Electrical Drain: Revised 130amp Alt and twin batt soln

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Electrical Drain: Revised 130amp Alt and twin batt soln

Post #1 by xctasy » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:59 pm

Brain storming the planned dual alternator set up I have planned. I'm thining of using the US 250 style Granada L and C code drivers side alternator set up, with the US 200 T/L and B code A/C and alternator on the passenger side.


http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php? ... 09#p515209

xctasy wrote:Type 2: X-shell for US 250 up to 1970.5 to 1980. This is a Monarch 4.1, last year made. Typical of Fords engineering, they swapped air pump and a/c positions between the Fox body and X-cars. Early 4.1 and 250's generally followed the V8 York or Techumsehr air con pump position on drivers side, but from 1976, a Frigidaire Type A6 low mount passenger side air con unit was used.
ImageImage

L-code 250's (1968-1979) and C-code 4.1's (1980-1981) were interesting in that Ford did some major A/C and air pump changes in the X-shell and later full frame Torino bodies it sat in. You can mix and match bits, but both 3.3's and 4.1's need massaging to fit headers.

With the air pump gone, here is what the long low mount L-code Frigidaire Type A6 a/c pump is like
Image




Here's the total power drill....


I've got two light bars with four (4) 55 watt halogen bulbs. Before I had to come up with replacement cost on three defenct laptop computers with there defective battery packs, my Lion batteries would all you to data log without the old 300w inverter on, but now, I need some more volts since there is no backup battery for my more reliable Tower computer. The progession back to needing more power is becasue I don't want to have laptop battery problems, or tablet data management issues, and I need to combat in service computer and power supply problems by providing more reliable power in the field.


thesameguy has a two board computer power supply device that might help long term, but I still have pretty aggressive night and day time warning lighting requirments. I don't want High Intensity bulbs, as they amp up the viwing public, this is not a squad car, its a road survey vehicle which operates in traffic.

since I have a spare alternator and a need for a 5 th auxilary battery, I'm thinking I will run the light bar off a second alternator.


The buckets of instant sunshine are like this

Image
ImageImage

ImageImage

Used to drive them off the Mustang cigarette lighter. I think I need to set up a 5th Auxilary Battery in the engine bay (Drivers Side, as per EFI Fox 5.0's, 3.8's and 2.3's), via a second auxilary Alternator.

In addition, I have

1. A 240 volt, 350 watt Computer tower (no longer a lap top) driven from a 1000 Watt inverter from Battery 1 (Engine Bay Pasenger side, Stock Fox Mustang I6).
2. It drives one of three Canon Camereas via USB, for a cheap GoPrO Style right of way image logging system.
3. A Cannon IP100 Pixma printer, 240 volt charger
4. A Mustang Cigarette lighter powered 7" computer screen
5. A Mustang Cigarette lighter powered internet WIFI (4.5 volt USB )
6. A data logger that needs 13.5 volts off Auxilarry Battery 2 (Marine Battery Box in hatch area of trunk, passenger side rear)
7.Two Honeywell Proximity Sensors (4.5 volts each off Auxilarry Battery 2)
8. Two Bernstien Proximity Sensors (4.5 volts each off Auxilarry Battery 2)
9. A Precison oddometer which is driven off an Auxailry 12v Bttery 3 ( in the glove box), needs 11 volts to function at night , as it includes LCD screen backlighting)
10. A Jump Carry 950 toemergency startup Auxailry 12v battery 1 or 2, which is driven off the 240 volt 1000w inverter with the engine running to charge. (Stored in trunk)
11. Other nomal Mustang Fox power drains are:
Stereo,
interior, hatch and under hood Light group (four bulbs including map light),
Power windows,
QH headlamps which are often on full or dip (standard sealed beam, and to stay that way).

Additionally, because its an ex JDM car, there is an additional static Park function which puts on the front quarter Japaneses spec and Euro rear tail lamp indicator ambers,


Added all up, its a fair old drain on things....
Last edited by xctasy on Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Electrical Drain: Two alternator, Four battery Solution

Post #2 by Cool23 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:18 pm

I have seen many a Tow vehicle and Emergency response vehicle here run a second alternator for the second battery that runs radios and lights etc.
Also good for a fridge for the cold drinks etc. Other option may be easier would be a dual battery set up.

You are asking a lot more than say the average dual battery set up for off road or the usual Emergency vehicle. Some of the set ups I have seen are dual voltage 24 volt for the vehicle and then 12 volt for the lights radios etc.
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Re: Electrical Drain: Two alternator, Four battery Solution

Post #3 by thesameguy » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:14 pm

Why not just a big alternator off a modern car? You can grab a 130a unit off any recent Ford car that will bolt up. There are specialty vendors that can provide Ford Xg alternators running up to 205a, IIRC. Nothing you've described seems like a huge amperage drain... well, it's big, but nothing a 205a alternator couldn't handle. Nothing more than my motorhome home runs happily off its 125a alt. Stacking up old alternators seems like a recipe for inefficiency between old tech and belt drives - what you may save in short-term parts costs you're going to pay for with long term fuel costs.

I would run everything through an ammeter individually or check specs and tally up the worst case scenario, but I think a single off the shelf alternator is going to cover you just fine. Off the top of my head, I think you're only talking 60a-80a or so.

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Re: Electrical Drain: Two alternator, Four battery Solution

Post #4 by xctasy » Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:25 am

tsg

I've seen the modern stuff, a 205 Amp Alt sounds great, but I don't want one since the belt drive will be only an upgraded V belt to Serpentine system. I'm keen to use the existing belt mounting hardware, and I cant see how a 5 rib belt will cater for one 205 amp alt, but I'm darn sure I can load up two 5 ribs with two 1982 258 Jeep style adjusters.


