A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

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A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #1 by OpelGT+3point3 » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:19 pm

I'm trying to put an A4LD behind my 70 200. I guess I need a 78-early 81 C3 bell. I've read that the C3 bell needs oil passages modified; but I can't find that info. I'm also unsure of which flexplate to use. I think the C3 used a three bolt converter but the A4LD is a four bolt. A problem might arise if the C3 used a converter mounted ring gear. I've searched many forums and have only found discontinued or membership links. Any help would be appreciated in resolving these issues. I've rebuilt manyA4LD's and a few C3's so I'm looking forward to utilizing the overdrive and lockup features of the A4LD. For now, I have several C4's and I'm currently assembling one with V8 components for my Opel GT; but I'd rather work with the A4LD since these come stock with 3.44's out back. Mike



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #2 by rocklord » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:24 am

Mike,

Welcome to the forum. I'm intrigued by your attempt to install a OD automatic to a highmount starter 200.

If you're looking for a C3 bellhousing, you might want to go over to the four-eyed pride website
http://vb.foureyedpride.com/index.php
This site deals with Mustangs and Fairmonts that came with the 3.3L inline six; you might be able to find a
bellhousing there.

Also look on http://www.car-part.com/ for the bellhousing.

Hope this helps.

Let us know if you are able to accomplish this. There is a lot of people on here who would like to be able to upgrade to an OD on their 200.


Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #3 by OpelGT+3point3 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:00 pm

I sent a request thru car-parts.com. Four eyed didn't return any results for C3. It's been mentioned in several places on this site, but links to details didn't have any info about how to hook it up or what was needed for this specific application. I put a parts request in the classifieds. C3 bell housing for 78-early 81 3.3 with flex plate. Although I'm pretty sure an old C4 flex plate will match the A4LD four stud converter (with no ring gear); I think the C3's were all three bolt converters. The C3 converter might work in the A4LD. Possibly the later C3 converter has four studs instead of three pads like the early C3 iirc, or the late flex could be redrilled.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #4 by xctasy » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:47 am

Car of Rick Wrench on this forum, Jose from Brazil makes an adaptor which allows SBF's to take the smaller 138 teeth 78-83 3.3 I6 and 74-2011 2.0/2.3/2.4/2.6/2.8/2.9/4.0 Colgne V6 flexplate. Great for Alfa Romeos withj V8's and Sumbeam Tigers or Alpines with 2.8 V6's

http://sunbeamalpine.org/forum/showthread.php?t=19309


The C3 was born in 1974 as a C4 and Borg Warner 35 replacement. Its French, and has been a brilliant piece of work, but it has had many revisions. Ford gained money by making its own gearboxes, and poored money into step wise development of this gearbox. Its inclusion into the US Fox body Fords was a payback for war rearations. The Cologne plant, the Japanese JATCO plant, and the Bordeux plant made engines and gearboxes for US Fords, with every 4 liter Explorer from 1990 to 2008 25% German (Engine) and 12% French ( transmission). The Fox 3.3 had about 25% of all of its 3.3 gearboxes sourced from France from 1978 to 1983. The 1977-1980 X body Fords (the 250 Granada, Monarch) had 50% of its 250 engines fited with a Ford Courier 1.8 liter automatic.


The Fox 3.3 C3 has a European 138 teeth flexplate the same as the V6 Cologne 2.6/2.8/2.9/4.0 engines... not the 132, 136, 143 or 148, 157, 160, or 164 teeth versions found on C4's...not related at all to any except for the 1971-1985 2.8 Liter C4 and C5, which had a non lockup clutch 138 teeth flexplate. Its a Cologne V6 flexpalte. The Pinto 2.0 used it for two years when Borg Warner's Scottish United Kingdom plant got taken over by Rootes and then Chrysler, and Ford decided agumnet supply with its own gearboxes for export US Pinto engines. Cortinas, Capris and Granadas with 2.0, 2.5,and 3 liter engines had US C4 gearboxes fitted with a special 135 or 138 teeth flexplate


The C3 bellhousing is the same as the A4LD, except the way the oil supply line is drilled. All this info has been supplied many many times by me in many, many posts, with links and data.

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=70598

Here at Ford Six, and Four Eyed Pride, and as LogEFI on the "Serious Explorations" ExplorerForum.

Its good to just block the oil feed and leave the solenoid without power feed if you are not using the lock up clutch.

https://www.explorerforum.com/forums/sh ... p?t=261892
http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/sho ... p?t=239416

You copy that, and your C3 bell fits the A4LD. The Pinto 2.0 and Lima 2.3 flexplates are 135 teeth and the same as the 138 used on the Explorer for many years. All 4.0 Mustang and Explorers run 138 teeth bflexplates, but they changed the pilot shaft and its PCD. The 2.8 and 2.9 one is that same except there is a spacer on some. There were 17, 22, 34 and 36 mm thick spacers with the Pinto 2.0 being a metricated 2.75" crank pilot spacing. The Cologne crank pilot varied a lot over the years from its 1962 showing in V4 form in the Mustang I and its death in 2011 in the 4.0 Mustang and Ranger.

See page 12 of this for details. The Fox cars ran a specific European Capri/Granada 2.3/2.8 converter and flexplate shared with the Pinto 2.8, Mustang II 2.8.


