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T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

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blaze65
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T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #1 by blaze65 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:02 am

Did a T5 Swap on a 200. Salvaged 1352-114 T5. Went through all the gears out of car. Bought new 9" clutch and adapter from ModernDriveline,etc. Took a while to finally get the T5 into the car. With car turn off and without using the clutch I can go through all the gears. When running cannot get into gear. Seems like clutch is not engaging or the throwout bearing is not traveling deep enough to make the clutch engage. This is a 65 mustang with a 68 block. Still using mechanical linkage. Z bar set up is from either the original 65 or perhaps parts of the 68 block, don't know.

Clutch rod is a solid , non-adjustable rod. Looks like a rusty rod where the circle on the end was rewelded at somepoint.

Not sure why the clutch will not engage. Seems everything is in place. have adjusted the Z-bar nuts off the pedal as far as I can and still no engagement.

Wondering if it is worth buying an adjustable clutch rod for $15 and seeing if that gets be a couple more inches of travel ??

Any thoughts appreciated

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #2 by powerband » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:35 am

Pic for forum would be helpful

When I swapped T5's into 61 and 63's , I had to alter the TO pushrod fulcrum point on the Z-Bar lower ear and add alittle length to pushrod for correcting TO geometry . This was with Toploader to T5 plate adapters on the 200's Toploader bellhouse not MDL setup.

have fun


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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #3 by blaze65 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:29 pm

Going to try an adjustable clutch rod and see if it helps. If still an issue I think I’ll put a camera scope through the starter opening to see what i can see. Pics of current clutch rod attached

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #4 by blaze65 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:37 pm

Pic of clutch rod

blaze65
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #5 by blaze65 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:44 pm

Working on Pics, thought I could just attach image. Will get some loaded

bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #6 by blaze65 » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:43 pm


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bubba22349
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #7 by bubba22349 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:05 am

Pictures aren't loaded. Since your clutch isn't disengageping you will need a longer clutch Rod or a way to be able to adjust the lenght. Did you try any adjusting on the other end of the Z bar pivot hooked to the clutch pedal? :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

blaze65
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #8 by blaze65 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:54 pm

Sorry about the pictures. Thought that url link would work.

Picked up an adjustable rod which should give me another 1 - 2 inches of travel. Did try the adjustment at the top where the z bar connects to the threaded rod. Felt like there was “some” clutch but not enough to disengage.

I torqued the clutch to 25lbs which I believe is ok. So don’t think that’s an issue.

Have talked to Modern Drive Line several times where I purchased the clutch. TheIt customer service is great by the way. Their thinking bell may be out of alignment causing an energized input shaft. I did not align the bell with a dial indicator but find it hard to think that’s the problem. I get pure alignment is best but have had the 3 speed in and out of the car several times with no issues.

I will dial indicate align if needed.

Last thing is I did not change or touch the input retainer. In one of my MDL calls they said it is ok. This is a used 1352-114 T5.

Going to try the longer rod and readjust. Will update with results.

Very very appreciative for this forum and all the help


Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #9 by blaze65 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:12 pm

Update **.

Apologies again for no pictures. Haven't figured that out yet.

Readjusted the Z-bar as it was very bent. Point where the Rod attached to the Zbar was almost directly in line the the Trans scattershield. Rod from that point to the Clutch fork was at almost a 37 degree + angle. Heated and straightened the z bar and that point of attachment is almost in line with point at the bottom of the fork but still no clutch. This is a 65 Ford with a 68 200 so don't know what pieces were used or bent originally.

Put a camera up to the fork opening and all looks normal. With Rod and return spring removed i can move the fork back and forth on the input shaft about 1 inch so seems Throwout is as is should be.

Clutch also does not feel right. Meaning normally there is pressure on the pedal as you press down and once at the point it releases the pressure lessens or decreases as you go to the floor. This is just hard pressure all the way to the floor

Also put a jack under the rear and started the car in neutral. Wheels do not spin as they should not. Moderndriveline suggested this to test for an energized input shaft. also no noises or grinding at all

Have the old 3 finger clutch and thinking about pulling the trans and trying the original clutch . Cannot get the car into any gear but can get a grind when trying reverse. This is a 1352-114 T5 and could be the reverse is not synchro'd. Wondering also if all the Synchros are shot .

Any thoughts / comments appreciated

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #10 by bubba22349 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:51 pm

HI Bill, so without the pictures this will take a bit more time to figure it all out, I am wondering what some of the parts your working with and if everthing is compatible.

Since your car is a 1965 the stock Clutch Z Bar should look like this one (see below link). This will be the best operation and fit for your car they are going to be body year spefic for best results. Does your Z Bar look like this one? http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/180504166 ... -l1000.jpg

You said you have a 1968 engine do you know what bell housing is being used on your engine? There could be a small pattern bell from the 1965 car or the bigger bell housing that was used on the 1968 engine? For a quick ID count the starter mounting bolts should be either two or three.

