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My Tempo EFI conversion

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rmoe88
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My Tempo EFI conversion

Post #1 by rmoe88 » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:19 pm

Well i decided to make a new topic so i can post the progress of the efi conversion of my 200ci. So far i have gathered most of the major components needed. Here is a picture of what i have gathered so far.

Picture

1) A 1986 Ford Tempo 2.0Liter Throttle body, got for $5 on ebay

2) A new injector for the TB for $20 on ebay

3) A new MSD Fuel Pump for $30 from ebay

4) A new NGK narrow band O2 sensor w/o heater element for $15 Summit

5) A new GM air temp sensor for $15 from DIYAutotune

6) A Kit Relay board for $65 from DIYAutotune (i already assembled)

7) a kit Megasquirt 2.2 for $134 from DIYAuthotune

8 ) and finaly, a kit stimulator for $48 from DIYAutotune

Total so far -- $332

Ill post more as i progress :D[/url]
Last edited by rmoe88 on Tue May 01, 2007 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5
"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

Linc's 200

Post #2 by Linc's 200 » Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:21 am

This is going on a 200?

If it is a single injector... it better be a BIG one.

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Post #3 by rmoe88 » Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:35 pm

Linc's 200 -- Size wise it is a big injector compared to other injectors that i have seen. Im not sure what kind of gph it can flow but another member (MustangSix) has said that bumping the fuel presure up to the 45# range might handle up to 140hp. What did the stock 200's make back in the 60's, like 120hp or something? My 200 is bone stock other that a pertronix distributor upgrade (using stock coil). I think the injector will do fine at the stock to fairly stock level.

Today i finished assembling the MegaStim and started the Megasquirt. I had to stop on the Megasquirt because i need some heat-sink compound before i can put the voltage regulator on. Here is a picture.

Picture

BTW, this is my first time putting together a computer board and other than my dad doing the first 2 solder welds to show me how its done, ive put it together on my own :D im proud of myself lol. It even looks good, no burns or visible shorts.
Last edited by rmoe88 on Tue May 01, 2007 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

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Post #4 by XFlow_Fairlane » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:15 pm

looking good!!!

you might need an FMU to really bump up the pressure to get enough flow out of that injector though.

I was looking at (pulled it and haven't made up my mind) a honda TBI unit. has a choke setup on it though and twin injectors....looks almost like it would fit in place of a 5200 (one bolt is visibly moved on it about 1/4" out of a rect pattern) was gonna grab it but looks kinda goofy. it did have a nice bolt on bonnet for the top with a 2" inlet that would have been nice for boost (if it didn't grenade)
Rule: Torque = Fun , Turbo's make Torque

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Post #5 by rmoe88 » Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:13 am

Thanks Turbo!
What do you think the maximum pressure that the injector can be run at it?
I wont realy know untill its all together but i though that the msd fuel pump was a nice pump for its price, like $90 if you get it from summit. Even at 50# its still in the 40gph range.

Image
this is from the msd homepage.

This might be a dumb question but whats an FMU? :D

I havent seen the honda tbi's. If they have 2 injectors and looks like a near fit it might be a nice setup. Still not as cool as the port injection project you got going on now though, cant wait to see it run!
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

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Post #6 by MustangSix » Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:44 am

I think the stock injector is about 79 lbs/hr @ 35 psi. That should be good for up to about 120 - 130 hp. Bump the pressure to 50 psi and it should take you to about 140 hp without issue. That's assuming a BSFC of about 0.50 and roughly 85% duty cycle on the injector.

Much past that and I think you'll bump into issues with airflow vs. required fuel. The beauty of the Tempo CFI is that it is a very nice package with everything in it.
Jack Collins

rmoe88
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Post #7 by rmoe88 » Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:25 pm

Thanks Mustangsix!

Today I , for the most part, finished the megasquirt.

Picture

I still need to fit the end plates to the case and put in the led's. Ive been testing this thing on my computer for a wile and its doing very well. Its still set up on what ever comes preloaded so i havent burned in any of the 200's specs in yet, im about to start doing some research on that now :D .
Could i get the .MSQ file that megatune uses from someone who has made a megasquirted 200ci with a TBI?
Last edited by rmoe88 on Tue May 01, 2007 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

Linc's 200

Post #8 by Linc's 200 » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:00 am

Moe$ wrote:Today I , for the most part, finished the megasquirt.