You can use the Pinto 135 teeth flexplate which was used behind front drive 3.0/3.2/3.4 SHO and 2.3 OHV HSC /2.5 OHV HSO engines...the Ford Aerostar used a version of it. The A4LD has a SBF Cranfield bellhousing which can be redrilled to suit the 3.3 small six, but it will shift the starter from high mount to low mount.

http://www.uk-hotrods.co.uk/v2/tech/c3-a4ld/page_1.php
The mechanical Speedo drive from C3 simple replaces the electronic speed sensor. If you find an early A4LD some had a mechanically locking torque converter. Later ones have an electronic one, however, this doesn't effect the normal running of the box if not connected. The C3 torque converter will fit the A4LD box if required. However, take care if using behind a 2.9 engine as the 2.9 drive plate is not compatible with the C3 torque converter as there is no hole for the drain plug. Although C3 (2.8) drive plates can be used with the A4LD. Kickdown on later boxes is electric, however, simply use the pedal and cable from the donor car. all the kickdown requires is a wire to the switch (which is built into the cable) to the solenoid and one to the battery, although, I prefer to connect this via a relay so that the switch activates the relay and doesn't take the load of the solenoid Avoid late boxes (91 - 92 onwards) as these became fully electronic and require serious wiring taking signal from the engine sensors and ECU. Always check and replace the front oils seal before fitting. leaks from here are common. A beefed-up version of the A4LD sits behind the 4.0 Cologne powered Explorer and Ranger. Later becoming a 5 speed and electronic.


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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #5 by OpelGT+3point3 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:29 pm

Well, I read thru all that plus everything from every link. Mostly what I've found online already; with nothing about how to actually drill any oil feed holes to make it work. Links to bulletins didn't apply to this adaptation. Advice to just not even have the converter lock up won't be heeded, since it's pretty easy to use an oil pressure switch to activate it; they come in many variations. Also, many attempts were made to adapt the A4LD converter to the C3 flex plate, but were stymied because they had different bolt patterns on the attaching points for the converter to the flex plate; plus the converter drain hole was in the wrong place. An easy fix, considering that the holes don't have to be accurate since the converter is centered by the crank. I would have thought somebody on this forum would have already done this swap, but that's okay, I'll figure it out myself once I locate a high mount C3 bell, and post pics and instructions; AFTER the test drive, lol.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #6 by bubba22349 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:00 pm

:hmmm: I will be watching your progress, have been seriously thinking about using a 5 speed version of that trans for a Falcon build for my wife hopefully i can get to it one of these days. Good luck


A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #7 by OpelGT+3point3 » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:08 am

Ford kinda cheated when they called that a five speed. It is, but all they did was use the computer to add overdrive to first gear. That made overdrive first into second and second became third. I dont want a computer controlled trans, its bad enough with the wiring needed for the lockup and overdrive. Keep your eyes open for that 78-81 C3 high mount bell and we'll get this show on the road.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #8 by rocklord » Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:52 pm

I have a 1998 Ranger XLT 4x4 with the 4.0L/5R44E combo. It runs pretty good (for the power it has).

I read on the internets a company (Dougs Transmissions) that rebuilds the A4LD allowing you to manually lock the torque converter in any gear, along with the OD planetary.


Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #9 by OpelGT+3point3 » Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:36 pm

Well I ordered a 3.3 bell for a 78-81 C3. We'll see if my parts place can actually get one. They don't know the cost yet, but they usually treat me pretty good. I'll post pics of it and the numbers; if and when I receive it.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #10 by OpelGT+3point3 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:33 pm

My usual guys let me down so I went out on my own again and located the 'ever elusive' C3 bell for a 79 200. I should receive it next wednesday and I'll begin mating it up to my 70 200.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #11 by bubba22349 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:37 pm

:beer: excellent can't wait to see how your combo works! :nod:


A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #12 by OpelGT+3point3 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:01 pm

Image



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #13 by rbohm » Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:41 pm

here is a link you might want to peruse at your leisure;

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/sho ... 6953&pp=20


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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #14 by OpelGT+3point3 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:57 pm

I read that before. I was shaking my head thru most of it. He was lucky it even worked. There were even a few 'upgrades' that were actually downgrades. I've been rebuilding them since before they were even A4LD's; back when they were C3's before the overdrive was added. I hate to see articles like that because it makes beginners focus on a lot of the wrong stuff, and spend a ton more money than needed and having machine work done that is completely unnecessary. Plus there are quite a few procedures that were skipped over that could easily cause problems. I don't know why people don't just buy the book.
I'm looking forward to fitting an A4LD up to my 200 and see which parts are needed and which won't work. The electrical connections are pretty simple. Two wires (besides the neutral safety switch); one for the lockup and one for the overdrive. Except the early A4LD's only had one wire, just for the converter. I could put a couple of switches in, but I'd rather have it all automatic. Use pressure switches.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #15 by OpelGT+3point3 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:33 pm

Recieved the C3 bell today. Casting number is 78DT7A834AA with two separate numbers in circles a 79 and an 80. One passageway looks different. The C3 is missing a wall that a 92 A4LD has. The pump bolts are smaller for the C3.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #16 by bubba22349 » Tue May 03, 2016 2:20 pm

:hmmm: how is it going on adapting the C3 bell? :nod:


A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #17 by OpelGT+3point3 » Thu May 05, 2016 11:55 pm

Let's see; I didn't find a C3 block plate, which I'm not even sure I need, the C3 converter has a ring gear and the A4LD doesn't, I don't think there's a flex plate that will work; might have to run a C3 non'lockup converter, I'm not sure that overdrive will work with stock C3 pump parts...C3 and A4LD pump plates are different, C3 and A4LD pump covers appear to be the same except for the bolt size; I believe you can run an A4LD pump on a C3 but not vice versa; the A4LD pump bolts are larger in diameter...I'm ready to try a 2.3 flex plate machined for the 200 crank, run the A4LD converter; unsure which starter..I can't find a C3 converter to borrow to compare the ring gear diameter to the 2.3 flex plate...So, I guess I can say that I am making progress...There are NO links out there that tell how to do this. They say just run C3 pump parts but I don't believe you would have lockup and probably not overdrive. Also no links address the ring gear dilemma.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #18 by CoupeBoy » Fri May 06, 2016 12:59 pm