Do you know which flywheel you have a 8.5 or 9 inch? One is flat and the other is dished (sometimes called a dog dish flywheel).

Which type clutch I am assuming it's a Diafram type? Somtimes you can have too much travel to and the pressure plates finger will over center making the clutch feel soft.

Your 1352-114 T5 this a WC or World Class trans from a 1985 or 86 2.3L four cylinder engine this trans has gear ratios of 4.03, 2.37, 1.49, 1.1 and a .81 OD reverse is 3.76. These T5's have a slightly longer input shaft of 7.41 inches and a smaller OD of 0.59 so I know they require a different Pilot bearing then the V8 T5's which can use the 1967 up 3.03 bearing. Right now I can't think which bearing it is but will find out tomorrow. I think the adapter plate is maybe a little thicker than the V8 trans plate but I could be wrong on that. Did you tell Modern Driveline about this trans so that they gave you all the correct parts? :nod: :thumbup:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #11 by blaze65 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:53 am

Many Thanks for the reply and communication. Still scratching my head and not sure what the issue is.

Sorry about the photo issue. Will try to figure that out. Not sure what is happening but when I click on the link you provided I get 404-error page. When I click on the dropbox link it takes me right to the photos in dropbox. So I am getting the reverse error. Maybe something to do with it being linked to my google account which is why I can see it. Will work on it.

The Z bar looks similar to the picture but not exact. I don't have a grease fitting on mine. Also the pin that holds the clutch fork is pointing towards the fender in the picture. Mine points towards the engine block. I heated it and bent mine back as it was REALLY crooked and it now looks 1000% better and more in line with the fork. The original clutch rod was also welded and the ring or top of the rod was tilted so that the rod was on an angle. So whatever was done to piece this 68 engine into the 65 they were trying to account for the misalignment by tweaking the zbar setup. Still may need a new bar at some point but bent it back and replaced rod with the adjustable type so at this point I think it is close. Even as is it should be giving me at least 'some' clutch.

The bell is a C7ZA-6394-A. 2 Bolt starter, 136 tooth flywheel, 9 inch clutch. Flat flywheel I believe. Did not know what a dog dish style was but in checking the web looks like they have a edge or step down that circles the perimeter of the flywheel and I don't have that.

Clutch is a diafram style. Also did replace the pilot bushing with the smaller diameter hole to accommodate the t5 input shaft. Discussed the 114 T5 with Moderndriveline and they sent me all the parts. Specifically grabbed this T5 off of facebook because of the gearing in the 114 as I have a 2.80 rear end and did not want to undertake swapping the rear gearing. To give MDL a shoutout again, their customer service is outstanding. Have talked to them probably 8 times. Only thing I have not done per their guidelines is to dial indicate the bell. I get it but this is not a race car and for where I am right now I would thing I would be getting some clutch even without that.

Clutch feels hard all the way to the floor. I have a little free play at the top( 1+ inches) but when the pressure starts it is just continually hard. I think it should feel like there is some pressure but then at the point the pressure plate releases the pressure subsides and then you get to the floor. This is just hard all the way down.

My game plan at this point is , Remove the Trans ( again) , Put the alignment tool back in place and try to simulate the clutch action with someone in the car while I watch it from under the car. ( all with no lift ). If that does not look normal will try to replace with the old 3 finger clutch and see what I get. If it does not look normal maybe a defective pressure plate ? (scratching head again)

Many thanks for the communication again. Very much appreciated

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #12 by bubba22349 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:30 pm

Hi Bill, I haven't used drop box so don't know all the details off setting it up. Though because you can see your pictures when you click on your log in link I suspect that it's an access problem sometimes with other photo housing sites they can be set to privet or a closed group. Their maybe a way for it to be set to public viewing, or they may special links for sharing in forum uses.

Thank you for your really good descriptions of all the parts I understand most of what parts that were used on your car now. The 1965 cars stock would of had the 8.5 inch clutch and matching throughout bearing, with dog dish flywheel, plus the small pateren bell housings. That's excellent that the later larger 68 flat flywheel, 9 inch clutch and its matching 1967 up throughout bearing, with the big pateren bell housing, this is the best combo for a stock or performance built 200 six its my personal faveriote too. So I believe you were also given all the correct T5 conversion parts from Modern Drivline and yes they are a great company to work with. Their idea on the bell housing fit is a valid one and worth checking however I think this is a rare ocurance on Fords I have found this on GM small blocks before. I am sure because they do this as a speciality that they would see it more often then me. There are offset block to bell alignment dowels that can be used to correct these type problems.

