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1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

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KirkRogers
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1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #1 by KirkRogers » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:33 pm

Hello everyone, I need some help. I have an inline 6 cylinder, 200 ci, with a T5, the transmission set up was purchased by Modern Drivetrain (Trans, clutch, pressure plate, and T/O bear). I had this set up when I purchased the truck 8 years ago. After 5 years and only 2,500 miles of clutch started to slip, I had a local shop remove and replace the clutch. They had a very hard time finding these parts, I saw 4-5 clutch kits and nothing matched. So they rebuilt the original stuff. It lasted 1,500 miles, 2 years, and started slipping again. So I called Modern Drivetrain and bought a very expensive setup, it took months to get. I took it to another shop and they were going to install it and they did it did not work, the clutch would not disengage. I called the owner and went over everything again, they also had 3-4 sets of clutch fond from the local parts stores, none of them looked the same, so we had the original stuff was rebuilt again. It lasted 6 months and it self destructed backing out of my driveway.

It is using the z bar original Ford 3 speed linkage.

I called an expert in this field and he does not want to do it. He says that the original 6 cylinder pressure plate clutch disc is a messed up set up and not any other options.

I wanted to have the T5 aluminum bell housing replaced with the new steel one and have a cable clutch set up done. I can not get enough reliable information to know which direction I should do. Please help me out.

Kirk Rogers

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bubba22349
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #2 by bubba22349 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:40 am

Welcome to the Ford Six forums Kirk, You posted your question in the wrong place so I moved it for you. Are you using the stock stepped (dog dish) flywheel with its 8 1/2 inch clutch? Any pictures of the parts your using would be helpful. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

vssman
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #3 by vssman » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:21 am

Welcome to the site.

As Bubba mentioned, additional info is needed and you’ve come to the right place. There’s 2 basic set ups to install a T5:
1. Stick with the stepped flywheel which uses a bit more ‘rare’ parts. Nothing wrong with it, just a bit more difficult to find parts, etc...
2. If your block is dual drilled for the larger bell housing, change over to a flat flywheel and use a standard 9” clutch.

I was able to change mine via option #2 and kept the Z bar but had to modify the pivot rod the runs from the Z bar to the fork. The stock position over flexed my diaphragm clutch - I.e. pushed the bearing in too far. After correcting that, everything worked well.

There’s a few on here with much more knowledge than me on this. Bubba and POWERBAND come to mind.
63 Falcon 'vert running a 68 200CID Tri carb and a few other goodies

KirkRogers
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #4 by KirkRogers » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:20 pm

Thank you. Yes, it is a dog dish flywheel, which was purchased from Modern Drivetrain. I had a lot of pictures but I can not find them now.

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bubba22349
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #5 by bubba22349 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:22 pm

Ok so with the dog dish flywheels they should measure a depth of no more than 1 inch from the surface of were the pressure plate bolts on and down to clutch disk surface. I am thinking that since your clutches arn't lasting very long that the flywheel has been cut a few to many times (measures at more than 1 inch depth) this wouldn't put as much presure on the clutch disk to flywheel surface.

As vssman posted above if your engine block happens to be a later model block with the duel bell housing pattern (check the blocks casting numbers) if it is then that opens up more possibility's. Were you could use the newer style larger bell housing together with the bigger 9 inch flat flywheel which would work better plus also uses easier to find parts. If not if you still wanted to go to cable clutch setup you should be able to do that even with your current bell housing & 8 1/2 inch flywheel. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

KirkRogers
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #6 by KirkRogers » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:52 pm

Thank you. The complete set up from Modern Drivetrain was a 9" clutch set up. New flywheel, new clutch disc., new pressure plate and TO bearing. Then it had a new problem just like another guy on the forum here, it would not go into gear when installed. So it was switched back to the orginial stuff rebuilt. That is when it was on the mechanics lift for 2-3 days because Modern Drivetrain wanted to research the issue. So I never checked the depth. I am only guessing that someone at the machine shop knows that 1" depth info.

I returned all the parts back to Modern Drivetrain (they were not polite or nice and charged more thna oall my relacement parts) and they bench tested it and they said it all way perfect. Well it would not disengage the clutch from the the T5!!!

The shop tried it back and forth for a day before stopping, everything installed correctly. I came over to double check it with them.

I am sure there is a reason why but it was never discovered on mine and I have read this guys thread her on the forum, it sounds so familiar to mine. I have been put the 3 fork pressure plate back together but the clutch disc malfunctions fast. It also starts to chatter and that pissed me off too.

A guy could get so much business traveling to all these T5 conversions setting them right and getting us going again.


Kirk

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bubba22349
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #7 by bubba22349 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:28 pm

:hmmm: the 9 inch type clutch unit without the larger flat flywheel isn't going to fit on the 8 1/2 dog dish flywheel or in its smaller bell housing. There just isn't any interchangeability of these major parts between the 8 1/2 inch flywheel, bell housing, and clutch unit and 9 inch flywheel, bell housing, or the clutch unit. I prefer to use the later 9 inch system over the 8 1/2 inch system if the later block is the duel bolt pattern type. Going to need to see some pictures of all the parts that you are trying to use togeather be able to unravel this or at least the bell housings casting part number. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

KirkRogers
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #8 by KirkRogers » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:26 pm

Found pictures. I am not sure this methods of dragging them onto the message section is a good enough method to work. I'll try one picture first it would not take 7 pictures at once.