I'd run a starter that matches the flexplate. My reasoning is that the nose cone depth is set when the starter bolts to the bellhousing and the nose cone determines the open angle on it, and the depth at which the drive engages.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #19 by OpelGT+3point3 » Fri May 06, 2016 4:08 pm

CoupeBoy wrote:I'd run a starter that matches the flexplate. My reasoning is that the nose cone depth is set when the starter bolts to the bellhousing and the nose cone determines the open angle on it, and the depth at which the drive engages.

Okay great. Just let me know those part numbers and I'll get this thing together..



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #20 by OpelGT+3point3 » Fri May 27, 2016 10:09 pm

I found a flex plate on ebay new with free shipping for $50 item number 121790548761 132 teeth. My 200 C4 converter has 132 teeth. And my 200 2-speed converter has 132 teeth also. The one on ebay has the ring gear on the flex plate; unlike the C4 and 2-speed. The ebay one has three holes for converter bolts whereas the A4LD needs four and the A4LD has studs on the converter instead of utilizing bolts as the C3. I have to dig out my motor plate and see if it matches this C3 bell before I order this flex. Also want to check with local suppliers first.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #21 by OpelGT+3point3 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 10:48 am

They accepted $44.35 offer free shipping. Received it yesterday, so Ill be comparing it to my C4 and two speed ring gears but I think they're all 132 teeth. See about redrillling the three bolt pattern to four.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #22 by OpelGT+3point3 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:54 pm

I compared the old 3-bolt starter plate to the 2-bolt C3 bell. Everything seems to match up except the extra starter bolt.
I redrilled the new flex plate for the A4LD lock up converter. It has extra weld around the base of each of the four studs that interferes with the ring gear flange. I ground off the extra but I think I'll still need 1/8" spacers because the outer diameter of the converter (at least the ones I have) slightly interfere with the ring gear flange. I could easily use a C3 converter for a perfect fit plus no drilling, but I want the lock up feature. Next up is pilot bearing and more research needed on the fluid channels of the C3 bell. There is one tiny difference but I'm not sure if it matters. I'll post some pics of the flex plate and fluid channel difference.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #23 by bubba22349 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:49 pm

:beer: looks like you have made a lot of progress on your A4LD to C3 bell adapting did you solve the starter and pilot bushing yet? Good luck :thumbup:


A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #24 by OpelGT+3point3 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:30 pm

Thanks bubba, I've been working on the head. After I cut off the log, I'm going to weld short 1" pipes onto the head; it's cast steel. I'm redirecting the ports lower so they come off the head straight sideways. 6 short hoses to connect to a tube intake with an old WCFB Carter. I'm going to cut off the third starter flange because it's overkill plus it interferes with my firewall. The pilot bushing adapter will be a rote chore, but the difference in the C3 and A4LD bell channels is a different story. It isn't much different, but I might have to weld in a small wall like 3/8" to get the lockup to work. Maybe epoxy it. I've been studying the differences between the 1 solenoid and 2 solenoid valve bodies trying to figure out which one I prefer. Probably use an Eclipse shifter with the knob mounted OD button.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #25 by bubba22349 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:43 pm

That sure sounds like it could be a great combo on your cut off head mods and I also like those old Cater WCFB's they worked very well. I once planed to cut off the log on my 1977 Maverick head it had a crack in the log so it wasn't useable stock, then planed build a flange plate so it could use the bolt on type intakes like the Ausie 2 V heads did plus also build a custom Tunnel Ram style intake too. When I moved though ended up having to leave all my collection of engines, parts and project cars behind in Ca. I am very glad to hear that your getting that intricacies of both transmissions figured out so that it well have all the features plus the lock up converter too. Maybe someday would like to do something semular if I happen on a good deal on a project car to build. Good luck :nod:


A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am still hunting for a project car to build but with my current low budget it's not looking so good. My Ex- Fleet of Sixes these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #26 by fast64ranchero » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:10 am

Maybe I can help, I put a A4LD behind my early EAO 2000cc pinto. First off don't worry to much about the Converter, I had one made that mated a C-4 front half with the A4LD back half from a later 4.0L Explorer, and used a C-4 flex plate. they used factory parts so the converter was like $300 and cured all the fitment issues, when they built the converter they made the "Pilot" center on the converter match my 2000cc crank and put in a 2 clutch lock up setup to boot.

Use Valve body from a late 80 mustang A4LD, it has manual operated overdrive, the later A4LD's have solenoid operated OD. use the shifter out of the same late 80's 4 banger mustang.

I can't help with the C-3 bell, sorry


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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #27 by OpelGT+3point3 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:12 pm

Thanks for the input. I'm nearly resigned to using the C3 converter without the lockup. That would solve all the bolt up issues to the flex plate and fitment to the crank hole. At that point, if I used the manual overdrive valve body, I wouldn't need any electrical to the trans whatsoever. I can't go $300 on a converter; I have too many projects, plus I want it to be a more affordable swap. Since this project takes a C3 bell, the converter is right there for the pickins.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #28 by xctasy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:25 am

Post #20 by OpelGT+3point3 » Sat May 28, 2016

OpelGT+3point3 wrote:I found a flex plate on ebay new with free shipping for $50 item number 121790548761 132 teeth. My 200 C4 converter has 132 teeth. And my 200 2-speed converter has 132 teeth also. The one on ebay has the ring gear on the flex plate; unlike the C4 and 2-speed. The ebay one has three holes for converter bolts whereas the A4LD needs four and the A4LD has studs on the converter instead of utilizing bolts as the C3. I have to dig out my motor plate and see if it matches this C3 bell before I order this flex. Also want to check with local suppliers first.