I can't think of a good reason that they modded the Z Bar like that deviating from a proven working design. You may need to keep tweaking that Z Bar linkage a little more until you can get it lined up so it's near a straight on push of the clutch lever arm yet is only slightly angled to compensate for the arc of its movement this would give its maximum push length and best in ease of non binding opperation, referrer back to the above Z Bar picture and try to closely match that. The stock Z Bar link to clutch arm might even be the right length yet for ease of clutch adjustments I do like having it adjustable and would mod mine so they were adjustable so you are also good there. Do you have a return spring hooked up below on the clutch arm to the chassis?

The clutch / throughout bearing arm sounds like it's working correctly and the throughout bearing slides easily on the the T5's front bearing retainer. I assume that the T5 also turned freely and went into all the gears before it was installed into the car?

A few things to try before you disassemble it again. The Diafram clutch is the preferred unit for these T5 swaps and usally require quite a bit of less effort to operate them (it will be a little stiffer since its new right now) compared to a 3 finger B & B clutch unit. The only thing I can think of that can cause any trouble is if the clutch disk is installed backwards this was a huge problem with do it yourselfers in the past that usally now have for many years there has been a sticker installed that says flywheel side (shortest hub side to flywheel and longer hub towards the trans) so this is possable but not very likely. 3/4 to 1 1/2 inch of free travel is the correct specs so your in the ball park there. Do you have the clutch pedal return spring still installed up under the dash? With the Diafram clutches this pedal return spring should be removed it's a very heavy gauge spring that would add substantially to the pedal effort. Also as was said before these type clutches can be over centered you really should not need to go all the way to the floor to disengage the clutch when shifting, 1/3 to 2/3 of pedal travel should be all it takes to disengage the clutch disk for a clean shift.

The only other external thing I can think of that will cause increased clutch pedal effort would be worn out clutch pedal pivot bushings these are like a nylon bushing that are thin and it is a common thing for these to be worn compeatly out from being neglected especially after this many years, there is also a roller bearing conversion for them to make the pedal effort even easier. If after all the above things don't help then I would look at the Diafram pressure plate. Let me know what else you find out. Best of luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #13 by blaze65 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:36 am


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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #14 by bubba22349 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 5:34 pm

Link requires permission to access it, I think it will be a working link. I did send a request for access. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

blaze65
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #15 by blaze65 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 11:00 pm

Trying pictures again. Changed the settings to remove restricted access. hope they work.

First picture is the old clutch rod showing the angle it was on in relation to the fork.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12EV2gW ... sp=sharing

This is a 65 car with a 68 block so I don't know what was used to put this all together. As mentioned clutch rod was on a slant from the equalizer to the fork and the bar looked like it had been bent / adjusted but I don't know why someone would need to twist or tweak the bar. I was thinking maybe being 68 block and 68's being wider than 65's that this was a 68 zbar but not sure. This equalizer bar has no hole in the bar for the other end of the clutch fork spring. So I think this is a 65 equalizer. Spring that had been in place went from the fork to a hole in the inner fender just behind the upper control arm. 200 block / equalizer bar has to be longer to accommodate the 6 cyl smaller size so again not sure why anyone would need to tweak it. I put a torch on it and bent it more in line with the fork.

Issue that created was in adjusting the bottom of the bar I should have allowed for how that changed the bars angles and should have adjusted the top. This is shown in the way adjusting bar coming from the firewall was bent when trying to work the clutch.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16R41Q5 ... sp=sharing

So took the bar back to the work bench and adjusted the top.

Third photo is how it is set now. This isn't permanent but everything is much more in line and looks to operate OK

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KGpLF- ... sp=sharing

Here is where things are at with the clutch / T5. I pulled the T5 back out with the intent of operating the clutch so I could watch what was happening inside the bell. ( had a neighbor in the car while I was under it ). Main issue was that the throwout bearing was not even close to the fingers of the diaphragm clutch. This was with everything mocked up. That is what led me down the path of the equalizer bar set up and the adjustments I mentioned.

The other puzzlement are the springs. This had a 14 inch plus spring on the clutch fork. Plus it still has the return spring under the dash. 14 inch spring is an original so 55 years old. I removed the bottom spring and put a temporary spring on the fork just to test. With all of the other bar adjustments I was able to get to a point where the throwout bearing was almost right against the fingers of the clutch.

Its a little hard to simulate actual clutch movement with no input shaft for the TO bearing to ride on but overall it looked better.

Plan from here is I will dial indicate the bell. Have come this far so might as well check that off the list. Have ordered a new 14 in spring for the bottom of the fork and I think removing the upper spring was suggested so will do that as well.

Going to put it all back together when I get the spring and will retest again without the T5 in.