I'm looking at a Jack Fish style Passenger side primary 3G Taurus alternator which is 130 Amps, and a 250 Granada style Drivers side alternator in Diesel Toyota 130 amp form, both driven off a modern serpentine belt. I'm looking at a Rick Wrench style water pump pulley

I'm looking at low mount passenger side Mike 1157/1985-1992 XF Falcon style Sanden/Ogura A/C, and a 250 Granada style Air pump mount (passenger side), and a Serpentine EF twin element harmonic Balancer.


The two systems have to stay separate because we don't have proper SUV duty replacement alternators around like you do in the US. I can get a 96 Taurus or 92 Toyota alternator anywhere, they are Top of the Populars. One rule I have, you must be able to get it anywhere. We didn't exactly love the Taurus down here, but they sold enough of them for me to be able to get one at the drop of a hat. Like 96 to 2004 Explorer's, Toyota Diesels, even the oddball 1.7 liter Corollas, had a common 2 liter Turbo Diesel based diesel block found on every little commercial van

The Diesel Tojo alternator has a vacuum pump too, helpful for VH44 boosted braking application I'm working on.

(I'll email you Simon/Cool 23, but I'm still deciding on an 8" axle housing to suit your Aus-E-Brake Handbrake Kit Image)


So a 58 series battery on the Drivers side running off the 130 Amp Toyota, a 56 series supplying the normal Fox electrics, an Auxilary Marine Deep cycle at the back, that glove box 12 volt item.


I think this is the best service/supply compromise. I'd go to 24volt, but I don't want to update or spoil the electric side by a full replacement. Safely Appending is just fine for me.


Now, going back to the loose ends of the post "Running a desktop or tower computer in your car"

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=72594


This is relevent to the twin alternator set up.

How does that Two table DC TO DC USBs Southwind shelf back work again? In your own words.

If I used three could I make an ATX DC-DC style PSU to give the target voltages?


I've looked at the Zotac Zbox system, I don't get it. Your DCDCUSBs though, it take care of fielding out multiple voltages for a desktop system if I worked it a little.


If I have to go ATX DC-DC PSU, I'll do it, but I have 5 volt supply from sensors, a 7 volt heat sink supply from my 12 volt, and of course, a and 12 volt power supply. My prox sensors run a variable voltage out put, I recon I could make 3.3, and 5 volts outputs no trouble.


I've seen your EDIS, I use SAAB TRX tires and love Sonnets, and I like the way you work through things.
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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Electrical Drain: Two alternator, Four battery Solution

Post #5 by thesameguy » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:55 am

I don't know if it helps, but I know some car out there has a 160a or 180a alternator stock. I thought it was a Jaguar, but maybe a Mercedes? Some boaty luxury car. A single 5-rib belt should drive something like that no problem. It's not like you'd be routinely pulling full load anyhow. Your call of course, I just feel like anything from the early '80s is going to be giving a lot up in efficiency and probably reliability.

As for the PSUs, why would you want the complexity of running 3 DC-DC converters each at a single voltage instead of a single ATX-ready DC-DC converter outputting all three simultaneously in one package?

The point of a Zbox or similar device is primarily efficiency. The CPU in your tower computer is a 150w processor, which is HUGE by modern standards. A really, really fast CPU might be a 125w, an average processor is going to be 65w. A really efficient (but admittedly slow) CPU might be 10w. You're buying a lot of electricity for a slow CPU. Your 350w PSU sucks more power than three of those Zbox machines combined. Additionally, if you shop right you win a machine that has an integrated DC-DC switching power supply and only needs one DC input voltage, probably 19v but maybe 14v. Saving 260w and needing only one DC input voltage? Why would you not? Failing anything else, you could always chuck an old laptop on a mount. Same result and you get an integrated screen. Virtually any laptop made in the last many years will be a 90w machine.

I really think with a 90w computer you could easily get away with one 130a alternator. A 90w computer uses no more power than a moderate car stereo. Even with all the other things you need to power, you should have plenty of headroom. A 90w computer also means you can run MUCH longer on batteries alone.

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Re: Electrical Drain: Two alternator, Four battery Solution

Post #6 by xctasy » Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:45 pm

well, just another tequilla Sunrise...glad I got home at all.


Image

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The MustFang is back on the ambillical chord, and the Auotomible Association jump started my cars sorry a$$ at 6.15 am thismorning, 16 miles away on my 2-1/2 mile shaker run test strip. The car died after two hours of realtime datalogging, amidst a critical 16360 point, 9.5" interval , 2-1/2 mile road roughness data survey.

I hate the electrics, my JumpCary just didn't have the juice to jumper the 5Marine Deep cycle and 56 series battery, it died at 4:21 am, and Iwaited an hour for the batteries to repose so Icould restart and get home. But nope, couldn't get above 11.9 volts on my jc950, so I dailed 0800 on my cell phone, and told the AA TO Come to the Mustang with the Lightbars and trailer, broken down outside the Airport.


Lokes like Ihave to find new batteries, lower wattage computer consumption, and a big ass 160 aMP ALTERNATOR.


I am listening to you.... :bang: :nono: :hmmm: :nod:
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FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Electrical Drain: Two alternator, Four battery Solution

Post #7 by Cool23 » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:54 pm

What do you need the A-E-B for ? Also looks like you need a separate electrical system so your start battery is kept intact and charged.
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Re: Electrical Drain: Two alternator, Four battery Solution

Post #8 by thesameguy » Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:10 pm

If running two alternators, I would probably build a separate electrical system. But I'm still pretty convinced that you don't need a second alt or a separate electrical system. :)

Five batteries seems like excess as well, but clearly not in the scope of the current setup. You may find your core issue is engine speed vs. amp output - old alternators don't make much amperage at low speed. For example, the 65a alternator that I had in my Falcon (from some '70s Ford), makes only 15a at idle. Barely enough to run the lights! The 130a 3g alternator from a Taurus makes 60a at idle. You may not have too much load in the ultimate sense, but rather too much low for the speeds your engine is running at. Make sense? This is a reason why old alternators suck. :)

Regardless of how the system ends up panning out, what I would do is install a battery isolator to isolate one battery from the rest. The reason your jump pack couldn't get you going again is that it was trying to recharge five batteries. You need a switch to disconnect four of them so that if you die on the road you can jump one battery, restart the car, and drive around long enough to get a charge on the others. There are some positively awesome automatic battery isolators that will manage the charge and discharge of battery banks (keeping one "engine battery" in good shape at all times) but you could also be just fine with a manual switch that you just flip if & when the car dies.

