New To MS, Learning basics

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MPGmustang

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okay, i'm really only posting to learn, I've been reading the more active threads and searching some older threads. But I'm still really lost in this all.

reason for learning, more of a what if.

WHAT IF... I changed my single barrel carb to a throttle body?
what... would I need?
I read, I can use a dizzy, I'm not getting rid of my DUI. Even if I don't get full advantage

I have a 1.75" bore on the log head, I wouldn't change anything but the carb to TB... what size? 43mm? from what?

The fact that I should be able to control Idle, A/F, and when the A/C kicks on... with the press of a botton (maybe I have this wrong?)

I don't understand completely yet, so sorry if I ask questions that seem no brainers.

Richard
 
1 bbl throttle bodies were not that common, especially in a form factor that lends itself to our sixes. GM used a few of em but they were almost the size of a 2bbl. The Tempo throttle body you have likely read about here is the closest fit but was only made for a few years in the early 80s so they can be harder to find. Holley at one time made a 1bbl but I have very rarely seen one for sale used. I have seen 1bbl throttle bodies that look sort of like the old Hillborn setups or 1bbl webbers, they use a normal bosh style injector and sometimes are hidden by a fake bowl. A single injector maxes out at around 150hp.

If you already have the DUI I would not worry about that for now. It will work fine the way it is. Eventually you will likely want to modify it so you can control the timing with the computer but I have found when you are starting out just getting the fuel to work is enough of a challenge so you dont need to add timing into the mix if you dont have to.

I have not really looked into the fast idle for ac options. I assume those options are in there somewhere.
 
I found this... would this work?
http://www.extrudabody.biz/servlet/the- ... ody/Detail
I could get it in the 45mm (1.75 inch = 44.45mm)

or should I do the 2 to 1bbll adaptor with a 2bbl TB? (that way I would ahve 2 injectores and make it more of a secondary for the setup.

after the TB what else is needed, I think I would need the computer, the sensor. is that all?

I'm sure it would need the dwell reading from the dizzy, what about fuel? would I need a better pump? a return line?

thanks for your help!
Richard
 
That TB is interesting. Certainly no issue with airflow there. I dont have time to read further but you would need some sort of fuel rail/ regulator setup to connect to the injector. I assume they also sell such things. You would need a return line and an electric pump. Normally throttle bodies only run about 15 psi. I expect using the multiport injector would require higher pressure which would be a little more work as far as lines and such. The return line is fairly easy because its fairly low pressure. Often times on old cars people just tap that into the filler neck. The Megamanual is pretty good about explaining sensors and such so read up there on that stuff.

I will try to give you a few more tips when I have some time.
 
WHOA!! just googled the MegaManual, That's alot of info... I think it would be easier to just get one that's ready to install.

I can't think of more sensors than the AFR... if it was to control only the fuel system...

well I think I have found the place that I need to read the most... Thank you

Richard
 
Its good to read even if you dont plan on having to do it all yourself. It gives you part numbers for the basic sensors you will need to pick up. Let us know what questions you come up with after reading.
 
Most EFI units use the same basic sensors: Throttle position (TPS), Manifold Pressure (MAP), Coolant temp (CLT), Intake air temp (IAT), and sometimes an Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor (O2). In addition, there has to be some kind of pickup to determine engine speed and ignition firing.

Late model OEM systems also add a lot of other functions and sensors to deal with transmissions, warnings, vehicle speed, traction control, throttle-by-wire, etc.

The Megasquirt seems complex because it has the ability to adapt to almost anything, but underneath it works the same way as most others.
 
Okay...

so I've been thinking and learning about this whole setup... I'm not really a programmer, but just for kicks and giggles...

