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Fitting SB Ford/250/300 Transmissions behind small bell I6's

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xctasy
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Fitting SB Ford/250/300 Transmissions behind small bell I6's

Post #1 by xctasy » Fri Apr 18, 2003 9:14 am

Further to my OHC I6 post, ( http://fordsix.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4086&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight= ),

here is some info for any people thinking of hooking up either:-

PART A. A whole 1976-1993 Aussie X-flow or 1966-1976 200-250 (includes 1971-1974 2V 250) engine to their domestic ride. I am posting the dimensions for reference, and if you are building an adaptor, you do need to double check things. The only difference between Aussie and American sixes is the bolt spacings of the four bellhousing bolts.

PRAT B. a SBF transmission behind a small bell I6. That's a 144, 170, 188,200 or 221.


The reason for this is obvious. SBF or 240/250/300 I6 transmissions are stronger with bigger clutches, flexplates, flywheels and are able to cope with performance sixes much more easily.

PART A.Aussie 1966-on short and tall block log and x-flow 200/250 engines, and the 3.3/4.1 X-flow variants, have the following bellhousing pattern and flywheel details:-

These items have been coded with an 'X' so you guys can see where they sit in relation to the SBF/US 240/250/300 transmission pattern.

Image

Although its a little small, you can see there are two main ingreadients.
Image<<<<The crank spacer


Image<<<<And the transmission adaptor plate itself.

The pitch centre diameter of the four 3/4 inch head bolts on the back of the bellhousing is always 7.625 inches from the centre of the crankshaft. The bolts are arranged (clockwise from left as viewed by driver )

X1 is Bolt 1 275 degrees clockwise from vertical, 7 5/8 " outwards

X2 is Bolt 2 334 degrees clockwise from vertical, 7 5/8 " outwards

X3 is Bolt 3 22 degrees clockwise from vertical, 7 5/8 " outwards

X4 is Bolt 4 85 degrees clockwise from vertical, 7 5/8 " outwards

S1 the Starter is indexed at 56 degrees, and the driving gear is 6 7/8" outwards

XD1 is Dowel 1 at 281 degrees clockwise from vertical, 7 5/8 " outwards

XD2 is Dowel 2 at 16 degrees clockwise from vertical, 7 5/8 " outwards

The flywheel is often 13.385 inches in diameter, often with 160 teeth, and is started by a three bolt starter. The centre section is SBF, with around 3.622" flange diameter, 3.00 or 2.75 " inner pcd for the six bolts, a 1.75" annular ridge to centre the flywheel/flexplate and a 1.375" pilot bearing as per most SBF and all US 250's. But the US cars use 132, 136, 148, 157 or 164 teeth flexplate/flywheels. Most are Oz equiped with BW autos, not the better C4 trans option which had a different bellhousing to the US cars, but the same trans behind it. Toploader bellhousings were avalible from the factory 1972 TC Cortinas and early 1971 to 1972 XY/XA Falcons. Dellow Engineering or Castlemain Rods Shop stock a blank bellhousing if you cannot source one from Aussie.

Image

http://www.rodshop.com.au/bellhousings.htm.

T5's were also available, but are fairly rare. Never use a 3.3 5-speed behind a 4.1, they aren't T5's and will blow to pieces.

The automatic BW 35 and 40 transmissions are small, light and efficent when the kickdown is set up to factory spec, but very weak.

Image

Unless you import spares, don't bother running it. They are only three speeders, too. 4-speed autos were reserved for the OHC versions, which have yet another 5-bolt pattern which is still not SBF. :evil: darn Aussies, why didn't they copy the US Fords?


I have measured the FMX/ AOD and Top Loader transmission bell, and have come up with these specs, should anyone like to build a 5/8 to half inch adaptor plate to mount any SBF American trans to one. Includes any T5, Toploader, SROD, C6 or FMX, or AOD, or AOD-E, or C5 which came behind a Small block V8 or I6.

Image

The four bolts at the bottom are not important, as the transmission fixes to the inspection cover, not the bellhousing mounts.

The pitch centre diameter of the six 3/4 inch head bolts on the back of the bellhousing is generally 8.25 inches from the centre of the crankshaft, but some are smaller, equal or bigger than this dimension. The bolts are arranged (clockwise from left as viewed by driver )

Image

1 273 degrees clockwise from vertical, 8 1/4 " outwards

2 299 degrees clockwise from vertical, 7 7/8 " outwards

3 343 degrees clockwise from vertical, 8 3/4 " outwards

4 17 degrees clockwise from vertical, 8 3/4 " outwards

5 57 degrees clockwise from vertical, 7 7/8 " outwards

6 81 degrees clockwise from vertical, 7 7/8 " outwards

S2, the Starter is indexed at 106 degrees, and the driving gear is about 8" outwards

D1 Dowel one is at 290 degrees clockwise from vertical, 8 1/4 " outwards

D2 Dowel two is at 68 degrees clockwise from vertical, 7 3/4 " outwards

Other Notes:

For Aussie and American passenger cars and trucks with 351's, the FMX automatics ran a 164 tooth flexplate/flywheel, just like the US ones. Early Aussie and American Windsor V8's ran 157 teeth flexplate/flywheels. Unlike the American cars, Aussies killed off there local v8's in 1983. After the Aussie Ford V8 returned in Windsor form in 1991, it was back to a 160 tooth count flywheel for both OHC and V8's, and they wore a different 4-speed auto to the US ones. Totally different. The starter motors are on the left of the bellhousing as viewed from in-side the car. On V8's, bellow the crank centreline at 8 o'clock. On the OHC, above the crank centreline at 10 o'clock Scotch any chance of any easy bolt on US trans to an Aussie six. This means there is no easy way to ever make a four-speed auto Aussie X-flow or 2V 250:cry:

For manual transmissions, you can have 3, 4 or 5-speeds from light duty Borg-Warners to heavy duty Toploaders or non-World Class T5's, as there are bellhousing available for these from the factory. There are also aftermarket kits from Dellow or CRS in Australia which fit the Toyota 5 or 6 speed manual gearboxes.

You only run problems when you try to fit US bellhousings and transmissions to Aussie sixes.

US SBF /300 AOD's and FMX's shared a good deal of architecture with each other. The big bell housing 200 I6's (early 1980's), and all 250's used this type of 4 o'clock starter placement from the factory. As long as you remove the 28 or 50 ounce unbalance from V8 flywheel, you'll be able to bolt the US trans to the Aussie block with just an adaptor.

The AOD/FMX is designed to run with drive form a crank centre section which is SBF, 240, 250 or 300, Spec's are

1. A crank flange diameter of 3.622"
2. A crank bolt diameter for each of the six bolts of 3.00"
3. The anular ridge which retains the flexplate or flywheel is the standard 1.75 " shared with all six and 8 cylinder Fords.
4. A 1.375" pilot bearing as per most SBF and all 250's, no matter where they are made.

This contrasts with the post 1970 Aussie sixes (144-170-188-200-221) and all 144-200 US sixes which were (either 2.77, 3.03, big bell whatever)

1. A crank flange diameter of 3.300"
2. A crank bolt diameter for each of the six bolts of 2.75"
3. The anular ridge which retains the flexplate or flywheel is the standard 1.75 " shared with all six and 8 cylinder Fords.
4. A 1.375" pilot bearing as per all six and 8 cylinder Fords.

The 200 needs a redrilled flexplate or flywheel to fit the SBF/240/250/300 transmission to it.

Image<<<The 200 cube American engines, and pre 1970 Aussie 200's, have the smaller 2.75" bolt spacings

If you place a 0.375 to 0.625 inch adaptor on the bellhousing, you'll need to machine a spacer of the same depth to meet the further-away torque converter. The pilot must butt up to the torque converter as it would have on the vehicle you stole the trans from...

Image

As for Part B, the smaller American I6's bell housing bolt patterns vary from the 1960-1967 type, to the 1968-1981 type, to the last big-bell types. The 250 I6's are just a SBF/240/300 pattern. There are therefore four kinds.

As yet, no-one has co-ordinated these bolt patterns for disclosure on the Internet.
Last edited by xctasy on Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:20 am, edited 10 times in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Post #2 by xctasy » Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:24 am

Every Australian six since the 1966 log 170's to the last OHV 250/4.1 cross flows in 1992 utilities had the same four bolt bell housing. But it isn't the same as any of the US set ups. :cry: So the US C4 won't fit the Aussie block unless it is a the Aussie hybrid C4 trans.

The back of the block differs from the American one in only that respect. The Aussie engines came with optional C4 transmission, imported from the US, with a cast iron case-fill bell housing.

These Aussie bell housings will fit on any C4 with a case fill dip stick since these transmissions had a bell housing that unbolts.

You could import just the bell housing, but its better to get the whole flexplate/bellhousing transmission thing off a 1971 to 1980 Aussie 250/4.1 liter engine. This will fit the later cross-flows. Jack used an Aussie Toploader or T5 bellhousing to fit his T5 on. So it is possible.

Another option is to make up a steel adaptor plate for the SBFV8 / US250 / US300 C4 transmission. This is a very simple item that I've got the CNC co-ordinates of. If you want to, you can have a copy of the details, and have a machinist make one up. It also lets you use an AOD transmission.

Some other guys have been asking about this
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Post #3 by xctasy » Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:53 am

Okay people. Sorry this has taken an age. This goes out to my buddy Ecconoline-64, who asked me for set-up the details for an AOD transmission. This adaptor works for the World Class T5 on the 5.0, or the SROD 5.0 4-speed, or the 6-bolt bellhousings used for Top Loaders on 289-302-351's.