But, seriously, start by tallying up what you've got. A half hour with a digital multimeter one day will give you all the info you need, then you can start planning a real build. :thumbup:

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Re: Electrical Drain: Two alternator, Four battery Solution

Post #9 by xctasy » Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:36 pm

Excuse the spelling. To many meetings, too many hours on the Road Roughness strip, too little sleep, and now I'm off to REPCO and SuperCheap to buy the batteries I should have in November last year.

Today is a Buy another Four Batteries for Me and my Family day....

All because I didn't upgrade my alternator system to suit the load imposed on it.

Oh, and today, one of my four cats got bitten by a rouge mutt, and my daughter No1's 89 Corolla has a flat NS40ZL 12 volt battery, and I had to push start it to take daughter No 2 to school, and then she got sick and I had to bring here home agian at 12.30 pm , and my sons 92 Corona has a flat NS40ZL 12 volt battery too. But that's okay, he's using my 84 CFi Corona.

Not that I'm moaning or anything. :rolflmao: With advice like yours, how could I ever be glum!

I'm reproved for not thinking things out...I could have gone 130 Toyota and 5 rib serp belt in November...just was too penny pinching and silly to consider how the loads were going to hit the ailing stock batteries.

Thanks tsg. I was at 600 rpm idle like I always am. The heavy duty alternator doesn't make the recharge grade. I tried isolating, but the front battery in March 2010 M57MF Marine Deep cycle, so it won't recharge quickly to a high 13.8 volt level.

The November 2014 55D23LMF has been taking up the slack, and has been hammered


I'm off to source a new Jump Carry 950 TD35 38.5 A-H battery. Tempest Deep Cycle Absorbed Glass Mat. Mine is March 2011.

All my batteries are old, that's my problem 101.
Alternator is problem 102.

The old tech computer and load is problem 103.

Connection and lack of isolation, problem 104.

I'm now looking at things your way.

Cool23

AEB? http://www.howsafeisyourcar.com.au/aeb

Oh, :duh: silly me...Aus-E-Brake! Its kind of out of the discussion on this sub forum, but since I opened my big mouth, and you've always given the best advice with proven track record to back it up...

Aus-E-Braking isn't required as per the functions you have on your website.

Aston Martin used the Falcon HP26 6 speed automatic and used electronic brake application to make the auto behave like a manual transmission in the V12 DB9's. Your kit will firstly allow me to make a 4 speed Toploader engine braking emulator so my 4 stage AOD behaves like a wide ratio Toploader or 1976-1988 Porsche 930 3.0/3.3 wide ratio 4 speed manual gearbox on the circuit. One disk brake will equal engine braking from a manual transmission. An automatic has none, the torque converter is a diode which stops the normal manual transmission fuction.

The ratio step of an AOD is just the same of the last Toploader RUC / SROD and Pre G50 Getrag 5 speed Porsches. An 8" axle with that auxilary hand brake kit would do the job for my long term plans.

There is a secondary benefit. The skid sensor that I have been working on measures front to rear differential skid, a Detriot Locker 8" with 4.11 to 3.7 gears would do everything I want. I've already got the data logging, just some hardware.

I've always liked the "RockSolid" Howard Astill style XA Falcon 9" diff Aus-E-Brake type Handbrake I saw back in 1987. Great system. I have to update my axle, and if I use a Dick Johnston 7.5 Atlas, or a BTR/BW 78 or Ford C clip 7.5/8.8", I'll pay more, and miss out on the AEB option. A Dick Johnston Mustang style 9" or a 58" 8" axle form a X shell US intermediate Torino, Mustang runs 9" axles, and would work best dollar for dollar
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FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: Electrical Drain: Two alternator, Four battery Solution

Post #10 by Cool23 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:10 pm

xctasy wrote:
Cool23

AEB? http://www.howsafeisyourcar.com.au/aeb

Oh, :duh: silly me...Aus-E-Brake! Its kind of out of the discussion on this sub forum, but since I opened my big mouth, and you've always given the best advice with proven track record to back it up...

Aus-E-Braking isn't required as per the functions you have on your website.

Aston Martin used the Falcon HP26 6 speed automatic and used electronic brake application to make the auto behave like a manual transmission in the V12 DB9's. Your kit will firstly allow me to make a 4 speed Toploader engine braking emulator so my 4 stage AOD behaves like a wide ratio Toploader or 1976-1988 Porsche 930 3.0/3.3 wide ratio 4 speed manual gearbox on the circuit. One disk brake will equal engine braking from a manual transmission. An automatic has none, the torque converter is a diode which stops the normal manual transmission fuction.

The ratio step of an AOD is just the same of the last Toploader RUC / SROD and Pre G50 Getrag 5 speed Porsches. An 8" axle with that auxilary hand brake kit would do the job for my long term plans.

There is a secondary benefit. The skid sensor that I have been working on measures front to rear differential skid, a Detriot Locker 8" with 4.11 to 3.7 gears would do everything I want. I've already got the data logging, just some hardware.