Rock on!! :thumbup:

Moe$ wrote:Could i get the .MSQ file that megatune uses from someone who has made a megasquirted 200ci with a TBI?


Could you use similar files from another 3.0-3.5 liter engine?

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Post #9 by rmoe88 » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:31 am

Linc, Yea i could use whatever i can get right now, it would be nice to see a working setup to help me program mine :D Ill send you a message bro.
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

Linc's 200

Post #10 by Linc's 200 » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:41 am

Moe$ wrote:Linc, Yea i could use whatever i can get right now, it would be nice to see a working setup to help me program mine :D Ill send you a message bro.


sorry, I don't have one but I hope you do find someone who can help.

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Post #11 by rmoe88 » Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:15 pm

Thanks anyways linc.
So today i have been working on my own .msq files to run the megasquirt. I have never seen a working one so if anyone has one i would love to see it :D

Here is what i have so far. I have no idea if it is a working setup, and it is still a work in progress.
To see it right click the link and press "save as." When i try and save it my browser renames it to an .xml file. When you save it remember to RENAME it to a ".MSQ" file to see it in the MegaTune program.

http://www.freewebs.com/rjscite/megasqu ... ngFile.msq

If anyone sees any minor, and most likely major flaws PLEASE let me know!

One question i have is how many squirts per cycle (720*) do i put on a single injector TBI? right now i have it at 3 because that puts the injector at the recomended flow rate as described in the manual. What do you guys think?

Thanks guys.
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

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Post #12 by XFlow_Fairlane » Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:26 pm

should have 6 per 720* 3 per 360*
Rule: Torque = Fun , Turbo's make Torque

rmoe88
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Post #13 by rmoe88 » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:21 pm

Turbo, are the injector squirts timed up to the intake strokes even on throttle body injection? How would all of the injected fuel reach the cylinder in time?

I have changed the .msq to reflect 6 injections per 720*. As of right now it has a dutycycle of ~48% @ 6000rpm w/ 6 injection pulses of 1.6ms. This seems a bit low, does this make sense to anyone?
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

Linc's 200

Post #14 by Linc's 200 » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:33 pm

Moe$ wrote:Turbo, are the injector squirts timed up to the intake strokes even on throttle body injection? How would all of the injected fuel reach the cylinder in time?


It can't, and it won't.

Moe$ wrote:I have changed the .msq to reflect 6 injections per 720*. As of right now it has a dutycycle of ~48% @ 6000rpm w/ 6 injection pulses of 1.6ms. This seems a bit low, does this make sense to anyone?


If you could, would double the number of squirts and make the duration half. That way you still get the same volume, but it is spread out so the air flowing through has a better chance to mix with the fuel.

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Post #15 by rmoe88 » Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:30 pm

"It can't, and it won't. " Yea, i had a hard time seeing that being true.

"double the number of squirts and make the duration half. That way you still get the same volume, but it is spread out so the air flowing through has a better chance to mix with the fuel." I see where your going with that. Keep the same amount of fuel getting into the intake but spread it out so it mixes with the air better. Unfortunatly megatune wont let me go above 6 squirts. If i put i had 8 cylinders i can bunp it up to 8 squirts but ill stay at 6 untill i get the basics figured out.

Anyone have anymore help with my .msq? :D
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

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Post #16 by larryejoh » Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:44 pm

I've been running the Taurus throttle body on my 73 Bronco with a 200 for about 8 months. I've got about 17,000 miles on it so far. I believe the Taurus and the Tempo throttle bodies are the same except for the injector. I am running the Taurus injector which is colored green. It is a 64 lb. injector instead of the 56 lb. Tempo injector which is colored blue. I am running a Ford truck high pressure pump and Mega Squirt I 3.0. I've got my fuel pressure set at 20 psi. I have been using a Dura spark distributor and a MSD box using vacuum advance from a port I drilled into the throttle body. I'm getting ready to up grade to Mega Squirt II and use the computer to control the spark advance. I drive from 100 to 250 mile a day for work with may Bronco and haven't had any problems with this set up. I have made up to 23 mpg but average 20 at 65-70 mph. I am working on getting overdrive to help this. And I am running 6 injections per cycle.

