8.5"/215mm pressure plate experiment

Moderator: Mod Squad

User avatar
rickwrench
Registered User
Posts: 727
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:30 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

8.5"/215mm pressure plate experiment

Post #1 by rickwrench » Tue Apr 27, 2004 2:25 pm

The stock rebuilt 8.5" pressure plate in the squire went *spung* on Saturday.
The three spring lever arms somehow grabbed the TO bearing and committed suicide. After a minute or two of horrible noises the TO bearing came loose and the clutch re-engaged. The spring arms, however, were toast, and the the clutch pedal simply became a noise making device.
I said a few choice words and drove home 8 or 9 miles clutchless. Not really so different from driving cars with non-synchro boxes, but still a PITA at stoplights (nuetral, kill ignition, stop, start in gear, etc.).
I dropped the T5 out later in the afternoon. It looks like the TO bearing pushed the levers against the clutch disk somehow, which were bent sideways and then grabbed the TO bearing, as there are score marks on the clutch disk itself (???). Could have been bad return springs, but it's likely my bad. Maybe too much pedal travel, poop.
The T5s input shaft bearing retainer looks fine, so I just need a new clutch, TO bearing, and pressure plate. Yeah, try to find a quality 8.5" rebuilt Ford P- plate.
Now the "experiment".
A few months ago I had the idea of using an Alfa 1750 or 2.0 Spider P- plate. They are 215mm (8.46"). The Alfa 215mm flywheels are recessed and look remarkably like a ford 8.5 flywheel. The Alfa flywheel recess is .12" - .13" shallower than my ford flywheel. I found a new Alfa/Sachs diaphragm sprung pressure plate for $80 in Berserkely, and I'm having the Ford flywheel rim turned down to match the Alfa's. Same clutch and TO bearing as before. Alfa used the same P- plate from 1969 - 1994, so it's not so hard to find. It does take some searching for the best price. I found the prices ranged from $270 (NAPA) down to $80, depending on the source. Most of the online Alfa parts houses sell the Sachs P- plate for $110 (US). I talked to Paul Spruell (Alfa Racer) about the holding capacity of the Alfa/Sachs P- plates. He said he didn't know at what power level they slip at, but slipping had never been a problem on Alfa racecars using stock P plates and performance clutch disks.
The T5 should be back in the car this weekend. Updates to follow. I'll post some pics (or links to pics) as well.
Rick(wrench)
'62 Falcon Wagons (x2), Kellison J5, V8 Alfa GTam, Corvair Corsa:
www.rickwrench.com

User avatar
rickwrench
Registered User
Posts: 727
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:30 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Post #2 by rickwrench » Sat May 01, 2004 10:05 pm

It works! It works great!
I finally had some time to finish it up today. I'm kicking myself now, because I didn't take any pictures. Here is the procedure, in a nut shell.
After you give up looking for a rebuilt 8.5" pressure plate, buy a 215mm Sachs pressure plate for a 1969-1994 alfa spyder 2.0. Take your flywheel in to be surfaced, and have the machinist turn an extra .15" off of the lip face (where the plate mounts) while he's at it. This makes up for the slightly shallower Alfa flywheel. That's pretty much it.
While everything was apart, I addressed another problem that's been bugging me since I swapped in the T5s.
The Falcon clutch/Z-bar geometry is all screwed up. I don't know if this is just on my two cars, or all of the manual sixes (?). The ratio of the Z-bar lever arm truly sucks. Pedal effort is pretty high compared to every other car I've ever driven. Like a working a damned nautilus machine when in heavy traffic. I looked at the cable conversions Mustang Steve sells, but I thought I'd try this one thing before going that route. Since the Sachs plate is a diaphragm style plate, it doesn't take much travel to disengage the clutch. With this in mind, I relocated the clutch fork push rod fulcrum pin about two inches up the Z-bar arm from it's original location. This gives me a TON more leverage against the clutch fork. I can still get a pic of this, come to think of it.
What a HUGE difference it made. I thought the clutch fork rod had fallen out at first. I got out checked, nope, everthing looked fine. So, I took it for a spin. Pedal effort seems to be about 1/4 of what it used to be. Judging by how much free travel there is after the clutch disengages, I think I could have moved the fulcrum point up even more than I did.
I'm going to call the experiment a quallified success for now. We'll see how it goes over the next few months.
Rick(wrench)
'62 Falcon Wagons (x2), Kellison J5, V8 Alfa GTam, Corvair Corsa:
www.rickwrench.com

MandarinaRacing
Registered User
Posts: 708
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 6:14 pm
Location: San Jose, Costa Rica
Contact:

Post #3 by MandarinaRacing » Sun May 02, 2004 12:05 am

Rick, that's cool. Finally someone tried it :wink:

Did you take any pics????

