How to add computer controlled timing

AbandonedBronco

Famous Member
Hi all,
I'm working on my '85 Bronco with a 300 I6. It has a Holley Sniper EFI system.
Currently it has an aftermarket DUI ignition from PerformanceDistributors.

However, I want to go with computer timing control using the Sniper system.

It seems the more research I do on this, all I get are "clues" but never anything directly definitive and it's getting very frustrating.
I asked on the Holley Facebook Sniper group as well as the forums on Holley.com and again, just more clues, or guiding suggestions. Never any real help.

ie. "You need to lock out the distributor and then set up the ECU to control the timing."

Yes, I understand that's what needs to be done, but how?
Also, which system would be the best to use?

I have 3 options that I know of.

DuraSpark II: First would be the DuraSpark II ignition system. I have the full working system in a box in the garage. I have also set it up and modified it already to work with the Sniper. However, not with timing control. It's still using mechanical and vacuum to advance. I'm open to the idea of integrating an MSD 6A module, or Holley's HyperSpark (which may or may not b easier to set up).

HEI DUI: I have the DUI setup already in running on the engine. Again, without timing control.

Ford TFI: Get a distributor from the 87 - 96 era. I like the idea of using a distributor that's already set up for ECU timing control. However, Holley said this would be difficult to set up (even though they didn't say why). But if it's a good option, I am all for it. The downside is I don't have it on hand so would need to acquire one.

What would be the best solution? Ideas? Thoughts?
 
https://www.holley.com/products/ignitio ... arts/88364

https://www.holley.com/products/ignitio ... arts/88363

I would probably fabricate one out of thin plate steel. Length will determine rotor phasing.

Most of the aftermarket EFI setups are GM-centric (reluctor distributors). Ford support is always an afterthought. Your DUI is a reluctor. Big plus.

Simplest way to do it is use the pickup in the distributor for signal, and let the Sniper drive the coil through a coil driver.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_sy ... ts/556-150

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9xRJKmaPwA

I would try to make a factory 4 pin HEI module work as an output from the Sniper. Much cheaper...
 
Very cool info, thank you.

I agree, most everything is for GM.
Plus, if it is for Ford, it's more than likely not going to include the 300...

I find it annoying for Holley to brag and tout their Plug-and-Play Sniper compatible ignition systems, but always fail to mention it only works with about 5 - 10 very specific engines.

Fortunately, I have the coil driver, so the lock out plates should be pretty easy.
And thank you for the video, I'll watch it.
 
That approach in the video really does look great. I'm going to give it a try.
I have the coil driver, so it looks like it's only about $60 in parts total. Not too bad.
Overall, it looked like a simple setup.

As mentioned in the video, I swapped out the advance lockout plate for this:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N7 ... UTF8&psc=1

It looks like it helps with fine tuning.

I'll report back on how it goes.
 
Wesman07":319pj424 said:
What is the issue with using TFI?

I can't find any solid info on how to do it or connect it to the Sniper system.
Holley tech said it's not a simple idea, and the one write up I found on it (which was missing important info) was a really complex experiment.
 
having not followed the various threads embedded in this thread, i may be asking a question that is out of line, but
have you considered EDIS6?
and its associated programmers specifically the mega jolt and will the system sync with sniper?

i have read where youare very computer literate, it seems a modest task to adapt teh 36-1 wheel to sniper.
 
Holley EFI systems like a hall-effect distributor, the GM HEI isn't hall effect, is the Ford TFI?
 
jamyers":3mjf8el2 said:
Holley EFI systems like a hall-effect distributor, the GM HEI isn't hall effect, is the Ford TFI?


Yes, the 1984-1997 TFi is Hall Effect , but with three additional lines of code to make the ignition self contained (The PIP and SPOUT commands which require a hand shake to operate).


Another early version of the Thin Film Ignition it is the the 1980 to 1984 non High Performance Duraspark III's ECA system.