Just a note. I got an 85 Ford Sierra Station Wagon A4LD and hitched it to my 1966 Aussie 3.3 XR Falcon 500 engine and other 1972 XA Falcon 500 3.3 engine.

The post 1964.5 engines had a block adaptor, and they have a 160 teeth flywheel or flexplate engine, 2.75" pcd for that year, but 3" inch pcd for 1972. , the first year of the larger, wider block casting. (The Aussies used the Volvo BW 35 gearbox and its 160 teeth 289 flexplate, and manual cars went to a potential 9.25" clutch with the mid late 66 bellhousing upgrade)

Basically, I didn't realise that the US 200 used a 132 teeth flexplate for the 78-83 C3 Bordeux auto's. New to me...


I was absolutely certain (but didn't check) that they too used the 138 teeth Colgne bellhousing like my 1982 2.3 V6 Cortina and my 1998 XLT 4.0 SOHC Explorer. I didn't have the US 200 engine and C3 apart when I did my 66 AU/A4LD trial fit.

Ford 2.8 V6 Cologne Sierra Granada Scorpio Automatic Drive Gearbox Flexi Plate
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/18248698 ... rmvSB=true

Image


Your info was bang on. Stupid thing is I had a 81 Stang for almost five years, and never got the time to sepearted the C3 and flexplate to check.


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FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #29 by xctasy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:25 am

Post #20 by OpelGT+3point3 » Sat May 28, 2016

OpelGT+3point3 wrote:I found a flex plate on ebay new with free shipping for $50 item number 121790548761 132 teeth. My 200 C4 converter has 132 teeth. And my 200 2-speed converter has 132 teeth also. The one on ebay has the ring gear on the flex plate; unlike the C4 and 2-speed. The ebay one has three holes for converter bolts whereas the A4LD needs four and the A4LD has studs on the converter instead of utilizing bolts as the C3. I have to dig out my motor plate and see if it matches this C3 bell before I order this flex. Also want to check with local suppliers first.



Just a note. I got an 85 Ford Sierra Station Wagon A4LD and hitched it to my 1966 Aussie 3.3 XR Falcon 500 engine and other 1972 XA Falcon 500 3.3 engine.

The post 1964.5 engines had a block adaptor, and they have a 160 teeth flywheel or flexplate engine, 2.75" pcd for that year, but 3" inch pcd for 1972. , the first year of the larger, wider block casting. (The Aussies used the Volvo BW 35 gearbox and its 160 teeth 289 flexplate, and manual cars went to a potential 9.25" clutch with the mid late 66 bellhousing upgrade)

Basically, I didn't realise that the US 200 used a 132 teeth flexplate for the 78-83 C3 Bordeux auto's. New to me...


I was absolutely certain (but didn't check) that they too used the 138 teeth Colgne bellhousing like my 1982 2.3 V6 Cortina and my 1998 XLT 4.0 SOHC Explorer. I didn't have the US 200 engine and C3 apart when I did my 66 AU/A4LD trial fit.

Ford 2.8 V6 Cologne Sierra Granada Scorpio Automatic Drive Gearbox Flexi Plate
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/18248698 ... rmvSB=true

Image


Your info was bang on. Stupid thing is I had a 81 Stang for almost five years, and never got the time to sepearted the C3 and flexplate to check.


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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #30 by OpelGT+3point3 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:52 pm

I'm back on the A4LD 3.3 combo. I've spent considerable time searching for answers but have found few. I'm determined to use the lock up function. The early A4LD had no electronics for anything; not the od and not the cc; as I understand it. I think I'm going to have to grind off part of the flex plate where the outer edge of the converter meets it, but I don't think it will be weakened. Also had to grind off superflous weld at the outer edge of the converter studs. So anyway; I've drilled the C3 flex for the A4LD studs. Still might need 1/8" spacers between the two. My present confusion is in the bell housing channels for the lock up function. The A4LD differs from the C3 ever so slightly; I'm not sure the C3 will need modified. And I'd love to just throw it together and have it work. But if it doesn't; then what. More air testing needed. I'm looking at a Ford Durango with the 3.3 on CL but the owner doesn't know which trans it has. And he doesn't seem to understand the difference between a high mount and low mount starter. I'll ask for another pic. Do the C3 equipped cars have an "X" in the vin?



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #31 by xctasy » Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:28 am

OpelGT+3point3 wrote:...Do the C3 equipped cars have an "X" in the vin?


Only 1983 LTD's Fairmonts and Zephyrs with 3.3 engines that have the V transmission code on the B-pillar Lock Panel or Door Placard label door post. :wink:



Bottom right on Door Placard tells all. Some really strange stuff in 1980 came out with a C3 automatic....2.3 turbo carb engine options had them in some Mustangs and Capris, and in Fairmont and Zephyr 2.3 turbos.