KirkRogers
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #9 by KirkRogers » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:30 pm

I thought so it would not take one picture and display it. That is a shame it took a while to find these to show. It shows a problem, it is 31K is that need to be reduced?


Kirk

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bubba22349
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #10 by bubba22349 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:22 pm

I haven't used the drag and drop feature yet because have been using an I Pad for most of my posts, my collection of pictures are still on my old desk top computer or photobucket and they went to a pay service. The other way it can be done is to use one of the free Photo posting sites like drop box, and a few others than use the forum sharing link, that is how I have done it or with a click on link. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

KirkRogers
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #11 by KirkRogers » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:54 pm


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bubba22349
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #12 by bubba22349 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:45 am

Something wrong with the link no pictures are showing :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

KirkRogers
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #13 by KirkRogers » Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:57 am

Please e-mail me at 2055@charter.net and I will give you the pictures, I have tried Drop box, I have them on file there, I add files and it rejects them, I drag them into the commenst box it rejects them, I add attachments and it rejects them.

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bubba22349
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #14 by bubba22349 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:42 am

Ok email was sent :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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bubba22349
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #15 by bubba22349 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:57 am

So looking at the pictures all the parts are correct for an 8 1/2 inch dog dish flywheel, small bolt pattern bell housing, T5 adapter plate & throughout bearing, a 8 1/2 inch pressure plate, and clutch disk. Only other thing left is the flywheels step depth measurement. On the failed clutch was there any signs of slippage. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

KirkRogers
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #16 by KirkRogers » Sun Jul 19, 2020 4:58 pm

Thank you. Okay. I will see. Is there no other option to run a in line 6 with a bigger flywheel?

Moderndrive train has them for sale. I bought one and returned it. When that combo all new parts from Modern drivetrain was replaced the only thing that was not being replaced was the pilot being (needle bearing type) and the pivot fork and pivot point. All were cleaned and inspected for damage.


Kirk

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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #17 by bubba22349 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:34 pm

I must correct something from the discussions last night I was very tired so my apologies. In the pictures the flywheel looks to be a brand new Billet Flywheel so we can probally assume that it was machined correctly with the 1 inch step. This would still be better to verafy that it is. That would put the focus on the clutch if it was a new or a rebuilt unit if it's rebuilt. These rebuilds could have some older parts mainly the pressure plate thickness could machined down significantly under specs over their aprox. 54 to 60 years of life. If it was a new pressure plate than it should be to the factory spec. I don't understand why Modern Driveline isn't wanting to help you with the clutch problems they are supposed to offer free lifetime support. Was there a warntee on these parts of about 12,000 miles or 1 year?

I know that there were suppose to be at least 4 companies that were making brand new stock 8 1/2 inch clutch kits for the 1960 to 1966 years of Ford 144 & 170, & 1964 to 1966 200's. These are the Zoom MU-721163-1, the RhinoPac # 15132-05292860 & # 15132-07455300, Perfection Clutches @ 1 800-258-8312 option 4 was not able to find a part number listing so you would need to call, also Exedy Clutches are suppose to have a clutch kit I couldn't find a part number or catalog listing. In any case these are a stock applacation clutch kit and would need some customizing. The kit that Modern Driveline sells is a T5 conversion clutch, it probally uses one of the above stock type pressure plates, with a custom disk made up with a larger diameter center hub or from a different aplacation (the stock disk is 10 spline X 15/16 diameter).

There are also two Diafram pressure plates that a number of people have used with great results "Rick Wrench" was the first one known to try this experimental combo on his Falcon Wagon logging 100,000 trouble free miles before he needed to replace it. These would require machineing work to the upper flywheel mounting ring to install them and some clearance need for the wider pressure plate springs. To use these you would need to use a disk like you using now.

First one he used was the 1968 to 1994 Alfa Romeo 215 MM pressure plate from a 1750 or 2000 GTV, a 1750 or 2000 Spider flywheel depth is .875, this one lasted a 100,000.

Second one he used when it was time to replace first one was from a 1984 to 1986 Mercedes 190 E 215 MM Flywheel with a flywheel depth of .885, I think he's still running this unit last report it was at over 30,000 trouble free miles and that was many years back.

On running a larger clutch yes there are a couple of ways to do it. First one and easiest depends on the year block that you happen to have. if it's a latter duel pattern block then it's real easy to go up to the later model and larger bell housing, flywheel, and 9 inch clutch combo that would all bolt togeather, starter would need to change to the two bolt style too. If the block is drilled for this than you could use any of the stock Ford 1967 up bell housings or one of
Modern Drivlines custom steel larger bell housing.

