GM TBI Fuel Injection

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Econoline
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GM TBI Fuel Injection

Post #1 by Econoline » Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:51 pm

I'm starting to settle on the idea of converting to fuel injection with the spare head I have. I just discovered that fuel injection guru and owner of Hamilton Fuel Injection is 20 minutes down the road. I'd been toying with the idea of using two 1 bbl cfi units and I came across a posting where he built a system for an inline chevy using 2 gm 1v tbi's. I don't really want to be an expert in fuel injection or design my system so I think I'm going to get a hold of him. But in the mean time, one thing I'm pondering and questioning is whether it is better to use a 2v TBI vs 2 1v's with our log head. My thinking is that with 2 1'v you have some injection closer to the ends but the other half of the charge is further away. The center cylinders would still be in the sweet spot. Where would they best be mounted on the log, on either end? Or is it best just to go 2v and call it good enough?

Another thing I don't understand is electronic spark timing. I see all these trigger wheel setups and stuff but are they needed with TBI or only MPI? Can you use the DSII distributor with the vac advance removed, mech locked down, and an 8 pin HEI module to do EST with a GM ECM?


Respectfully,

Seth

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Re: GM TBI Fuel Injection

Post #2 by MustangSix » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:15 pm

Seth,

I think this is a great way to do EFI. I'm assuming this is for a 200 or 250, but you could make the same case for a 300.

I think I'd be inclined to use a 2bbl throttle body with a direct mount on the log. The center carb position is directly above the exhaust heat stove in the intake floor and incoming fuel gets vaporized better in that spot. Moving to two carbs in an outboard position is theoretically better but the gains would likely be pretty small for the work you have to do. The single TBI also simplifies plumbing, fuel pressure regulation, throttle position sensor, idle air, and vacuum setups.

A locked down DSII should work fine with a GM module. They are working with the same reluctor/pickup principle. You'll also need the ESC module to go with it if you are using the GM ECU and a matching GM coil would probably be the way to go. No trigger wheels needed. Use the stock GM MAP and temp sensors. There are even reasonably priced off-the-shelf harnesses available if you don't want to disassemble one yourself.

The 1227747 ECU is very hackable and there are a lot of vendors that offer methods to tune them. An ECU from a 4.3 V6 may even be close enough to run a 250 as is. The Block Learn feature will help tune it as you drive it.


Jack Collins

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Re: GM TBI Fuel Injection

Post #3 by bmbm40 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:14 pm

I really like the GM TBI idea and would also go with one 2bbl direct mounted. That will be one nice running Econoline.


66 Bronco-1970 250, NV3550, DSII, 4 turn ps, uncut, 1" bl, 2.5" sl, front disc, twin stick D 20, 30 x 9.50
NEXT- direct mount 1.08 on D8 head, power brakes, rear limited slip, 3G, electric fan, electric upgrades, custom curved DSII, header, 31" tires

'81 F150 4x4 300

New guy? Get this>http://www.falcon6handbook.com

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Re: GM TBI Fuel Injection

Post #4 by jdlaugh430 » Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:43 pm

I just recently got my 1965 Econoline Pickup running with a Chevy TBI on a custom log manifold mounted to my original, stock 240 engine. The distributor from a 1989 Ford F150 300 ci was a direct drop-in replacement and let me marry the Ford TFI ignition system from the late 80s/early 90s to MegaSquirt. It's been quite a learning experience with a ton of reading. I still have a lot of tuning to do, but at least it starts & runs!

Here's a link to a short YouTube video: https://youtu.be/vY1MaDr_gwk


James, Tulsa, OK
1965 Econoline "Heavy Duty" Pickup
"A Work in Progress"

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Econoline
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Re: GM TBI Fuel Injection

Post #5 by Econoline » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:26 pm

That's awesome JD. I'm glad to see you're making progress. Have you taken it around the block yet? I'm leaning towards the stock/or flash tuned ECU vs mega squirt b/c I don't forsee having the time it takes to absorb all the info and get it tuned right. I'm hoping, with some dinero, to get a local to help me out. I may lean on you a bit when I get there tho. You know how these things go, there's a learning curve and plans change. I've got to get my head ready first(the one laying around and the one on my shoulders ;)) and then gather and outlay for this stuff, so it may be a while before I can find the time and $ to throw at it. Just getting the head ready is going to be a nice bit of coin. Good to see though, and glad to see you on the forum here. How are you doing timing? What is your TBI off of? What # injectors? I imagine that your 240 is going to be pretty happy around the same place my 250 will. I was thinking the stock 4.3-6 V6 TBI system may be a good starting point.

Thanks for the insights and help MustangSix and bmbm40. I tend to agree that going 2v is best and it's encouraging to hear that I won't need a crank wheel and so on to have a complete system, timing/afr/knock etc..


Respectfully,

Seth

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Re: GM TBI Fuel Injection

Post #6 by jdlaugh430 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:41 am

The truck isn't driveable just yet, but should be in the next few days. My setup uses the throttle body from a 5.0 Chevy Silverado with 54? lb injectors. The 4.3 TBI is the same size only has smaller injectors. They would have been fine, but I hope to add a turbo in the near future so I went bigger than strictly needed. Timing is handled by Megasquirt thanks to use of the Ford TFI ignition system components. I don't think the TFI system was ever used on the smaller sixes. I do believe the Duraspark distributors can be adapted for use with MS using the GM Hei module, as mentioned earlier, although I haven't tried it myself.

Megasquirt is definitely a learning experience and can be time consuming to get things working right -- especially if you're building a system that is not well documented. Sadly, the Ford TFI/Megasquirt setup is NOT well documented so it has been a challenge. I think you would run into the same issues with the Duraspark/HEI setup.


