Best EFI controller for MPFI/EDIS/Turbo?

CoupeBoy

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Eventually I will have a 300/MPFI/Turbo

A few additional things I would like are
Coil on plug
Multiple fuel maps (economy/power/E85)
EDIS
Sequential fuel injection
Knock sensor

I am also going to want tuning and monitoring tools.

Has anybody got a suggestion on a system that can do all?
 
I can't tell you what the "best" controller is for you because that is completely subjective. I can offer you an opinion based on my own experience, but that's all.

If you have no previous experience in programmable EFI then I would suggest that your long term goals are quite ambitious to say the least. I say this not to try to discourage you, but rather to stress the importance of tuning as opposed to hardware. It's really all about tuning. The more sophisticated a controller is, the more difficult it is to tune it to optimum because you have so many options. How many options can you realistically deal with?

When you think of it, the cost of the hardware is insignificant when compared with the hours you will spend tuning. You probably don't want to hear this, but there is no easy answer. Yes, many offer "easy tune" or "self learning" or whatever, but the bottom line is, if you want to get the best out of what you've got, it just takes time and hard work, which in itself can be very rewarding.

If you're just getting in to engine tuning I'd suggest getting the minimum for whatever engine and controller you have in mind. There are lots on the market. Get your feet wet. When you are at the point where you need finer control, then upgrade, you will have learned a lot by then.

Too much information too soon can be quite frustrating.
 
The thread could have been called.. have you ever used a product that could do....
E40Dnut":1wym65v3 said:
I can't tell you what the "best" controller is for you because that is completely subjective. I can offer you an opinion based on my own experience, but that's all.
You offered experience, which is appreciated, but not an opinion of any particular system...

I have no problem delving into the bowels of systems.. BS in computer Science, took assembly classes for both Motorola MC68000 and Intel 8086. The electrical part of it, assembly and such, I am really not that interested in(PCM soldering) as for wiring a car, I'm good with that, but 6-8hrs (their estimate) with a soldering iron does not sound like a good time. I don't want to buy a limited system and find out later that if I want this feature or that feature I have to buy a whole new system, or that to add features it doubles the costs of the system. Something to grow into, not out of.

What I was hoping to get was some people's real world experience with varying systems. For example, Will (Does10's) bought an off the shelf self learning system, seems to work pretty well for him, but would it also read from crank trigger or support the coil on plug?

You seem to really like the Megasquirt products, and I'd assume if you needed another EFI system you'd use it again. But what other tools do you need to buy for datalogging tweaking and tuning. One of the biggest turnoffs (if you can call it that) for MS is that there website in an effort to be transparent appears to have been written by Electrical Engineers for Electrical Engineers. When I attended college our instructor for a class called "Human Computer Interaction" on the very first day said that no programmer should ever be allowed to design the interface of anything that is going to be consumed by the general public. He stated that we would make a lot of features that we thought were cool but would have very little relevance to the end user, their main website has that feeling to it. Sometimes all you really want is the dummed down version.. I found the configuration page once it had links, if you want this feature, use this add on..

My cousin owns an engine rebuilding facility about 100miles from me, and he is who I'd have build the motor and perform initial tuning on his dyno. We have a couple chassis dynos here in Fargo, and I have miles upon miles of open highway that I could do datalogging on, no long up hill stretches though.. all just flat as a pancake..

If I am reading their website correctly (which reads like goverment issued stereo instructions) I need
MegaSquirt V3.57 complete system
DIYTune assembled kit with ms3x expansion on a v3.57main board ($645)
And configure it to work with EDIS
The EDIS system is made up of: (all purchased separately, they list ford models to get this from)
EDIS module,
crank wheel,
crank variable reluctor sensor (VRS), and
one or more coil pack(s).

Plus other sensors and wiring. Also if I am reading it right, I can use this same system
Should get pretty much everything I am looking for excep coil on plug. Which is fine. I can live with that.

If I am reading this correctly, I should be able to do a lot of this in stages or as I get time, using the above MS system, I could start with ignition.