Set out data is:-

Image

CL to 1, 273 degrees, d=210mm, 8.268",x=0.4327", y=-8.2567"
CL to D1, 290 degrees,d=210mm, 8.268", x=2.8278",y=-7.7694"
CL to 2, 299 degrees,d=200mm,7.874",x=3.8174", y=-6.8868"
CL to 3, 343 degrees,d=223mm, 8.780", x=8.3964", y=-2.5670"
CL to 4, 17 degrees,d=223mm,8.780", x=8.3964", y=2.5670"
CL to 5, 58 degrees,d=200mm, 7.874", x=4.1726", y=6.6775"
CL to D2, 68 degrees,d=197mm, 7.756", x=2.9054", y=7.1912"
CL to 6, 81 degrees,d=200mm, 7.874", x=1.2318", y=7.7771"
CL to X1, 275 degrees, d=193.465mm,7.617", x=0.66387",y=-7.5880"
CL to XD1, 281 degrees, d=190.425mm,7.497",x=1.4305", y=-7.3593"
CL to X2, 334 degrees, d=193.675mm,7.625",x=6.8533", y=-3.34258"
CL to XD2, 16 degrees, d=191.725mm, 7.548", x=7.2556", y=2.0805"
CL to X3, 22 degrees, d=193.465mm, 7.617", x=7.06236", y=2.85338"
CL to X4, 85 degrees, d=193.465mm, 7.617",x=0.66389", y=7.58802"
CL to TP1, 271.5 degrees,d=225mm, 8.858", x=0.2319", y=-8.8550"
CL to TP2, 277 degrees,d=223.5mm, 8.799", x=1.0723", y=-8.7334"
CL to TP3, 279 degrees,d=217mm, 8.543", x=1.3364", y=-8.4378"
CL to TP4, 286.75 degrees,d=217mm,8.543", x=2.46206", y=-8.1805"
CL to TP5, 290.5 degrees,d=223.5mm,8.799", x=3.08148", y=-8.24178"
CL to TP6, 294 degrees,d=218mm, 8.583",x=3.4910", y=-7.8410"
CL to TP7, 303 degrees,d=215mm, 8.465",x=4.61037", y=-7.0993"
CL to TP8, 307 degrees,d=203mm, 7.992", x=4.8097", y=-6.3827"
CL to TP9, 336 degrees,d=216.5mm, 8.524", x=7.7871", y=-3.4670"
CL to TP10, 339.5 degrees, d=232mm,9.134", x=8.5556", y=-3.19879"
CL to TP11, 343 degrees,d=237mm, 9.331",x=8.9232", y=-2.7281"

CL to TP12, 16.5 degrees,d=237mm, 9.331",x=8.9467",y=2.65015"
CL to TP13, 21.5 degrees,d=227mm, 8.937", x=8.3151", y=3.2754"
CL to TP14, 23 degrees, d=216mm, 8.504", x=7.8280", y=3.3228"
CL to TP15, 49 degrees, d=199.5mm, 7.854", x=5.1527",y=5.9275"
CL to TP16, 53 degrees, d=210mm, 8.268", x=4.9758", y=6.6031"
CL to TP17, 59 degrees, d=213mm, 8.386", x=4.31911", y=7.1882"
CL to TP18, 69.5 degrees, d=209mm, 8.228", x=2.8815", y=7.7069"
CL to TP19, 75 degrees, d=207mm, 8.150", x=2.1094", y=7.8723"
CL to TP20, 83.5 degrees, d=216mm, 8.504", x=8.9627", y=8.4493"
CL to TP21, 90.75 degrees, d=207mm, 8.150", x=-0.10668",y=8.14930"
CL to TP22, 92.75 degrees, d=57.5mm, 2.264", x=-0.10862", y=2.26139"
CL to TP23, 80.5 degrees, d=47.5mm, 1.870", x=0.30864",y=1.84435"
CL to TP24, 280.5 degrees, d=47.5mm, 1.870",x=-0.34078",y=-1.8387"
CL to TP25, 268.25 degrees, d=57.5 mm, 2.264", x=-0.0691",y=-2.2629"
CL to TP26, 269.5 degrees, d=174.5mm, 6.870", x=-0.0600",y=-6.870"
CL to TP27, 265.5 degrees, d=196mm, 7.717", x=-0.6055", y=-7.6932"
CL to TP28, 265.5 degrees, d=204mm, 8.0315", x=-0.6301", y=-0.0067"
CL to TP29, 267 degrees, d=211 mm, 8.307", x=-0.4348", y=-0.29562"
CL to TP30, 269 degrees, d=222mm, 8.740",x=-0.1525", y= -8.7387"
Last edited by xctasy on Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Post #4 by xctasy » Fri Jan 16, 2004 5:39 am

ImageThis is the SBF FMX bellhousing showing 0.5" dowel spaces marked D1 to D2, and the 7/16"-14 UNC bolt holes for the 1 to 6 bolts which hold the transmission to the adaptor.


ImageThis is the AOD transmission. It is exactly the same as the SBF FMX or SBF C4 bellhousing in regard to stud spacing and starter location.

Image This is a manual bell housing to fit some breed of 4-speed trans. The adaptor allows an auto or manual to fit as Ford standarized on the one bell pattern. Good boys!

