SFI a VI alu head

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chad
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SFI a VI alu head

Post #1 by chad » Thu May 03, 2018 7:42 pm

What's needed?

6 injectors (drill/tap for intake),
the computer to run them,
trigger wheel,
plug-up dizzy hole,
wide band O2 sensor,
MAP sensor,
wiring,
fuel rail,
ele fuel pump,
regulator,
return line.

more?

Thanx,
I guess now I know Y they do more of the throttle bodieds.
Last edited by chad on Thu May 17, 2018 10:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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sortafast
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Re: SFI a VI head

Post #2 by sortafast » Thu May 17, 2018 12:05 am

You'd also need a wide band O2 sensor, MAP sensor, someone who knows what they are doing to tune it among other things.

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Re: SFI a VI head

Post #3 by drag-200stang » Thu May 17, 2018 9:00 am

sortafast wrote:You'd also need a wide band O2 sensor, MAP sensor, someone who knows what they are doing to tune it among other things.

You forgot,... and a lot of money. :rolflmao:
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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SFI a VI alu head

Post #4 by chad » Thu May 17, 2018 10:30 am

Thanks for the posts-back!

Of the list - some R easily obtained. Others - I don't know of which off the shelf components would meet specs for this application:

* 6 injectors - unknown to me,
* the computer to run them - during development - some app for a lap top? which permanent ECM for this vehicle?
* plug-up dizzy hole, trigger wheel - we got 1 or 2 threads on successfully developing
* wide band O2 sensor - (Bosch I suppose) plus gauge to read & bung
* MAP sensor - which?
* wiring - (4) 14 gauge colors
* Fuel rail - AN fittings? need for metal line?
* ele fuel pump - (? pressure/gal/min?)
* regulator - off the shelf ( able to control up to 30 lbs?)
* return line - off the shelf metal, site bent & assembled.

How bout need for gas tank mods?
Throttle peddle changes in the cab?
No other sensors needed?

As said: Lotta time, money, testing and some development!
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #5 by sortafast » Thu May 17, 2018 1:05 pm

So I am going to be going down this same road very soon. Trying to get my hands on an aluminum head. I have an in at a race tuning shop that works on a lot of I6's (not ford but they know their crap) as well as have my machine shop in with my buddy's fab shop (who knows a lot of things about this sort of stuff). So I should be able to get stuff figured out pretty easy. Going to make my own fuel rail, intake, header and all that. We are going to go Turbo and try to get 400-450hp out of this pig. We got access to a dyno at the diesel shop across from my shop for tuning. Should be fun.

For parts:

ECU I am likely going to go Haltech Elite 750, with mega squirt a distant second
Injectors I am not 100% sure on, but I am sure I will get some good advise on that one
For the trigger wheel, I will likely just make a new aluminum pulley because I can.
Fuel pump I am told is best to go in tank if you can. External ones tend to make a ton of noise.
I am going to make a complete new pedal assembly and going to fab up a hydraulic clutch set up.
Map sensor, I don't know
02 sensor I will probably just get whatever the race shop recommends that will work with the Haltech.

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'SFI' a VI alu head

Post #6 by chad » Thu May 17, 2018 1:24 pm

so the Haltech is tuneable... ~ 1,500 $ ?

wonder if there's nother way (as this seems to B the big money prt of project)
at least after the alu head purchase... ($3.5K already).
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #7 by sortafast » Thu May 17, 2018 11:45 pm

Haltech is tunable and better than mega squirt. But the Mega squirt system isn't terrible either. Lots of options on the megasquirt, but by the time you spec it out, the Haltech is about the same price and a better system. I am not sure on how one tunes them though. Might have to pay someone for that. Maybe.

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SFI a VI alu head

Post #8 by chad » Fri May 18, 2018 12:36 am

I thought the "Mega" wuz just 4 a throttle bodied style -
guess U can swap a 'puter to do anything, just program it

"...pay someone for that..."
c'mon now, we hack the other stuff (grab a book, no?)

Y'd they put the 6 bosses for injectors (actually twice) on that head'n intake if they didn't want us 2 give it a try? :twisted:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #9 by sortafast » Fri May 18, 2018 10:00 am

yeah, mega squirt can do multipart EFI. Not sure if it just does bank firing though.