I've always liked the "RockSolid" Howard Astill style XA Falcon 9" diff Aus-E-Brake type Handbrake I saw back in 1987. Great system. I have to update my axle, and if I use a Dick Johnston 7.5 Atlas, or a BTR/BW 78 or Ford C clip 7.5/8.8", I'll pay more, and miss out on the AEB option. A Dick Johnston Mustang style 9" or a 58" 8" axle form a X shell US intermediate Torino, Mustang runs 9" axles, and would work best dollar for dollar


You have lost me what you are trying to do. If you use it for something else than it is made for then you are on your own.
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Re: Electrical Drain: Two alternator, Four battery Solution

Post #11 by xctasy » Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:52 pm

Cool23 wrote:
xctasy wrote:
Cool23

AEB? http://www.howsafeisyourcar.com.au/aeb

Oh, :duh: silly me...Aus-E-Brake! Its kind of out of the discussion on this sub forum, but since I opened my big mouth, and you've always given the best advice with proven track record to back it up...

Aus-E-Braking isn't required as per the functions you have on your website.

Aston Martin used the Falcon HP26 6 speed automatic and used electronic brake application to make the auto behave like a manual transmission in the V12 DB9's. Your kit will firstly allow me to make a 4 speed Toploader engine braking emulator so my 4 stage AOD behaves like a wide ratio Toploader or 1976-1988 Porsche 930 3.0/3.3 wide ratio 4 speed manual gearbox on the circuit. One disk brake will equal engine braking from a manual transmission. An automatic has none, the torque converter is a diode which stops the normal manual transmission fuction.

The ratio step of an AOD is just the same of the last Toploader RUC / SROD and Pre G50 Getrag 5 speed Porsches. An 8" axle with that auxilary hand brake kit would do the job for my long term plans.

There is a secondary benefit. The skid sensor that I have been working on measures front to rear differential skid, a Detriot Locker 8" with 4.11 to 3.7 gears would do everything I want. I've already got the data logging, just some hardware.

I've always liked the "RockSolid" Howard Astill style XA Falcon 9" diff Aus-E-Brake type Handbrake I saw back in 1987. Great system. I have to update my axle, and if I use a Dick Johnston 7.5 Atlas, or a BTR/BW 78 or Ford C clip 7.5/8.8", I'll pay more, and miss out on the AEB option. A Dick Johnston Mustang style 9" or a 58" 8" axle form a X shell US intermediate Torino, Mustang runs 9" axles, and would work best dollar for dollar


You have lost me what you are trying to do. If you use it for something else than it is made for then you are on your own.


Yes, I'm used to "going it alone".


I'll breifly explain the engine braking concept, and the copied overall gearing. They are two separte things, but like two part Araldite, the hardner without the epoxy is useless.

Just note that I cant get what you offer anywhere else, and in any case, it will have to engieering approved, not by you or your suppliers, but by a transport engineer. I'm an enginering technician, so I have to have the changes oversean by a transport enginner, but the system is no different to the Ford Territory 4wd control, or ABS.

A 4-speed manual equiped engine gives engine braking, an Automatic doesn't give full engine braking. A small disk brake can copy the behaviour of a manual car in top being down-changed to 3rd, for example. You take the coastdown on a normal manual 4 speed (like a 1981 XD Falcon 3.3 4 speed with 2.54 axle), work out the loss and put it on the AEB, and apply the same engine braking coastdown speed. My 1981 AOD Mustang 3.3 with A 3.8:1 8" axle ratio would have the same overall gearing as the wide ratio 1981 Falcon 3.3.
You'd the add a sqwiff of AEB created engine braking on overrun. Very simple. Like pe-programmed engine braking on the Aston Martin.

The gearing issues are just mathmatical. When I was 17, a graduate engineer built a 375 hp 351C Falcon XY. He asked me to ell him the optimal gearing. I copied the wide ratio Phase IV gearing, and he went to a 3:1 9" with wide ratio Toploader.

The gearing calcs are pretty easy too, but not undestood well. Ford copied Porsches 3.0/3.3 Turbo overall gearing on there 3.3, 4.1, 4.9 and 5.0 engines

In the US Ford did 'Covertable Gearing" in 1980 and 1981 Fox bodies, with one years 4 speed manual gearbox having an SROD 3.08:1 in 1980, and then the next year a 2.47:1 axle ratio. To compensate for the 25% higer gearing, Ford redid all ratios 1 to 4, numerically lower from 25%, but with exactly the same gear spacing. So a


Background 1:-
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=68818
xctasy wrote:I thought Ranger, Aerostar were 3.73. I forgot they ran 7.5 inchers. Must be getting old and senile from almost 10 years on this board...

I'm in the situation that I'd rather keep the AOD, drop in the demon diff (high numerical) and gear it up just like the early 6.5:1 3.0 liter 930 Porsche Turbo Carrera 4 speed, where 1st is too low and fierce for tight conrners, and 2nd is too high and the engine drops out of the power band.

I'm running a special adaptor which allows port EFI on the log head and runs the F150 4.9 dual throttle body, a 5.0 4V intake, Shaker scoop on top, and with that and head mods, I'll get the 240 hp at 5250 rpm I'd like for early Porsche 930 (260 hp) or Porsche Carrera 2.7 or 3.0 RS style performance (210 to 230 hp, and 2370 to 1984 pounds, respectively)

I'll go through some reworked ratio spacings to demonstrate some stuff which is very important for your race car.

The early Euro Spec 4 speed 930 Turbo Carrera Porsche box had odd ratios, that 260 hp, and little frontal area and a clean shape, so it was geared for over 150mph, but the mph per 1000 rpm is here

26.6 mph per 1000 rpm, 153 mph at 5750 rpm
19.5 mph per 1000 rpm, 129 mph at 6700 rpm
13.3 mph per 1000 rpm, 88 mph at 6700 rpm
7.7 mph per 1000 rpm, 52 mph at 6700 rpm

In AOD or SROD terms, with 1:1 3rd, that's

0.73 top
1.00 3rd
1.46 2nd
2.54 1st
Equivelent diff with 225/50 16's would be 3.71:1 gears. That's sort of the SROD or AOD, where they are 0.67, 1;1, 1.47, 2.47, or 0.70, 1:1, 1.72, 3.07:1 gearing the SROD 302 had. The SROD for the 2.8 and 3.3 had 0.81, 1:1, 1.84,3.29 while the 2.3 had 1:1 usually, 1.43,2.15,4.08. So there's no option for removing the 1.4 ratio shift between high and intermediates.