ImageThe 66- 93 OHV I6 Aussie block is not really different to the OHV American one, except for the dowel X1 and X2, and bolt patterns 1-4. Dowels are smaller than the SBF , US 300/240 and US 250 I6's at 3/8", and the bolts are still 7/16"-14 UNC. Crank flange is stock SBF with 1 3/8" pilot. This fits any 164 tooth AOD, FMX, or SBF C4 flexplate.


ImageA fleeting look at the Aussie Borg Warner 35 transmission bellhousing, with the bolt holes and dowel points noted. The high-mount starter, 160 teeth flexplate and odd bolt pitch is a real pain.

With a simple bell and crank adaptor, it is able to be turned into a US 250 work-alike.
Last edited by xctasy on Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

User avatar
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Posts: 6886
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Post #5 by xctasy » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:51 am

Update.

Image I had a luncHbreak in Te Anau, a tourist resort in the Southern Milford Sound area. Here is my high iron diet. The crank is a junked 250 item, the plate is the 16 mm adaptor plate, cut from the plan above.


Image This is me and my cardboard pattern. This is what the US spec gearbox/Transmission fits to.


Image The crank flange is quite a hard item to make from steel, so I just cut the item off the crank, and counter sink it so it mounts like an intermediate flywheel.

Very simple to do. The threads holding the 6 bolts just need to be reamed out to the same size as a stock Ford I6 or V8 manual flywheel size. This way, the 'forgien' Aussie crank fits to the American flexplate or flywheel without any concerns. In fact. this is how the Germans converted there little Cologne V6's to fit the C4 auto transmission used on the Mustangs, Capris and Pintos

Image Note. This is the Cologne 2.6 V6 verses 2.8 V6 adaptor. They are similar to, but not the same as, the one I decsribe here.

The cost of getting the plate cut was only about NZ 45 bucks, or US$31.50

Here is the invoice Image
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Post #6 by xctasy » Thu Apr 08, 2004 8:10 am

Image <<<<<Geek of the week. Its April 8, and Ecconoline-64 , I have only just got this plate machined up. Breach of contract, no, but, here's the pictures. They have yet to be taped out to the Ford X-flows Aussie bellhousing dimensions. If one was doing a SBF transmission and bellhousing swap, the same dimension plate is used, but needs to be drilled out to the American small bell housing pattern.

Image <<<<The back end of the cross-flow Falcon crank had about 16 mm of its butt cut off and reworked on a lathe. It's like a mini clutch which has a couple of interesting features. You must ream out the existing six bolt threads to allow the bolts to travel through without binding.

Image <<<<First off, it's the crank adaptor is the same width as the block adaptor plate when planed in a lathe.

Image <<<<<The back end has the same type of rebate as any 144-170-200-221-250. This is the standard 1.75" Ford anular spigot which ensures the crank adaptor or clutch or flexplate doesn't decide to try and do a 'UFO over Area 51' impersonation. Without this rebate, your gas foot is in danger off being cut off if the flywheel bolts break.

Image <<<<<Another view of the rebate or chamfer which locks into the crank flange.

Image <<<<<This crank flange adaptor mounts to the crank. Its just a very strong 'false datum' which allows the Aussie to US small block transmission to get funky without bits getting flunky. Longer bolts of a better than stock spec are needed to allow it to bolt on with the correct thread engagement.

Image <<<<<Another view of the two pieces of steel which make it fit. If one plate is thicker than the other, there will be a missmatch. On a manual transmission, not much of an issue, but critical for an auto. The starter motor must engage correctly, so your machinist must make both items the same width. These both ended up at 0.606 inches, or 15.4 mm thick. The bigger block adaptor started off as 16 mm plate, then got the bare minimum ( barely 12 thou!) shaved off both sides.

Image <<<<<<The mapping of the basic pattern gives you this. The basic shape of the 240/50/255/260/289/300/302/351/400 transmission governs the shape, and the crank adaptor is the same 3.622" diameter item with the 1.375" pilot that is still used today on the Modular V8'S and Essex V6's. Bolt spacings are 3". Nice to know Ford doesn't change a good thing!

Image <<<<There is a small hole drilled at the factory to index the crank. The new crank adaptor must fit the curved arc. Some 10mm adaptor plates use 6 small M6 countersunk screws to bolt the adaptor into the flange at the main seal. I don't do that as the adaptor is thick enough to prevent it chattering against the block.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

REDXd

Post #7 by REDXd » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:37 am

just a few questions relating to the adaptor plate...
I'm getting a 250 2v with the intention of running an aod behind it in an xy,
1/are there any problems with bellhousing to firewall clearance?
2/ is there any way you can email me a tech drawing of that cardboard template?
3/ does the starter motor mount up on the factory SBF bellhousing?
4/ how much does the complete adaptor wiegh and can you post me one (damn i'm slack! :roll: )
I know this isn't exactly a business venture for you, but i appreciate your help and would be willing to pay up to nz$200 for the plate (not the crank adaptor), just a thought...

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Post #8 by xctasy » Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:09 am

Q.1/are there any problems with bellhousing to firewall clearance?

