've worked for years with allianceing and lump sum contracts, they really do work if you build things down to a price, where you run teams like a semi autogenous ball mill; getting people together, and playing them off so there talents to make proffit are headlined.Its classic Whiz Kids stuff. But in an American setting, the subcontractors just go broke, and then the whole supply chain the needs to be radically shaken up by setting up alternate bids and contracts. The Ford motor company just outsources to fix things to other states, countries or other continents if the price isn't right, or it innovates a cost effective solution from hardcore Saturday brainstorming sessions. The crtical mass makes the savings, and you American unions workers are smart enough to figure through solutions in the best interests of share holders, even if its hard.

I fail to see how things can be radically shaken up in Australia. Like New Zealand and Japan, actual productivities are about 25% less than in Detriot USA.

You can't cut the price of the supply chain on parts like Ford did with the up to 40% foreign Explorer or Ranger, which had German engines and Belgian transmissions made in formerly Ford owned plants from war reparations. Now that's smart management, a real Deaborn Ace. Same as the outsourced dash on the smaller Fords... there is money to be saved by outsourcing, but also money to be made when the outsourced item is perfected at vasltly reduced cost.

And that is why Dearbon turns its back on Broadmedows...its a pencil sharping exercise, and Ford's organic survival demands it.


Sadly, the knowledge of how to use the basic tools and amortizations of them were around to transfer the Geelong I6 to the smaller fwd and diesel requirements for a generation of Fords, but its the whole cost of the operation that is important. Put simply, the outpost in Australia has poor economies of scale due to geographic location. The cost per dollar to do things goes down the closer you are to your markets, and if you ore is closer to the market, you should reap benefits. In this instance, a simple plan for 100% plant utilization was scuppered by what Ford calls direct costs.

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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #92 by Cool23 » Fri May 09, 2014 9:51 pm

Interesting to see that Ford has a market in the USA for the Ford Ranger (Diesel Mazda based 4x4) that is presently sold in Australia and built in Thailand yet has no plans to sell that small Mazda based vehicle in the US market. I say interesting as many from the US see this vehicle here and want it in the US.

What on earth is Ford doing to its market ?
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #93 by MustangSix » Mon May 12, 2014 1:20 pm

Well, the Ranger has been gone from the US market for some time now, ending production in 2011.

Ford has been toying with the idea of bringing it back, but with price points as low as they are for the F150, why bother to sell a Ranger? Retail pricing for F150's starts at under $25k. That means you could probably buy one for about $22-23k.

There's consumer demand for a smaller truck like a Ranger, but you can't build and sell it cheap enough to make sense.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #94 by Cool23 » Mon May 12, 2014 7:37 pm

MustangSix wrote:Well, the Ranger has been gone from the US market for some time now, ending production in 2011.

Ford has been toying with the idea of bringing it back, but with price points as low as they are for the F150, why bother to sell a Ranger? Retail pricing for F150's starts at under $25k. That means you could probably buy one for about $22-23k.

There's consumer demand for a smaller truck like a Ranger, but you can't build and sell it cheap enough to make sense.


The Ranger we have is nothing like the F150 and from what I am told the US market has nothing like it. A mate here has one and had some US Hot Rod Friends visited and stay with him recently and they said they have nothing like the Thailand built Mazda based Ford Ranger in the US. All your pickup stuff is much bigger.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #95 by Fingers » Mon May 12, 2014 11:21 pm

.[/quote]
A mate here has one and had some US Hot Rod Friends visited and stay with him recently and they said they have nothing like the Thailand built Mazda based Ford Ranger in the US. All your pickup stuff is much bigger.[/quote]

It's not actually Mazda based, more the Mazda is Ford based :)
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #96 by MustangSix » Tue May 13, 2014 9:44 am

Yep, they are completely different vehicles.

I have to say, I believe one of the reasons that Ranger (and other small truck) sales have fallen in favor of BIG Dodge, Ford, Chevy, Nissan truck is that fewer Americans are able to squeeze their overweight asses into the cab.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #97 by rocklord » Tue May 13, 2014 1:38 pm

MustangSix wrote:Yep, they are completely different vehicles.

I have to say, I believe one of the reasons that Ranger (and other small truck) sales have fallen in favor of BIG Dodge, Ford, Chevy, Nissan truck is that fewer Americans are able to squeeze their overweight asses into the cab.



Another reason is the full size F150 gets the same, or better, gas mileage than the Ranger for just a little more money.
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #98 by Cool23 » Tue May 13, 2014 7:35 pm

Fingers wrote:
It's not actually Mazda based, more the Mazda is Ford based :)


Well, Ford own a share of Mazda. Mazda would have designed it.

MustangSix wrote:Yep, they are completely different vehicles.

I have to say, I believe one of the reasons that Ranger (and other small truck) sales have fallen in favor of BIG Dodge, Ford, Chevy, Nissan truck is that fewer Americans are able to squeeze their overweight asses into the cab.


You have the big pickups and we have the smaller Japanese Hinos, Mazdas (Used to be sold here as Ford Trader) and Isuzu and they sell better as Ford found when they tried to re-introduce the F Series here.


rocklord wrote:Another reason is the full size F150 gets the same, or better, gas mileage than the Ranger for just a little more money.


The quality of the two may shock you as well as the American that visited here felt the Mazda based Bravo - Ford Ranger being Diesel was better on fuel and a far better quality vehicle than the slightly bigger US built petrol engined US pickup. The US market is missing out on theses smaller built Diesel pickups and you can see that mentioned in many magazines like Diesel Power in the US.
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xctasy
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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #99 by xctasy » Mon May 19, 2014 9:14 pm

Cool23 wrote:Interesting to see that Ford has a market in the USA for the Ford Ranger (Diesel Mazda based 4x4) that is presently sold in Australia and built in Thailand yet has no plans to sell that small Mazda based vehicle in the US market. I say interesting as many from the US see this vehicle here and want it in the US.

What on earth is Ford doing to its market ?



Ford should be like Toyta, able to make great margins with the prices from a lower screw together costs. Taht in theory should allow agressive marketing of the BT50 as well as the Ranger. In practice, though, its the same bungle as with the Mondeo, they make it the preeminent replacement model, then fail to support it in the market with adequate models and body types. When a whole valid model misses out on a body style, its in decline, and a whole model line, then its a cost or supply issue.

I suspect Ford and Toyota is in a major cost/supply bind with the unstable situation in Thailand

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Re: Ford Australias industrial and in line six demise

Post #100 by Cool23 » Tue May 20, 2014 6:23 pm

I am sure that deserves a reply but it would be great if you corrected your spelling so I knew what much of it meant :beer:

As for the situation in Thailand lets try to keep Politics out of this as best we can. I am sure the Auto workers in that country would be well looked after by the companies as if they lose production then that is also a global loss in sales.
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