Alex
Mandarina Racing '65 Mustang six on juice!
ImageImage
Image

User avatar
rickwrench
Registered User
Posts: 727
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:30 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Post #4 by rickwrench » Sun May 02, 2004 2:15 am

No, I miserably failed to take pics. But the only real modification was to the flywheel. Everything else was essentially a straight clutch job.
I just went out and snapped a pic of the Z-bar modification. The only thing left to do is tack the bolt head to the Z-bar. And that's gonna mess up the paint...
Image
Rick(wrench)
'62 Falcon Wagons (x2), Kellison J5, V8 Alfa GTam, Corvair Corsa:
www.rickwrench.com

User avatar
xctasy
VIP Member
Posts: 6562
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2002 10:40 am
Location: PO Box 7072 Dunedin 9011,South Island, NEW ZEALAND
Contact:

Post #5 by xctasy » Sun May 02, 2004 5:29 am

Ah, bless Mr Alfa Romeo. As Henry Ford said, "everytime I see a Alfa go by, I tip my hat".

In your case, Rick, you can dip your Clutch!

Good work!

Incidently, in Aussie, Chrysler Valiant owners with manual 265 I6's are using Ferrari GT4 365 or Daytona pressure plates and clutches. They are very good quality, and not as expensive as loosing a couple of clutches. Some of the Lamborghini stuff is quite small diameter too, and is similar to other Fiat or Merceades stuff. I rember reading that in a 1980 Wheels article on finding alternative parts cheeply for exoitic Italiano machines.

Hope it bites like a hungry dog when you give the gas!
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

MandarinaRacing
Registered User
Posts: 708
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 6:14 pm
Location: San Jose, Costa Rica
Contact:

Post #6 by MandarinaRacing » Sun May 02, 2004 7:20 pm

Would it be too much to ask Mr. Alfa Romeo that the Spyder flywheel would also work in the early sixes ????? :( :( :( :(

Image'69 Spyder clutch combo

Alex
Mandarina Racing '65 Mustang six on juice!

ImageImage

Image

User avatar
rickwrench
Registered User
Posts: 727
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:30 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Post #7 by rickwrench » Sat Aug 07, 2004 7:17 pm

It's been 3 months and about 5000 miles :!: since the Alfa 215mm pressure plate swap. The car is a pleasure to drive now, and has become the daily driver to work everyday in heavy traffic, plus a bunch of weekend trips. No problems at all.

This set-up probably isn't the typical T5 swap. I just used some stuff I had on hand.

The driveline rundown:
8.5" flywheel, face milled/relieved for clutch spring clearance for use with GM T5 swap. Rim hieght cut down .15" to use Alfa P-plate.
'62 Econoline bellhousing.
Old Top-loader to Muncie adapter plate.
Z-bar clutch rod pivot relocated for better leverage.
14x1 spline 8.5" clutch from a 80's 4 cyl Jeep.
Alfa Romeo pressure plate from '69 - early 90's Spider or GTV.
Chevy S10 nwc T5 transmission (3.76, 2.18, 1.42, 1.0, 0.72).
All metal S10 T/O bearing with ford style fork spring/ spacer tigged onto the collar.
S10 yoke and cup welded onto slightly shortened stock driveshaft.
7.25 rear end 3.50/1.

Rick(wrench)
'62 Falcon Wagons (x2), Kellison J5, V8 Alfa GTam, Corvair Corsa:
www.rickwrench.com

144falcon61
Registered User
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:40 am

Re: 8.5"/215mm pressure plate experiment

Post #8 by 144falcon61 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:32 pm

I know this is an old post, but I am I new member and just come acrossed this . I'm new to falcons and have just bought my 61 4 door a couple months ago.. I'm looking at doing the t5 swap and wanted to ask richwrench a few questions about his experience with this swap.

144falcon61
Registered User
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:40 am

Re: 8.5"/215mm pressure plate experiment

Post #9 by 144falcon61 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:26 pm

I know this is an old post, but I am I new member and just come acrossed this . I'm new to falcons and have just bought my 61 4 door a couple months ago.. I'm looking at doing the t5 swap and wanted to ask richwrench a few questions about his experience with this swap.