A.1 No body clearance issues. The seams are well clear on any post 1963 Falcon. If you have an extractor/tube header exhast, it my need a bend to clear the starter. If you use the Nippon Denso pre-engaged starter that the Castlemain Rod shop uses for 351 C, it clears the stock Pery/Pacemaker/Genie extractors okay.

On a Cortina, it is difficult to fit the adaptor in without having the engine out, and the exhast has to clear the crossmember on the Aussie TE/TF's. I was going to fit it to a Cortina TE first, but the guy has extractors, and I don't want to bend a brand new set.

Q2/ is there any way you can email me a tech drawing of that cardboard template?

A.2. Not at present. The footprint dimensions are just the stock sandwhich plate with the bottom cut off. Once I have job no 1 off and packaged, I'll revise the basic drawing and have Harrie or someone do the CAD drawing. I've got some CNC co-ords to publish, once I've got it sorted.

Q.3/ does the starter motor mount up on the factory SBF bellhousing?

A.3. Starter bolts to the transmission case on an AOD, the bellhousing on a FMX, C4 or C5. On the Aussie engines after 1970, there is a flange on the Falcon block that may needs little grinding so starter fits snug, but all V8 starters bolt in the same position. A 302C/351C starter fits the AOD.

Q.4/ how much does the complete adaptor weigh and can you post me one (damn i'm slack!)I know this isn't exactly a business venture for you, but i appreciate your help and would be willing to pay up to nz$200 for the plate (not the crank adaptor), just a thought...


A.4 Still about 27 pounds all up for both pieces. :cry: I've been thinking of reducing the size...it could be profiled down and profile cut with large 4" holes if needed. The one for Ecconoline-64 is all there will be. My next adaptor will be connected to engines for export, not an export in itself.

My strongest suggestion is to contact


BMS Products
Contact: Steve Butchart
Tel:(+61 2) 9913 2469
Fax:(+61 2) 9913 9738
Mobile: 0414 654 327
Email: sales@bmsproducts.com.au

or

Rod Hattfield at CRS

Either one could make one up to this design. It'll be cheaper in the long-run to do it Australia.

(I did suggest to Steve that I would make some for him, but got no response. I guess he's too busy bolting AOD's to XR8's and Clevelands!)


I've been late about 5 months on this project, as I've only just got a car organised to bolt it up to. Ecconoline-64 has been a patient hero. He has prepayed, and still hasn't got his adaptor.

I gave him an itemised quote on costs, with zero profit. The plate is NZ45 bucks before the holes are tapped, another NZ50 bucks for facing it, and then a huge amount for air freight. To the US, its over 160 bucks NZ.

Soon, I'll have pictures of the swap into my XC Falcon, and tidy things up. My first job is to get it tidy so it works well for anyone. My sole reason for this is so I can either cruise or thrash the living daylights out of my engine without breaking anything.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

REDXd

Post #9 by REDXd » Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:13 am

cool, thanks for that x. i appreciate the time it must take each time one of us newbies has a million questions to ask! :roll: just one last thing, does the aod have a removable bellhousing like a C4 or is it part of the case like a C6? just wondering, thats all

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Post #10 by xctasy » Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:00 am

Kevin, and anyone else here, a few pointers for your info. Fords scrambling of parts may make it a bit of a headache to sift through the vast array of combinations, but there is a relief! It makes it possible to develope keys to unlock very cheap combinations which don't happen with Mopars or GM products.

The AOD has a totally integrated bellhousing, with no unbolting splitline. It's quite unlike the Borg Warner AS8-like Crusie-o-matic FMX, which has a cast iron bellhousing, and different to the C4, C5, and C6. It can take the 11.4375" spacing 164 flexplate found on most 300's, 302C, 351W, 351C and early 400's, and even the FMX or some bigger C4 torque converters found on those engines.

The basic AOD trans is a heavy, shallow shifting piece of trash, but its got very cheap upgrades with plenty of good quality pieces. The trans case is bullet proof, and the costs for kits that hack 700 hp+ are coming down all the time. The AOD's I've seen in Aussie 351 Falcons since the early 1997 have aften been fitted with a shift kit, and Megashifter. The Transgo type shift kits sort out most of the problems with the gearbox shifting up at 3800 rpm under wide open throttle...(the old FMX was programed for 5200 rpm upshifts, no wonder people complain that there V8 dies with an AOD!). A replacement 300G or 4340 steel inner shaft which locks up the coverter takes care of the rest. 5.0 aod Mustangs have a more aggressive 2.53:1 (2400 rpm) stall coverter, similar to the old XY GT auto boxes 2350 rpm factory item. The stock coverter is on 4.9, 5.0 and 5.8's is a 1.93:1 stall ratio, only about 1600 rpm, similar to the stock 302/351 C's 1650 rpm stall coverter used in most Aussie V8's.