James, Tulsa, OK
1965 Econoline "Heavy Duty" Pickup
"A Work in Progress"

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Re: GM TBI Fuel Injection

Post #7 by jimmyv65 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:20 pm

I have some experience with both TBI solutions.

GM ECU: I did a GM 7747 to a Toyota inline 6, 12 years ago before it was cool. Some folks mention that it will probably work without a re-chip. That isn't true. You'll need a chip burnt or burn one yourself. At the time, there wasn't folks like AFI. I had gotten a cheap chip burner and some freeware. I was able to tune it myself and get it pretty darn good. Final answer: simple, works well but a bit of a hassle tuning with the chips. Also, can be done pretty cheap with a good junkyard run.

Megasquirt: I am in-process on Meqasquirting a 250 in my Bronco. I have it running in "fuel only" mode and have struggled with adding ignition to the mix. I was trying the 7 pin conversion to a large cap HEI from DUI. I could never get it to get the tach signal, which is table stakes. Megasquirt is an amazing tool. It is a swiss army knife that can do lots of different stuff. It isn't "plug and play". I see a lot of folks talk about the 7 pin conversion to a large cap HEI, but don't see many talk about being successful at it. The documentation for Megasquirt is a little nutty. There is a ton of it that sometimes is in conflict with itself. It can vary depending on the version of Megasquirt as well. It is a lot of reading. In the end, the doc is all there, but written in a way that is a little nutty. :bang: Final Answer: Really amazing tool that can be very complex with sketchy documentation.

If you look at Megasquirt, there are several ways you could config the disty/ignition part. I realized after my 7 pin failure, I could have gone several different ways with it. So, after I get it all buttoned up, tuned and running nice on fuel only, I will likely try ignition control again. This time, I don't think I will do the 7 pin. There is a way to do basic triggering and use the 4 pin module or the 8 pin. Heck, I could drop the GM disty and figure it out with something else as well.


1966 Bronco-'78 250-Meagsquirted TBI, DUI, Header, Cam, Hydroboost & Front Disc, Uncut, 1" body lift, 2.0" suspension lift

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Re: GM TBI Fuel Injection

Post #8 by Greg » Wed May 17, 2017 11:21 pm

I have been running a GM TBI 2 barrel with spark control for about 8 years on a 200 with a megasquirt 2. I'd estimate about 15000-20000 miles since I installed it on my '67 mustang. I installed it after modifying the engine and having too much trouble tuning the carb. I posted years ago the 2-1 adapter I used and Holley to GM TBI adapter to bolt the configuration to the intake. I use a wide range O2 sensor. I would definitely recommend the 2barrel tbi and widening the intake and 2-1 adapter opening as much as possible. The setup was not too hard to get a good running around town tune. If you want maximum performance I'd recommend a Dino, but I have just used hills to tune high power (I live by Pittsburgh). My setup runs smooth with a 262/272 (I think, bad memory) cam at idle and I run the engine up to 6000rpms smoothly.

For the ignition timing I used an HEI ignition distributor from an 80s engine for the metric pickup instead of points. I removed the weights for the centripetal advance and disconnected the vacuum advance.

The power feels up based on the seat of the pants method, but I have no idea how much. This year Or next (small kids) I am planning to swap the c4 transmission with a toploader 4 speed so I am hoping to see a larger performance increase.

I'm not on the forum much as I have young kids, but I think the forum emails when someone replies if you have questions.

Greg



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Re: GM TBI Fuel Injection

Post #9 by xctasy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:20 am

Econoline wrote:I'm starting to settle on the idea of converting to fuel injection with the spare head I have. I just discovered that fuel injection guru and owner of Hamilton Fuel Injection is 20 minutes down the road. I'd been toying with the idea of using two 1 bbl cfi units and I came across a posting where he built a system for an inline chevy using 2 gm 1v tbi's. I don't really want to be an expert in fuel injection or design my system so I think I'm going to get a hold of him. But in the mean time, one thing I'm pondering and questioning is whether it is better to use a 2v TBI vs 2 1v's with our log head. My thinking is that with 2 1'v you have some injection closer to the ends but the other half of the charge is further away. The center cylinders would still be in the sweet spot. Where would they best be mounted on the log, on either end? Or is it best just to go 2v and call it good enough?

Another thing I don't understand is electronic spark timing. I see all these trigger wheel setups and stuff but are they needed with TBI or only MPI? Can you use the DSII distributor with the vac advance removed, mech locked down, and an 8 pin HEI module to do EST with a GM ECM?




See this.

http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_li ... swap.shtml

Full list of wiring a 2.8 TBi system to a 2bbl 2.8 Ford Ranger 114 hp V6, basically the ages old 2.6/2.8 Carb Capri. Mustang II/ Fox 2.8 and Bronco II/Areostar engine.

Shows you how to did it without software mods.


The wiring...

Image

Shows you how to lock a Ford distributor.

Image

and how to transition the 2bbl Autolite2100/ Motorcraft 2150/ Holley 2300 Ford 2bbl mount to the 2bbl TBi throttle body.

Image

Image

Direct mount using Stanyons method.
http://vintage-vans.forumotion.com/t394 ... og-milling

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72198&p=554386#p554386

stanyon wrote:Milling or machining the head for a direst mount for the Weber really isn't that hard, a couple of hours is what it took me . Search Milling Intake.

http://vintage-vans.forumotion.com/t394 ... og-milling



Image

Image


And MPG Mustangs

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=68406

Image


Image
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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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