But when you filter out the gearing on Stuttgart 4 speed to a 1:1 top, you get the standard Ford 3.3 and 4.1 CROSS FLOW gearing used in Fords Aussie Single Rail
1.00
1.37
2.00
3.48
Equivelent diff with 225/50 16's would be 2.71:1 gears. That's sort of the SROD without the OD. Ford actually used 2.77's on the later 121 and 131 hp 2-bbl cross flows, and then 3.45's and a 0.76 overdrive 5th when it got put on the 186 hp S pack, and then the 221 hp XR6.

This relates to you insofar that the Dagenham, with 180 hp or so and 3.73:1, you'd propably find the gearing okay because 2nd is lower, first is taller, and your if all okay with coping with the 2.46:1, 1.46:1, 1.00:1 ratio gaps, the Dag at 60 to 90 mph will be no different to the C4, sadly, as it has the same 1.41:1 or so top to lower ratio gap but it'll be tops in slower corners.

There is a cheap Laycock overdrive all the Zephyr Zodiac guys with the 109 hp 153 cubic inch 1958 to 1966 Mk 2 and Mk3 use. Your ratios without overdrive 1,00-1,41-2'21-3,16. Rev still 3.35.

All were four speeds from 1962, so there are plenty around, along with over drives.

With overdrive 0.77, 1·00, I.09,1.41,1.71,2·21, 3.16. Rev still 3·35. I can't see a problem with seven gears.

I can secure one from Galeforce Zephrys, they can be found and are robust enough.

See http://www.galeforcezephyrs.com/linked/ ... 0specs.pdf on the origin of the Dagenham, and http://www.galeforcezephyrs.com/ on the cult of Zephyr ownership which goes beyond Fanatic.

I was always a Vauxhall Velox and Cresta man myself, more cubes, 8.8" diff, 12 port head and bomb proof, laycock overdrive optional, you could wack a 4 speed with over drive and get seven speeds into it. Often you'd just find the parts at a municpal tip like I did

Image
Image
the first car to win the Armstrong 500 mile endurance races
http://holden.itgo.com/bathurstwinners.html

and they were just a sh!+ load stronger than the old Zephyr, but I've studied every inch of every British Ford and GM in line six cylinder part, and I can get you anything for the Dag you want, for a token price.

When 17 in 1987, I did my first diff swap on my PA, 3.9:1 3 speed to 3.45 4 -speed, and then did my first engine swap and engine build.
Image


Background 2:
http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... agic-Capri

[QUOTE=xctasy;1703253]It all make sense now.....


That ratio change from the 79 six cylinder standard falls into place with why the SROD was not a common 1981 fitment....Fords engieers made exactly the same ratios with the T4 as the earlier SROD when the axle was changed. Ford didn't have to recertify the engine with a T4 gearbox, because the overall gear ratios with a 2.47 7 .5 inch axle were the same as a 3.08 axle SROD I6! gearbox. THat would have saved a million bucks!

If the non overdrive top T4 Borg Warner was used with 2.47 axle gears, it most likely the wide ratio 4 cylinder first gear of 3.97, making an easy 10:1 first gear.

Makes great sense now. The RUG Tremec Code 5 gearbox must have been reserved for the 3.08 according to the Consumer Guides Ford 1903 to 1984 book, the actual published detail from pages 338, 339. I know the transmission to have been a wider spaced intermediate, and lower over drive top.


And yet, no T5 option for the 3.3, truely strange. Even with a set of 3.45 gears, the T5 put another 5 miles per gallon on the 2.3 4 speed.[/QUOTE]
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Re: Electrical Drain: Two alternator, Four battery Solution

Post #12 by xctasy » Fri Mar 06, 2015 7:55 pm

Sorry for digressing,

Any way, back to the two alternator, four battery solution..
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Re: Electrical Drain: Two alternator, Four battery Solution

Post #13 by xctasy » Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:46 am

thesameguy wrote:If running two alternators, I would probably build a separate electrical system. But I'm still pretty convinced that you don't need a second alt or a separate electrical system. :)

Five batteries seems like excess as well, but clearly not in the scope of the current setup. You may find your core issue is engine speed vs. amp output - old alternators don't make much amperage at low speed. For example, the 65a alternator that I had in my Falcon (from some '70s Ford), makes only 15a at idle. Barely enough to run the lights! The 130a 3g alternator from a Taurus makes 60a at idle. You may not have too much load in the ultimate sense, but rather too much low for the speeds your engine is running at. Make sense? This is a reason why old alternators suck. :)

Regardless of how the system ends up panning out, what I would do is install a battery isolator to isolate one battery from the rest. The reason your jump pack couldn't get you going again is that it was trying to recharge five batteries. You need a switch to disconnect four of them so that if you die on the road you can jump one battery, restart the car, and drive around long enough to get a charge on the others. There are some positively awesome automatic battery isolators that will manage the charge and discharge of battery banks (keeping one "engine battery" in good shape at all times) but you could also be just fine with a manual switch that you just flip if & when the car dies.

But, seriously, start by tallying up what you've got. A half hour with a digital multimeter one day will give you all the info you need, then you can start planning a real build. :thumbup:



Swap a car to a 130 amp alternator....


I don't have the option of a laptop, I've bought 3 of them over the last seven years, and they have been junked because of the inability of the slef parking discs to cope with the bumps in New Zealand roads. I am a road surveying Highway Technician, and even with a nice supple Fox, RAV4, Explorer or Nissan Skyline suspension system, I see a lot of bumps and my workplace IS the car. When I go home, I have my CarCode 50 meter cable and remove key board and 42 inch screen to link into to look close up at the pictures and finish my reports.