User avatar
rocklord
Registered User
Posts: 1260
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:25 pm
Location: Hurricane, WV

Re: 8.5"/215mm pressure plate experiment

Post #10 by rocklord » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:25 pm

Go to his website http://www.rickwrench.com
He has a discussion about driving 90K-100K with the Alfa clutch, then replacing it with a Mercedes.
Dan

Currently Own
1965 Mustang, 200CID, 3Spd
1964 Corvair Coupe, 164CID, 140HP, 4Spd
1961 Corvair Lakewood wagon, 145CID, 80HP, 2Spd Powerglide Auto.
2017 BMW X3, 3.0L Dual Turbo, 300HP, 8-Spd Auto

User avatar
rickwrench
Registered User
Posts: 727
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:30 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: 8.5"/215mm pressure plate experiment

Post #11 by rickwrench » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:06 pm

144falcon61 wrote:I know this is an old post, but I am I new member and just come acrossed this . I'm new to falcons and have just bought my 61 4 door a couple months ago.. I'm looking at doing the t5 swap and wanted to ask richwrench a few questions about his experience with this swap.



Ask away.
My experience with this swap is that both the Alfa and Mercedes P-Plates are a -major- upgrade over the 3 finger plate, for very little extra work over a standard (complete) clutch job. There is some flywheel work, but you should have a 50+ year old flywheel surfaced anyway. The rim skim and spring pack relief cut can be done at the same time as the friction surface cut.
I put 100k+ on the Alfa plate, and about 30K on the Mercedes plate, so far.

Rick(wrench)
'62 Falcon Wagons (x2), Kellison J5, V8 Alfa GTam, Corvair Corsa:
www.rickwrench.com

144falcon61
Registered User
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:40 am

Re: 8.5"/215mm pressure plate experiment

Post #12 by 144falcon61 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:52 pm

Thank you for getting back with me Richwrench.. sorry about my slow response wasn't getting my notifications from the site . But anyway, i have read over your post about this both here and on your website a couple times . I have since bout the jeep input shaft since I'm using the s10 t5 as well and the appropriate clutch to match shaft spline, the benz pressure plate , 3 speed bell, and stock flywheel, adapter to be bought soon. But I do not know what pilot bearing to get ? On your site you said that you found one and cut it down but no mention as to what it ended up being for . Do you happen to remember. And is there anything else I may need to know as I get started with this project

User avatar
rickwrench
Registered User
Posts: 727
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:30 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: 8.5"/215mm pressure plate experiment

Post #13 by rickwrench » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:01 pm

144falcon61 wrote:But I do not know what pilot bearing to get ?


Dorman part # 690-023 has an ID of .592", which is correct for the S10 input shaft, and an OD of 1.381", just a bare smidge oversize for the I6 crankshaft pilot bushing pocket. Hmm... now would be a good time to check and make sure the pocket has been machine into end of the crankshaft.
The stock pilot bushing OD is 1.378". That's very close. It -may- fit as is.
If it is oversize and won't drive in, chuck the bushing up in a drill press, and then lightly hit the side with sandpaper (while it's spinning). This will zip off the 0.003" of extra material in just a couple seconds.
The 690-023 pilot bushing is thinner than the stock bushing by about an 1/8th of an inch, but it was primarily used on big block GM cars with no problems.

The throw-out bearing will be another issue. I modified an S10 throw-out bearing for use with the stock clutch fork, others have modified the clutch fork (which is a better way to go). If I were starting from scratch, I'd modify the clutch fork to work with the stock S10 throw-out bearing.

Also, if you're using an S10 T5, cut the bottom "fin" off. It sticks down too far. Other issues might be drive-line alignment. The T5 is bulky on top, and depending on the car's year, may not sit as high in the transmission tunnel as a stock transmission. Therefore, to keep the drive-line angles aligned, you may need to use some pinion angle shims on the spring pads.

Rick(wrench)
'62 Falcon Wagons (x2), Kellison J5, V8 Alfa GTam, Corvair Corsa:
www.rickwrench.com

144falcon61
Registered User
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:40 am

Re: 8.5"/215mm pressure plate experiment

Post #14 by 144falcon61 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:41 pm

I have a willwood hydraulic pedal and plan to us this with my t5 . Do you think something like this hydraulic throw out bearing would be ideal? Then there's no worries about modding throwout bearing or the fork
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
rickwrench
Registered User
Posts: 727
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:30 pm
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Contact:

Re: 8.5"/215mm pressure plate experiment

Post #15 by rickwrench » Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:34 pm

Howe HTB has a good rep.
McLeod's version, not so much. Or at least that was the case several years ago.

Rick(wrench)
'62 Falcon Wagons (x2), Kellison J5, V8 Alfa GTam, Corvair Corsa:
www.rickwrench.com

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests