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T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

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blaze65
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T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #1 by blaze65 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:02 am

Did a T5 Swap on a 200. Salvaged 1352-114 T5. Went through all the gears out of car. Bought new 9" clutch and adapter from ModernDriveline,etc. Took a while to finally get the T5 into the car. With car turn off and without using the clutch I can go through all the gears. When running cannot get into gear. Seems like clutch is not engaging or the throwout bearing is not traveling deep enough to make the clutch engage. This is a 65 mustang with a 68 block. Still using mechanical linkage. Z bar set up is from either the original 65 or perhaps parts of the 68 block, don't know.

Clutch rod is a solid , non-adjustable rod. Looks like a rusty rod where the circle on the end was rewelded at somepoint.

Not sure why the clutch will not engage. Seems everything is in place. have adjusted the Z-bar nuts off the pedal as far as I can and still no engagement.

Wondering if it is worth buying an adjustable clutch rod for $15 and seeing if that gets be a couple more inches of travel ??

Any thoughts appreciated

Bill

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powerband
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #2 by powerband » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:35 am

Pic for forum would be helpful

When I swapped T5's into 61 and 63's , I had to alter the TO pushrod fulcrum point on the Z-Bar lower ear and add alittle length to pushrod for correcting TO geometry . This was with Toploader to T5 plate adapters on the 200's Toploader bellhouse not MDL setup.

have fun


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blaze65
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #3 by blaze65 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:29 pm

Going to try an adjustable clutch rod and see if it helps. If still an issue I think I’ll put a camera scope through the starter opening to see what i can see. Pics of current clutch rod attached

Bill

blaze65
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #4 by blaze65 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:37 pm

Pic of clutch rod

blaze65
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #5 by blaze65 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:44 pm

Working on Pics, thought I could just attach image. Will get some loaded

bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #6 by blaze65 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:43 pm


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bubba22349
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #7 by bubba22349 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:05 am

Pictures aren't loaded. Since your clutch isn't disengageping you will need a longer clutch Rod or a way to be able to adjust the lenght. Did you try any adjusting on the other end of the Z bar pivot hooked to the clutch pedal? :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am hunting for a cheap project car to build up. My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

blaze65
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #8 by blaze65 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:54 pm

Sorry about the pictures. Thought that url link would work.

Picked up an adjustable rod which should give me another 1 - 2 inches of travel. Did try the adjustment at the top where the z bar connects to the threaded rod. Felt like there was “some” clutch but not enough to disengage.

I torqued the clutch to 25lbs which I believe is ok. So don’t think that’s an issue.

Have talked to Modern Drive Line several times where I purchased the clutch. TheIt customer service is great by the way. Their thinking bell may be out of alignment causing an energized input shaft. I did not align the bell with a dial indicator but find it hard to think that’s the problem. I get pure alignment is best but have had the 3 speed in and out of the car several times with no issues.

I will dial indicate align if needed.

Last thing is I did not change or touch the input retainer. In one of my MDL calls they said it is ok. This is a used 1352-114 T5.

Going to try the longer rod and readjust. Will update with results.

Very very appreciative for this forum and all the help


Bill

blaze65
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #9 by blaze65 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:12 pm

Update **.

Apologies again for no pictures. Haven't figured that out yet.

Readjusted the Z-bar as it was very bent. Point where the Rod attached to the Zbar was almost directly in line the the Trans scattershield. Rod from that point to the Clutch fork was at almost a 37 degree + angle. Heated and straightened the z bar and that point of attachment is almost in line with point at the bottom of the fork but still no clutch. This is a 65 Ford with a 68 200 so don't know what pieces were used or bent originally.

Put a camera up to the fork opening and all looks normal. With Rod and return spring removed i can move the fork back and forth on the input shaft about 1 inch so seems Throwout is as is should be.