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #16 by bubba22349 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:04 am

Pictures are working and they help me a lot, :wow: that Z Bar was really mangled up that's so crazy that they did that. As far as block differances there is very little and is no need to mod the Z Bar in that way. All 144, 170, and 200 blocks are the exact same external measurements in width. The way t,hat Z Bar is a major is cause in the hard pedal operation the geometry is way off. Is the other end of the Z Bar were the clutch pedal Rod still bent like it is in picture two? If it is it needs the twist at the top to be straightened out so that the pedal Rod is pushing it straight check my above picture of the 65 Z Bar for reference its compeatly straight (no angle to it) with the bottom were its welded to the tube. With it bent as in your second picture it would be making the rods push at an angle inducing flex and also causeing a bind were the Rod pivot is. As I stated in my above post the Z Bar is year and body spefic as an example the 1967 up Mustangs have a wider chassis so with a 200 engine the Z Bar would be wider to Compensate and fit. So if they didn't use the 1965 Z Bar in your car it would be made wrong to fit correctly. There might be some Ford numbers stamped on the Z Bar that would give a clue to its year.

On your Bottom picture looks like it's better but could still go over another inch or so it would be a straighter push on clutch arm. The return spring hooked up like that wouldn't do anything in keeping the throughout bearing in position usually the spring is mounted to the frame rail right behind the steering box or on a bracket near the steering box so that it doesn't interfere with clutch linkage movement. Then the clutch linkage is adjusted to position the throughout bearings postion for the 3/4 to 1 1/2 inch of free travel. See below link for a picture of diagram of the parts layout this is for the 1964 1/2 to 1966 Mustangs. Best of luck :thumbup: :nod:

Clutch Linkage Parts Diagram
https://www.allfordmustangs.com/attachm ... jpg.89101/
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #17 by powerband » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:01 am

The Pedal, Over center spring, Top pushbrod, Z-bar and Lower TO pushrod geometry are critical to pedal effort and the correct full pedal return.

As mentioned the Z-bars change with year and model . Early cars have adjustment on Top pedal rod, later cars do not.

Here's a Maverick Z bar modified for use in a '61 with 250 and the original 61 -200 Z bar for comparison.

Image

Image

the '63 with '71 Maverick 170, the 'Toploader' C7ZA bellhouse and original '63 Z-bar needed geometry adjustment for LESS pedal travel for full clutch engagement/release.
Image
Image

have fun
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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #18 by blaze65 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:55 pm

Many thanks again for the replies and help. Glad the pictures are starting to work.

Still not sure if this T5 is useable but agree with the thoughts that part of the issue here is one of geometry. Am going to replace the fork return spring with the longer style that will go from the base of the fork to the hole on the inner fender area up behind the upper control arm.

Overall the current bar looks 1000% percent better with the 'tweaking' I have done but honestly still stumped. This is / was the same Bell and fork used for the old 3.03 3 speed. 3 speed had no issues. Granted the clutch and throwout bearing are different but not understanding why the positioning of the bar and fork would have changed. Maybe the old 3 finger clutch didn't care that things were slightly out of whack.

Two questions if you know. Are new Z-bars available ? not immediately finding them anywhere. Also return spring under the dash, Is that OK to remove ?

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #19 by bubba22349 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:20 pm

HI Bill, not being there to examine the T5 I can't give an informed answer on if it's useable. While its out try turning the input shaft to see if it atleast turns freely, check that it shifts into each gear and that the out put shaft is also turning. Short of removing the top cover to visually inspect all the gears and other parts that's about all you can do until you can test drive it, unless you want to take it to a trusted transmission repair shop for an inspection and or rebuild.

:hmmm: To your question I would say just cause you were able use that modded Z Bar with the 3.03 trans and stock clutch dosen't mean it was working correctly, in my opion it certainly wasn't. Having drove and worked on an untold number of these early Ford manual trans cars I can say from experience that the way that Z Bar was bent on both arms when you got the car it would take a longer amount of pedal travel as well as more pedal effort when operating to release the clutch disk than it would with an Un Modded stock 65 Z Bar. Generally it's tough to beat the factory Enginering, you could easily prove all this if you wanted to by returning the Z Bar to completely factory stock geometry on both of the arms then reassemble with all the 3.03 parts and compare the difference of the clutch pedals opperation. I am sure that the work you have done to fix the Z Bar is already going to help on the clutch arm side it's close and won't take much more to return it to factory geometry. Have you did any straightening of the other end were the clutch pedal Rod attaches? This is the side that will make even more differance in smoother pedal operation.

Another thing that can be causeing more pedal effort between the two setups is how much of a difference there is in the Spring presure of the well used 3 finger versus the new Diafram pressure plate to release the disk? There isn't anything that you can do about that other than going back to the used 3 finger clutch again, but sooner or later you will need to replace the pressure plate at that time the pedal effort will go up again for awhile.