All evidence I can see is that 1978 to 1983, V code C3 gearboxes were a Fox platform DSO devised mutally exlusive option. So if it was High Altitude or California, you could have the C4, C5, or C3, the emissions placard was the same. The DSO decided the two point choice on the B-pillar Lock Panel or Door Placard label.

xctasy wrote:You new ride prospect is esentially as basic "standard" V8 Cobra enchilada, with D code engine, G code 2.26 axle and W code trans....C4

All Cobra Turbo 2.3's are A code, T option engines, with F code 3.45 axle and V code trans...C3.

They have to have a T option on the buck code. The turbo and non turbo 2.3's are always A code for 1980, the kicker is the buck code "T" option.

Image

and this

Image


The carb turbo auto was also a Fairmont and Zephyr option for 1980, but unless the car is

A code engine,

T option buck code,
with F code 3.45 axle and V code trans...C3.

Then its not an auto turbo carb 1980.




Its a Buck Code, B-pillar Lock Panel or Door Placard label thing at the Canadian, US or Merkur plant, never on the VIN code. X's are the 1983 Model year code for the 3.3 in medium wheelbase Foxes, or a check digit.

The C3 is a European automatic, so the best info is from the German 2.3 Turbo community.


Image

Image

Image

anglin wrote:The transmission is the "TR" in the last spot on the bottom row. From memory, the "5" indicates manual transmisson and "0" would indicate automatic transmission


Fox platform cars and captive import 84-89 on Mekurs and 83 onwards Rangers are very difficult, because the trans code was on the door, and it varied between 1978 to 1993. And doors get hit, and repainted, swapped, and replaced.

Generally
W=C4
V=Bordueux C3
C=C5 (1982 onwards)
Howver, it varied depending on year, and it was the door code that governed the transmission, not the VIN code.

4-sp Tremec (code 5 in 1979 only, Tremec T170 SROD 4speed)
5-sp Tremec 140VS/140FS/142FS ( code 5 trans in 1980-82 )
5-sp BW T-5 (Code 5 in 1983 onwards, option for 1983 4V GT 5.0, and then 2.3 Turbo EFI's starting that year)
4-sp BW T-4 (Code 6 in 1981 only. An updated non 5 spd BW SR4 SROD from 1981 on, used by AMC and on 6 cylinder Capri and Mustang 3.3's for one year)
4-sp Hummer (code 7)
automatic C3 (code V)
automatic C4 (code W)
automatic C5 (code C)
automatic AOD ( code T )

automatic JATCO (Code S, Monarch/Granada 76-80 only, non Fox, they were a Falcon Mavrick platform)
there was a 5-speed manual overdrive standard behind the 2.3T in '81 and '82, and it was also optional behind the N/A 2.3L those years. That transmission was code 5. After looking through door tags, apparently it was also available in late '80.

example from the amazing FoxChassis.

http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... ra-Turbo-4

FoxChassis wrote:Image


If the car has been modified, you then look at the axle tags.

Conventional (non-locking) in some Foxes
G- 2.26,
B-2.47.
8-2.73,
Y-3.08,
5-3.27,
F-3.45,
6-3.73.

From 1981 onwards, locking limited slip differential "Traction Lok" in some Foxes

M-2.73,
Z-3.08,
E-3.27,
R-3.45,
W-3.73.


Short wheelbase Foxes from 1980 to 1983 never got AOD's, it was a Lincoln Mercury XR7/ Tbird thing.

Everywhere and with everything else, the 3.8 got the AOD as an option.

And to answer your question....

The VIN code used the same revolving table engine number change.

The 3.3 codes changed from T to B to X in three rachets,

63-79 = T code
80-82 = B code
83 = X code

The W code Merkur and whatever code Cologne 2.8/2.9 V6 engines and the Vulcan3.0, Cologne 4.0 OHV/SOHC. All that Borduex stuff is via the B pillar plate breakout.

The last one, as you'll no doubt know, is the Ford Trans code tag, a really cool third check if the
door code,
buck code,
axle code
and VIN code don't getcha whatcha want.

By mutal exclusion if its a Fox platoform car, and the trans isn't

Ford Type 4 German ET Hummer/Rocket based RUG with a door code suffix
Ford Tremec T140 RAP_AA_DA24_E0ZR_AA_ 1100 or RAP_AG_LB27_E1ZR_NA_ 0658
Ford SR4 Case 13 32 or 13 40 RAD (A Jeep and Fox transmission)
Borg Warner T4 Case 13 51 RAD (1981 to 1982)
Borg Warner T5 Case 13 52 (1983 onwards)
Ford SROD Iron case, or alloy case 6 cyl or V8, I6's, RUG-DE EA, V8s have an RUG-xx-EM identifier (downgraded RUG Toploader )
Ford Type 9 Merkur XR4Ti Scorpio based (not used in Foxes)

then it will be C3, C4 or maybee C5 based on year. AOD's weren't used behind 3.3's, but were behind 3.8's.


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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #32 by OpelGT+3point3 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:29 pm

Ok then I'm looking for a "V" in the door transmission code.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #33 by OpelGT+3point3 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:04 pm

I found a 79 Fairmont but it has "WWWSS" for a trans code. It's about sixty miles away. I asked for a pic of the trans. I'd cut the trans tunnel out of it and use it for a test bed.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #34 by xctasy » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:35 am

OpelGT+3point3 wrote:I found a 79 Fairmont but it has "WWWSS" for a trans code. It's about sixty miles away. I asked for a pic of the trans. I'd cut the trans tunnel out of it and use it for a test bed.


It will MOST likely be a C3, perhaps you or the sellert might be reading Double You's as Double Vees.

Recheck it, and confirm. The W and VV issue is a huge issue with people claiming they have 2-bbl VV 3.3 Foxes.