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Post #17 by rmoe88 » Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:39 pm

Very cool Larryejoh! Its good to know someone else has got the taurus/tempo setup working.
I am also running the green injector from a taurus. Do you think i could get a copy of your .msq that your using? :D
How is your fuel system doing at 20psi?

Today all i got done was i mounted my new fuel pump to the car. I put it in the trunk just infront of the fuel tank. The fuel line from the tank to the pump will only be about 6" so that should make up for the pump being just above the fuel tank. Ill take a picture of my fuel delivery system once i get the lines run and filters inplace.
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

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Post #18 by larryejoh » Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:51 am

Yes I can try to send that to you. It does fine at 20 psi. The stock pressure that the injector is rated at is 16 psi. I had to adjust it up to 20. tbi usually runs at a low pressure. The only problem you will have to overcome is the idle soleiod. The stock Tempo/Taurus idle control soleiod requires the use of MS II. I am using a one wire fast idle soleiod off of a 80's GM that is either on or off. This gives me a set fast idle till it warms up and then it drops out. I am planning to go with the stock idle control soleiod when I go with the MS II.

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Post #19 by XFlow_Fairlane » Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:26 am

on the MS- I will a gm idle valve work? the stepper motor style? tha tis what my gm TB has and I think it would be easy to adapt in place of a ford IAC motor.
Rule: Torque = Fun , Turbo's make Torque

Linc's 200

Post #20 by Linc's 200 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:02 pm

larryejoh wrote: I am using a one wire fast idle soleiod off of a 80's GM that is either on or off. This gives me a set fast idle till it warms up and then it drops out.


same way carbed engines were in the 70's when you turned the A/C on.

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Post #21 by rmoe88 » Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:45 pm

Last weekend was our big back to the desert trip so i didn't do anything that whole week :( though the desert was a blast 8) . Today i took the carb off to see if the TB would fit. The 2 bolt holes were very close, only the threads of the intake studs kept it from sliding on. A little dremmeling and it fits right on. The next issue i have to take care of is the throttle blade is a tad bigger than the older one. Since the throttle blade is a circle i will only need to take a small amount of metal off of 2 points on the intake log. I will do that sunday. I will hopefully get the return fuel line run sunday also. I also got a air filter system set up. A 3" rubber hose from Napa will adapt the oval shape of the TB to the round shape of the Polished Aluminum intake tube, which has a import style cone airfilter on the end of it. It looks really slick, i cant wait to get it mounted up for good :D
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

rmoe88
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Post #22 by rmoe88 » Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:10 pm

Picture

This is what i got done this weekend. Instead of grinding the little plate that sits on top of the intake log (it has the line to the heater core running through it) I took it off and it fits. I dont have a TPS for it yet, and it looks like it is going to be a close fit because it is very close to the valve cover. i looked up a picture on napas site and it looks like it will fit but i will need to get one to be sure. After i get everything together i might cut the aluminum tube to get the airfilter back a little farther. I am also thinking of putting the battery somewhere else, like the trunk maybe, and making an air box for the air filter where the battery is now and cutting the front sheet metal to make it cold air intake. Still just playing around with some ideas. Too bad that this is my only car, i have to take everything back apart and put the carb back on before it gets dark :([/url]
Last edited by rmoe88 on Tue May 01, 2007 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

Linc's 200

Post #23 by Linc's 200 » Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:31 pm

Moe$ wrote: I am also thinking of putting the battery somewhere else, like the trunk maybe, and making an air box for the air filter where the battery is now


That is my vote! :thumbup:

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Post #24 by rmoe88 » Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:59 pm

Ya, that sounded like a good idea to me too :D .

I have some questions now though.

#1 is about the distributors vaccum advance. Im using a dizzy with weights and vaccum advance. Do i need to get its vaccum from below the throttle blades or can it be from above? If its below it will get some strange vaccum pressures durring a rapid close of the throttle, like shifting, wont it? Where should i make the hole for the vaccum advance?

#2 is about my plan for my IAT sensors location. I was going to mount it in the rubber hose connecting my TB and airfilter. This way it wont get much heat soak, and it is still very accurate to what the air temps are. Is this an ok location?

#3 is about the sheet metal in the front of the engine bay (dont know its real name) i would guess that this is a structual part of the car. If i cut a hole in it for cold air would i have to put some support bars in around the hole?
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

Linc's 200

Post #25 by Linc's 200 » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:24 am

#1 Doesn't your megaquirt control your timing??

#2 anywhere between the air fliter and throttle plate is fine

#3 not if you make the hole nice and round. That isn't nearly as structural as the shock towers are.

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Post #26 by rmoe88 » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:27 pm

no im only using the megasquirt to control the fuel as of right now. Some day i will deffinetly get spark controll working on it aswell, i cant remember right now but i think i just need to install a piggyback board onto my computer so it can handle that. Ill do that after i get the fuel part working.

#2,3 ok, thats what i needed to know :D

Still have my question about where to put the distributors vacc advance port at, any ideas?
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

Linc's 200

Post #27 by Linc's 200 » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:37 pm

I assume there is no "ported" vacuum port in the TB....

You may as well just use manifold vacuum for the advance, see what happens. The 1979 Ford Fairmont we had used manifold vacuum for the advance.

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Post #28 by larryejoh » Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:01 pm

Moe

I drilled a small hole in the side of the throttle body in the same location that the Carter had it's port. This is above the plates with the throttle closed and below the plates when they began to open. I countered sunk the hole to a larger diameter so I can put a hose nipple on it. I put JB weld around it to hold it in. Be carefull in drilling the counter sunk hole you don't need it very deep.

Larry

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Post #29 by 69Falcon » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:44 pm

Hey Moe$, any updates?
Chuck
Always thinking too much...

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Post #30 by FrankBoss » Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:43 pm

Moe or Larry

I would like to hear more about this...
Post a few more pics of your install.
And give use a update and possible thoughts of upgrades to you existing systems?


Frank

www.PintoWorks.com
1960 Falcon 2 Door wagon *new 3.3L comp260 Cam* FrankBoss Carb adapter 5200 Holley. Duraspark 2 conversion MSD Blaster 3 coil,Altinator conversion, 8 inch rear end.5speed
Soon to have Oz 2V (found a Intake) now machining for over sized valves
1972 Pinto~ *289 Dual4's, 4 speed*
I'm always looking for Pintos or parts.
1984 Ranger *2.3L EFI IC Turbo & 5 Speed*
PintoWorks.com

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Post #31 by fordconvert » Thu Feb 01, 2007 6:58 pm

Im all ears too, this sounds cool and affordable!
TJ H

Had a 66 mustang coupe, traded in for a 93 convert 2.3.
73 Eldorado convert 8.2 megasquirt, 80 Eldorado 5.7 diesel, 96 Suburban 6.5TD, 05 Magnum 5.7 hemi.

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Post #32 by rmoe88 » Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:10 am

Wow, i havent checked this thread for a wile, its good to know people are actualy reading my stuff :D Well i will be getting back on this progect very soon, within a week hopefuly!

The reason i have had this big delay is because my transmission went out some time ago and i was forced to take on a new project unfortunatly, but that one is almost done.

If you have time to kill and would like to see how my t-5 transmission conversion is coming along here is the link http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39794

Oooo yea, About a week ago i got my Fuel Line kit from JEGS, it came with 25' of steel line and all the tools to install it. Maybe tomarrow after i do some stuff that i need to do on my transmission i will run the fuel line. If i do, i will have pictures and if you guys want ill put some do's and dont's of how to run hard line, learned the hard way of course 8)
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

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Post #33 by FrankBoss » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:18 pm

I went and looked at some TBIs today...most had the green jet...are there other injector options that will fit these TBI's?

I'm really digging this consept. a TBI and a SMALL ihi turbo would liven up the little motor....or just a TBI and a 5speed.

I think I'm going to buy into this progect with a newer 79 head.

Frank
1960 Falcon 2 Door wagon *new 3.3L comp260 Cam* FrankBoss Carb adapter 5200 Holley. Duraspark 2 conversion MSD Blaster 3 coil,Altinator conversion, 8 inch rear end.5speed
Soon to have Oz 2V (found a Intake) now machining for over sized valves
1972 Pinto~ *289 Dual4's, 4 speed*
I'm always looking for Pintos or parts.
1984 Ranger *2.3L EFI IC Turbo & 5 Speed*
PintoWorks.com

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Post #34 by fordconvert » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:33 pm

Also if someone could list which cars, years, and engines had these TBI's on them?
TJ H

Had a 66 mustang coupe, traded in for a 93 convert 2.3.
73 Eldorado convert 8.2 megasquirt, 80 Eldorado 5.7 diesel, 96 Suburban 6.5TD, 05 Magnum 5.7 hemi.