Following the step by step on how an EDIS system was installed.
thesameguy -- Ford EDIS
thesameguy":1wym65v3 said:
Total cost:

Megajolt Controller, with pre-installed hard rev limiter and MAP sensor and programming cable: $200.00
EDIS-6 coil pack (Airtex part: 5C1123): $52
Bracket for coil pack (friend of a friend): $20
EDIS-6 module (Airtex part: 6H1107): $15 (@junkyard, $150+ new)
3x Spark Plug Wires (Denso part: 6716089): $45
Trigger wheel (Miller's Mule custom part): $120
VR Pickup (Standard Motor Products PC51): $25
Temp Sensor (Airtex part: 5S1018): $1 (@junkyard, $8 new)
Misc wiring (VR sensor, coil pack, EDIS module, temp sensor): $10 (junkyard, around $50 new as pigtails)

$488
There's also some good information from Xflow_Fairlane over in the Turbo section..Looks like he was recommending using a MS for ignition timing with a turbo setup..
Turbo for 200/250 ?
XFlow_Fairlane":1wym65v3 said:
4. Megasquirt with a MAP sensor, coolant temp, air temp, and one of my TFI distributors (I did a write up about 6 years ago on this) and maybe a TPS sensor. This will let you dial in a start retard, run a high idle solenoid, boost retard,fan control, fuel pump control, rev limiter and be a stepping stone for a full EFI setup.
And later add EFI or MPFI and eventually a turbo. Yes I know it will be lots of tuning sessions, but I have to start somewhere....
 
You are right, I do favor MS for several reasons. First of all, I've been working with it for a long time, so I am familiar with it.

Another system I recommend is SDS EFI out of Calgary Alberta. They have been in the business a long time. They produce a quality product. It is simple, works extremely well, and product support is second to none. It is not as versatile as some and has a minimum of bells and whistles but in the end, it just plain works.

MS has also evolved a lot since it was first introduced. It is now a very powerful, versatile, yet affordable system. My main reason for favoring is because it was, and still is, to some degree, open source. This means I can modify the firmware to do what ever I want, well, subject to my abilities that is. I use a modified version of the MS Extra code, only because it is written in Motorola Assembler. I have become reasonably comfortable with that. The later versions are written in "C" or a combination of "C" and assembler. I don't speak "C", so that prevents me from using the later versions. The later versions are definite improvements in that they offer more of everything for everyone. MS3 is the latest and greatest and it's hard for me to imagine how anyone except an F1 team, or similar would need more.

I also have to agree with you about the Megamanual. It can be intimidating. Because MS has grown so much I think that the manual, in an attempt to be all informative, has become quite cumbersome. That can be a turn off, but the information you want, or even more than you may want is all there. They don't dumb it down.

You might want to give Matt Cramer at DIY Autotune a call. They are an MS dealer and can supply almost anything you'll need. Matt is a regular contributor to the MS forums and I've corresponded with him from time to time on technical things. Explain to him what you want to do and I'm pretty sure he'll be able to give you some honest answers and recommendations.
 
My experience is installing a Holley projection TBI on a customer's truck and 3 MS1's with extra code (two were mine, one a friend's Vortec'ed Mustang).

I really like the v3.0 board with extra code. Won't get you SEFI, but they are super reliable. Friend's Mustang got a v3.57 board, but the surface mount components make them harder to modify for dual table mode and Ford-specific inputs/outputs, and I believe, less reliable. I chose a v3.0 for 'Ol Blue because it goes *way* up into the NV mountains on occasion, far from access by any tow truck.

My first experiment with MS1 was my turboed four Mustang with dual table enabled for use with E85/gasoline. It ran 63pph high impedance injectors and managed 27mpg consistently (on gas). Haven't ran EDIS, but I believe E4ODnut and others have experience setting them up.

Soldering the boards together is not such a bad deal. I did the stim board first, then the v3.0 using the instructions on the main site (not the msns-e site). It's idiot-proof and takes a couple of weeks working in spare time.

If you do use MS, you can glean a wealth of info from this and other forums. There are a bunch of gotchas with any system out there, but many of us have been there and done that so you don't have to.

There is no better bang for the buck than MS1. You can be up and running for less than $300-$400.
 
Look into the AEM EMS. It's what I have in 2 of my rigs and one will be running my '66 bronco six when it's done.
 
Pro-M racing has a new EFI controller based on the new "Spanish oak" EEC processors. There was a write up in the muscle mustangs & fast fords mag so I looked it up online. I sent their tech team some questions. Yes it will run 6 cylinder engines with an extra charge for the wiring harness, trans control will be added later and will be downloadable as an update.