5.0 CFi 1980-1984, Fox Body S cars from Sterling plant, the XR7/Tbirds for CA, the Panther frame LM cars EECIII ECM,
5.0 Variable Venturi 1980-1984 (maybee later), mostly in the Panther frame EECIII ECM ,
5.8 351M from 1980 to 1982, F trucks and E vans, ECA ECM
possibly some 6.6 liter 400 Fords in the last Screaming Baroque Lincoln's with the feedback 2-bbl, ECA ECM.

This was just a totally gutted large cap Duraspark II, with no Magnetic trigger, and no advance inside.

It has an external 90 degree sweep 4 point Hall Effect trigger at the front, which passes a little three wire sensor you can still get. Very early pre-production ones were indexed off the flexplate, but it was changed.

It was designed primarily to replace the bigger cube engine options, and get the Big truck and Lincoln Mercury and some Cop Standard Performance V8's through the CA and Hi Altitude Emissions without having to run an invasive Chrysler Corp Electronic Lean Burn system, or an extensive Assembly line diagnostic port wiring system like Chev and Buick Oldsmobile and Pontiac and Cadillac were doing. It was a heck of a lot smarter than many give credit for.

The Hall Effect was driven off the common 6.40" Balancer which all bigger 5.0's, 5.8's and some 6.6's had in the late Malaise Era to well the first term of the NeoCon era 1980-1984.

To duplicate it on an in line six, you can make an even 120 degree sweep three edge ring tone that fits between the balancer and the pulley, and run a Duraspark II with the advance unit locked off. Like those 80-84 Brown Box ECA equipped engines ran some quirky parts. The Holley Sniper just takes the square wave, and sparks the plugs 8 times per two crank revolutions if the same system is used.

This is just what the #C1963 ECA (Electronic Control Assembly) did, the systems are the same BASIC thing as the TFi, but it has no PIP or SPOUT, and was done four years earlier without the dual synchronized distributor Hall Effect system you find on the Sequential Injected trucks. The Ignition gurus who worked with the Motorola company copied the basic EECIII codes and algorithms over for the TFI.


See the whole details and pictures, as well as the Duraspark II Degutting and the Durasaprk II lock-off methods which can be used.

GM units trigger off the GM magnetic parts which the Duraspark 1 & II has, or the Crank Position Sensor the Duraspark III V8 systems use.


Don't miss the details on this, or you'll end up needing a lot of extra stuff.


See viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80244&p=623597#p623597,


#74 by xctasy » Thu Sep 19, 2019, and #78


xctasy":3mjf8el2 said:
The histrionics of this are in my opinion important, because a lot of people are trying to reinvent the wheel by throwing away the distributor.

I've done prox sensors for many years, and been messed over by them since my first experience with Toyota's Hiace van system in 1994.

Variable reluctor 2 wires loose signal at low rpm's, just like the VR signal for the 1969-1972 distrovac, or Ford Cruise control and the speed idle kicker for the early 5.0 Mark VI LSC.

Two wires can be spiked and ranged to split or pre-scale, but its always an RB.

RB= real beeyatch

My intense dislike of any thing Nissan or Toyota or early VR Ford is because the self generated induction voltage drops off at 6 mph on a Ford VR, and cuts back in at 30 mph. Same with Nissan and Toyota ABS circuit sensors, they trip out, and again, replacement wiring is different when you need a new part. Same with Fords two VR replacement parts...the wiring is wrong, and there are two types, an IDM DuraSpark I, and another for Duraspark II.


Ford realised this, and gave birth the the 100% reliable external mounted 3 wire Hall Effect sensor with DuraSpark III/EECIII, and the idle control DC stepper motor used on VV7200's.



For me, and Ford, a clean Square wave form the crank balancer is much better than trying to make a 4.0 Colgne or 2.3/2.5 Lima OHC Distributor sensor work. Those two systems will work, but to do that, you are saying No to Duraspark, and Yes to EDIS6, and you then have to create an Electronic Control Assembly (ECA). Which is what MegaJolt, MicroSquirt, or Megasquirt, or EECIV are a copy of, because the guy who programmed the Motorola chip copied over the ECA code protocols.