As for the intake, I am going to make my own and it will be epically awesome. And I am not joking. I am working with my buddy that designed one that was made to be cast and it went into production for an aftermarket company. I made some of the parts for the original run of them. It was pretty cool.

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #10 by pmuller9 » Sat May 19, 2018 7:15 pm

The MegaSquirt 3 does sequential injection plus multiple channel distributor-less ignition.
It comes with an internal 2.5 bar MAP sensor.
All other sensors will need to be purchased.

Haltech Elite 750 has 2 different universal wire harnesses available.
It also has every feature you will need.
It comes with an internal 3 bar MAP sensor.
All other sensors will need to be purchased.

HP EFI ECU and Unterminated Universal Harness kit comes with all the sensors that are already calibrated to the ECU.

The Bosch wideband O2 is good for naturally aspirated use.
If you are turbocharging, the NTK O2 will handle the extra heat better.

Chad
Are you turbocharging or N/A?
I'm assuming this is for your 250 engine?

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SFI a VI alu head

Post #11 by chad » Sat May 19, 2018 11:04 pm

pmuller9 wrote:Chad
Are you turbocharging or N/A?
I'm assuming this is for your 250 engine?


This is so far off as 2B a pipe dream (but I don't even have the $ 4 a pipe!). :oops:
Sure like to C what the components would B tho...the feasability, very rough costs, etc
Didn't even consider the turbo but the shop where I hang the owner built a 700+HP Toyota Starlet (4 cyl Tacoma motor) he trailers around to all the drags w/in 2 - 5 hr drive. Where the heck would U put that w/this VI intake? (where would the compressed air come in)? Any pic?

Wouldn't the 200/3.3 B a better choice? a more square motor?
(I'd actually like 2 C it in a 144! :twisted: does the VI head'n intake fit them?) a nice 60 - 63 round bodied wagon 8^ 0

Thanks for the post
AND
comments!
If young boys can have dreams - this ol fart can too :?:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #12 by pmuller9 » Sat May 19, 2018 11:43 pm

Good things start with a dream.

The 200 six would be a good engine to work with.
The short stroke crank will hold up much better to rpm than the long stoke 250.
The 200 would need to run at a much higher rpm to make the same peak power as the 250.

The problem is that the aluminum head is not set up with long enough valves to accommodate valve springs that will have the spring rates needed for high rpm nor is there enough valve travel for high valve lifts.
See Post #20 and 21. viewtopic.php?p=601388#p601388

If you turbocharge you would get best results with a custom exhaust header and intake similar to 67Straightsix. viewtopic.php?f=22&t=74307

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #13 by chad » Sun May 20, 2018 12:01 am

WoW, 3 idler pullies - look how wide that is!
Didn't think it would fit the engine bay.

The reason I thought of the SFI was seein the intake's bosses, fuel injection site and the plastic nature of the system to elevation'n other changes, low maintence, MPGs and such.
Back Later...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #14 by pmuller9 » Sun May 20, 2018 12:21 am

I should have asked you first about how much horsepower do you want?

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SFI a VI alu head

Post #15 by chad » Sun May 20, 2018 10:03 am

don't matter, just sompin to get around in. Stock is fine,
Its more abt modernizing the i6, finding the components,
getting by w/the minimal, creating the easily done/repeatable
for: MPGs, (yes, a lill pep is nice), regular spark plugs, oriented toward the
minimum, durable components. As said earlier the "plastic", self correcting nature
(elevation, changing seasons, other conditions) low maintenance of these 'modern' motors R nice.
Getting the fuel injected at those points on the system (simpler component, better delivery) cleaner
exhaust. Sorta just 'upping the game' not reinventing. The TBI is a good step, w/my lack of knowledge I
liked the SFI'n thought it a step better but don't know how it all works. "A lill knowledge can B a dangerous thing" I guess.

I looked around for my 1st time in this forum and found "too much information." Not sure I'd ever absorb it all.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #16 by pmuller9 » Mon May 21, 2018 12:15 am

Let's pipe dream about sequential port injection and one coil per cylinder ignition.
If we are talking naturally aspirated the I would use the 250 for the extra low rpm torque.

