A mind of it's own :x

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Sentry

A mind of it's own :x

Post #1 by Sentry » Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:39 pm

Today my starter decided it wanted to keep running even when I turned the ignition to the off position. A sticking starter doesn't do that does it. What the heck is wrong with my van. :!:

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Post #2 by Guest » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:02 pm

does it spin the wrong way?i no my truck did that and if i were to pop the clutch it would go backwards but it would be in 1st. your timing might be off all i did to stop my truck from doing that was i reatared it

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addo
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Post #3 by addo » Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:20 pm

I think it would likely be a sticking solenoid. Easy enough to tell, though.

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StrangeRanger
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Post #4 by StrangeRanger » Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:11 pm

It almost has to be a stuck relay. They occasionally fuse in the made position. Good thing they're cheap.

Other possibility is the ignition switch. Less cheap and way more of a PITA to change.

When you pull the control wire (the small wire from the ignition switch) off the starter relay, does it stop trying to start or does it continue cranking?

If it stops = ignition switch
If it continues = starter relay.
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ludwig
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Post #5 by ludwig » Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:32 pm

When you pull the control wire (the small wire from the ignition switch) off the starter relay, does it stop trying to start or does it continue cranking?

If it stops = ignition switch
If it continues = starter relay.


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Post #6 by Sentry » Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:27 pm

It hasn't done it again, when I turned the ignition off the stater was still turning the engine the only thig I knew to do was pull the ground cable. When I reatached the ground cable it fired right up as if nothing happened. I'll keep my eyes open

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Post #7 by Sentry » Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:30 pm

BTW Ranger; starter relay is the same as a soelonoid (i think i spelled that right) right?

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StrangeRanger
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Post #8 by StrangeRanger » Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:39 pm

Well, yes and no.

The starter relay is that bakelite thingy on the inner fender that attaches with big cables between the battery and the starter motor. Most people call it a "solenoid" but it isn't. The actual solenoid is buried deep within the guts of the starter; it's the thing which moves the srarter gear into contact with the flywjeel gear.
1996 F-150 (tow missile)
1993 Mustang 5.0 (hot rod and auto-x monster)
1982 Tiga Formula Ford (SCCA racecar)
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Post #9 by LaGrasta » Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:54 pm

StrangeRanger wrote:Well, yes and no.

The starter relay is that bakelite thingy on the inner fender that attaches with big cables between the battery and the starter motor. Most people call it a "solenoid" but it isn't. The actual solenoid is buried deep within the guts of the starter; it's the thing which moves the srarter gear into contact with the flywjeel gear.


well, there it is! I always suspected something wasn't right with this nomenclature. I know what a solenoid is and I see nothing moving on the "bakelite thingy". I hear of guys using the starter solenoids for door pulls (shaved door handles) and I wonder how that's done since I see no moving mechanism. Now it makes sense. Thanks.
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Post #10 by CoupeBoy » Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:43 pm

Now hold up a minute. This is probably going to be like splitting hairs, but, I'm going to go there anyhow.

A relay typically consists of two circuits. A low voltage circuit normally connected to an electromagnet that when charged attracts a piece of metal close to one end of it, when that peice of metal comes close to the magnet (but not touching) it's contacts will complete a high voltage circuit, when the low voltage circuit current flow is stopped/broken the magnetic field releases its grip on the peice of metal that is completing the high voltage circuit and that peice of metal is pulled away from the contact at one end by a spring of some kind.

HowStuffworks.com How Relays Work

A solenoid also utilizes an electromagnet but instead of being a fixed center it is allowed to move/shift. So when you use one one for opening doors and you energize it the center shaft is shifted/moved enough to trip the door latch lever and then normally a spring mounted in the door jamb pushes the door open.

Solenoids come in a variety of styles for lots of purposes. If you turned the image in this first one 90° and put a large metal disk on it with terminals from the batt on one side and to the starter on the other you could visualize a Ford starter Solenoid.
HowStuffWorks.com How Doorbells Work

Supporting junk URLs if you are bored.
solenoids (experiments with electromagnets)
Work solenoid operation specifics

IIRC inside the 'bakelite' thingus on the inner fender there is a solenoid but it does not have any external connection points. If you took the top or bottom off of that solenoid you will find all of the same features of the more common GM style solenoid (that are mounted on their starter) including a flat disk that makes connection between the battery feed and the terminal that feeds power to the starter.

Also if you disassembled the solenoid bolted to the fender and somehow lengthened the shaft through the center of the electromagnet with the disk you could externally witness movement up and down.

It's a solenoid performing the function of a relay.
-ron

PS, I ain't saying there isn't a solenoid inside the starter, but I am saying that the one on the fender IS a solenoid.

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Post #11 by StrangeRanger » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:03 pm

Ford says it's a relay. :lol:
1996 F-150 (tow missile)
1993 Mustang 5.0 (hot rod and auto-x monster)
1982 Tiga Formula Ford (SCCA racecar)
2013 Hyundai Elantra Coupe (daily driver)

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Post #12 by addo » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:05 pm

Simon says Ron is correct. :roll:

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Post #13 by StrangeRanger » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:55 pm

But what does Paula say?? :lol:
1996 F-150 (tow missile)
1993 Mustang 5.0 (hot rod and auto-x monster)
1982 Tiga Formula Ford (SCCA racecar)
2013 Hyundai Elantra Coupe (daily driver)

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Post #14 by straight fox » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:02 pm

A relay uses a solenoid to actuate a switch. Everybody wins!

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