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Post #35 by rmoe88 » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:49 pm

FordConvert -- yea thats the part that sucks... i only know of a few aplications that ford put this TBI on. Off the top of my head, they put them on the 85-87 tempo taurus topaz and the mercury sable 4 cyl. Before that they had carbs and after that they went to multiport. These are just places to begin looking please check to make sure its the right thing you need before ordering it, dont take my "off the top of my head" as solid fact.

FrankBoss -- If i can remember right the green jets are the larger of the 2 that came in these TBI units. Also, people have bumped up the pressure in the fuel line to far greater pressure than they were runnin stock, which would increase the amount of fuel per squirt that is injected. I dont know if you can get any different injectors on this thing :( maybe someone on this forum has a better answer for you. yea, this is a fairly simple setup and i think will be very nice for a mild turbo motor, unless you find out how to get even more out of the injector then you could go crazy with the turbo. Eventualy i want to go turbo aswell, but that will have to wait some time.

I didnt get that line run like i said i was going to :( Ive been having bad headacks on and off but i will get it done very soon so that i can tell you guys how well it works :D
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

Linc's 200

Post #36 by Linc's 200 » Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:19 am

Moe$ wrote: I dont know if you can get any different injectors on this thing. Maybe someone on this forum has a better answer for you.


Post a pic, I'll tell you if it looks like a conventional injector. If so, you can swap a 160 LPH into it, which would flow more fuel than the TB can flow air, unless it is boosted.

Moe$ wrote:Yea, this is a fairly simple setup and i think will be very nice for a mild turbo motor, unless you find out how to get even more out of the injector then you could go crazy with the turbo.


You can always add auxillary injectors for more fuel under boost, as well.

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Post #37 by Ranchero63 » Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:20 am

tempo CFI injector...

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Post #38 by FrankBoss » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:43 am

it lookes like the injector would be the limitation on this package. the TB should flow better than the HW or the Carter carbs... I'm really impressed.

I just bought a TBI with injector for 35 bucks. Some of these cars have Aluminium base and others have a cast iron base...but they both look the same. Once i saw one in a little ford I saw them all over the friggin salvage yard. Most were pushrod 2.3L motors.

I've even thought about running a dual TBI on the log head.

One thing at a time...I'm suffering from transmisson issues at the moment so I will study the MS system while working on a 5 speed swap.

Frank
1960 Falcon 2 Door wagon *new 3.3L comp260 Cam* FrankBoss Carb adapter 5200 Holley. Duraspark 2 conversion MSD Blaster 3 coil,Altinator conversion, 8 inch rear end.5speed
Soon to have Oz 2V (found a Intake) now machining for over sized valves
1972 Pinto~ *289 Dual4's, 4 speed*
I'm always looking for Pintos or parts.
1984 Ranger *2.3L EFI IC Turbo & 5 Speed*
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Post #39 by rmoe88 » Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:24 am

wow, your transmission went out too? This efi Must be cursed, or it just demands that you use it with a 5 speed 8) . You can PM me if you have any questions selecting or building your MegaSquirt, be glad to help. Running 2 of these tbi units on your egnine would be very trick, if you have the time and another car to drive around it would me GREAT to see something like that built!

Link -- thats a cool idea to keep in mind, maybe even a NOS style 2nd gas injection when your up in the rpm's. A second steady flow of gas into the engine would alow the stock injector to slow down wile still getting your desired air mixture. Just an idea...
65 Falcon, 200ci, EFI, T5

"I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

Linc's 200

Post #40 by Linc's 200 » Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:42 pm

FrankBoss wrote:I've even thought about running a dual TBI on the log head.


Having them spilt up so that one TB feeds three cyls would be ideal, but you better have your game on when it comes to getting it set-up, because it won't be easy! I wonder if you could link them together with a shaft so that both open while using only one TPS sensor. I don't know how you add the function of a second TPS into the computer functions.

A better idea would be to use a 2-bbl CFI TBI from a 84-up 3.8 or 5.0 Mustang, etc. You can use "regular" injectors in those!