On question of if there are new Z Bars a avaible other than saying its a 1965 car with a 1968 engine I didn't see in any of the other posts which car model / body you have. That said I think there are some new Z Bars made for the Mustangs with V8's which would then need to to be modded again to fit in that case you might as well work with what you have now. There are probally some good used ones available for the six'es on eBay, some of our forum members might have one also you could post your parts needs in the wanted section at the bottom of all the forums, some of the Antque parts hoses may have some NOS parts, or you might try asking Modern Driveline. Yes you can remove the clutch pedal spring under the dash. Best of luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #20 by blaze65 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:57 pm

Want to say thanks again for the help and advice from all. When you're up against a problem and unsure what to do this forum is a great help.

Car itself is a 65 mustang convertible. Engine has been rebuilt .30 over and I have a lot add ons from Classic Inlines (and Mike I believe before his passing), stainless headers and exhaust, Intake milled with 2 barrel adapter, Motorcraft 2100, Electronic ignition. So much of what this car is came from this site and CI.

T5 is from an 86 mustang / thunderbird. Its a 4 cylinder WC T5 1352-114. Out of the car it goes into all the gears. Rear shaft turns , no noises or grinding and the front input shaft has no play in it. T5 came from facebook. Figured it was worth what it cost to at least give it a try. $$ spent on the MDL parts won't go to waste if I have to end up purchasing another T5.

Bell and clutch set up is as I received it. I have had to adjust the top of the z bar after altering / correcting the bottom. You could not all be more right that a lot of this is about geometry. Correcting the bottom pushed the top more out of whack making an adjustment to the top necessary. I think the bar could use a little more adjustment but overall I can work with it as is for now. Only new Z bars I am finding are for V8's and I believe the bar / tube itself is shorter on those as compared to the 200 six. So I would have to modify another bar anyway and what I have is close. will keep looking as well

Waiting for new spring. From there will reinstall and go at it again

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #21 by bubba22349 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:43 am

Hi Bill thank you for the pictures and detailed info sounds like some great mod's on your 65 Mustang Vert. bet it's already a fun driver! Plus it should be even more of a fun driver once you get the T5 installed and dialed in. I mentioned above that there was a low cost roller bearing kit for the clutch pedal to reduce the friction some. Here is the listing for it on Modern Driveline and one at Open Tracker also.

Roller Clutch Pedal Kit
https://www.moderndriveline.com/shop/pe ... 3-mustang/

Roller Clutch Pedal Kit with New Pivot Pin
https://opentrackerracing.com/product/r ... -mustangs/

This idea could also be used on the Z Bar too to reduce some more friction with some easy to do mod's. Open Tracker makes a kit that works for both the Six'es and V8' Z Bars. Here's the link for the info on the parts kits you could use to mod yours there are a couple different kits one for only the roller linkage, plus one with the Rollerized rods and ther parts to convert the Z Bar to Roller bearings this is the second link. Best of luck. :thumbup: :nod:

Roller Linkage Kit
https://opentrackerracing.com/product/c ... 1965-1966/

Compleate Kit for Roller Z Bar and Roller Linkage Rods
https://opentrackerracing.com/product/r ... 6-mustang/
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #22 by blaze65 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:47 pm

Thanks very much for the links. I will definitely check into those. Have worked on the Z bar in that I bought the rebuild kit for it. Old bushings were all dried out and rusted up inside the bar / tube. Clips holding the bushings in place were gone and it was basically just floating on what was left of the bushings. Cleaned it all out and put the new bushings , clips and felt washers in place with some wheel bearing grease. Looks much better. This bar does not have a grease fitting but I'm thinking about pulling the bar out again and putting one in place. Now that I see how it all goes together its hard to see why this would not have a grease fitting already.

Also tried to remove the upper clutch spring under the dash but not so easy trying to just push it off while under the dash. its a fairly heavy spring. Will have to pull the pedal out and do it on the bench and then reassemble.

Ordered and waiting on a dial indicator. Plan to be back under the car on Saturday

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #23 by bubba22349 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:59 am

Getting the Z Bar cleaned up and installing that new rebuild kit is going to help out quite a bit too soon you will have an easy operating clutch. I am not sure that any of the early model stock Z Bars had a grease fitting doesn't show them in the factory manuals, but it was a popular mod that's as easy as drilling and taping a hole for the grease zerk so you can lube it with out having to remove the Z Bar to do that. Replacement Z Bars usally had the grease zerks. Often the first time someone had to replace the bushings and install rebuild kit many people would go ahead drill and tap them to make it easier to keep them greased so the bushings last longer. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #24 by mustang6 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:18 am