1. A 240 volt, 350 watt Computer tower (no longer a lap top) driven from a 1000 Watt inverter from Battery 1 (Engine Bay Pasenger side, Stock Nissan Stagea 130 Watt alternator, 12 volt battery).
2. I have data linkage to:- Four cameras requiring: 4 X 3 = 12 VOLTS permanant survey consumption
Rotoary Inverter supplying
3. Two 110 watt flashing orange Rotary Lights
4.One 55 watt Sealed Beam H4 Mustang/Corona Headlamp as backligting for diffuser
5.High/Low beams are H4 high/low bulbs 55/60W = 120w full beam
6. Yellow Fog are H3C 55w = 110w.

7.A Cannon IP100 Pixma printer, fed off one 240 volt charger
8. A Nissan Stagea powered 7" computer screen
9. A Nissan Stagea powered internet WIFI (4.5 volt USB )
10. My data logger is now the computer
11. A Precison oddometer which is driven off an Auxailry 12v Bttery 3 ( in the glove box), needs 11 volts to function at night , as it includes LCD screen backlighting)
12. A spare Auxailry 12v Marine Battery for emergency startup battery 1, which is driven off the 240 volt 1000w inverter with the engine running to charge. (Stored in rear footwell)
13. Other nomal power drains are:
Stereo (7 amps or 85 watts, on LOUD!!!..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_-q-KodhAI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NUAgX7wU68
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKX8ntjWeas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeU8V4y_eCs)

A/C unit
interior, tailgate and under hood Light group (four bulbs including map light),
Power windows,
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Re: Electrical Drain: Two alternator, Four battery Solution

Post #14 by thesameguy » Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:16 pm

I'm telling you, that computer is killing you. You have waste from the inverter and more waste from the ancient PSU - probably as much as 40%. 10 or 15a just vaporized in waste. The entire output of a 1G alternator at idle gone to perform no function. In my motorhome I have a micro ITX system that runs off an external 19v brick, so using simple boost DC-DC converter powers it with very little waste. However, I have it connected to a 23" monitor I can use as a TV or a backup camera... the "desktop" makes sense. In my old Suburban, an old Dell D620 ($25, ebay) with an SSD and the same boost DC-DC converter on a RAM mount worked great. Add a GPS dongle and a USB cell modem and it's done. Whole solution for about US$150 - laptop, dongle, cell, converter. I just don't know why you'd be using a hard drive in a computer for the car in the first place - SSDs are cheap and more or less immune to vibration. Plus much, much faster.

You could probably also dump that marine battery and just grab something like one of those Antigravity booster packs -

https://www.amazon.com/Antigravity-Batt ... B00I9HGMYO

You've got a lot of weight and complexity that could be easily solved with a slow move in a more optimized direction. Not to mention weight - you are paying to haul around 60-100lbs of stuff you really don't need. :(

I don't think I'd pay the money to do a GM CS conversion on a Ford, but a Ford 100-120a 3G alternator is more or less a bolt-in solution on an I6, and a single one would power your entire load - configured as I noted above - even at idle.

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Re: Electrical Drain: Two alternator, Four battery Solution

Post #15 by xctasy » Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:44 pm

thesameguy wrote:I'm telling you, that computer is killing you. You have waste from the inverter and more waste from the ancient PSU - probably as much as 40%. 10 or 15a just vaporized in waste. The entire output of a 1G alternator at idle gone to perform no function. In my motorhome I have a micro ITX system that runs off an external 19v brick, so using simple boost DC-DC converter powers it with very little waste. However, I have it connected to a 23" monitor I can use as a TV or a backup camera... the "desktop" makes sense. In my old Suburban, an old Dell D620 ($25, ebay) with an SSD and the same boost DC-DC converter on a RAM mount worked great. Add a GPS dongle and a USB cell modem and it's done. Whole solution for about US$150 - laptop, dongle, cell, converter. I just don't know why you'd be using a hard drive in a computer for the car in the first place - SSDs are cheap and more or less immune to vibration. Plus much, much faster.

You could probably also dump that marine battery and just grab something like one of those Antigravity booster packs -

https://www.amazon.com/Antigravity-Batt ... B00I9HGMYO

You've got a lot of weight and complexity that could be easily solved with a slow move in a more optimized direction. Not to mention weight - you are paying to haul around 60-100lbs of stuff you really don't need. :(

I don't think I'd pay the money to do a GM CS conversion on a Ford, but a Ford 100-120a 3G alternator is more or less a bolt-in solution on an I6, and a single one would power your entire load - configured as I noted above - even at idle.



But I've got so much information that I have to view with a just a 7" screen. I'd actually like a 17" screen just to check, and when I downgrade my PSU consumption, then I'll still need 240 volts for the screen.


thesameguy, I know it is killing me, but its a dollar thing...I'm just not up for another computer change that hems me into another purchase, or armloads of internet connection and warranty follow up. I've got externaldisc drives, but I need instant views of my data. I also have to have transcripts of my journey. I use a disctaphone and make voice to Excel transcripts on the fly, and I don't want it being avaliable on the cloud or internet. So that means I'm always going to need quite a lot more watts and amps and volts to do that job.


This isn't like that dude some time back who wanted a list of unrealistic requirments for a bolt on twin alternator to his 4.9 Bix Six, this is me, out in the field, pulling in data that I have to inspect, task, and then high tail it. Failure is not an option. I've kind got what I want right now, its just that its getting close to being a earthed house hold Trailer, and I don't want to be pumping a few amps through my heart and killing myself by accident.

I've been given a 5 hp gasoline inverter/genertor, I've got a trailer....its no different to operating an electric jack hammer. I just want an off the shelf PSU that hooks in.

I will get a lower power consumption PSU, but its gonna be a few months. Meantime, I gotta pay the rent.