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Post #41 by FrankBoss » Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:57 pm

I think running two smaller ones would be good... yes you can make them opperate in sink off one TPS. and with two you can possition them more centeral to the cilanders, putting a simi-divider in the log carb opening and making two new holes on each side.
Those little TBs are ready to plumb since they have their own Hat. hook up the hose to a filter or a force induction device....Funny I have a pair of little turbos waiting for me to put then on something:)

I'm not anywere close to being sharp enought to build a MS by myeself so I will look for some help....but it looks like its do-able.

I did look at the 5.0 and 3.8 TBs.... I might swap out all my old carbed cars to EFI if this works....yippy...maybe not

Frank
1960 Falcon 2 Door wagon *new 3.3L comp260 Cam* FrankBoss Carb adapter 5200 Holley. Duraspark 2 conversion MSD Blaster 3 coil,Altinator conversion, 8 inch rear end.5speed
Soon to have Oz 2V (found a Intake) now machining for over sized valves
1972 Pinto~ *289 Dual4's, 4 speed*
I'm always looking for Pintos or parts.
1984 Ranger *2.3L EFI IC Turbo & 5 Speed*
PintoWorks.com

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Post #42 by Bort62 » Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:08 pm

Doing stuff like multiple (independant) throttle bodies or adding additional injectors to come on at rpm is mostly defeating the purpose of EFI in the first place. Thats thinking with a carb frame of mind.

The point of a fuel injection system is that it is able to meet all your engines needs with one system. An EFI system can deliver the right amount of fuel at idle and at 6000 rpm @ 20 psi. It doesn't need any special extra hardware to do so - You just need to set it up properly in the first place.

The whole point of the system is that the software has the ability to appropriately meter fuel in all situations. You don't need external devices to add fuel under boost or anything like that.

So all this crap about extra injectors or dual throttle bodies and everything else is applying a carburetion way of thinking to a fuel injected system - and what you get is the worst of both worlds.

That's one reason a LS6 can get 27 mpg on the freeway and 400 HP at the wheels.

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Post #43 by FrankBoss » Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:52 pm

Crap.. we arre talking TBI(they are crap in the first placeand cheap)...you still benifit with the injector being closer to the intake runners the ... so by dividing the intake and using two units non independant(they can be small) you would benifit. Not too different as a single two barrel TBI just split for distrubution benifits.

After all its alot easier to drill two carb mount type Holes than drilling and welding bungs for Tune port injection...after all you have to start somewhere... And to start I will try a single unit like Moes and Larry.

I like carbs... I know carbs. This will be a intro to Fuel injection for me. thuse I cant loose, I might fail but I will learn.

So to take IDEAS and call them CRAP is a little Lopsided from my point of view...nothing wrong with exporation....even if it is crap and being done buy performance and Hot rod companies as we speak.....

Might as well say why dont you just drop a Fuel injected V8 , or even a CHEVY...

I'm cool with it... I'm off to RadioShack...start collecting my parts...

Frank
1960 Falcon 2 Door wagon *new 3.3L comp260 Cam* FrankBoss Carb adapter 5200 Holley. Duraspark 2 conversion MSD Blaster 3 coil,Altinator conversion, 8 inch rear end.5speed
Soon to have Oz 2V (found a Intake) now machining for over sized valves
1972 Pinto~ *289 Dual4's, 4 speed*
I'm always looking for Pintos or parts.
1984 Ranger *2.3L EFI IC Turbo & 5 Speed*
PintoWorks.com

Linc's 200

Post #44 by Linc's 200 » Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:56 am

Ian Moore,
a lot of really high HP cars are switching to two injectors per cylinder. Smaller injectors needed for good driveability can't flow enough at peak HP, and by the time you get an injector big enough to flow the fuel you need at peak HP, the ability of it to meter properly at idle is nil.


everything is a compromise.....even with EFI

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Post #45 by XFlow_Fairlane » Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:52 am

linc I think the idea of twin TEMPO tbi's is that the injector in them can't readily be upgraded, it will bolt in place of a 1v carb, and will be able to supply enough fuel in a boosted app. but NA one of these is all we need.
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Post #46 by 69Falcon » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:29 am

Bort62 wrote:Doing stuff like multiple (independant) throttle bodies or adding additional injectors to come on at rpm is mostly defeating the purpose of EFI in the first place. Thats thinking with a carb frame of mind.