Only the Dutch got W right....they called it Double V. So if your from an Eastern state family....

viewtopic.php?t=47758
super4ord wrote:WOW!!! Did anyone notice on the ASC Mclaren literature that Xctasy posted, that the engine was a 3.3 inline six with a VV(variable venturi) 2 barrel carb!!! I guess there may have actually been some production 2 bbl heads, besides the experimental one that the guy in Kansas has. I'd like to investigate this further.

Darrell


The rather mistake ridden report that caused it is here. Based on quotes, there could be 12.5 hp and 7 lb-ft extra if anyone is silly enough not to crosscheck the 4speed SROD Mercury Capri 3.3 RS Hatch article on page 64 to 66 in Motor Trend March 1981.

Image

I'm sure it did a 19.08 second quarter mile at 71 mph and a 90 mph top speed.

I had my 1981 Hatch to 95 mph with ease. On that car with a 0.46 drag factor, 20.8 sq ft frontal area, and 190 section tires, that acceleration rate and terminal trap speed speed requires 87 hp at least to move a 2640 pound car with two testers and a full tank of gas, and only 67 hp to make 90 mph, and 78 to make 95 mph and just 90 flywheel hp to make 100 mph.

Feed in 3055 pounds and 87hp into the http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php program.

is 19.07 seconds and MPH of 70.86 MPH.


If we accept that the 97.5 hp at 4000 and 161 lb-ft 1400 rpm is Jim MacQueen's eye sight error while perhaps proof reading under a Helmick Covered Bridge ,

( along with the Holley VV 2-bbl carb -it was a Holley 1-bbl 1946C
and a Ford mistake, the 2.49 final drive ratio -it was a 3.08:1 axle with 0.81 overdrive 4th on the last SROD's before the T4 got subbed in later in 1981 with the 2.47 axle)

in this March 1981 Motor Trend article

http://www.ascmclarencoupe.com/Literatu ... 1981_2.jpg

I've always wondered what a Holley V V carb is...

Image


Then again, the 1-bbl vs 2-bbl 2V 3.3 error perpetuated...




http://www.sspcentral.com/special-servi ... olice-car/

Image



Image

See above from 04-06-2016, 03:02 PM #5


http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... yr-project?

2.3 4cyl engine door tag

Y= 3.08 axle 7.5"
V= C3 automatic
VVSS = place holder




Last five numbers the owner gave don't work for me.
Should be YVWSS or 8VWSS


W code for 1979 might have been different, since there was no Power Lok option till 1981.

W is C4, not C3.

Most door tags are like this, the last 6 numbers

Image

From a 1981 Mercury Capri Black Magic 3.3 liter six...


B 633MM

B= 2.47 non locking axle
6 = 4-sp BW T-4 (Code 6 in 1981 only)
33MM = place holder


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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #35 by OpelGT+3point3 » Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:39 am

There are two problems. The easy one is the converter relief passage needs to be opened up. The hard one is caused by the C3 triangular passage for the cooler. The A4LD splits this and uses half for the lockup. Ill weld a wall in the triangular section and level it off. The C3 direct clutch passage is identical to the A4LD overdrive. The A4LD mounts the direct drum on the center support and feeds it straight up from the valve body.
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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #36 by OpelGT+3point3 » Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:27 am

I figured out a way to accomplish almost the same thing without any aluminum welding. I should have pics tomorrow.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #37 by xctasy » Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:05 am

Nice work.


I did an adaptor swap, Canfield 2300 Lima style. Just like all Kiws and Aussies do when they do a foreign trans swap, we just make a block adaptor and whammon, there you go.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=66238&start=50

xctasy wrote:.....

The block adaptor is like this. It's basically the same as an AOD adaptor I patterned long ago, but it was done by Ford Australia, as a factory effort, in the 1965 XP as a transitional thing...so the little US 170/200 blocks could take the V8 style transmissions, and therefor cope with V8 style grunt. In my opinion, good C4 technology laggs behind on the small 200 because your putting a whole lot more force through a 132 teeth converter than Ford US ever intended. The US Ford 250's shifted to the SBF pattern because it allowed the gruntier bigger I6 to take a stronger transmission. The Australians used this as a transition using 1965 289 ring gear with the little 2.75" six bolt crank pattern of the 144/170/200.

Brett (gb500) posted the pictures


Image



Nothing lines up with my situation at all.

I had none of those issues. The early Sierra 2.0 stuff was just the C3.


In fact, the early C3 used the later A4LD's divided oil supply,

ref Mustang II 2300 #74 DT 7834 HD

Image

yet the 87-93 Mustang Fox 2300 #85 GT 7834 AD used the earlier triangle

Image




I guess its different, as so many Ford Sierra Station Wagons were sold as Telecom Rep mobiles....with a 0.34 drag factor, 103 hp and just 20.4 sq feet of frontal area, every T9 gearboxed 2 liter could do 125 mph and a 16.9 second 1/4 mile one up.

The corporations that bought them started ordering automatics to slow them down.

Image

Image

Image


Its a case of finding the right C3 and the right A4LD to match.




as well as the

1) cross member

2) EXTRA shift pointin the gearshift

3) the bigger trans oil cooler line

Since you are using the 1992 A4LD trans, you also have

4) PCM kickdown and

5) the 8 mm bolt and

6) divided cooling and

7) separate hydraulic line issues.

I had none of them, the 1984/85 Pinto 2000 A4LD was a straight bolt up to the 135 teeth/ C3 Pinto bellhousing, with one change.