Did you look for your blocks Casting / Design Numbers that are located on the passenger side of the short block? You can find more info on the small six block differences in a post I did about this here's the link.viewtopic.php?f=1&t=80022#p620235

If your blocks not than its still possible to use a custom block plate and convert to a SBF V8 6 bolt bell housing, custom drilled 157 tooth V8 flywheel that's zero balanced, that would then allow you to use a 10 inch size V8 clutch. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

KirkRogers
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #18 by KirkRogers » Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:10 am

Thank you. I am concerning my next move. I have found one of the clutch kit mentioned.

https://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1965/ ... h_kit.html

So is the idea that I should have is new parts are much better than rebuilt parts and will last longer?

I have a needle bearing pilot bearing, should I replace it with a brass bushing custom made to fit both the T5 and the inline six?

Should go further and buy a new flywheel too? Optional?


Kirk

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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #19 by mustang6 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:03 am

Kirk did you ever ID your engine or look at the back to see if it is a dual pattern block? If it is, then I would be going the 9" clutch route even if you need to acquire more parts to do it. Don't shy away because of troubles you and others have had, many of us have paired the 9" clutch with a T-5 with no problems at all.
Scott

68 Mustang 200 ci, Aussie 250-2V head, Dual Headers, Comp Cams 252H, DSII w/MSD 6AL, T-5, V8 suspension.

65 Ranchero 200 ci, late 170 head, Autolite 1101, 3.03 3 speed, Maverick 8" 4 lug rear with 3.55 gears.

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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #20 by bubba22349 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:38 am

KirkRogers wrote:Thank you. I am concerning my next move. I have found one of the clutch kit mentioned.

https://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1965/ ... h_kit.html

So is the idea that I should have is new parts are much better than rebuilt parts and will last longer?

I have a needle bearing pilot bearing, should I replace it with a brass bushing custom made to fit both the T5 and the inline six?

Should go further and buy a new flywheel too? Optional? Kirk


X2 I agree with mustang6's above post that going with the 9 inch bell, flywheel, and clutch is the superior way to go, if you have the capability then that's the way you should go. Sadly many of today's Tech's / Mechanics don't know all that much about these old Ford Six engines and the different years of parts that can fit or not. You need to find those block casting numbers on the passenger side of the short block to know this info. The Casting / Design Numbers as an example of a stock 1965 motor will look something like this C5DE-6015-A the other part of the story is the Date Code to further decode the true year of the block this looks like a small metal plate with a screw on each end it will have 3 or 4 numbers and a letter with that info you can get the exact day the block was cast at the Ford engine foundry. Here is a picture of what a block or head casting "Date Code" looks like. http://www.fordification.com/tech/image ... tecode.jpg

Yes absolutely a rebuilt clutch are not going to last as long! The pressure plate gets resurfaced reducing its thickness each time this reduces total height of the pressure plate clutch disk pack so the clapping force can be less add to that fact that these 8 1/2 inch clutch cores are as much as 55 to 60 years old.

The trouble with the above clutch kit is it has a stock 2.77 trans clutch disk so you will still need to get the T5 clutch conversion disk. I don't know what source Modern Driveline uses for their clutch kits. To know if there is a problem you would need to find out what the pressure plate and disk combo measures in height to be able to compare it to that new clutch kit above. Plus dose the M.D. Pressure plate have at least as much clamping force as a stock clutch? It should have more than stock for a performance applacation, I used to have my clutches custom built for my drag race Fords at McCloud's many years ago.

No your flywheel was a new Billet unit and that's the very best you can get. The most it could need is a light resurface as in your picture it still looked like new, just check its depth measurement is 1 inch.

If the needle pilot bearing is good there would be no reason to replace with so few of miles they also offer a little less friction over the bronze type bushings too.

From your descriptions and the pictures of the parts that were used, so only the clutch kit or the flywheels depth measurement are the items that can have any effect on the correct operation (not slipping) and the total lifespan of the clutch. I certainly understand why they choose to rebuild your old clutch since it's a custom T5 conversion clutch that can only be sourced from Modern Driveline so you can't find a replacement at any the local auto parts stores. That is also why it didn't last even as long as the first one. Assuming your not driving around riding the clutch pedal, then it all comes down to these clutch kits specs and its clamping force. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

KirkRogers
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #21 by KirkRogers » Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:50 am

Thank you so much for all you help!!!!! It has been a while and I am in the phase of finding someone to do this work for me. This is so helpful to be able to talk with others and get this help. Keep you post.

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bubba22349
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Re: 1965 Ford Ranchero T5 with clutch problems

Post #22 by bubba22349 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:57 am

Hi Kirk, was wondering how you have been doing on fixing your clutch problems. I and two other site members have asked you severial times in the above posts to find the block Casting / Design Numbers or look to see if you have a single or duel bolt pattern block. This is a vital first step to know what block you have and if you have any other parts options. Did you ever find them and if so what are they? Best of luck on your quest. :thumbup: :nod:

Here is a link to the differances on small Six Blocks too
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=80022
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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