From www.promracing.com:

The fully programmable Pro-M EFI processor comes with tuning software and USB cable for tuning through the OBD II connection. The new Pro-M EFI processor will be shipped with the “tune” pre-installed. This tune will run virtually any engine right out of the box. It will also include a software package that will allow the user to make any modification to the engine you could ever want, and do so with amazing simplicity. The Pro-M EFI calibration software is simple and intuitive. You need not be a professional tuner to use this tuning software. The Pro-M EFI system can be as simplistic, or as sophisticated as the user wants it to be. Tune if you want to, or leave it alone if you don't. Everything you could ever want in a management system is right here!

Features of the new Pro-M EFI processor include:




Water and shock proof for mounting under hood or inside the vehicle.

Free software updates for life - That means you get all of the upgrades and new features free, it is just a simple download.

OBD II compatible. Codes read and cleared and sensor data read using a generic OBD II scan tool. The new Pro-M EFI processor uses the same code strategy and the same codes, that all of the OEM's use!

Fully laptop programmable. Your laptop also acts as a powerful scan tool. See data in real time. There is more information available to the user than you ever imagined possible. Much more than with any conventional scan tool, or any of the hand held programmers offered by the other guys.

Full control over both Air/Fuel ratio and timing. The latest fad are these "fuel only" EFI systems. They have no control over spark, so they are only doing half of the job. Pro-M EFI does it all!

Tuning software so easy and intuitive, most anyone can be a tuner. Fuel table based on "load" and "lambda". Spark table based on "load". If you are a tuner, you understand how easy this is. If you're not, you will soon understand how easy this is! You no longer have to spend day after day adjusting a VE table. No more guessing as to which values will give the results you want. The tune is already in there. Want to change it? Enter a number and the Pro-M EFI processor just does it. Simple as that!

Simple “One Click” tuning! You don't even have to watch the screen on your laptop! Want to tune on the fly? Let’s say you want to tune your Air / Fuel ratio on the road. Drag and drop the fuel table to the tuning box. One button will richen the mixture at whatever point you happen to be in the fuel table at any given time. Another one will lean the mixture. A third one will undo your change if you don't like the result. Just put your fingers on your keyboard and watch your wideband O2 sensors. Then just click your way to the optimum tune, and save your changes. This can be done with any table in the tune! It just doesn't get any easier.

Store an unlimited number of tunes. Write and re-write the processor as many times as you'd like. No towing your vehicle to the dyno. Tune on the fly, and see the results immediately. The software has a feature that copies the existing tune to another file, then runs the engine on that copy. Modify the copy anyway you'd like on the fly, and instantly see the results. This allows you to modify your tune, without actually modifying your tune! Like the results? Then save them as your new tune! Don't like the results? Just switch back to the original tune, and try again. Simple!!

Pro-M EFI makes tuning for forced induction super easy. In fact, since the tune is based on “Load”, no tuning will be required for forced induction in most cases. For those running high boost levels, you can adjust the tune slightly if needed. Even in those cases, tuning will likely not be needed. Again, the system can be as simplistic or as sophisticated as you want it to be. It's all here in one package!

Two ways to control timing retard for forced induction. Simply adjust the advance values in the spark table for load values that reflect boost. Sound complicated? It isn't! Or... Use the old method of ramping the timing back based on the amount of boost. The wiring harness has a connector for an optional 3 BAR MAP sensor (available from Pro-M). Just enter the amount of advance you want to pull out for each pound of boost. The MAP sensor is not needed if you use the spark table method.

Nitrous controls to be added in the near future. Ramp the nitrous up while ramping timing down, all with simple parameters right in the new Pro-M EFI Processor. Again, it's all here in one place. No need to buy anything else.

Easy, user adjustable Two Stage Rev Limiter. Toss that old crude spark box in the trash. This is done the right way, and right in the Pro-M EFI processor.

“Decel” feature cuts fuel while decelerating. Saves fuel! Progressive ramp in and ramp out makes the transition in and out of “Decel Mode” seamless.

Individual cylinder tuning! Done the right way! The competition may offer individual cylinder tuning, but their method for doing so makes it a worthless feature. They simply offer global changes. This does not work! If you want to do it right and tune each cylinder individually, we offer the only system that actually works, and it's simple to use!