Don't disagree with all the Zbar work you are doing, and I don't think this is causing your problem but don't lose sight of a comment made way up this chain- you have the wrong input shaft pilot bushing in there if you did not change it from the 3 speed bushing. Your T5 is from a 4 cyl and it uses a smaller ID bushing/bearing (NAPA 6202-2RSJ). Like I said, I don't think this is causing your problem (it may be contributing though) but when the day comes that you can drive this car you are going to have a very chattery clutch and you will destroy your transmission input shaft bearing very quickly driving it around like that.
Scott

68 Mustang 200 ci, Aussie 250-2V head, Dual Headers, Comp Cams 252H, DSII w/MSD 6AL, T-5, V8 suspension.

65 Ranchero 200 ci, late 170 head, Autolite 1101, 3.03 3 speed, Maverick 8" 4 lug rear with 3.55 gears.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #25 by wallen7 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:22 pm

Take both transmissions and measure the lenght of the input shaft from the case to the end , case to end of splines and case to end of bearing retainer. I suspect that T-5 is longer requiring an adapter spacer plate such as this https://www.cjponyparts.com/california- ... gJTvPD_BwE

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #26 by bubba22349 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:13 pm

Hi mustang6 & wallen7, The OP had received both the correct size pilot bushing / bearing plus the T5 adapter plate from Modern Driveline when he ordered all the T5 swap parts as he stated in his above post #11 see link.

viewtopic.php?f=76&t=81209#p632845

He also had everthing assembled in the car when he ran into his problem of hard clutch pedal operation and not being able to disengage the clutch. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #27 by mustang6 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:27 am

Thanks Bubba, I missed that, you are correct about the bearing.
Scott

68 Mustang 200 ci, Aussie 250-2V head, Dual Headers, Comp Cams 252H, DSII w/MSD 6AL, T-5, V8 suspension.

65 Ranchero 200 ci, late 170 head, Autolite 1101, 3.03 3 speed, Maverick 8" 4 lug rear with 3.55 gears.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #28 by xctasy » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:56 am

Its better to look outside the square a little. The T5 is a very good gearbox, but it needs help with the input shaft, and it must be looked after if its a Salvage item


Read the last page of this six page post from ZephyrEFI .


http://vb.foureyedpride.com/showthread. ... ents/page6


And Read Varliux's experiences.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=76396&p=588641#p588641
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #29 by blaze65 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:53 am

Thanks for all the info and support. Will be back under the car this morning and see if we can make any progress. Don't think I can remove the upper return spring under the dash without removing the pedals so will leave that for a later date.

One thing I have not mentioned and after seeing the posts referencing the input shaft is that the tip of the shaft does have some burrs in it. Pic attached

I assume the 86 car this came from had a some type of needle bearing and not a bushing. Assumption is at some point that failed causing two needles to create grooves in the tip of the input shaft ? Saying that as I have never seen a shaft with grooves in the end like this , at least not from what I can see on the web.

Not ideal but I Don't think this should be an issue as I have gone over the tip with emory paper and it should just be riding inside the bushing ??

Will be back later today / tonight with an update.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-I1epR ... sp=sharing

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #30 by blaze65 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:39 pm

Update

Put everything back together. Thought I had made progress as with the car running I was able to go through all forward gears but not Reverse BUT was doing this with everything except the drive shaft hooked up. Looking at it further and with the trans / shifter in neutral and with the car running got under the car and the spline coming off the back of the trans output shift is fully spinning. Not slowly as if was burning off speed but spinning. Even tried to grab the splines with my hand ( cautiously ) to see if it would slow down and it would not. I had never tested before when the driveshaft was not hooked up.

So in summary I don't anything was any different from previous tests and wondering now if I have just gone down a rabbit hole and the issue to all of this is that I have damaged trans ?

Trie also to push the clutch in as well and it still feels hard but the spline did not stop spinning ?? that would seem to be a different problem as it would seem the clutch was not disengaging causing the trans to spin. That aside and back to the first problem with the trans/shifter in neutral I would not expect to see the output spline spinning.

Going to find the keys to the liquor cabinet now

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #31 by bubba22349 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:07 pm

Hi Bill, sorry to hear your still having troubles. That T5 input shaft is severally worn and rough on the pilot end and it needs to be replaced or it will take out the pilot bearing in short order. Sounds like this trans was abused one thing that could be wrong is that the shifter forks are probably bent (common on trans'es that have been shifted hard / power shifted as there are no gear stops on the stock shifters) this would keep the gears from being located properly in neutral explaning why the trans keeps turning in netural. Have you pulled the top cover off and inspected all the internal parts yet? If everthing looks good the shifter forks can be fixed fairly easy as well as swapping out the input shaft with a new or better one, more than that you probably will be better off taking it in for repairs, rebuild, or replacement. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #32 by blaze65 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:24 pm

Starting to think the same. Part I don’t get is with the clutch pushed in the car should be in neutral , sort of , in that the clutch disk should be off the flywheel. But rear output spline still spins. That would mean trans aside the clutch is still not disengaging. Clutch is also still very hard to push to the floor. Just don’t think it should feel that way.