Nothing is absolute. The 13B rotary engine had two pair of fuel injectors. The primary pair was used for idle and up to mid-range rpms when the secondary injectors would then kick in. On the normally aspirated 13B it was timed to the opening of a pair of extra intake ports (commonly referred to as the 5th and 6th ports) that opened at a given backpressure from the exhaust. On the turbo cars (which only had 4 intake ports) the secondary fuel injectors were mapped to the amount of boost being delivered. Delivered an extremely smooth idle, lower emissions for the motor, yet could supply plenty of power at the top end. Extremely well thought out designs that worked well using "additional injectors". Not such a "crap" idea and really not at all like a carb.
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Post #47 by FrankBoss » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:24 pm

The early Corvette Cross Fire was a dual TBI system as well....

But I'm not totaly you would have to add another TB or a second jet.
it might be more worth while to machine the jet opening to receive another style of TBI jet... maybe make a bung to slide into the opening...

Frank
1960 Falcon 2 Door wagon *new 3.3L comp260 Cam* FrankBoss Carb adapter 5200 Holley. Duraspark 2 conversion MSD Blaster 3 coil,Altinator conversion, 8 inch rear end.5speed
Soon to have Oz 2V (found a Intake) now machining for over sized valves
1972 Pinto~ *289 Dual4's, 4 speed*
I'm always looking for Pintos or parts.
1984 Ranger *2.3L EFI IC Turbo & 5 Speed*
PintoWorks.com

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Post #48 by Bort62 » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:25 pm

Linc's 200 wrote:Ian Moore,
a lot of really high HP cars are switching to two injectors per cylinder. Smaller injectors needed for good driveability can't flow enough at peak HP, and by the time you get an injector big enough to flow the fuel you need at peak HP, the ability of it to meter properly at idle is nil.


everything is a compromise.....even with EFI


You need to run into a REALLY big injector to have min pulsewidth issues at idle. I am not aware of any production vehicle that uses a multi injector scheme. That doesn't mean that there isn't, but it is hardly commonplace.

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Post #49 by Bort62 » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:30 pm

69Falcon wrote:
Bort62 wrote:Doing stuff like multiple (independant) throttle bodies or adding additional injectors to come on at rpm is mostly defeating the purpose of EFI in the first place. Thats thinking with a carb frame of mind.


Nothing is absolute. The 13B rotary engine had two pair of fuel injectors. The primary pair was used for idle and up to mid-range rpms when the secondary injectors would then kick in. On the normally aspirated 13B it was timed to the opening of a pair of extra intake ports (commonly referred to as the 5th and 6th ports) that opened at a given backpressure from the exhaust. On the turbo cars (which only had 4 intake ports) the secondary fuel injectors were mapped to the amount of boost being delivered. Delivered an extremely smooth idle, lower emissions for the motor, yet could supply plenty of power at the top end. Extremely well thought out designs that worked well using "additional injectors". Not such a "crap" idea and really not at all like a carb.


Of course nothing is absolute, but the 13B is an entirely different motor with a different set of needs. (primary among which a hugely different RPM band). It is an extreme case and hardly the norm. No one is going to build a ford 6 that winds to 9k but still needs to idle like glass at 600 rpm.

I have built a few and tuned a lot of fuel injection systems and understanding how the situation works is paramount to getting the most out of it. People have an old school way of thinking burned into their minds that makes them think they need to come up with all of these clever ideas. It's just not really the case 95% of the time.

It's the kind of thinking that makes people talk about "street tune" vs "Track tune". With EFI, its the same tune...

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Post #50 by Bort62 » Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:40 pm

FrankBoss wrote:The early Corvette Cross Fire was a dual TBI system as well....

But I'm not totaly you would have to add another TB or a second jet.
it might be more worth while to machine the jet opening to receive another style of TBI jet... maybe make a bung to slide into the opening...

Frank



And the early (or any CFI) system sucked too. I've worked on a few - it's the laughing stock of GM fuel injection.

The only reason you would need to add additional throttle bodies to an EFI system is because you needed more CFM. In that case, the more appropriate approach 90% of the time is to use a larger TB. If you need more CFM on one of these heads and you decide to machine it to use two 1bbl tb's in parallel what you are really doing is just creating a 2 bbl tb. it's the same damn thing.. If you need more fuel than the stock tempo injector can handle, then why not just bite the bullet and move to MPFI?

Besides... TBI is less than ideal for performance any way you try to stack it.

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