The adaptor listed above with allow the BTR 95LE fit to the six cylinder engines. If the idea of a 165 pound AOD doesn't appeal, the lighter all electronic LE 95 used behind 5.0 EFI Falcons will fit using this kit. The starter is then on the left hand side, and you just have to use the EA II TPS and ignition sensor to get it running. The same for the stronger V8 T5 transmission. Six cylinder OHC transmissions don't fit the OHV 200-250 engines as the starter motor is nested where the cam sits.

Adaptors which convert the engine to suit SBF V8's are the way to go. You can then use good V8 transmissions with all the good bits, and forget about the hassles.

Ford ran similar axle combos on both sides of the Pacific. Fords US 7.25, 7.5 or 8" diffs were often quite low geared with 4:1 ratios common on Ecconolines, Rancheros, early Falcons, some Mavericks. In Australia, six cylinder 7.625 and 7.785" diffs were low geared, espeically Cortina 4-cyls. It's easy to find these so-called Demon diffs. Pintaras, Skylines, Commodores, Falcon utes, F100/150 Bronco 9 and 9.375" diffs sat in around the 4.11 to 3.5:1 bracket, and are adequate behind strong sixes.
Since there are many ratios for all four and six cylinder Ford diffs from the low 4:1's right to 3.5's, the over drive facility can turn a stock liability axle ratio into an asset!

There you go. A freebie for Ford freeks.
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
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Post #11 by xctasy » Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:45 pm

Just a follow up. I'm still updating the redundant links on this.
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XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Post #12 by CoupeBoy » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:34 pm

I was out looking around the internet (again) and stumbled across the following site
http://web.archive.org/web/20030315123436/www.mercurycapri.com/technical/trans/general/example.html

And the person who started that project (now defuct) followed a similar measure scheme as Dean. But what I am wondering is if this is more accurate or if it would be easier to replicate (without fancy equipment) if you were to mark the center point, then measure out the a first bolt then use measurements from the center and first bolt for placing the second, then the third, etc?

I guess I always thought it would be better to triangulate the bolts rather then hope my center angle finder (protractor) never moved. And it gives me a second thing to measure off of.

just a thought.
-ron

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Post #13 by ludwig » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:11 pm

Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Brain?
What's that, Pinky?
How will Xtacy ever take over the world from that island?


Did you change image hosts? I got the first pix and can't get the later set.
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Livin' the dream. Dad n' daughter.

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Post #14 by xctasy » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:11 am

Resistance is futile!

Nah, have to down size my images to suit Photobuckets format. I've got a good inventory. It'll just take a 'cupola days'
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Post #15 by MustangSix » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:17 am

In terms of manufacturing these, it would be a lot easier to setup a mill or CNC punch to do this type of work if the centerlines of each hole is described in terms of an X:Y coordinate from a baseline. Crank centerline could be 0:0 for example, the rest could be assigned a distance from there.

Anything above the centerline would be +Y, anything below would be -Y. Left of center is -X and right of center is +x. It eliminates the need to index an angle and a distance from a set center point.

PM sent.
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Re: Fitting SB Ford/250/300 Transmissions behind small bell I6's

Post #16 by xctasy » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:18 pm

xctasy wrote:Resistance is futile!

Nah, have to down size my images to suit Photobuckets format. I've got a good inventory. It'll just take a 'cupola days'



:hmmm:

Or 12-1/2 years. Since only CoupBoy, 67 Straightsix, or perhaps Cranfield or Stinger Performance (with the 5.0--> 2.3 Lima/EOA adaptor) took notice the first time

see viewtopic.php?f=76&t=74727&p=578922#p578922

Just bumping this up the list again.

I've been doing special adaptors for sixes a l-o-n-g time

Image

See CoupBoy and 67Straightsix's adaptors if you want to make a proper big V8 transmission to fit your killer high mount bell 200/250 or maybee a 300 slant six.

When adding, say, a custom canted valve 351 head to a 300 straight six, everything else looks kind of crooked. Tilting an in line six cylider engine is very easy to do with a plate block adaptor.


Image
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Fitting SBF Transmissions behind small bell i6

Post #17 by chad » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:27 am

umn, seems like this sez anything can B adapted to anything.
I am thinking abt an AOD to the early 200. Like it for the extra gear over the C4 but that would B nice too (sim. to the 1 it had Cruz0matic).
A 3 yr Heep (NV3550) to my 250 took $1000 in adapters but 1 of those was a 400$ x-fer case adapter & spud shaft. Worth it for the 5 speed (1 gear on top of the 3.03, 1 gear below - a real win). Econo did it w/the 250 but that's a SBF bell...
Shall I go over the above to find how to get the '65 200 & AOD together?

As a side note. I would B removing a T5 (I believe thats there now...he just said "manual 5 speed"). But I want to know even w/o this current swap request. (From my skim it appears U show some similarities, darn I'll hafta read the whole & do so w/attention to let my guy know).
Last edited by chad on Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Fitting SBF Transmissions behind small bell I6's

Post #18 by xctasy » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:05 pm

chad wrote:umn, seems like this sez anything can B adapted to anything.
I am thinking abt an AOD to the early 200. Like it for the extra gear over the C4 but that would B nice too (sim. to the 1 it had Cruz0matic).
A 3 yr Heep (NV3550) to my 250 took $1000 in adapters but 1 of those was a 400$ x-fer case adapter & spud shaft. Worth it for the 5 speed (1 gear on top of the 3.03, 1 gear below - a real win). Econo did it w/the 250 but that's a SBF bell...
Shall I go over the above to find how to get the '65 200 & AOD together?