Electric cooling fan control built right in! The wiring is already in the harness, and the parameters are already in the processor, all set up and ready to go. The Pro-M EFI processor will automatically turn the fans on and off based on coolant temperature, and will turn them on when the air conditioning compressor runs.

Ignition module problems are a thing of the past! The ignition module is integrated into the Pro-M EFI processor. The Pro-M EFI processor uses four individual drivers to run the ignition coil. With that kind of redundancy, your days of dealing with ignition failures are over.

Advanced timing control that actually rivals the accuracy and consistency of “Coil On Plug” type ignition systems! Distributor type ignition systems are typically victims of distributor gear lash. Consider also the rapidly changing speed of the engine. When the cylinder comes up on compression, it slows down. When it fires, it speeds up. These changes are very rapid, which makes the distributor gear lash become a considerable factor. The Pro-M EFI processor averages the signals produced by the distributor. This allows the processor to deliver consistent timing advance to all the cylinders. Something we normally only see with “Coil On Plug” systems. This also allows us to offer a “Coil On Plug” ignition system for the older engines that were not originally equipped, which completely eliminates the need for a CD box in boosted applications. Read More . . .

Supports OEM “Coil Pack” and “Coil on Plug” ignition systems. If the engine you want to run was originally equipped with “Coil Pack” or “Coil On Plug” ignition, we can run those too!

Want to run twin turbos, or twin superchargers? Wouldn't life be so much easier if you could run two Mass Air Meters? Now you can! The Pro-M EFI processor simply adds the two air flow values. It doesn't get any easier than that! Optional Pro-M wiring harness required.

Compatible with Innovate MTX-L wide band O2 sensors. Wide band O2 Sensors operate over a much broader range of Air/Fuel ratio than conventional sensors, offering more precise control over a wider range of operating conditions.

Two programmable outputs. What is a programmable output? It's whatever you want it to be! For example... Connect one of them to a shift light. Just tell the computer to activate that output at whatever RPM you desire.

Scope feature built into the software! Use the Lab Scope to examine sensor data on the fly, or record the data and examine it later.

Self protecting processor! The Pro-M EFI processor detects short circuits and will shut down that ECM driver if a short is detected. Of course, it will also turn on the check engine light, and store a code to direct you to the problem.

Self diagnosing processor! The Pro-M EFI processor continuously checks itself for faults. No more guessing whether or not the processor is the source of trouble. These processors are extremely robust, and have already been through the most rigorous testing in the industry long before going on the shelf, so the chance of ever having trouble with one is slim to none. But when doing diagnostics, wouldn't it be nice to know whether or not the processor could be at fault? No testing needed. If there is trouble, it will let you know!

Production quality processor! The Pro-M EFI processor is made by the same manufacturer who makes the processors for Ford. This is something you simply will not find elsewhere. The competition uses low production modules that cannot compare to the quality of our modules, and do not go through the rigorous testing that the Pro-M EFI Processors do. Our processors have to meet the same quality standards that the OEM's do. They are built in the same plant, side by side with the OEM processors. NO ONE ELSE DOES THIS! Furthermore, the software and code is written by OEM contractors. This entire project was a collaboration between Pro-M Racing, and the finest people in the OEM world. Quite honestly, everyone involved in this project is absolutely the finest in their field. There simply is no comparison!

There is no need to buy anything else. No spark controllers, no Boost Timing Module (BTM), no nitrous controller. Everything you could ever want to do to an engine can be controlled with the Pro-M EFI processor!

The Pro-M factory installed tune is, or course, Mass Air based, but if you want to run Speed Density or Speed Throttle (Alpha N), we'd question that choice, but you can, and no one makes it easier.

We cannot stress this enough...The real beauty of the Pro-M EFI system is that it can be as simplistic, or as sophisticated as you want it to be. It works perfectly right out of the box, but if you want to tune, you'll have the most powerful tuning software ever offered anywhere by anyone, and OEM quality components that will last a lifetime.
 
Spent some time tuning an old Z car with an Electromotive TEC unit over the weekend. Direct coil ignition, easy programming. 300+ horsepower normally aspirated 3.0 which idles smoothly and is a pleasure to drive. Hard to argue with the results. Not sure what the system costs my friend, but he sold me his old one for $500 so wins all around.
 
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