All said , I’m stump.

Considering putting the three finger clutch in just to see if there is any difference.

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #33 by bubba22349 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:40 pm

Yes putting in the three finger clutch would show if there's any problem with the Diafram clutch, and yes with the clutch pushed in the trans shouldn't be turning at all so the disk is still touching the spinning flywheel. After all the rebuilding of the the Z Bar and getting the correct return spring for the clutch arm did you recheck or adjust the free travel of the pedal again? One other thing you could try is raising the pivot point hole 1 inch on the Z Bar for the clutch Rod to throughout arm this would give you more thought out bearing travel, will probally make it a little harder to push though. On most my old cars I used the three finger clutches I like them and am used to how they work, however all the newer car have been using the diafram clutches for many years. My 1994 F150 (4.9 & 5 speed) had a Diafram in it also had had the hydraulic clutch pedal linkage which made it operate very easy, it worked okay though didn't seem to have the holding power of any of my earlier model trucks. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #34 by blaze65 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:38 pm

I think that’s my only recourse at this point is to try the old clutch. At least to see if I get anything different. I also agree the input shaft should get replaced but i think the worst it might do is to put a wear groove in the bushing. Not ideal but something to change down the road.

Will try that in AM and send an update.

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #35 by bubba22349 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:07 pm

Hi Bill there is one other thing you can try before swapping it all out, just try drilling one new hole on the Z Bar pivot arm raising the pivot point hole 1 inch towards the tube this would Increase the throughout bearing travel some more. That would a simple and fairly quick thing to try. Good luck :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #36 by blaze65 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:51 am

One other thing I wanted to mention. With everything hooked up and the car running. The transmission shifts through all 5 forward gears WITHOUT the clutch. This is with the engine running. Can just sit there and shift through all the gears. No grinding or problems. Reverse grinds but am sure that is because the internals are still spinning which causes the grinding trying to go to reverse.

Let me know what you think

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #37 by blaze65 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:58 am

Above post is with no drive shaft installed.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #38 by powerband » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:54 am

Let me know what you think

something is screwy , the possibles don't yet determine where - try big wrench/bar and foot on clutch TO arm to see how it feels up close, then pull tranny and bellhouse, inspect or pull FW and Pilot. Suspicious of the MDL BH dimensions, and 4cyl T5 many have swapped parts and the visible damage can be a clue.





with no DS, a running engine will usually spin the output shaft with the internal Pre-Load of the inp/outp bearing. In T5's older worn roller bearing T5may not spin the output. All Z-rated / 'Cobra' / current aftermarket T5's used improved pre-loaded 'pocket bearing' rather than straight rollers for the inp/outp bearing.

grinding in reverse was also corrected in later T5;s with a semi-syncro added.



have fun

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #39 by blaze65 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:21 pm

Thanks for the info and suggestions.

New update - Marked the end of the Fork Rod so that I could identify when I was near the end of its length as I moved the adjustable nut. Basically wanted to test every inch of travel I could test in the rod. Got back in car with it running. There is no free peddle as I would expect after that type of adjustment

Pushed the clutch to the floor, still 'very' hard peddle and still not shifting. 3/4 of the way to the floor it released to the floor and I thought maybe I was on to something but still no shifting.

Inspected and the 'give' I felt at the 3/4 mark was that the threaded clutch rod coming through the firewall was bent roughly 90 degrees straight down.

So I'm interpreting all of this as the pressure plate just not budging at all. If true that would be why the springs are not compressing, pressure plate is not pulling back, car will not shift, etc. If the pressure plate springs / diaphragm are not moving in the equalizer bar has to keep moving as the peddle goes to the floor and the point of least resistance / failure is the threaded rod where the z bar attaches.

The mystery goes on

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #40 by blaze65 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:35 pm

Follow up question to prior post I sent. Question, The pressure plate has only 6 bolts. It can only go on one one way correct ? Bolts thread easily no problems there, torqued to 25lbs. I just mated it up and put in the bolts.

Reread instructions from MDL ( clutch from them). It says if pins to not align clutch must be shouldered ? There were pins in what I received but I did not use them.

In short , anything here ? did I miss a step ?