Back in 1980-1985, Ford did all that TFi stuff with ECA Crank Position Sensor C1963, 3 years ahead of its advent on the 2.3 Turbo EFi and YFA equipped Ford 2.3's.

In the early Ford literature, It explains how it allows the Duraspark and its variable reluctor system to operate as a TFi.

The Hall Effect sensor is external, early ones, for the first 3 months, IIRC, by the crank by the starter, but later ones by the CPS at the front passenger side.

For the big V8's in F trucks, plenty of guys ripped out the Feedback carb or the EFi units in Panthers, and they ran fine with the ECA or EECII and its brown box still hooked up, and even with a killer 4-bbl carb. It was the Carb, Thermactor, EGR, and Ignition control all in one.

Until it lost signal via a tripped fault code. But it was hands off, simple, and Ford got it working right since Job One.


302W_351W_351M_400_1981_EVTM_ECA_EEC_GG_2_1.jpg


302W_351W_351M_400_1981_EVTM_ECA_EEC_GG_3_1.jpg


302W_351W_351M_400_1981_EVTM_ECA_EEC_GG_4_1.jpg
 
xctasy":3qu6slsg said:
...
This was just a totally gutted large cap Duraspark II, with no Magnetic trigger, and no advance inside.
...
To duplicate it on an in line six, you can make an even 120 degree sweep three edge ring tone that fits between the balancer and the pulley, and run a Duraspark II with the advance unit locked off.


OK, so the TFI *distributors* weren't Hall Effect, but the TFI *system* used a Hall Effect signal generated from another source (crank trigger), right?
(rant mode: ON) geez, why wouldn't Ford just build a Hall Effect distributor? (rant mode: OFF)


Also, I'm assuming that Ford never made a Hall Effect Crank Trigger for the 300 EFI motors? (that would be just too simple, lol)
 
TFi is internally fitted with a Hall Effect sensor which produces a modified square wave, some versions can operate the Sequential Ignition off the signal. Early 1987 had dual sync, so both spark and fuel was triggered off one square wave. It produces a full signal from less than 450 rpm in the manual transmission cars. Spark index is just off the square, but the modified flat indexes cylinder one, and the sequential firing of the injectors. In the Ford kingdom, even EECV only needed a dual sync distributor to run both spark and EFi injector firing. Some bank fire or CFi 2bbls or CFi 1bbls didnt have dual synch signals from the TFi's intrnal Hall sensor. It only existed if it was a sequential injection engine. Bank fire or CFi, it wasnt needed.

Duraspark I and II had a internal self induced Variable Reluctor Magnetic pick up which doesnt produce a constant or steady square wave form electronics need. The exception is the Bosch and GM HEI which can trigger a GM Electonic Spark Control Module, which was used World Wide, and runs off a magnetic pickup.
 
Wait..."TFi is internally fitted with a Hall Effect sensor"
In the distributor? I thought you said it used a crank wheel - now I'm confused.

Back to the original question, what's the simplest way to get a square-wave (Hall Effect) signal for triggering an ignition system?
 
Thanks for all of the input everyone.
It seems that at this point, going with the TFI is just too complicated for my time frame. I know I could, but I don't have the time to figure out schematics, sensors, triggers, etc. and try to put all of the puzzle pieces together. Maybe if it was a project car, but for a daily driver that I use to get to work, I need something I can get done simply and reliably.
Very cool idea, but not practical at the moment.

Based on the video posted above by MechRich, using my HEI and setting it up for Sniper timing control is something I can have up and running relatively inexpensively with a few parts from Amazon (considering I already have the ignition and the coil driver) and can have working in a weekend.


sdiesel, the EDIS6 idea seems extremely cool! However, this looked like I would need to fashion some form of a trigger wheel to the crank, which is a bit out of scope on this project.


Still think this is a good topic to continue on for those interested, and it would be good info to know what's needed for the TFI setup.
 
jamyers":6wfcw382 said:
Wait..."TFi is internally fitted with a Hall Effect sensor"
In the distributor? I thought you said it used a crank wheel - now I'm confused.