I had a 2.3 Cologne V6 138 teeth/ C3 bellhousing. The shift solenoid, Ford Sierra shifter

Others have found exactly the same thing

http://www.geocities.ws/johnsautos/proj ... /a4ld1.htm
http://www.geocities.ws/johnsautos/proj ... /a4ld2.htm
http://www.geocities.ws/johnsautos/proj ... /a4ld3.htm

All the earlier 3 US types of the 8 types of A4LD skiped all the 1992 variations.


The exception was the 4LD19A, the 2.3 Liter #85 GT 7834 AB with the old small 6 mm studs.

Generally, the 6mm bolt versions are straight bolt ups. The Europeans went to 8 mm bolts early, not so for the US versions...in inventory lag, I guess.


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #38 by OpelGT+3point3 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:47 pm

I have the bell from a 3.3 C3, not the pump cover and the sheet metal separator plate; so I don't know if a C3 complete pump can be installed into an A4ld with no mods or not. If the C3 plate blocks off the lock up passage and the cover fits the A4LD overdrive drum then I don't see why it wouldn't work. If you have an early A4LD with a single solenoid; you'd be good to go; just no lockup. But if you have an 89-up A4LD, I think you'll need a wire to the overdrive solenoid. I'll see if I can find a C3 with pump cover and plate and check the A4LD compatibility. But for myself, I want the lockup.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #39 by xctasy » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:41 am

:thumbup: Those two mods will give you what you want.

The French phased in the variations in three steps, to allow a C5 type intermediate lock-up clutch, which therefore allowed a 100% C3 bellhousing.


As you'll know, the 138 teeth 4 liter Mustang S197/ 4.0 Explorer/4.0/2.9/2.8 Ranger /2.9/2.8 Aerostar/ 2.9/2.8 BroncoII/2.8 Mercury Capri/2.8 Mustang II/Pinto 2800/ Capri 2600 bell housing also takes the C3 torque converter, the early versions, the whole thing without modification.

Image

The three general versions of the A4LD all had lock-up clutch converters,

early ones centrifugal operated non electric, non hydraulic, aka the ill fated C5 t/c , which was designed to engage at a certain speed, so the clutch not only wore out but in failure due to wear, would fill the trans with debris. As a result, both the C5 and A4LD centrifugal clutch torque converters are no longer serviced.

Image


Later A4LD's like your 92, had the good electronically controlled by the trans or EEC cpu.

First A4LD's with a normal C3 Bordeux kickdown cable (just like this C3 transmission XR4Ti Merkur item from the 2.3 Lima Turbo EFi),

Image

Fordof Europes Cologne built, Karman assembled Mekur had to have the A4LD shift bezel deleated, and plenty forget the A4LD was only a Mekur Scorpio option, never used on the US Mekur XR4Ti,

Image


Second series with the electric kickdown
Image

Image

Then the all electronic box with the electric kickdown.

By 1994, the 'Frog' Eye Ford Scorpio's were all electronic with Snow and Sports modes.

Early A4LD was non electronic, but still lock-up, your 1992 is technically an A4LDE in Euro-speak.

ALD4 box (Ford Sierra/Saphire, then for some time, an option in the RWD Ford Transit Van), 1984-1994 Pinto 1.6/1.8/2.0 OHC
ALD4e box (note small e), 1988-1993 N series (N8A/N9A/N9C/N9E/NSE/N9D) Dagnem i4 8 Valve 2.0 DOHC
ALD4E (large E for more electronics eg later Scorpio 16v), 1994-1998 N series (N7A/NSD/N3A)Dagnem i4 16 Valve 2.0 DOHC, Y5A/Y5B 2.3 DOHC.
ALD4E (large E for more electronics eg later Scorpio 24v), 1994-1998 Cologne BRG OHV V6/ BOB Cosworth Quad OHC 24v V6.

There were Peugoet and Duratech Diesels that Ford used, they had them too.


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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #40 by OpelGT+3point3 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:53 pm

I haven't found any examples of a complete 3.3 C3 bell and pump with plate bolted up to an A4LD; and I've been looking for months. If anybody has actually done this and driven it; I'd really appreciate some feedback. There are tons of 2.3, 2.8, 2.9 examples of some type of combo, but no 3.3 that I have seen. I'll stay the course on modifying my flexplate to fit the A4LD converter; just some grinding, fitting a pilot bushing, then I'll bolt it together and check the clearance between the flexplate and the base of the converter studs. First, I'm taking my flywheel down to the trans parts place I buy converters and see if they have a slightly smaller diameter converter that will fit up to the flex without grinding.



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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #41 by xctasy » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:29 pm

Mike, you have it almost nailed, and your doing the Right Thing. :beer: :thumbup: :nod: :wow: :party: :banana:

:idea:

TransAdapt in the post below, use a 360 degree metal spacer to the flexplate to keep alignment with a 100% stock C5/AOD flexplate.


I'm sure you'll do the same.

I just used a 3" SBF crankflange, and cut it down, a marked it with the 2-3/4 center small six crank flange.

Image


I guess the problem here is only that you have standards and don't do the unashamedly mercenary (money-oriented, grasping, greedy, acquisitive, avaricious, covetous, rapacious, bribable, venal, materialistic; money-grubbing) approach by those South of the Eqautor....

It's a lot cheaper, but its always based on nɪˈsɛsɪti, well that's what I told my wife after 200 buxs of maching a multi fit 135/138/157/164 teeth Ford adaptor to my 160 teeth in line Aussie Ford sixes.

The way all Aussies and Kiwis did this was with just a flat piece of tooling plate alloy or some mild steel plate, and ...da da, out with the plasma cutter After cutting off a spare crank flange, throw it in a Mazark with a Landis fitting so you can taper it if you have to , and by some Caterpiller bolts, and you've created a new bellhousing the same as the trans.