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #41 by blaze65 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:17 pm

Post 3 - Not kidding about the bend to the upper clutch pedal adjusting rod

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mcCbEs ... sp=sharing

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #42 by bubba22349 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:20 pm

Pressure plate can go on in three different positions the six bolts are spaced the same for each pair of bolts, it doesn't mater on the position. If your flywheel was drilled for the alignment pins you should use them however the stock early flywheels that were originally used with the three finger pressure plates aren't drilled. Yes be Sure you are using the correct stock Ford type shouldered pressure plate bolts (or ARP's) so the pressure plate is centered correctly on flywheel if you don't have the flywheel pressure plate alinement pins.

:wow: that's why the clutch isn't releasing with that Rod bent that much it's not going to push or pull the Z Bar at all, time for a stronger Rod. I am now wondering if that Diafram pressure plate is just locked up tight and won't release?

If the input shaft of the trans is turning then you should be able to shift the trans through the gears without disengageing the clutch disk. X2 there could be some internal trans problems too. Do you know it's the input shaft is turning with engine running? You would be able to feel or hear the sound of it turning. :thumbup: :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #43 by blaze65 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:17 pm

That is what I am thinking as well. Pressure plate is just locked up. Bolts I used for the pressure plate are the ones that came with the clutch. I assume shouldered meads it is not threaded to the top of the bolt but has a unthreaded / shoulder section at the top by the head of the bolt. Is that what they mean by shouldered ?

Rod was bent only after trying to depress the clutch. I am literally having to push my back against the seat to depress the clutch. If the pressure plate is locked / not moving the point of least resistance was the rod and that is why if bent.

Calling Moderndriveline in the AM and will follow up tomorrow with their feedback.

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #44 by bubba22349 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:17 pm

Yes shouldered bolts is that under the heads is a larger diameter than the threads it also matches up to the holes machined in the flywheel.
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #45 by blaze65 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:57 pm

Perhaps some developments on my situation. Talked to Paul at Moderndriveline today. Very nice and very knowledgeable. His take / suggestion was that something is binding up. He suspected the input bearing retainer and or the throwout bearing. suggested I take it all apart and look for any galling or gouges on the retainer shaft. Took it apart tonight and attached the bell and fork to the T5 outside the car to simulate the movement of the fork and bearing.

The shaft definitely has some imperfections / galling on the retainer. Going to try and attached a short video below. If it works it shows that the bearing only goes so far and just stops / binds

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bxfiA5 ... sp=sharing

Not sure if I can try to file or emory paper the retainer to remove any imperfections. talking to MDL tomorrow and will see what they suggest.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #46 by bubba22349 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:45 am

Yes he's right the input shafts bearing retainer is made out of aluminum, it is common for them to wear enough to cause trouble with the throughout bearing being able to slide smoothly. No fixing it as it's already worn way under size on part of the OD and also galled. Would be better to just replace it with a new one, use one of the new and improved cast iron rebearing retainers so it will last. :nod:
A bad day Drag Racing is still better than a good day at work!

My Ex-Fleet of Sixes sadly these are all long gone! :bang: 1954 Customline 223 3 speed with O/D, 1963 Fairlane project drag car with BB6, 1977 Maverick 250 with C4, 1994 F-150 a 300 with 5 speed.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #47 by blaze65 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:23 pm

Yeah, looks like this is probably the main issue. MDL said I could sand and taper the bearing a little. Did that tonight and it does move a lot better now. Would like to find a new one to replace it but they don't seem easy to find.

Will keep looking

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #48 by blaze65 » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:25 pm

Update - Waiting on a new fork before reinstalling everything. Have sanded the input retainer and it no longer seems to hang up. Will put it back together and will post another update when done

Bill

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #49 by KirkRogers » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:09 am

I am watching this post. I have the exact same thing with a 3 fork pressure plate on my Ranchero, the clutch is only working withh this set up, I bought all my stuff from Modern Drivetrain too. I was stuck on a lift for 5 days before we rebuilt the original parts (which were bought with the T5 from Modern Drive train) and they lasted 3 months before coming apart. I went to the owner Bruce but he could help me as nothing worked.

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Re: T5 Swap Clutch won't engage

Post #50 by blaze65 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:25 pm

Getting back to my project and will try to install tomorrow. Received new fork from MDL. It is an inch or more shorter than what is in the car now. Talking to MDL the larger one is from a V8 and the shorter one they sent me is for a I6. Fulcrum point where they attach to the bell is the same but MDL said larger one should not be used with my bell. (listed in earlier post)

Believe part of problem is a mix of parts. Car is a 65 with a 68 block. 2 bolt starter 136 tooth flywheel 9 inch clutch. Not sure where the fork came from but MDL said it is a v8. Believe its code is C80A-7515-A. earlier posted video showed TO bearing was binding on the retainer shaft and I was never really getting the TO to the splines on the clutch.

Have sanded the aluminum shaft of the retainer with emory paper and it seems better. TO moves back and forth with no issues.

Fingers crossed.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VIZYz_ ... sp=sharing

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