As a side note. I would B removing a T5 (I believe thats there now...he just said "manual 5 speed"). But I want to know even w/o this current swap request...


Yes. Anything can be adaptoed to anything.

The low mount starter motor to High mount block adaptor requires a small amout of triming on the block casting. 67 Straightsix had to do this.

This can be avoided by clocking the adaptor, and since the transmission mount is normally different, you can eliminate any grinding on the block if you do it a certain way.

See viewtopic.php?f=76&t=4114&p=621877#p621877


CoupBoy

Image

and 67 Straightsix's adaptor works.

Image

67Straightsix wrote:I found a company in SoCal that makes custom aluminium flywheels. It showed up today and so far I'm very pleased. They added 1/4" to the overall height to compensate for the thickness of the adaptor plate, so no spacer is needed between the flywheel and crank. I had them leave the bolt holes blank - I'll drill those this week and then mount the flywheel to the engine :beer: I weighed my original flywheel and the new one - new one is 8lbs lighter! Thanks for all the input - very appreciated.

https://imageshack.com/i/pol5jnHqj
https://imageshack.com/i/poMVKOIQj

Here's a picture of my adaptor (can you spot what happens when I get in a hurry?)
https://imageshack.com/i/plt0mutWj



So does the Stinger/Cranfield adaptor

Image

Image

All the Fords that used the German design engines base from Cologne,
the US Limas,
Pinto EAO
and Cologne 2.3/2.6/2.8/2.9/4.0 60 degree V6's,

These usually have a 17 mm spacer to suit whatever US or Mexican or French or German transmission they got.

17mm Longer 7/16 Ford bolts are used, which Caterpiller makes as well.


Image


Below are some Ford crank pilot adaptors .

The smaller one to the left is the 2300 Pinto. The bigger one to the right is my 250 Falcon adaptor.

Image

The small 144/170/188/200/221 sixes use a 132 or 136 teeth flexplate or flywheel, with no crank pilot adaptor.
The low mount 1980-1983 200's used an automatic only 164 teeth flexplate, with no crank pilot adaptor. This is the 240/300/4.9 flexplate with a smaller 2-3/4" six bolt spacing, down from the stock 3 inch six bolt spacings.

For 144/170/188/200/221 small sixes, I make a 17 mm crank pilot that fits those.

Its the same thickness as the trasnsmission adaptor, so you can use the US 200 164 teeth flexplate, or the pre drilled or un drilled 157 or 164 teeth aftermaket manual flywheels of your choice.


Image

Image

Image


Image

Image
Last edited by xctasy on Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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SBF Transmissions (AOD) behind small bell i6

Post #19 by chad » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:16 pm

Oh, man, that's so much easier. Thanks for the extra work.

No matter what - there's plenty ahead for us (manny to auto). Gotta do some wrk B4 we do some wrk (this type - i6 research, design - always falls on my shoulders, but that's the easy prt).aaahahahaaa !!!

not sure how coupboy's bolt heads clear, but haven't seen the rig yet/it aint apart.

I guess 1/2 a 2 ft square outta 1/4 inch plate might do it?
A sorta 8 inch U or (in ur case) boomerang!
But the extra distance (the 1/4 plate) needs an additional fix for drivetrain to mate successfully?
I haven't even thought abt driveshaft length change...

I like 67straight6 as he has the counter sunk 8 hole/8 Vbolts sucker head (altho a manual transm).
Stinger/Canfield has that too but plate is thicker (5/8ths?) This way I can bolt frm opposite sides, screw around some...
Hope w/o the additional web-supported circle Stinger has I won't create a mess...
and that extra distance from that plate (adaptor thickness).

May B this adapter is there when the OP B4 our customer put in the T5 or whatever 5 speed they put in?
That would B a charm...(crap I don't even no yet if he has bench seat, buckets, column shift for auto, console....
Let U no if the job is taken on...
Thanks so much...
EDIT
Oh, OK there's some more...lemmie lookit ur edit...
other sideada worl must B abt ready 4 bed DeanO ?
This instant messagin thru ford6?
Thnx again!
OK, gotta find how available the flex plate (4got) and need/availability of crank adapter.
Gotta get it in for Bilo (the 5'2" PR shop owner) to figure the drive shaft, transm mount, cab mods, etc...
He will appreciate this fer ser (no puter/no puter knowledge - real ol skool!).
Last edited by chad on Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Fitting SB Ford/250/300 Transmissions behind small bell I6's

Post #20 by xctasy » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:25 pm

If you don't want to make a crank pilot adaptor, you just order a blank flywheel that allows you to alter the depth of the crank to flywheel dimensions. And the six bolt spacing.

