Optimum carburetion for small six with aluminum head (3 2-Vs) ?

62Ranchero200

Famous Member
Greetings Ford Six Fans,

This is a rehash of a topic that has been discussed several times over the years (by people far more knowledgeable than I).

The aluminum head, with it's removable intake manifold that can accept 2-V Holley/Autolite, 4-V Holley/Autolite, and 2-V Weber carbs, is a huge improvement over the log head. However, fuel distribution still seems imperfect, based on the relative length of the intake runners (3 & 4 are the shortest, 2 & 5 of a moderate length, and 1 &6 the longest). I expect that if fuel distribution could be improved, performance would also improve. Is that reasonable?

Maybe fuel injection (especially multi-port) offers the best fuel distribution; but I am not ready to tackle the complexities of fuel injection.

One carburetor per cylinder should theoretically be the best fuel distribution with carburetors; but all of the existing 1-V Ford carbs are too bulky for this, so motorcycle carbs would have to be used, with, I think, significant work to adopt them.

I expect that three 2-V carbs would be the next-best fuel distribution; rather than one carb per cylinder, this could offer 1 venturi per cylinder (depending on how the 2-V carbs are mounted), which would (I think) be almost as good. Have seen several three 2-V carb manifolds, but alas, they only fit Australian heads.

So I'll make this offer: if anyone with the fabrication skills cares to make a couple of 3 2-V manifold sets for the aluminum head (one for you and one for me), I'll buy you three carbs of your choice for your new 3 2-V manifold (new or used, your choice), and we can both test with our separate combos.

As I see it, the basic options are:

The three 2-V carbs joined to common plenum? Or three separate pieces, one for each 2-V carb, that bolt directly to the aluminum head?
Side-draft (such as for Webers) with a vertical mounting flange, or with a horizontal mounting flange, for Holley 2-Vs?

Thoughts?

Thanks
Bob
 
gus91326":31vhf8mm said:
I saw Vintage Inlines has a manifold for 3 2v webers (I believe). Check it out

It turns out that the manifold is not on the VI web site. With the help of another forum member, I found out that it was made by an Australian company, Lynx. There is speculation that it would fit the aluminum head (bolt holes and ports) - maybe X would know for sure. If it does fit, it's definitely an option and if so, I'd be surprised that no one with an aluminum head (VI) has ever tried one.

All that being said, I wonder if three Holley 2-Vs (on a different manifold) would be a better choice.

Thanks
Bob
 
Photos from CI gallery:
 

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@rwbrooks,

I wonder who made the three-carb manifold? That looks fantastic!

Thanks
Bob

P.S. The MPFI setup looks fantastic too, but I don't feel competent to set something like that up.
 
Hi Rick,

Yes we can ship to the US.

Cost is $74 shipping.

Payment can be made via credit card or paypal.

Best Regards,

Daniel van Stokrom

email weber lynx

Lynx Weber Pty Ltd
T/AS Weber Performance Carburettors
& Lynx Performance Products
(03) 9587 3277 Int (+61 3 9587 3277)
Factory 15, 35-37 Canterbury Rd
Braeside, VIC 3195 Australia
http://www.weberperformance.com.au

WE ONLY SUPPLY GENUINE WEBER CARBURETTORS & REPLACEMENT PARTS

From: Richard Brooks [mailto:rwbrooks@cebridge.net]
Sent: Friday, 27 April 2018 7:04 AM
To: Weber Performance Carburettors
Subject: Contact from Weber Performance Carburettors: Sales: Triple DCOE Weber Manifold [12-72]

Sales: Triple DCOE Weber Manifold [12-72]

Ford 6 Cyl 250 X-Flow Alloy Head Triple DCOE Weber Manifold [12-72]

Will you ship this product to the USA?


Rick
 
Guys, the X flow ally head Three DCOE 45 weber intake is for a Cross flow head, not the Classic In Lines, Vintage In lines or 250 2V Aussie Non cross flow heads.



The down draft Weber IDA is custom made, and fits the Classic In Lines, Vintage In lines or 250 2V Aussie Non cross flow heads.


But it won't fit under the hood.

Lynx used to make lots of 2v 250 non cross flow intake manifolds, and they are being reproduced but old ones, the "Sawn off Shot Gun" triple 2" SU's and triple DCOE 45's are around, but ultra rare .


Lynx9.jpg



Order M190 through Lynx.