Which system could dial in the most accurately?
F.A.S.T. that "learns"
RetroTek speed that "learns"
MS?

the reason why... what would you get if you combined a Offenhauser with 3x1 TB's? i'm thinking 40mm x 3 = 120mm, but stagered/progressive throttle response.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=63444
viewtopic.php?f=51&t=54149

What would be the most simple way of getting the throttle linked up? electric? the MS could control speeds, so technically I could run off the center TB at cruise speeds, until I hit the gas then the outside kick in at a different ratio than the center tuned to an art...

also, RetroTek Speed offers a "returnless" fuel pump??? is that safe for this kind of setup? or would it be best that I stick with the tried and true?

couldn't a MSI do this since I don't need the spark control? or since it's progressive a MSII would be best..

what do you guy's think about this "waht if" setup?
 
MPGmustang":2v6cicq0 said:
Okay...

the reason why... what would you get if you combined a Offenhauser with 3x1 TB's? i'm thinking 40mm x 3 = 120mm, but stagered/progressive throttle response.

What would be the most simple way of getting the throttle linked up? electric? the MS could control speeds, so technically I could run off the center TB at cruise speeds, until I hit the gas then the outside kick in at a different ratio than the center tuned to an art...
Click to expand...

There is a thread on here somewhere that discusses a progressive throttle body EFI.

Don't think of throttle bodies in the same way you think of carburetors. If you have three, use all three at once. This will give you the best fuel/air distribution. I can't think of any manufacturer that uses throttle bodies progressively; they may use additional injectors with a turbocharger, but that's about it.
 
Hello again,
I contacted 2 places and ask them the same thing, one gave a quote for 3tb's and a way to connect them for 3k, and ExtrudaBody gave a quote of 1k and they will even assemble it for me to just bolt it on. (my kind of upgrade)
Hey Richard:
We could Build to the Manifold in the Link with 3 of our 45mm ITB’s and feed 200hp with 3 x 450cc/min injectors and still have a great Idle. The Manifolds straight Bolt Pattern not a Diagonal pattern like most other type Carbs is a little bit of a Challenge, but workable from our perspective! We would have to Design and Engineer a 2 part base plate or some other solution, but still doable and we could keep it simple and cost effective!

...... If you sent us the manifold we would all the assembly for free for you, then all you need to do is bolt it on the motor.....

Thanks!
Kevin Thornton
http://www.extrudabody.com
Click to expand...

again this is just research, I'm finding places to go and what to pick up...

So as a parts list... rough estimate....
say EB (Extrudabody) built the manifold up and added a 300 for R&D,
$1300...... TB's Assembly
$300........ MSII ECU
$200......... Fuel return and pump
$150......... Cable throttle setup
$100......... Misc wire/connectors
$150......... Sensors
______
$2200 total-ish



does this seem right? I'm sure it's more if I went this route...

There has to be a cheaper solution... (junk yards for motorcycles??)
 
for sensors, would it be smart to put in a O2 sensor in both exhausts? or just one?

i'm asking cause what if one side is more lean than the other? I don't have a port divider so I don't know all exhaust gasses are the same or not... is there a way for MS2 to calculate both and use the average of the 2 sensors in real time?

Thanks
Richard
 
well I'm thinking of changing my mind...

what about the 2bbl TBI kits? the ones for bent8's? I'd send in my head for a 2bbl upgrade that can accept a holley.

should I look for a 400cfm or a 670cfm? if it's controled by computer then wouldn't the 670cfm be okay as the AFR is always adjusting?
Wouldn't a kit be ideal for a daily driver?

what do you guy's think? woudn't a 2bbl kit seem cheaper than a custom tripple Individual TBI?

I saw the Holley Avenger 670cfm, they also have a 400cfm TB too. I'm thinking that since it's computer controled the CFM would be better.

Richard
 
The typical low pressure low impedance TBI injectors have severe limitations as far as how little you can get them to squirt so I doubt you would be able to get a 200 to idle with the 2 85lbhr injectors that would typically come with the 670 throttle body. Apparently there are fairly new high pressure bosh style (multiport) injectors that have a much wider range. I have a Holley 670 2bbl TBI w/ 2 85 lbhr injectors on it on my 500cid Caddy running off a MS2. I actually had too much throttle response with that setup. It was very difficult to accelerate from a stop without breaking the tires loose especially if the road was sandy or wet. I finally ended up lengthening the linkage so it took more travel of the pedal vs. the throttle and its now drivable. I would think it would be difficult to get the driveability good on a 200 with that size throttle body. The 400 CFM unit would likely be a better choice and I would expect that would come with something in the ballpark of 50lbhr injectors which would put you close to 200 hp available. I have had that 670 running on my 500 for 3? years now and as far as I can tell I have not run out of air or fuel yet so I think 400 will be plenty for a 200.
 