Clutch also does not feel right. Meaning normally there is pressure on the pedal as you press down and once at the point it releases the pressure lessens or decreases as you go to the floor. This is just hard pressure all the way to the floor

Also put a jack under the rear and started the car in neutral. Wheels do not spin as they should not. Moderndriveline suggested this to test for an energized input shaft. also no noises or grinding at all

Have the old 3 finger clutch and thinking about pulling the trans and trying the original clutch . Cannot get the car into any gear but can get a grind when trying reverse. This is a 1352-114 T5 and could be the reverse is not synchro'd. Wondering also if all the Synchros are shot .

Any thoughts / comments appreciated

Bill

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bubba22349
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #10 by bubba22349 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:51 pm

HI Bill, so without the pictures this will take a bit more time to figure it all out, I am wondering what some of the parts your working with and if everthing is compatible.

Example of a working Drop Box Link below compare it to your link next one..
https://uc503a89580d6b880b8bb5e3c80d.dl ... KSFQ/file#

Your Drop Box Link it dosen't look like it formatted correctly missing some data, since it just goes to a blank page.
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/87j42zgqafe8 ... K__J1mNEGa

Since your car is a 1965 the stock Clutch Z Bar should look like this one (see below link). This will be the best operation and fit for your car they are going to be body year spefic for best results. Does your Z Bar look like this one? http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/180504166 ... -l1000.jpg

You said you have a 1968 engine do you know what bell housing is being used on your engine? There could be a small pattern bell from the 1965 car or the bigger bell housing that was used on the 1968 engine? For a quick ID count the starter mounting bolts should be either two or three.

Do you know which flywheel you have a 8.5 or 9 inch? One is flat and the other is dished (sometimes called a dog dish flywheel).

Which type clutch I am assuming it's a Diafram type? Somtimes you can have too much travel to and the pressure plates finger will over center making the clutch feel soft.

Your 1352-114 T5 this a WC or World Class trans from a 1985 or 86 2.3L four cylinder engine this trans has gear ratios of 4.03, 2.37, 1.49, 1.1 and a .81 OD reverse is 3.76. These T5's have a slightly longer input shaft of 7.41 inches and a smaller OD of 0.59 so I know they require a different Pilot bearing then the V8 T5's which can use the 1967 up 3.03 bearing. Right now I can't think which bearing it is but will find out tomorrow. I think the adapter plate is maybe a little thicker than the V8 trans plate but I could be wrong on that. Did you tell Modern Driveline about this trans so that they gave you all the correct parts? :nod: :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am hunting for a cheap project car to build up. My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

blaze65
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #11 by blaze65 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:53 am

Many Thanks for the reply and communication. Still scratching my head and not sure what the issue is.

Sorry about the photo issue. Will try to figure that out. Not sure what is happening but when I click on the link you provided I get 404-error page. When I click on the dropbox link it takes me right to the photos in dropbox. So I am getting the reverse error. Maybe something to do with it being linked to my google account which is why I can see it. Will work on it.

The Z bar looks similar to the picture but not exact. I don't have a grease fitting on mine. Also the pin that holds the clutch fork is pointing towards the fender in the picture. Mine points towards the engine block. I heated it and bent mine back as it was REALLY crooked and it now looks 1000% better and more in line with the fork. The original clutch rod was also welded and the ring or top of the rod was tilted so that the rod was on an angle. So whatever was done to piece this 68 engine into the 65 they were trying to account for the misalignment by tweaking the zbar setup. Still may need a new bar at some point but bent it back and replaced rod with the adjustable type so at this point I think it is close. Even as is it should be giving me at least 'some' clutch.

The bell is a C7ZA-6394-A. 2 Bolt starter, 136 tooth flywheel, 9 inch clutch. Flat flywheel I believe. Did not know what a dog dish style was but in checking the web looks like they have a edge or step down that circles the perimeter of the flywheel and I don't have that.

Clutch is a diafram style. Also did replace the pilot bushing with the smaller diameter hole to accommodate the t5 input shaft. Discussed the 114 T5 with Moderndriveline and they sent me all the parts. Specifically grabbed this T5 off of facebook because of the gearing in the 114 as I have a 2.80 rear end and did not want to undertake swapping the rear gearing. To give MDL a shoutout again, their customer service is outstanding. Have talked to them probably 8 times. Only thing I have not done per their guidelines is to dial indicate the bell. I get it but this is not a race car and for where I am right now I would thing I would be getting some clutch even without that.