Back to the original question, what's the simplest way to get a square-wave (Hall Effect) signal for triggering an ignition system?


Grab a TFi distributor, and an weld up the sixth index if its a sequentil distributor.

Like Danny Cabral's Administrator Holley site

the eight shutter blades/windows must all be the same width.
Ford TFI has one narrower blade for #1 cylinder identification, so some modification is required.

This is easily resolved by welding a small piece of sheet metal to the one narrower blade, making it the same width as the others.
Or simply trim (cut) the other seven blades to the same width. Ensure you trim (cut) the right side, so all windows are the same.

http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...10555rev17.pdf (Holley EFI Wiring Manual)
 
Ok. Help me out here, I’m getting hung up on this one...

The f150s in 1996 that came with a 300 had sequential fuel injection and computer controlled spark. No crank trigger. Why is this any different?
 
Wesman07":383kcnrs said:
Ok. Help me out here, I’m getting hung up on this one...

The f150s in 1996 that came with a 300 had sequential fuel injection and computer controlled spark. No crank trigger. Why is this any different?
Signature PIP. A pattern at cam speed with at least enough pulses for each cylinder plus one different enough to show where #1 cyl is, is all that is needed for sequential fuel and spark control.

The TFI distributor uses a hall effect sensor in the distributor to drive the TFI module which is normally attached to the side of the distributor. The TFI module then outputs a signal to the computer and the computer in turn sends a signal back to drive the coil. That's the basic operation of it.

If using a TFI distributor for computer controlled timing, I would personally bypass or remove the TFI completely and wire the hall effect directly to the computer being used. It looks like it only needs a switched 12v or 5v power, ground and signal out to the computer. It seems that the Sniper only accepts a symmetrical pulse signal input with no offset or missing teeth, so the TFI reluctor needs to be modified to provide this. The problem I see with modifying all of the teeth is how accurate it needs to be to not affect the ignition timing advance differences for each cylinder. If I did it, I would want to check timing on each cylinder with a light to verify after its running.

The problem everyone sees with pretty much every aftermarket EFI and trying to use a VR input is noise and signal strength. Hall sensors are basically uneffected by either.
 
It's the way Ford controls timing advance through the TFI module, and identifies #1 cylinder.

Ford TFI uses a rising edge trigger. The computer takes that signal (PIP) and modifies the rising edge to add advance as needed, and ships it back to the TFI module (SPOUT).

Looking at SPOUT on a scope looks like a square wave with a notch cut out of the upper left corner.

Everything below the notch has been added by the Ford PCM to add advance.

The TFI module fires on the rising edge. In the absence of SPOUT, it uses PIP. If SPOUT is connected, it uses the PCM-modified signal that is advanced.

Number 1 cylinder is identified by the narrow vane in the distributor, using the falling edge of the same signal. This is needed for cam position information for SEFI.

Although I've never worked with Holley EFI on Ford TFI, the problem is configuring the Holley to work with these signals.

This is not unique with Holley. In the 4 Megasquirts I've set up to work with TFI, all of them have to be modified for timing control.
 
Fortunately, as far as magnetic pickup distributors go, there are a good number of options that can be set, and configured, to clean out the noise.
 
xctasy":tg75escm said:
...
Grab a TFi distributor, and an weld up the sixth index if its a sequentil distributor.

There ya go. :beer:

I think this thread is an example of "info overload", or like my kids tell me: "Dad I don't want to know how clocks work, I just want to know what time it is"

Not that I don't appreciate the wealth of info... :D
 
I agree on both accounts. It's very cool info, but it's information overload without any clear direction.
It's what I addressed in my first post.

Everything I read is just clues on how to progress. More puzzle pieces that you have have to figure out how they go together.
Much appreciated, but it didn't really get me anywhere.

Kinda like Danny Cabral's post over on the Holley forums in reference to the TFI. "You don't need a crank trigger kit. They're nice, but not necessary for your application."

Okay.... so what do I need? When it comes to the TFI setup, I'm still at square 1. A little better educated square 1, but still square 1.
 
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