Like my SBF to Aussie Falcon 200/250 six adaptor. It was always a 100% copy of the TransAdapt 429 Big block to AOD adaptor below, with a few little variations.



Image




Only issue with that is the starter motor to cast iron block clearance....this varies a lot between the 144/170 with the early small bell, and the dual pattern 200, the Aussie 200/250 log/2V and X-flow, but its REALLY easy to fix.

Normally, a smaller starter, but if that doesn't work, then swing the trans or even the engine.

When you got problems like this from 67Straightsix's esacpade into a V8 bellpattern C4 on his US 200.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=74307

Image

Guess what Aussies, Argentianians and Kiwis then did?

Answer? Weird Sh!+ like clocking the engine or trans the required 5, 10, 12 or 18 degrees to avoid stuff.

Image

VA 3000, an Argentina Project Ford Falcon Tri Power with this "Sierra Lima" package,
Image

Image


Nothing to tilt the engine or trans 5 to 10 degrees in either plane.


I did a 25 degree tilt to fit an FMX low mount 6 bolt to my cross flow Falcon engine, as I was planning an underhood Wade RO30 or 4/71 OR 6/71 blower. That's basically how Chrysler did the old 170/196/225 slant sixes.


Some people even do both.

How do you think the F bodies got the T5 in there.

Eventually, the boys at Flint cottoned on to it....


18 degree counter clockwise "Clocking", Mike!

Image


Same with Lima 370/429/460 swaps with the AOD....TransAdapts brilliant 429 conversion...avoids cutting off the bellhousing....

https://www.transmissionadapters.com/fo ... nstall.htm

Image

/www.transmissionadapters.com/ford_429 install.htm wrote:This kit allows you to bolt an AOD/AODE or 4R70W transmission to 429/460 & 351M/400 series motors. In order to clear some of the bolt holes, we have rotated the transmission approximately 12 degrees clockwise. This is barely noticeable. We recommend using a deep pan and 4x4 filter to keep the sump in the trans fluid during hard right turns. If you don’t want to use the deep pan, just overfill the trans slightly.



But the amount of discussion...it beggars belief!

Aren't forums supposed to Foster innovation, and a "go foward" plan? I guess not...its looks like its all about foistering miss-information.


Its a sad thing is somebody goes away thniking its all too hard...

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thr ... od.646372/

Your problem with the 3.3 C3 to in line Four 2.0/2.3 and Cologne V6 2.8 C3/A4LD compatablity is the SAME problem that Deranged90 found....

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=76492&p=588915#p588915

Derangedfords90 wrote:..... Autozone here lists a few for under $100 with a core. A few of the bolt diameters for the 2.3 and 3.3 are listed the same under the part specifications, but you know parts stores, often the specs aren't indicative of the true design. I will probably have to pull the trans and measure the bolt diameter before I order.

Also I will have to get a centering bushing. .75 to1.375 doesn't sound terriblyall hard to find.


US 3.3 C4 converter because of that 132 ring gear is restricted when you try and bolt it to the 4 cyl and V6 C3/A4LD, and doesn't match.

There is no C3--->A4LD match in that 132 size. So its a custom on the i6 3.3 C3 flexplate.

Mike, you are the green fields conversion engineer on this one!

If you go to 135, 138, even the last Modular 5R55 5 speeds and the huge 164 teeth bells, no problem.

Again, having a 2.0 Sierra and 2.8 Scorpio A4LD to fit to a simple 5/16" steel plate with a 2-3/4 six bolt crank pilot with a 1-3/8" pilot hole was easy. The Cortina and Sierra Pinto crank adaptor is separate, so was the 2.8 Cologne. Slam, dunk if you convert the 200 bellhousing to a Pinto/EAO/lIMA 135 bell or Cologne 138, with the bolt on crank poilot your choice to fit the three kinds of shank.




What you have is this at the C3 converter end, with its too small, what, 9.125 or 9.100" four stud fitting and 1-3/8 shank pilot,

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And the need to fit the later 92 A4LD converter to it.

They were additionally multi shanked with 0.750" to 0.825" castle pilot, and the various 8.5 and 9.0 and 9.1 and 9.25 pitches with 3 or 4 studs is the issue, or single shanked with the uniform 0.825" pilot.

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I like the normal 1-3/8" pilot, but that varies between C3 application like it does with the small A4LD pilot.

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FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
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Re: A4LD trans to C3 bell mods

Post #42 by xctasy » Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:00 pm

I've had all of them apart before

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Not the US 3.3 C3, but I can tell you that the 3.3 C3's were same as 4 cyl Pinto/Cortina 2000 at the pump, only 1-3/8 spigot.

C3 US 3.3/200 in line six trans views; they were all 2300 style 74DT 7A 834 HD with 6 mm bolts.

You are right in just making the two BE series changes.

You have to open the bolt holes up to 8 mm on your 78 DT 7A834 AA,

BE style, as per 4LD19D and E
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That and the flexplate changes.


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C3 pump cover on the flexplate side, no different to yours or my C3 Pinto or the C3 2.3 and 2.8 Cologne I had.


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my C3 Pinto
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aod vs C3 2.3 and 2.8 Cologne V6
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C3 Pinto 2-3/4" 2000/2300 Crank pilot to suit the 0.750 vs the SBF/Australian 200/250 3" Crank Pilot

You wont need em, but I just used the longer 7/16 Caterpiller bolts for the 17 mm thick, spacers

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Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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