The Aluminum head will give you the extra pep plus being aluminum you can run a higher compression ratio than the iron head which will help increase fuel mileage along with additional torque.
The head has injector bosses that will direct the injectors closer to the intake valve.
You will need to machine the bosses for the injectors and machine a fuel rail for the top end of the injectors.
The fuel rail will need supports to hold it in place
One end of the fuel rail receives fuel from the fuel pump and the other end runs to the fuel regulator that has a return line back to the fuel tank.
Fuel pressure minimum is about 45 psi.
Use an in-tank fuel pump.

A round throttle body can be attached to the 4 barrel carb intake using an Edelbrock Intake Elbow.
The throttle body has the TPS sensor and the IAC to control the idle rpm.
Most EFI ECUs have an internal MAP so you just need an 1/8" hose from the intake manifold to the nipple on the ECU box.
The intake manifold will need another threaded hole for the Manifold Air Temp (MAT) sensor.

Need a coolant temp sensor in the side of the block.
Need an O2 sensor in the header collector

Optional:
Oil pressure sensor
Fuel pressure sensor
Knock sensor

If we are looking for max MPG, the cam profile should have a wide lobe separation angle (LSA) to minimize valve overlap.
Using a long tube, small diameter header will reduce pumping losses during the last half of the exhaust stroke and the wide LSA will prevent raw fuel from being scavenged out the exhaust by reducing the overlap period between the intake and exhaust valve opening.

For best ignition timing resolution, attach a 60-2 tooth timing wheel to the harmonic balancer hub.
Most ECUs will support the 60-2 plus other wheels with less tooth count.

The ECU will also need a cam sync signal to mark cylinder #1 for sequential operation.
That can be done by modifying a distributor.
You can also modify a cam sensor from the 3.8 V6. viewtopic.php?p=589645#p589645

Add an electric radiator fan and you have a good start.

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SFI a VI alu head

Post #17 by chad » Mon May 21, 2018 2:15 am

jees, that seems to lay it out.
Now if I only understood it all.

More visits to the other forum...way above my pay grade,
Thanks for the schoolin, time and kindness...

I C the possibilities more clearly.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #18 by sortafast » Mon May 21, 2018 10:20 am

chad wrote:don't matter, just sompin to get around in. Stock is fine,
Its more abt modernizing the i6, finding the components,
getting by w/the minimal, creating the easily done/repeatable
for: MPGs, (yes, a lill pep is nice), regular spark plugs, oriented toward the
minimum, durable components. As said earlier the "plastic", self correcting nature
(elevation, changing seasons, other conditions) low maintenance of these 'modern' motors R nice.
Getting the fuel injected at those points on the system (simpler component, better delivery) cleaner
exhaust. Sorta just 'upping the game' not reinventing. The TBI is a good step, w/my lack of knowledge I
liked the SFI'n thought it a step better but don't know how it all works. "A lill knowledge can B a dangerous thing" I guess.

I looked around for my 1st time in this forum and found "too much information." Not sure I'd ever absorb it all.

Pmuller9 laid it out pretty well. But TBI is a lot easier to do, but I think you will run into some of the same issues of starving the cylinders at each end as you do with the factory log head. I don't think it would be nearly as bad, but the runners to those outside cylinders is longer on that intake so they will be slightly less efficient. You don't have to do SFI. You could do bank firing multi port EFI. I have heard that SFI doesn't get you the gains you think it will, but it's been a long time since I have looked into it. Also to get an EFI that will do SFI, you are looking at quite a bit more $$$ from what I remember as well. Even with a TBI, you will still need all of those sensors and such. But you get to ditch the fuel rail and the associated machine work on it. Its not bad if you have a good milling machine. I have made fuel rails and intake parts for other cars, but then again I also have a decent CNC mill to use for it.

I do like the thought of running the 250 block though. I think that might be a winner there. I would try to get one for the wife's car, but I kind of want to see what I can do with the 200 that's already in there. Plus it's cheaper this way, or something like that.