Clutch feels hard all the way to the floor. I have a little free play at the top( 1+ inches) but when the pressure starts it is just continually hard. I think it should feel like there is some pressure but then at the point the pressure plate releases the pressure subsides and then you get to the floor. This is just hard all the way down.

My game plan at this point is , Remove the Trans ( again) , Put the alignment tool back in place and try to simulate the clutch action with someone in the car while I watch it from under the car. ( all with no lift ). If that does not look normal will try to replace with the old 3 finger clutch and see what I get. If it does not look normal maybe a defective pressure plate ? (scratching head again)

Many thanks for the communication again. Very much appreciated

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bubba22349
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #12 by bubba22349 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:30 pm

Hi Bill, I haven't used drop box so don't know all the details off setting it up. Though because you can see your pictures when you click on your log in link I suspect that it's an access problem sometimes with other photo housing sites they can be set to privet or a closed group. Their maybe a way for it to be set to public viewing, or they may special links for sharing in forum uses.

Thank you for your really good descriptions of all the parts I understand most of what parts that were used on your car now. The 1965 cars stock would of had the 8.5 inch clutch and matching throughout bearing, with dog dish flywheel, plus the small pateren bell housings. That's excellent that the later larger 68 flat flywheel, 9 inch clutch and its matching 1967 up throughout bearing, with the big pateren bell housing, this is the best combo for a stock or performance built 200 six its my personal faveriote too. So I believe you were also given all the correct T5 conversion parts from Modern Drivline and yes they are a great company to work with. Their idea on the bell housing fit is a valid one and worth checking however I think this is a rare ocurance on Fords I have found this on GM small blocks before. I am sure because they do this as a speciality that they would see it more often then me. There are offset block to bell alignment dowels that can be used to correct these type problems.

I can't think of a good reason that they modded the Z Bar like that deviating from a proven working design. You may need to keep tweaking that Z Bar linkage a little more until you can get it lined up so it's near a straight on push of the clutch lever arm yet is only slightly angled to compensate for the arc of its movement this would give its maximum push length and best in ease of non binding opperation, referrer back to the above Z Bar picture and try to closely match that. The stock Z Bar link to clutch arm might even be the right length yet for ease of clutch adjustments I do like having it adjustable and would mod mine so they were adjustable so you are also good there. Do you have a return spring hooked up below on the clutch arm to the chassis?

The clutch / throughout bearing arm sounds like it's working correctly and the throughout bearing slides easily on the the T5's front bearing retainer. I assume that the T5 also turned freely and went into all the gears before it was installed into the car?

A few things to try before you disassemble it again. The Diafram clutch is the preferred unit for these T5 swaps and usally require quite a bit of less effort to operate them (it will be a little stiffer since its new right now) compared to a 3 finger B & B clutch unit. The only thing I can think of that can cause any trouble is if the clutch disk is installed backwards this was a huge problem with do it yourselfers in the past that usally now have for many years there has been a sticker installed that says flywheel side (shortest hub side to flywheel and longer hub towards the trans) so this is possable but not very likely. 3/4 to 1 1/2 inch of free travel is the correct specs so your in the ball park there. Do you have the clutch pedal return spring still installed up under the dash? With the Diafram clutches this pedal return spring should be removed it's a very heavy gauge spring that would add substantially to the pedal effort. Also as was said before these type clutches can be over centered you really should not need to go all the way to the floor to disengage the clutch when shifting, 1/3 to 2/3 of pedal travel should be all it takes to disengage the clutch disk for a clean shift.

The only other external thing I can think of that will cause increased clutch pedal effort would be worn out clutch pedal pivot bushings these are like a nylon bushing that are thin and it is a common thing for these to be worn compeatly out from being neglected especially after this many years, there is also a roller bearing conversion for them to make the pedal effort even easier. If after all the above things don't help then I would look at the Diafram pressure plate. Let me know what else you find out. Best of luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

I am hunting for a cheap project car to build up. My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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