Lynx_m190_250_2v_tripower_002.jpg




Lynx_m190_250_2v_tripower_003.jpg

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc5 ... er_003.jpg



For carbs, Megasquirt MS2 or 3 operates Weber DCOE EFi lookalikes for a lot less than the price of genuine Weber DCOE 45 carbs.

Best size for you is 48 DCOE's with the 43 mm choke. 48DHLA Dellortos give the best power.


Screen dumps from Chevy Off Road and Marines 265 Hemi in line six Megasquirt. Speed Density.




COME_265_HEMI_MEGASQUIRT_43secs.jpg




COME_265_HEMI_MEGASQUIRT_45secs.jpg



https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... sWPzbfaIJQ

hey later did the O2 Based AutoTune.They had it dialled in to the Ballpark Map with about 10 minutes work.


297 flywheel hp in just 10 minutes, 3 hp more than a stock E49 Six Pack 265.



jenvey_48_dcoe_itbs-jpg.598724





jenvey_48_dcoe_itb_006-jpg.598725




jenvey_48_dcoe_itb_005-jpg.598726




jenvey_48_dcoe_itb_007-jpg.598723
 
Xctasy,
Thanks, I have been hoping you would reply. Looks like any triple intake for the CI or VI heads will be custom made.

Rick
 
Hi X,

A triple Weber manifold is on the way to me from Will. He's certain that it will bolt up to the CI aluminum head, but there will be a slight port mismatch that will require some port matching (obviously, on the manifold, so that I can revert back to a different intake setup on the head if I want). If this works out, I plan use this with three Weber DCOEs (unless I find a less expensive side-draft alternative) and to relocate my battery in the bed of the Ranchero. My biggest concern is clearance between the center Weber and the passenger side shock tower.

I'm certain that fuel plumbing and carburetor linkage will be challenges as I have never worked with a Weber, nor multiple carbs.

I think the triple Webers will be great, but if I could have a triple-Holley (2300/4412) manifold, that would be even better (yes, I would cut the hood for this setup), as I am familiar with tuning the Holleys (with Bill Amber's help) (wsa111), and I wouldn't have to relocate the battery or cut the shock tower.

Thanks
Bob
 
62Ranchero200":1n08vv2w said:
Hi X,

A triple Weber manifold is on the way to me from Will. He's certain that it will bolt up to the CI aluminum head, but there will be a slight port mismatch that will require some port matching (obviously, on the manifold, so that I can revert back to a different intake setup on the head if I want). If this works out, I plan use this with three Weber DCOEs (unless I find a less expensive side-draft alternative) and to relocate my battery in the bed of the Ranchero. My biggest concern is clearance between the center Weber and the passenger side shock tower.

I'm certain that fuel plumbing and carburetor linkage will be challenges as I have never worked with a Weber, nor multiple carbs.

I think the triple Webers will be great, but if I could have a triple-Holley (2300/4412) manifold, that would be even better (yes, I would cut the hood for this setup), as I am familiar with tuning the Holleys (with Bill Amber's help) (wsa111), and I wouldn't have to relocate the battery or cut the shock tower.

Thanks
Bob

If you want to run 3 Holley 2300 carbs and don’t mind cutting the hood, how about building a tunnel ram style intake? This is the plan I have and will be building for my drag car. Another option would setting the Holleys sideways and building an IR type intake. Good luck (y) :nod: Edited
 
I had a 150 word discussion with Mike W back in the mid Noughties.

I've never liked EFi becasue of the safety aspect of fuel pumps, cut off fuel supply, and having to run high pressures. The wiring to the gas tank is the biggest issue, and the feedback O2 sensors are always keyed into a air fuel map, and then you have to decide how your gonna meter it out. Bank fire, sequential, Speed Densityor MAF.



The carb is much easier to use on a low pressure 7 psi situation.


I felt then that as well as the longer Cross flow head bolts, he should look at a standard Weber intake manifold, and then add a Holley to Weber DCOE 45 gooseneck to fit either one 2-bbl, two 2-bbls, or three 2bll Holley carbs. Then you would have to add a Cobra6/ Harrie style upper spring tower brace bar set like the Argentine guys do. But it looked doable back then, still does today.


Ultimately, Mike decided that the 2-bbl to 4-bbl single Holley was the best use of his resources, because most sellers split the 2V head and stock 2V intake and sell seperate to get a better sale price. Part A, goes with Part B, ya know.


Anyway, I've always thought buying two of these, and turning them up side down, and cutting them would make an awesome triple Holley 500 cfm 4412 carb adaptor to the 250 2V, Classic In lines or Vintage inlines head.