thank you fordconvert!
I ask becasue holley mentioned that the 400 was good for 100-210hp and the 670 is good for 125-275hp, both kits are the same price, I just thought get the bigger, but your experience makes sense.

The holley kit setup runs $1700 with thier 2bbl TBI and all sensors/wireing. it's a "bolt on TBI kit" I wouldn't mind an ease of installation.
I have found it here
http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/950-20S/10002/-1
but more serching and i have this
http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/502-20S/10002/-1
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-502-20S
@ $1000, :D

I'm sure I can substitue the 400cfm TB, but other than that they look the same except for the learning curve that the commander has. I think I can live without that.

what do u guys think?
 
Someone on this forum fuel injected a 200 by using MS with a Tempo TBI unit. This TBI unit includes a single injector, throttle positioning sensor, and fuel pressure regulator. It bolts right onto the carb flange of our inlines without an adapter (Tempo engine is a 200 with two cylinders removed). It works as long as you don't have a lot of performance mods.

There is also a website where someone installed a GM twin injector TBi from an S-10 onto a Classic Bronco with a 250. I use to have a link for it; I'll look and post it later.
 
I have heard some very good things about FAST EFI and if I get around to another project am going to consider them.

http://www.fuelairspark.com/

But of course like most of the rest of them they cater to the 350 and up. May be worth a call to see if they are thinking about anything for smaller engines. Holley used to have a 1bbl system but they did not make it for very long.
 
rocklord":24hhb1df said:
Someone on this forum fuel injected a 200 by using MS with a Tempo TBI unit. This TBI unit includes a single injector, throttle positioning sensor, and fuel pressure regulator. It bolts right onto the carb flange of our inlines without an adapter (Tempo engine is a 200 with two cylinders removed). It works as long as you don't have a lot of performance mods.

There is also a website where someone installed a GM twin injector TBi from an S-10 onto a Classic Bronco with a 250. I use to have a link for it; I'll look and post it later.
Click to expand...
Thanks Rocklord!, Yes I do remember I've read that post also, I thought of that route, but I do have many mod's in this already, and keep on planning more. The complete system will give me a basic hands on learning curve without the guessing. maybe in the future when I have a car that's not much of a daily driver i'll try messing around with the MS system and custom parts.

fordconvert":24hhb1df said:
I have heard some very good things about FAST EFI and if I get around to another project am going to consider them.

http://www.fuelairspark.com/

But of course like most of the rest of them they cater to the 350 and up. May be worth a call to see if they are thinking about anything for smaller engines. Holley used to have a 1bbl system but they did not make it for very long.
Click to expand...
I have emailed them in the past, I'll ask about this route, maybe they have a 2bbl TBI kit just not shown. would be good to do full research and ask around. I have also considered retrotech, they do have a returnless fuel pump that i'm positive can keep up with this system, unless it is cheaper to run the extra line.
 
If you are planning to eventually do a boosted system and perhaps other constant changes that is where MS really shines because its pretty much infinitely configurable.
 
I've been thinking of the boosted application for a while, but I just can't wrap my head around it. and honestly I don't want to brake anything because I'm having too much fun. besides, it's a daily and I don't need any more red light photos... :eek: :roll:

so I've been looking around for a decent kit at a decent price.
I have found
http://howellefi.com/tbi-kit-universal-v-6.html

meant for bent 6's, so should work with my application.

I have been really thinking about the options out there. and I honestly like a system that plugs in and "tunes" itself. the less work from me the better. I like the preformance from the pony carb but still want more! :eek:

I'm still searching... if anyone has any other "kit's" please post.

Thanks guy's!
Richard
 
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