When I do, I'll have some extra spare power to play with. It sure won't be a lap top or tablet.

My environment is like that of a ship, its full of bad RF any way. My OBD scan gear and need for ample power revolve around 100% data integrity, and any other system won't help.


I've looked at the PSU...I have no options here in NZ due to the 240 v supply. Spoke with JAYCAR and a shipping GPS company. The PSU I need to change.

Isn't there something I can do with the stock parts as a go-between without another computer?

I've got to feed the existing machine. I can turn it off, put it on standby, and then crank it up, just like I did when I was in Christchurch last year. In both the Toyota Corolla and Nissan Stage, as with the Stang, I've just slapped the auxilary battery on board, and high tailed it out.

After the issue with running the battery down on my Mustang at 4 am that one morning, I've just never got caught out when I had a home base to place some extra power in at some stage.


Recently, I almost came unstuck again, but that was just Toyota plug malaise, a typical issue in my 13 years of Tojo ownership.


I guess I'm just a power hog, I am the nite rider! I am a rocker, I am a roller, I am an out-of-controller, im a wheeler, dealer, im a wicked HI-VOLTAGE stealer....

Image

You guys have given me enough scruples to survive anywhere without a power chord.
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Re: Electrical Drain: Revised 130amp Alt and twin batt soln

Post #16 by thesameguy » Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:17 pm

Believe you me, I hear you about the keeping the costs under control, but I also believe in throwing good money after bad, penny smart pound foolish, whathaveyou. ;) . I guess I don't know your inventory, but you're talking about extra alternators and batteries and building out/hauling around a trailer. There's gotta be some money tied up in there that could be used to reach other goals.

The trick is to move away from the inverter and stay with DC only - DC-DC isn't perfect, but it's far more efficient than DC-AC-DC. Remember, all computers run on DC. The point of the switching power supply in a computer is to go from wall AC (which varies by country) to computer DC (which is the same EVERYWHERE in the world!). It's wasteful in and of itself. The fact that you've got a DC-AC inverter in front of it just compounds the issue. Get away from that AC-DC power supply and you've solved several issues. The *easiest* and probably cheapest way to do that is a laptop, since the whole shebang runs on an external AC-DC power supply you can just dump and go direct DC. Most laptops run on 14-19v (they're flexible!) and 3-5a. Sticking with a desktop means you need to power the computer and monitor separately, which means LOTS of DC-DC conversions at varying voltages. Very inefficient, complex, and expensive.

Old laptops are cheap. If shipping wouldn't kill you, I'd happily send you a pair of HP laptops I have on Craigslist nobody will buy. ;) I know NZ has some availability issues when it comes to tech, but I can't believe things are that dire there! You gotta have some sort of option for a 3-6 year old laptop in the $25-$50 range. it will need 70-90w to run, and can be powered from a DC-DC converter that doesn't cost all that much. A new or used SSD at $25-$75 and you're sorted, you can dump the inverters, the 7" display, the modem, the tower. That's not a small amount of gear/power - and fuel economy!

I don't recall the specifics, but I know you're running a very old AMD CPU, and that alone is going to hamstring you because it needs a few hundred watts to run. Unfortunately the modern, cheap DC-DC converters won't put out the amps you need to run that AMD rig without spending a pretty penny. Additionally, desktop computers expect a switching PSU, and the several different voltages one puts out - 3.3v, 5v, 12v, etc. A laptop needs *one* voltage input, and has it's own DC-DC converters inside to dole out different, discrete voltages. You can buy DC-DC converters that will handle this task for a desktop, but again one for your current AMD rig will be expensive if it exists at all... and you'd still need another DC-DC converter for a display.

If you can remind me what the guts are in your tower, maybe we can look at something else. IIRC an old (at this point) AMD E350 APU would probably give it a run for its money, and those can be had for a few bucks on ebay as well. These typically have an external power supply "brick," so only need one DCV input, like a laptop. In fact, usually the same PSU as a laptop.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ZOTAC-MAG-Atom- ... 1518773401

$35! And you just need a $40 DC-DC converter to run it. There are mountains of similar-spec super power efficient systems available, and since you're DC-DC it doesn't even matter where it's from. 120/240v isn't part of the equation.

But, *seriously* a laptop is the answer -

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Latitude-E ... SwPCVX3A8X

$25! Add an SSD, power it via the same $40 DC-DC converter. Done. There has to be stuff like this available in NZ. :) If not, I will box up all my old laptops, send them to you, and you can sell them for me!!! :D

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Re: Electrical Drain: Revised 130amp Alt and twin batt soln

Post #17 by xctasy » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:27 am

Okay, I just don't want my computer to go belly up. I like 19 volts to run a laptop, always have, but I don't like belly up. My three Toshiba (I bought one for my son in 2009, and used it as a stand in, and killed that also), my Acer, they hate power inversion, and the screen goes, then the heat issues, they hate heat, and just in a cold country like NZ, you get so much thermal stress, I just don't want something sufering.They are 19 volts. I'd like to go staight 12 volt. DC TO DC, Yeah.

Maybee I'll have sacrifical lap top, and keep the tower. I need to probe a 70000 line data base, and put in an mash 64 GB of video real quick to a master drive if I have to.

I have a trail of Slammed wreakage, and the modern market is easger to supply my every need.

So how about me steeling my wifes Samsung Galaxy TAB 8 to reduce the voltage requrments. How about Atrix docking with a 17" screen and keyboard. Swap the stupid waste of the PSU, and instead, get some visual data going on. At home, I have to pull the data out on a 42 " screen via an HDMI cable..Whats the least I can do with a brain dead TAB 8. I could slaughter a few of those in a season, cheaply.

Like this https://www.engadget.com/2011/01/09/mot ... ook-video/


I've been down this road before, about 9 times with field to computer transfer.