Image


This is 67 Straightsix's
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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AOD to a '65 200

Post #21 by chad » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:35 pm

yeah, well, that'll pass some real costs onto the owner.
An option - any company names for the alu flywheel/flex plate?
gotta source a starter ring too it seems...
This helps, kouwell~
:idea:
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: AOD to a '65 200

Post #22 by xctasy » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:24 pm

chad wrote:yeah, well, that'll pass some real costs onto the owner.
An option - any company names for the alu flywheel/flex plate?
gotta source a starter ring too it seems...
This helps, kouwell~
:idea:


Its not like the 132/136 teeth Small Ford six flywheels, it comes with a 157 or 164 starter ring.

You need to grab a pen and read 67 Straightsix's posts. Talk with him.

67Straightsix wrote:Thanks for the your very informative answer and offer of the adapter plate. I'm going to try and get an undrilled flywheel and drill holes that match the 200. I have access to a CNC mill and plasma cutter, so making the adapter is not a big problem (it's only one more thing to add to my already long list of fabricated parts :roll: ) I'm mostly curious to hear if anyone has actually done this swap with a T5 and if there were any problems. I just got a transmission and bellhousing today... so I guess I'm moving forward with this.


67Straightsix wrote:I found a company in SoCal that makes custom aluminium flywheels. It showed up today and so far I'm very pleased. They added 1/4" to the overall height to compensate for the thickness of the adaptor plate, so no spacer is needed between the flywheel and crank. I had them leave the bolt holes blank - I'll drill those this week and then mount the flywheel to the engine :beer: I weighed my original flywheel and the new one - new one is 8lbs lighter! Thanks for all the input - very appreciated.



There are other companies that do the same thing.

Fidanza Performance (founded 1997)
T (440) 259-5656
Email: sales@fidanza.com
Tech: tech@fidanza.com
Fidanza Performance
4285 Main Street Perry, OH 44081
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Fitting SB Ford/250/300 Transmissions behind small bell I6's

Post #23 by chad » Sat Jul 27, 2019 8:43 pm

yeah, I started reading the thread in depth. I will take this info (look up the Fidanza FP for rough cost) to Bilo. We have a Bridgeport & I used to machine (laths, shapers, planers, vert. millers, etc) so we can do a lill. Stinger duz not seem ta B @ it any more so we will make the adapter if gettin the job. The 'crank extension' may B out so do what 67Straight6 did - pass costs on to a big company...
What's a big thing like that drive like in an auto...looks like a FW, he sez it weighs less.
:?:
( Hey X, just put a bid in ona 3.8L '86 4 eyed LTD wagon over on that site...
"Big thing is only make one change at a time. Change 2 or more things at a time it becomes difficult to figure which change helped or hurt" turbo2256b » 1/16/2017
Chad - '70 LUEB on '77 frame (i.e. PS, D44, trapezoidal BB 9", 4.11), 250, NV 3550 & DSII to B transplanted, "T" D20/PTO, 2" SL, 1" BL, 4 discs, 33"X15", tool boxes, etc. Seeking: Hydraulic gear motor for Koenig pto. chrlsful@aol.com (413) 259-1749

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Re: Fitting SB Ford/250/300 Transmissions behind small bell I6's

Post #24 by xctasy » Sat Jul 27, 2019 9:46 pm

:mrgreen: :thumbup:

Enjoy the info. Hope you catch the Fox....
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Fitting SB Ford/250/300 Transmissions behind small bell I6's

Post #25 by CoupeBoy » Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:06 pm

Dang, I've been away too long.
Deano, when did you start making those 170/200 crank adapters?
And how thick are they?

I also like the idea of having the flywheel thickened to compensate for the adapter plate thickness, should work great for a manual trans.

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Re: Fitting SB Ford/250/300 Transmissions behind small bell I6's

Post #26 by xctasy » Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:45 pm

CoupeBoy wrote:Dang, I've been away too long.
Deano, when did you start making those 170/200 crank adapters?
And how thick are they?

I also like the idea of having the flywheel thickened to compensate for the adapter plate thickness, should work great for a manual trans.


5/8 thick like the adaptor plate. Stock flywheel depth is 0.935 minimum with up to 1 inch possible.
Image
XEC Ltd ICBE's Inter Continental Ballistic Engines-
FAZER 6Bi (M112 & EEC5) or FAZER 6Ti (GT3582 & EEC5) 425 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
FAZER 6V0 3x2-BBL Holley 188 HP 3.3L/200 I-6 or 235 HP 4.1L/250 I-6
X-Flow Engine Components Ltd http://www.xecltd.info/?rd=10

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Re: Fitting SB Ford/250/300 Transmissions behind small bell I6's

Post #27 by CoupeBoy » Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:50 pm

The adapter plate I had made is only 1/4" thick. I've wondered if that is enough depth to have it slip over the end of the crank where the pilot bearing/bushing or torque converter snout fits, while still having a lip on the transmission side for the alignment of the new flywheel/flexplate/Tq converter.

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