12-3144.jpg






The ideal carb venturi size is about 40 mm, or 1.575" for a good 295 hp net engine. The Holley 2300 series base can just be inserted to that size using a USA sourced insert kit on a PN #4412 s500 CFM 2-BBL Oor PN #6245 650 CFM 2-BBL. The old 1.33 Autolite 2100 and current Chinese 2150 Motorcraft carbs do not have the casting thickness to perform the same trick. Cutting up some old Dominator 4-bbls into some 2-bbl Split carbs will give yopu the venturi area you need. Going under six 36 mm venturis on on a four liter engine strangles the rev range past 4500 rpm. Three 4412 carbs with the 1.375" venturis taken out to 1.4375" will J-U-S-T work on a 250 six reving no more than 4800 rpm. The ports on the 2V 250, Classic Inines and Vintage In lines head are able to make power to 6000 rpm.


According to Stan Weiss et al, the heal over point where peak rpm and power are made is based on port area and valve lift, and actual CFM at that valve lift.


The question isn't what intake manifold you want, but how are you gonna get the carb venturi area.

The critical relationship between venturi size and rev range on independent runner carbs was established during World War Two by il Commendatore Edurado Weber before his untimely death. His work was with aero engines.

The ideal carb venturi was established by Aston Martin with the 4 liter DB5's, 6's and the last DBS 6 cylinder engines. Chrysler Australia used the DBS Vanatage carbs, and found them just right, as both cars made the same power....325 hp gross for the DBS Vtange 6 cylinder, and A fudged down 302 hp gross for the E49, both had the same 40 mm venturi, and the same carbs. Only the E49 was actually 295 hp net at 5600 rpm.


The 36mm venturis made only 248 hp on the E37 Valiant Pacer , and the 38 mm venturis, 280 hp on the E38 Valiant Charger. The old Renault Torino GR with triple DCOE 45's used 37 mm venturis, and only reved to 4700 rpm, if I recall right.


So it is carb size that governs horsepower and mid range torque, not intake maniolds, if all else is equal. Intake runner length isn't critical if the goose neck to the intake ports isn't too sharp. Direct mount 2-bbl carbs with some 40mm venturis on a log head will make as much power as side draft DCOE 45's on a 2V 250 head. Its venturi size, port area, cam lift, and the Weber chart takes precendece over anything else as long as the ports sizes are big enough to match the throttle blades.



STD_E49_265_NON_MODIFIED_stock.jpg



STD_E49_265_NON_MODIFIED.jpg




Mike W's 1969 Mustang 6i was based around this basic idea.....that an in line Ford six with Idependent Throtttle Bodies and a detachable intake would match, and infact exceed the performance of a factory 265 Hemi Six Pack.




Best non Weber choices:



I'm quite sure a routed out 2300 series carb with 650 cfm like the 1.4375" 37 mm #6245 sieries 2-BBL,

650cfmPN6245_2300series.jpg



or the brilliant, unlimited # 4412 2300 series based aftermarket 890 cfm C&S 1.56" (40 mm ) 2-bbl carbs would make the best power.

_Bw1mtHQEGk___KGrHqYOKkIEwQNZwOpIBMK1r43nRg___1.JPG


There is even the Split Billet Dominator unlimited 2 barrel 2” with 1.69" (over 43 mm) venturi carbs for unrestricted V-8 2 barrel classes that outflows 890 cfm carb above for even more excellent power.

images
 
"A triple Weber manifold is on the way to me from Will."


Bob,

Have you received the Weber manifold?

Rick
 
@rwbrooks50,

I did receive the triple Weber manifold.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to follow up whatsoever since I received it. Life gets in the way ... have been extremely busy at work, working on home maintenance projects, and now taking a one week vacation to Mexico.

Thank you,
Bob
 
Have a restful vacation!!

I will be in Galveston the end of June. I would like to hookup to see your ranchero.

Rick
 
Hi Rick,

I am in Mexico this week, back in Houston the week of 6/18, possibly out of town the week of 6/25. After that, in town until 7/9.

I hope we can get together. Let me know your schedule

Thank you,
Bob
 
62Ranchero200":q0kofofr said:
Hi Rick,

I am in Mexico this week, back in Houston the week of 6/18, possibly out of town the week of 6/25. After that, in town until 7/9.

I hope we can get together. Let me know your schedule

Thank you,
Bob

Hi Bob,

Reviving this one as I have some interest in your setup. Any updates or photos you can share with us? Did you ever get the manifold and triple Webers installed? Looking forward to the update...

Cheers,
Matthew
 
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