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #19 by pmuller9 » Mon May 21, 2018 10:59 am

sortafast wrote: You don't have to do SFI. You could do bank firing multi port EFI. I have heard that SFI doesn't get you the gains you think it will, but it's been a long time since I have looked into it. Also to get an EFI that will do SFI, you are looking at quite a bit more $$$ from what I remember as well.


Sequential versus Bank to Bank may not make much difference as far as peak power gains but it can make a difference as far as fuel efficiency when operating at low rpm cruising speeds.

Most aftermarket EFI systems do Sequential, Bank to Bank and Batch injection so there is no difference in cost there.
The difference is that Bank to Bank and Batch modes don't require a cam sync signal.

The cam sync signal also allows you to do a single coil per cylinder ignition system.
Without the cam sync signal you can use a waste spark ignition system if you still want to go distributor-less.

If you want to stay with a distributor the best low end response reported (with the big six) has been with the MSD ignition system.
Just be sure you buy directly from MSD so you don't end up with a counterfeit unit.

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #20 by pmuller9 » Mon May 21, 2018 4:54 pm

chad wrote:jees, that seems to lay it out.
Now if I only understood it all.

More visits to the other forum...way above my pay grade,
Thanks for the schoolin, time and kindness...

I C the possibilities more clearly.

What would you like to have explained?
There are members here doing all types of EFI combinations and would be happy to share.

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #21 by chad » Mon May 21, 2018 8:28 pm

"Explained"... ?
I still haven't read the reference FF gave me when I asked for "a text to hi school auto shop". :rolflmao:
So I'm not even a beginner...

The last few posts have been helpful.
May B (if I had time) I should go hang out at the fuel injection forum and know what I don't know (actually a very important point). Only prob is I feel/believe that's too substantial an undertaking...
Again, U guys have been gracious, given me "a good hit".

I consider myself a garage rat - hung out in frnd's garages (pro shops - fab, mod, restore, maintain) for yrs (a break frm late 70s to late 90s) frm a lill boy, to this, my senior yrs. Altho never a mechanic per se`. I never "got" auto electrics and then missed the changes frm early throttle body to mass computerization. It certainly is a passion (minor after music'n social change). I love systems (gosh darn the auto certainly is 1) but lean toward the human ones (family, culture, society, political power, economics, ed, etc). End of story 4 now...

Thanks for offering.
:beer:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #22 by drag-200stang » Fri May 25, 2018 9:00 am

Did I mention, a lot of money. :(
66 Mustang Coupe
200 turbo w/lenco 4-spd
stock adj. rockers, stock timing set, ARP studs
best 1/4 mile ET 9.85/best mph 139 on 8 lbs progressing to 15 lbs boost
Went 9's when 10's was fast.

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chad
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SFI a VI alu head

Post #23 by chad » Fri May 25, 2018 9:39 pm

Once, o0OPPp, twice (me too).
:thumbup:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #24 by Econoline » Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:35 pm

It's surprising that no one sells a fuel rail for the aftermarket aussie/vi style intakes available. They all have a provision for the injectors. I think a smaller better mpi intake could be made. Why not sell one fitted with bungs and a fuel rail? Along with a better/smaller intake for a common throttle body. None of the aftermarket aussie style intakes will fit in the doghouse of the van as is. Bend it over backwards like the EFI 300's with a side draft throttle body pointing towards the drivers side over the valve cover with enough room in the lower bend for the fuel rail/injectors. Or a rail for the aluminum head with a head machined to match on it's provisions for bosch injectors? The spacing looks to be the same forwards or backwards, intake or head or it should be. Interchangeable.
It ain't gonna fix itself

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Re: SFI a VI alu head

Post #25 by chad » Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:53 pm

Thanks, Seth,
"...Or a rail for the aluminum head with a head machined to match on it's provisions for bosch injectors?..."
so U mean w/o the seperate intake, just injectors in the head (as is common w/today's models)?
That is not made 4 us. So I was thinkin use the bosses on the current seperate intake.
Yes (if this is what U mean) but we don't have it...

"... Along with a better/smaller intake for a common throttle body...."
Sure, but, not currently here.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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