1. First, Machine code from my Sharp programmable calculator
2. Card reader HP
then two kinds of test equipment serial port to BRAIN DEAD 286 transfer (see below)

5. then, Psion Organiser.
6.then the HP48SX with Kermit infra red transfer
7.Then, Campbell Scientific 8 bit,
8.Then, Campbell Scientific 16 bit,
9. then my Andriod smart "Bump Map" phone app,
10. then just last year, Audino from my smart phone.

But none of it is as good as remote data from the field, slammed into a hard drive or SD card. I'm with you on a solid-state storage device,

I want something bomb proof, not something I have to sacrifice and incinerate like slickes of bread into a toster. But If I have to, I will.


I've been doing pipe delimited file down loading field data since 1988 with my my Troxler Density meter and M 7 RoadVista Portable, Raised-Pavement Marker Reflectometers. Every time a new computer comes along, time to throw away the old, and optimise a new handshake....
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Re: Electrical Drain: Revised 130amp Alt and twin batt soln

Post #18 by thesameguy » Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:32 am

Well, I'd start by staying away from Toshiba. Some of their stuff is great but some of it is really, really bad. Toshiba makes some of the worst computers in the world in my experience - very poor thermal design and often subject to overheats. They've been sued more than once. They're not all bad, but enough of them are I'd never chance it. I stick with Dell - not because Dell is a higher quality, but because they are ubiquitous. Spare parts are always available. Next choice would be HP - *never* their consumer line, the stuff you buy in stores, only the business grade stuff. One thing to be aware of is that a lot of laptops won't charge without their specific AC adapters, but you don't need to charge their battery - you just need to run the machine. And they will run just fine from a DC-DC converter.

You can build or buy a mobile PC for not much money - that's the solution I used in the motorhome - but I have room there to mount s 23" screen easily. In a car, an integrated 15" screen is usually enough. Something based on an Atom or E-series APU should be very cheap used, run on 40-60 watts, and probably the same speed or faster than what you've got now. The E350 in the motorhome works great for basic computing. For most stuff, the SSD is the magic for performance and that gets out of spinning data storage that might get upset by rough roads.

I don't know enough about the software you run to know whether an Android device is going work for you or not, but obviously they do have very low power requirements. If you can get it done with Android, it's not a bad way to go. I just don't like travelling when I might be hamstrung by a "media consumption device" and wish I had a "computer." ;)

Don't let past experience muddy future ones. Tech gets better all the time. I stayed away from laptops pretty much entirely until 2008 or 2010 because they were never up to my reliability and durability requirements. These days, the tech is very well sorted, as long as you're cautious about what you buy and you set your own expectations accordingly.

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Re: Electrical Drain: Revised 130amp Alt and twin batt soln

Post #19 by xctasy » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:01 pm

My solution was to use an auxhilary line from the engine bay battery, run it through the firewall grommet as before, and crimp up an Andersons SB50 block connector.

Although, I just about didn't get it hooked up

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... mping-tool
xctasy wrote:thanks to a little help from the Corporate North Americas, my Gremlins have been released.


Image


My power supply worked flawlessly all week...


Thanks guys....




Image

Image


I was then able to run a small 12v 55a-h battery behind the driver in a small marine casein the back,

buffered with my long suffering 1000w 240 v inverter, and run everything else.

1. My trusty 240 volt Tower computer behind the passenger seat with
2. its Logitech Web Cam/ Droid Cam,

3. external remote camera

4. and expansion drive hookups so I never lost any data

5. Large 240 volt supply 17" TV screen (So I could view stuff using Droid Cam)

6. Small 12v 7" mini screen

7. My cell phone on charge

8. My Tablet on charge

9. My hot spot internet device on charge

10 & 11 And run my two 55 watt Loopy lights (light bars)....able to have one loopy light swapped for my old Four Eyed Pride Spot lamp asbmly

Image



In addition, I was able to run

12. 12 volt Brantz meter with hookup to the ABS sensor,

and

13. a resultant wheel movement recorder with a linear encoder, and you get the amount of wheel movement in millimeters or inches or degrees, and operate it all,

even at 3am in the morning with my brakes lights on and my headlamps on full, idling on the side of the road....

Image

Image

Image

Image


Biggest issue is the massive wiring trace and Japanese alternator issues I dealt with in my little Toyota

/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=75731

xctasy wrote:
65fback wrote:t goes both ways. my wife was anti ford when I met her. She has relented.

The toyota she had was decent, but that was a 90s tercel.

All the new cars are a pain in the ass to fix.



Aint that the truth... although I've had a key stuck in my Mustang and marooned on the drive, and self inflicted the overspending of two 12 V 55 A-H batteries on three nights from 2011 to 2015, I've never had parasitic fusing issues like the Toyotas have. Oh yeah, I blew a 32 year old radiator hose three times, and three alloy top water necks and killed a radiator. But every time, dead easy to get going again. I love Fords simple, easy wiring. Toyotas, always the same 23 step road to Nirvana...after you;ve checked all that, its likely to be something else...

Oh yeah it was the three pin alternator plug, and Fuse 23 were the problem, although AM1 60 amp was my fault...I fused it when I jumpered my battery at night to reliven the Toyota on the way to my second job.

Here's what I did to fix it.

I removed the three pin per OBDII plug from the alternator, and dipped and shaked and stirred and agitated it in a CRC lid full of mineral terps to clear the white lithium disulphide someone had put on the pins. Then CRC 556'd the living crud out of it. No improvement straight away, Car still wouldn't start unless it was push started....and then... I SAW IT!

AM1 60 Amp fuse, blown!

Image


Image

Image

I grabbed my spare 1992 Corolla 1.8 Diesel AM1 80 Amp fuse, and slotted it in. Blew it right away. So I unhooked my auxilary battery, and placed the positive terminal on last. 14.47 volts charging....Systems go!

Image



A big Bailterspace Wammo! to ya, Mr Toyoda!

At Five We Drive....

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